Free State Wyoming Forum
Free State Wyoming (FSW) Promotional => Making the Case for Moving Toward Freedom (and Wyoming!) => Topic started by: 4n23vl on March 30, 2011, 08:07:21 PM
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hello there, been lurking from MD recently, and also following the writing of FerFal about how things played out in Argentina, (with some findings counterintuitive).
Some things he emphasized was the hardships faced by rural areas after the currency collapse, and how people moved into cities. See for example this post, with a link to situation in MT now.
http://ferfal.blogspot.com/2011/03/food-and-gas-prices-and-survival-of.html
Some questions I have:
What are the most important industries within the 3 'target' counties and how will they respond to hyperinflation?
What parts of WY stand to gain/boom from soaring fuel, precious metals and food prices? Which areas will become unlivable/difficult do to high fuel costs vs. low local wages?
According to FerFal, folks with relatively isolated houses, as in rural areas, were commonly raided by professional criminals who would watch for weaknesses and then take over the house and rape and pillage; even if one is well armed and trained, it may be impractical to keep ones guard successfully 24-7, year in and year out, after the collapse. It is thus preferable, from that perspective, to have multiple families sharing units in a building, or in houses close together -- some sort of defensible community living arrangement. Are FSW folk moving-in literally clustered next door to each other, perhaps in very close proximity to available services and planning for survival/defense at the community level?
Thanks,
Nick
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Interesting questions. Here's some personal views on some of them:
Few, if any companies in the US have any experience functioning in
inflationary environments. However, Wyoming's mineral commodities of coal, natural gas,
coalbed methane and crude oil would be naturally adaptive to price fluctuations.
There are trade-offs involved in any choice for a safe location. It's certainly no
place to impose a one-size-fits-all solution.
A small beater car with good gas mileage is probably a good little investment for
rising gas prices.
Terence
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The situation in MT is described " ... [she] loads her beat-up SUV with juice boxes, graham crackers and apple sauce she bought at Walmart for her 6-year-old daughter's birthday party. The 60-mile round trip she makes twice a week for groceries hits her wallet hard - the food stamps don't go far, gas prices are skyrocketing...."
So why is she buying graham crackers and juice boxes? Food staples would go a lot farther, and maybe she wouldn't have to make the trip twice a week!
But to Nick's point, I think small towns will prove more survivable in hard times than rural retreats (unless you're with a dozen or more of your friends). But in order to fit in to a small town, you should move ASAP if you aren't there already, and then get involved. Get to know the neighbors. Find out how you can help them, and you'll find out how they will help you.
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I think Ferfal makes a good case for the problems with isolated rural dwellings, but I'm not so sure about his enthusiasm for cities. I too think the small town is the ideal situation. I think he is one of the best sources of information for bad times, though.
One nice thing about small towns in states like Wyoming is that, despite being small, they are relatively complete and self-contained, except for the very smallest. This is because of the distance to neighboring towns. There do not appear to be any "bedroom communities" in Wyoming, which are common elsewhere, especially near large cities.
Wyoming business appears to be fairly inflation-proof, and Wyoming is often out of sync with the rest of the country, economically. However, when the overall economy sinks, fuel use shrinks also, so Wyoming coal exports won't necessarily keep up at the current rate. But I doubt the bottom will fall out as in some industries.
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... There do not appear to be any "bedroom communities" in Wyoming, which are common elsewhere, especially near large cities...
Sadly, Lingle is fitting that profile more & more each year.
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There do not appear to be any "bedroom communities" in Wyoming, which are common elsewhere, especially near large cities.
Actually that's what quite a bit of Laramie County is - bedroom communities for Cheyenne where there are plenty of good jobs with government agencies (county, state and federal) and suppliers to government. Cheyenne is Wyoming's small equivalent to Washington, DC - recession proof because nobody ever loses a job, and the jobs pay really well.
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Cheyenne is like DC in more ways than that. It is a HOLE!
It is also interesting to note than most of the goverment people live in areas that in other cities would be concidered upper class neighborhoods. I have never, not once rented a house to a goverment employee in Cheyenne. A normal house is beneath them....
If it is not on 5 acres, 4 bedroom with a 3 car garage they are just not interested.
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Here's a good Jack Spirko's podcast applicable to weighing the pros
and cons of remote vs. city bug out locations. (http://www.thesurvivalpodcast.com/episode-433-setting-up-a-bug-out-location)
Join me today as we discuss…
What is a bug out location and what is its purpose?
Why being to remote can back fire
The value of a line of sight neighbor
Interviewing neighbors before you buy
On remote land you have hide everything you can’t bring in with you
The one thing you never want at a BOL
Balancing the risks vs. the reward of neighbors
Wild life and wild plants
Permanent crops and blend them into the surroundings
The advantages of underground structures
The steel container (the good, bad and ugly)
Water on property is golden (even seasonal)
The RV and the Storage Facility not ideal but damn good
Guns, ammo, trapping gear and fishing equipment
Seeds, gardening supplies and fertilizer
Go with long term storage food for everything short of a few weeks
All in all I prefer a very small community to a isolated retreat
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Huh. When I passed through Cheyenne last fall I stopped to eat at a small diner that was recommended to me by a local coin dealer. I gave some Oath Keepers cards to some local Air Force members, and as I was leaving offered such to two obese plainclothes cops, at least one of whom had a "sheriff" hat. I asked if I could give him one (a push card and maybe a flier) and he gave an abrupt "No." Its the only time I've been turned down like that...
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I was looking for property a couple weeks ago driving around the state I found that food cost was 30% higher in Newcastle than here in Laramie while Torrington was about 10% higher and Cheyenne is about 15% lower for what it's worth.
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I was looking for property a couple weeks ago driving around the state I found that food cost was 30% higher in Newcastle than here in Laramie while Torrington was about 10% higher and Cheyenne is about 15% lower for what it's worth.
It's all relative. I wouldn't live in Laramie, or any city for that matter. Food prices CAN be higher here, especially if you can't get to the city. But when I did my calculations, the overall cost of living was lower than almost anywhere I would agree to live. Taxes are lower, for one thing, and that's always good. :)
And when the starving, screaming goblins come out of Denver (maybe even Cheyenne), looking for rape and pillage, it will be nice to be so far away...
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I wouldn't either hence the reason I am looking for property elsewhere.
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"And when the starving, screaming goblins come out of Denver (maybe even Cheyenne), looking for rape and pillage, it will be nice to be so far away..."
Being far away and isolated can also work to the advantage of the "goblins" in that they can, potentially, take their time to observe you, and invade when you are least expecting it and in creative, time-consuming ways. Will there be somebody at the house to keep watch 24-7? They will figure, rightly, that folks like us have fat larders that we can live alone far away and we will thus be tempting targets. If and when they can get through your security, you have no recourse and they can set up shop. This is what happened in Argentina, according to Ferfal, in the most brutal ways.
Also, are folks in Newcastle (& Hot Springs, and Rapid City) 100% prepared for hyperinflation? There may be plenty of desperate people even there, maybe more percentage-wise, depending on how the economy there is impacted. In Argentina, the collapse saw mass exodus from rural areas into cities. This is the case throughout the third world too, where people leave their fields and plots for urban shanty towns, seeking better economic opportunity.
So, you can't take for granted, that isolation will work to your advantage, it could be the reverse. So I am suggesting that FSW folks plan living arrangements accordingly. If you already have property that you are committed to, maybe you can add rooms or buildings, to accommodate other FSW members, such that you create a defensible micro community. In any event, a collapse will probably make things much more difficult in rural areas too.
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We have an entirely different situation here in the states than they did in Argentina. Most of the people who had moved from the countryside into the cities after the collapse had just years before moved from the city to the countryside using debt provided by the goverment. Their lands and farming operations were heavly leveraged and when the economy collapsed they had no choice but to leave.
The vast majority of the people in the countryside in Wyoming are fairly self sufficient and can handle an economic collapse and not have need to abandon their properties. There will of course be the few that are leveraged and will need to flee the banks but they are the minority.
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In times when I let my mind wander, I too can't help but imagine something of a JWR "Patriots" scenario including a co-located retreat group with 24/7 guard shifts. We (husband and I) are striving to be worthy of such a group, and have realized we have some work to do in terms of practical skill sets.
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"And when the starving, screaming goblins come out of Denver (maybe even Cheyenne), looking for rape and pillage, it will be nice to be so far away..."
Being far away and isolated can also work to the advantage of the "goblins" in that they can, potentially, take their time to observe you, and invade when you are least expecting it and in creative, time-consuming ways. Will there be somebody at the house to keep watch 24-7? They will figure, rightly, that folks like us have fat larders that we can live alone far away and we will thus be tempting targets. If and when they can get through your security, you have no recourse and they can set up shop. This is what happened in Argentina, according to Ferfal, in the most brutal ways.
Also, are folks in Newcastle (& Hot Springs, and Rapid City) 100% prepared for hyperinflation? There may be plenty of desperate people even there, maybe more percentage-wise, depending on how the economy there is impacted. In Argentina, the collapse saw mass exodus from rural areas into cities. This is the case throughout the third world too, where people leave their fields and plots for urban shanty towns, seeking better economic opportunity.
So, you can't take for granted, that isolation will work to your advantage, it could be the reverse. So I am suggesting that FSW folks plan living arrangements accordingly. If you already have property that you are committed to, maybe you can add rooms or buildings, to accommodate other FSW members, such that you create a defensible micro community. In any event, a collapse will probably make things much more difficult in rural areas too.
The goblins are gonna have fun walking 150-200 miles to get to some of these locations ;D
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Besides who wants to be trapped in a town with 10K students from the school including engineering students, AG students, and ROTC? OR 5K unemployed miners?
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Those are some of the reasons I would want to be at home when "the big one" (earthquake) hits Kalifornia.
Small town (1200 people), 120 miles from LA, close to USMC base Twentynine Palms, 10+ miles to nearest town across open desert, otherwise only one paved road runs through.
There is a steep, narrow, winding canyon between us and the nearest interstate.
If necessary, it wouldn't be too difficult to close down that road.
My place sits 1 mile back from the paved through road.
Beginning 2 neighbors to the north, it is 17 miles across open desert BLM land to the nearest private property.
A tough bugout, but a nice barrier.
Within 1/2 mile of me are:
at least 20 backhoes, tractors, etc. useful for clearing debris or erecting barricades - with associated fuel tanks,
at least 100 off road vehicles,
about 25 riding horses,
at least 20 private wells,
4 county wells,
LOTS of neighbors with backup power, radio communications, weapons & the will to fend off invaders.
A small group of us have made some plans for holding out in our neighborhood, and watching out for each other.
The biggest problem is that it is in Kalifornia.
No attempt to hijack the thread, just some of the things I've thought on the past decade.
Those are some of the things I intend to have around me where I go from now on out.
We are all on 5 acre lots here - close enough for shouting to work as communication with nearest neighbors, rapid response, overlapping fields of fire, etc.
I probably wouldn't recommend any more space between neighbors in a SHTF or TEOTWAKI scenario - just my 0.02 worth.
Take care,
nurseJT
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5 acres is too close. Very difficult to hold. You are better off in a housing tract. Even if you could hold it the gov would be there in no time from 29 plams and seize all your equipment and wells for of course the common good.
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Even if you could hold it the gov would be there in no time from 29 plams and seize all your equipment and wells for of course the common good.
Mebbe so, but ... who would they give the equipment and water to?
I'm thinking all the heavy equipment operators are going to be too busy working to shuttle equip to other areas.
Those other areas all have large construction firms/projects with equipment onsite.
Lots of gov't controlled water already in this and other areas.
Why bother with private wells 30 miles from nearest large population center - that has an existing large water supply infrastructure?
Keep in mind this is the largest county in the USA - 20,052.5 square miles - and I live in a fairly isolated corner.
Or maybe I am keeping alive an Oath Keeper illusion in regards to the USMC at Twentynine Palms ....
Take care,
nurseJT
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Why bother with private wells 30 miles from nearest large population center - that has an existing large water supply infrastructure?
Keep in mind this is the largest county in the USA - 20,052.5 square miles - and I live in a fairly isolated corner.
I know that area well, NurseJT. I used to fly all over that area on XC flights out of Van Nuys.
I always wondered. . . .how deep are those wells, out there? 600 Feet?
Just speculation, but I don't think people in L.A. (Or even Palm Springs) would think to flee to that area.
It's amazing how remote one can be over a short distance from a large population.
. . .Not that you wouldn't rather be in Wyoming . . .
Terence
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Even if you could hold it the gov would be there in no time from 29 plams and seize all your equipment and wells for of course the common good.
Mebbe so, but ... who would they give the equipment and water to?
My thought is that the recipient is not important to them, but taking the goods is. Even if the goods go into a warehouse, rot, and are then tossed into the ocean. It seems to me that one aspect of their tactics is (will be) to prevent people from being self-sufficient, even in small ways. And one way to increase loyalty and dependence on the government would be to seize all goods whenever possible. Or if seizing is not an option, then destroying them.
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And one way to increase loyalty and dependence on the government would be to seize all goods whenever possible. Or if seizing is not an option, then destroying them.
I know that's probably not how you meant it, but I'm wondering how taking and destroying things will increase loyalty... :) Sounds like a good reason to break out the .308 and ....
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Most of the disaster/war plans that Ive ever seen had "locate, Itemize and secure local resources" as one of the top 3 priorities of operation.
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I know that's probably not how you meant it, but I'm wondering how taking and destroying things will increase loyalty...
You are right. I did not mean true loyalty, but either the forced loyalty that tyrants crave or a kind of Stockholm syndrome loyalty.
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I know that area well, NurseJT. I used to fly all over that area on XC flights out of Van Nuys.
I always wondered. . . .how deep are those wells, out there? 600 Feet?
Just speculation, but I don't think people in L.A. (Or even Palm Springs) would think to flee to that area.
It's amazing how remote one can be over a short distance from a large population.
. . .Not that you wouldn't rather be in Wyoming . . .
Terence
A neighbor who headed the local water board for quite a few years told me water is only 140 feet down.
I haven't checked that against any other sources though.
Yep, around here we have miles and miles of nothing but miles and miles.
Like with radiation sources, distance is your friend when between you and a big city. ;)
Still planning on moving to Wyoming this summer.
Still hoping for that middle school nurse job in Cody.
Looks like finding a place to rent in Cody is going to be tough.
Take care,
nurseJT
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If you are a prepper with an isolated BOL I would recommend that you make preparations to receive company. Family, friends, and like minded folks that you meet with regularly and make friends with before TEOTWAWKI. Make space, and spend time with them to see if the group dynamics will work. You are going to have a tough time on your own. Prepare well, get several .308's or better. You need to be able shoot a long way in Wyoming. Better to get even longer shooters depending on your situ. 30-06s, .300mags, .338mags, .375/.408Cheytacs if you can afford it. a .50BMG if you can't. x54r Mosin Nagants (poor man's 30-06) can be had with sniper sights for $400, and Ammo is $225/1000. Post your land well. Make friends with your neighbors, get radios and use them with your neighbors. Make rabbit holes. Make Wolverine holes. Get night vision. Practice, Practice Practice. Think, Think, Think. When the Sh*t hits the fan you won't need gold or silver. Yer gonna need lead, veggies, and friends.
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In times when I let my mind wander, I too can't help but imagine something of a JWR "Patriots" scenario including a co-located retreat group with 24/7 guard shifts. We (husband and I) are striving to be worthy of such a group, and have realized we have some work to do in terms of practical skill sets.
Think *doubling up* with a neighbor family or fellow FSWers in your area, maybe augmented if you have family members who might make it to where you are.
Some of my *family members* are located pretty far-distant: California, Canada, and East of the Missippi. But they mighg make it if things get bad in their neighborhood and decide to scoot.
Or, they might not make it.
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One thing I do not see mentioned in this thread, although it may have been in some of the associated links (I have not had time to go through them all) is martial law. I am not a conspiracy theorist but I have observed history. During Katrina martial law was imposed, the national guard did go door to door doing searches and confiscating all weapons. In 2008 there were 2 divisions created to provide martial law/domestic service in the event of an "economic collapse". Those units become fully operational in early 2012 (not saying they will be deployed just saying that is when they will be operational).
With that in mind spreading out the national guard resources and these 2 divisions of US Army (20k soldiers) only the larger metro areas can be placed under martial law. It is possible to place check points at some major intersections in rural areas but largely rural areas will not have martial law, should it ever come to that. This can be a blessing and a curse in an urban area. During Katrina many were housed at the superdome arena but then the Red Cross was barred from providing food and water for fear even more would show up and toilets were literally the field as the stadium toilets were restricted and no portable toilets were provided (many news articles all say the same thing).
In a rural area this can keep the urbanites from spreading however it also means that resources will not be available for food drops, policing, etc. You will literally have to be self sufficient if the problem is large enough that martial law gets imposed.
Another thing I did not see mentioned was if you have resources do not advertise them. Generators make noise, while noise fades in the distance it still can carry quite a bit and can attract people like moths to the flame. Lights are visible from quite a distance, especially if you are the only one with lights. As I look down the valley where I currently live I can easily make out a traffic signal many miles away due to the fact that there are no other lights around it.
If you go into town avoid information leakage, do not say things like "we can always put that in the fridge" as it reveals that you have some method of refrigeration, often powered by electricity. At night it may be wise to draw the shutters to avoid lights inside from revealing that you have any electricity. If you speak by radio to others it may be wise to always have the same person speak and never reveal how many people you have as someone could be listening and documenting your numbers. Little things that infer your capabilities, weaknesses, or resources could be painting a target on you. This would of course be a worst case scenario, but if you are a prepper that is what you are preparing for.
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Roadblocks are constitutionaly illegal in Wyoming.
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Going door to door and doing searches without warrants are constitutionally illegal in New Orleans yet it happened. If there is martial law it will be with tanks, guys with guns, etc. This makes it harder to argue the constitution while it is happening. As I said this would be a worst case scenario, I also stated that rural areas would see far less of this than urban areas due to limited man power.
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New orleans isnt Wyoming.
A past Wyoming govenor was once asked why he didnt support a certain bill. His response was that He had to shop at wall mart too..
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You are right it is not, nor is Sampson Alabama where the military were patrolling the streets in 2009 WY, however I am unsure that WY would do an armed rebellion against a US Army deployment of tanks especially since doing so would likely endanger the very people he is sworn to protect. Even if they did, or if the US Army was ordered to leave WY alone that would still limit other cities populations. Salt Lake City for example may be placed under martial law, Denver may be. There are not that many larger cities that would have hoards leaving in all directions, some ending up in WY if essentials became scarce. I would also not count on it being limited to just 2 divisions of soldiers since insurrection or rebellion is grounds for the president (any president, this one, the next one the one after that) to order troops in and it could be that failure to institute martial law, and certainly an armed response to prevent martial law from being placed would be grounds for more troops. I do not think this is something that can be dismissed by merely stating it is not constitutional to do road blocks in the state.
My point is still valid though, there are 2 divisions of US Army soldiers tasked with martial law due to "civil unrest" in response to "economic collapse" (although I bet the reasons are not limited to that alone). Martial law has occurred in the US in the recent past so it is not like it would be unheard of for it to happen again. If it did happen it would give some protection to the rural people since they could not be placed under martial law effectively due to limited resources. The wandering bands of people looking for anything and everything they could possibly get would at least in part be contained limiting the numbers of groups looking to raid homes and small cities for food, water and other supplies.
If you are a prepper this should be one contingency that is not ignored. Being in a city means you could become trapped, being out of one could mean you are cut off from support like food drops and what not. Food travels an average of 1500 miles farm to dinner table in the US. Even if you are not importing food that means those who rely on the export for income would see a drop in their revenues, in their ability to buy the things they need. There are a lot of ramifications that occur even if it does not mean tanks on your particular street. Those could be good or bad depending on exactly where you are and what your supply lines are.
If you believe that martial law can never happen in WY then one way to look at this is to say that you have to stock up on anything you cant produce yourself, such as salt, toilet paper, toothpaste, etc. I think it likely to say that it can and probably will happen in at least some areas which could affect the transport of goods.
If you think it can occur you may want to look at developing a communications system free from the standard methods (internet, telephone, etc) as those can be shut down (look at the "internet kill switch" legislation which applies to "critical networks" and extends beyond the internet - that wont die and some version will eventually pass either by executive order or by legislation). That communication system can allow for people to give an early warning that it is coming so they can prepare in whatever way they think is appropriate for the potential house searches for weapons or other items as well as letting people know today is not a good day to go to town.
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You have obviously never been to Wyoming. :D
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Bret,
I must agree with Crappiewy. Who needs a food drop when you have enough groceries, toiletries and sundries for a couple of years. Most rural folks here are prepared for winter living. I go to town once a month to check the mail. If all commo went silent, that would be a good signal to break out the shortwave gear. Two divisions for civil unrest would be taxed to the limit of manpower trying to herd the sheeple in just a few large cities. To beat down a rural rebellion in the rockies would require a major military action on par with ops in Afghanistan. I do not put it past the regime, present or future to do this. But, this would be a flashpoint that would have very far reaching consequences.
Consider this...if it were your town, family, or friends attacked by us military forces, what would you do? We already have a posse commitatus Act forbidding this. Suspension of any part of the constitution and deployment of ANY ARMS in Wyoming would have disastrous results. For both sides.
pW
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"normalcy bias" strikes again. Those who want to get the point can read what I typed, those who want to ignore it are similarly free to do so.
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I have been thinking about this for a while now and think I discovered why my point was lost.
Who needs a food drop
I was not saying you should need one, I was saying that you should plan for not having one and if you see as I see a general movement towards gearing up for martial law by the feds (and some states) that you should also rely on imports/exports not happening. It is more than food as well as I indicated with the animal feed and diesel fuel for tractors it is also medicine and other items. Some you can stock up on, some you cant, some you will just run out of particularly medicines.
I was stating originally that martial law is something that could be done in the bigger cities which goes against something said in one of the original posts that no one seemed to comment on yet.
Consider this...if it were your town, family, or friends attacked by us military forces, what would you do? We already have a posse commitatus Act forbidding this. Suspension of any part of the constitution and deployment of ANY ARMS in Wyoming would have disastrous results. For both sides.
As for this, a lot of people in many countries - even this one, have said similar things. In many cases in ends with people just consenting. Take for example the repeal of the possee comitatus act under Bush (it was brought back a while later). This was hidden in a defense appropriations bill (I validated its repeal when people first started talking about this and it was really buried, even knowing it was there it took me a long time to finally find it, in an air force appropriations section if I recall correctly). I did not validate that what was brought back was the same version. Insurrection or rebellion is grounds for calling forth the militia (article I section 8 clause 14) and with modern interpretation of that phrase it is likely that it would not be the same militia that was originally intended.
The act itself http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/67/1385
Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.
That does not sound like the absolute preventative measure many make it seem. I also do not know what the patriot act did (an act of congress) in terms of allowing the military to operate if it is arbitrarily declared that domestic terrorism is all over the place (whether or not it really is since terrorism has no real definition its whatever some bureaucrat says it is on that particular day).
You also have things like:
http://www.fundamentalsoffreedom.com/fswforum/index.php?topic=8987.0
http://www.fundamentalsoffreedom.com/fswforum/index.php?topic=11986.0
http://westernfrontamerica.com/2011/09/10/federal-government-declares-war-nation/
http://www.fundamentalsoffreedom.com/fswforum/index.php?topic=7395.0
http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/senate-to-vote-on-legislation-that-allows-u-s-military-to-detain-americans-without-charge-or-trial_11252011
The list goes on and on and on. So to reiterate something I said earlier. If you believe that martial law cannot and will not be applied you still need to be prepared for the interruption in commerce. If you believe that martial law could be imposed then you should similarly plan accordingly. I also stated and I firmly believe that it would be constrained to the larger cities negating a stated fear early in this thread about people coming up from Denver for example.
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People dont comment to your story because is is just that. A story.
You dont know Wyoming or its people yet you make assumptions based on non facts.
The vast majority of people in Wyoming dont live in cities. Only about 20% do. The rest are farmers, ranchers or engineers of some sort. Food will not be a problem. They are used to being able to feed themselves for at least 6 months of winter.
We are not worried about the Feds sending troops because there is no reason for them to do so. There is nothing here that they would want. If there is a collapse the troops will be busy elsewhere.
Denver is a long ways from Cheyenne. Even so most people would go south. Not north. Most people in Denver envision Wyoming as a cold wastland. Not a place to go for food or shelter. Too many historic horror stories about people going north just to freeze to death.
Being a native Wyomingnite I can say that most natives are hardy people and for the most part dont like outsiders or people trying to change things. They dont like others trying to tell them what to do. Add them to the people who have been moving here in the last 15 years who are mainly people who are very dissatified with the politics at home and many have had problems with the police states that they came from and you have a pretty unwilling population. You cant control people who dont want to be controlled. This is not California.
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Being a native Wyomingnite I can say that most natives are hardy people and for the most part dont like outsiders or people trying to change things.
If you are not going to read what I typed I am not going to discuss it with you. You made several incorrect assumptions in your response, you used a condescending agreement which makes it sound like you are correcting me even though I said the same thing. You appear to be just looking to argue for the sake of arguing. That is not the WY people I remember and I hope you do not represent the atypical WY person, I hope it hasnt changed that much in the last 20 years.
That explains why you are actively trying to discourage me from participating in these forums. I represent change, I am not native. I get it I am not "one of you" therefore I deserve your disrespect, while I disagree with your actions I understand where you are coming from and why you have done that on multiple threads in response to anything I say here. I understand why you follow me around on these forums, not knowing anything about me but making incorrect comments based on your assumptions to put me down.
I do formally request that you stop doing that, that you stop following me thread to thread putting me down, that you do stop making assumptions to justify putting me down. You do a disservice to this forum to act the way you do, my experience in WY was that the people are generally friendly, respectful, not looking to fight just to fight, you are the opposite of those things and can cast a shadow on the population of the state if this forum is the first and only experience someone has with people from WY. Just because someone is not a native WY does not mean they are inferior to you so I request that you stop acting like it, at least towards me.
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:D
You read way too much SHTF fiction.
Anyhow. You arent going to find too much help in starting your Indian reservation. Most people here arent really much for joining anything. They are INDIVIDUALS. Not followers.
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it is clear that you are just trolling, you have some real problems you should address.
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Um, we have a rather low tolerance around here for personal slights. Just thought you'd like to know...
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it is clear that you are just trolling, you have some real problems you should address.
Who the hell is trolling, Bret?
I am here to network with MY NEIGHBORS in prosecuting liberty in MY HOME. I have read a LOT of posts here by well intentioned folks who have NO CLUE about life here. As to why your "point" was lost...you start out with the position that we are a bunch of deluded sheep.
We generally are intolerant of outsiders preaching to us about the way things are... elsewhere...and how we "should" be doing it.
pW
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you can be as intolerant as you want, I am not going to take your bait and get into an argument about this even when you invent things like the deluded sheep comment. You are an angry person for some reason over the fact that I addressed comments made before me in this thread. That is fine, I am not going to comment on this anymore.
As for who is trolling it is clear that it was to the post previous to mine, it is clear that it is over bringing up stuff from other threads into this one and mischaracterizing them in an attempt to start an argument is what I was referencing as trolling. Further the post I made previous to that indicated that there was the same activity going on in other threads, which is perhaps what caused the consolidation.
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you can be as intolerant as you want, I am not going to take your bait and get into an argument about this even when you invent things like the deluded sheep comment. You are an angry person for some reason over the fact that I addressed comments made before me in this thread. That is fine, I am not going to comment on this anymore.
As for who is trolling it is clear that it was to the post previous to mine, it is clear that it is over bringing up stuff from other threads into this one and mischaracterizing them in an attempt to start an argument is what I was referencing as trolling. Further the post I made previous to that indicated that there was the same activity going on in other threads, which is perhaps what caused the consolidation.
???
What makes you think that we are not prepared...... ?
This is Wyoming. Prepardness is a way of life. Just having your car break down in the middle of winter can mean your death.
Most people in Wyoming are more prepared than the most up dated prepers in a place like California.
And like I said before. Unless Yellowstone blows, No one is coming here. They never have and they never will. There are reasons for the 500,000 population count.
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What makes you think that we are not prepared...... ?
What makes you say that I think that? I never said it, I never implied it, I never inferred it.
I did talk about a disruption to the flow of goods, I did discuss how martial law could be beneficial because it keeps the hoards low (read the 11th comment on page 1 from Mamaliberty to get context on why I said that, it was a response). I specifically stated that rural areas could not be covered by martial law due to low resources.
You have been following me on this forum making comments towards me about how I am inferior and do not know anything and all that for a few days. In this thread you even brought up stuff from other threads just to provoke an argument. The whole thing about how I am looking for followers - no it is about opting out of state government, federal government (except 14 serious crimes), irs, federal reserve. I was quite clear that there is nothing to follow that the entire purpose is to have less government, through legal non-violent sanctioned means.
I dont know why you feel the need to make stuff up just to try to start some big argument.
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You have been following me on this forum making comments towards me about how I am inferior and do not know anything and all that for a few days. In this thread you even brought up stuff from other threads just to provoke an argument. The whole thing about how I am looking for followers - no it is about opting out of state government, federal government (except 14 serious crimes), irs, federal reserve. I was quite clear that there is nothing to follow that the entire purpose is to have less government, through legal non-violent sanctioned means.
Pardon the interruption in this exchange, but you mention 14 serious crimes... I cannot conceive of that many. May I ask for your list?
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sure. This is codified 18 USC § 1153 http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/usc_sec_18_00001153----000-.html
- murder
- manslaughter
- kidnapping
- maiming
- a felony under chapter 109A (aggravated sexual assault)
- incest
- assault with intent to commit murder
- assault with a dangerous weapon
- assault resulting in serious bodily injury (as defined in section 1365 of this title)
- an assault against an individual who has not attained the age of 16 years
- felony child abuse or neglect
- arson
- burglary
- robbery
- a felony under section 661 of this title (theft more than $1000 or "from the person of another" ie pickpocketing, purse snatching, etc)
And I guess I miscounted the list is 15. Maybe I combined two of the assaults when I counted before.
This is the list of laws that the FBI has jurisdiction over in "Indian country" any other law comes from the tribal government themselves. I do not envision many other laws, if any (one of the things that has to be discussed by the initial founders). I cant really think of any other laws that really need to be created.
In the case Standing Bear v United States (1995) it was deemed that other laws apply if they are "underlying felonies" of one of these laws. Specifically Standing Bear murdered someone with a gun, 18 USC 924(c)(1) applied "using a gun in a violent crime" and he got the 5 extra mandatory years on top of the murder sentence. The court reasoned that because it was an "underlying felony" it applied, had that not been the case it would not have (and there are tons of cases where the courts agree all the other laws do not apply). 18 USC 921 et seq is the federal firearms laws which the courts have affirmed do not generally apply and it requires one of these laws to be violated to allow them to apply to Indians on Indian land under the "underlying felony" logic (I think that is BS, the law doesnt apply and nothing but the courts says anything about "underlying felonies" granting jurisdiction).
I have no problem with that list of crimes, although I would prefer they be done locally and not federally. Again to clarify there is no enumerated requirement to be a tribal member, its up to the tribal government itself who gets in and who does not. Specifically there is no blood quantum requirement at all. A tribal member is a member of that particular tribe whose land it is, an indian of another tribe (per the courts) is like anyone else on that land. The courts ruled this way because customs and all may be different from tribe to tribe and only tribal members consented to be governed by that tribe. A tribal member is someone enrolled in that tribe, you may have ancestry to a particular tribe and not be a tribal member, you may live on the reservation and not be a member (70% of the Wind River reservation is not a member).
Keep in mind that this only applies to tribal members and not everyone.
Non-tribal member walks into a bar ... oh you heard this one? Ok so a non-tribal member goes onto indian country they fall into the surrounding state and federal law category, if they violate any of those they can be carted off. Non-members cannot be tried in a tribal court, they did not consent to their laws and the customs may be different. In a case of a non-member they are extradited off to the regular criminal justice system. Non-tribal members may also be ejected at will from tribal land, something states cannot even do (refusal to leave is a federal crime).
Non-tribal member is on indian country and a tribal member does something that is NOT one of these laws, the surrounding state and federal laws apply. If the tribal government prosecutes first the feds cannot (state laws are prosecuted federally). This is not double jeopardy exceptions this is a special law that creates this limit. The courts claim that double jeopardy is only be the same sovereign entity so the state and feds can prosecute you for the same act (although I havent seen that happen). It is special when it is an indian on indian country though.
Tribal members off their land have to follow all the laws everyone else does, which makes sense - if you ride a motorcycle and go from a helmet optional state to a helmet mandatory state you better have a helmet, same thing applies.
This all gets very complex when you mix tribal members and non tribal members. The feds have a 2.5 day jurisdiction/border course for law enforcement to cover all of this.
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For completeness I should add there are a ton of laws that deal with non-members interaction.
Remember these are all federal crimes:
It is illegal for a non-member to claim indian craft work when it is not
It is illegal for a non-member to forge the indian craft trademark logo thingy
It is illegal for a non-member to damage, remove or deface border signs and no hunting signs
It is illegal for a non-member to introduce alcohol to indian country unless the tribal government has passed an affirmative law allowing alcohol and that law is approved by the secretary of the interior - one requirement that law must comply with the state liquor laws, ie drinking age etc.
If a non-member steals, damages or destroys an individual tribal members property on indian country they must pay at least twice its value in restitution (if they cant the US Treasury pays its value but not double) providing the tribal members did not try to get revenge or go after the person
So its kinda a lop sided system but from the perspective of being on the member side it ends up being much more free unless the tribal government passes a ton of laws to micromanage the daily lives of the people (which many seem to do just that usually at the insistence of the tribal members).