Free State Wyoming Forum
Free State Wyoming (FSW) Promotional => Making the Case for Moving Toward Freedom (and Wyoming!) => Topic started by: Paul W. Allen on January 31, 2007, 08:26:20 PM
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I was just wondering why the mission thread thread was moved behind closed doors? Granted, I haven't paid the $25 or signed the SOI, but then again I already live here. I just hang out and offer advice when I can to people that really don't understand Wyoming in all its challenging glory. Why would this discussion be moved? I've been hanging around for a couple of months trying to figure out what twist was awaiting my beloved state and now it seems no better than the local school board moving into executive session to shield discussion. What a shame. I figure Boston would have learned more about how we really view things in Wyoming. We like to know who our neighbors are and where they stand. Upforth, open and honest. Pity. :(
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BTP NOTE:? That thread was not moved because it got "too heated", but because
it never should have been posted in the FSW Promotional board in the first place.
The matter of FSW Mission is solely one for FSWers, not the Forum public at large.
This is explained in greater depth further on in this thread, and at:
http://www.fundamentalsoffreedom.com/fswforum//index.php?topic=3118.0
I understand where other Forum access confusion comes from.?
It's because there are several? levels of access:
#1? several basic boards readable by all, including non-registered viewers (who are not "users" and thus cannot post).
#2? above, plus 98% of topics readable by registered users (except for FSW Member/Associate boards and admin stuff)
#3? above, plus FSW Associate boards (requires unsigned SofI)
#4? above, plus FSW Member boards (requires signed SofI)
#5? above, plus admin staff board
#6? above, plus our Forum Administrator's privileges (no extra boards, but software control)
In summary, the first time on the forum, you read a few of the public pages.? That was #1.
Then, you register as a Forum user.? That brought you to #2, and is where most users are today.
If you later send in an FSW SofI and $25, then you get to #3 or #4, depending on a signature or not.?
(On this point, see http://www.fundamentalsoffreedom.com/fswforum//index.php?topic=3118.0 )
The remaining levels are admin staff, myself, and Joseph.
Finally, mere registration on the Forum is not the same thing as being an FSW Member or Associate.
The classifications of Newbie, Lurker, Casually Interested, etc. refer only to the user's quantity of posts--nothing more.
I hope this clears things up.? I apologize for the confusion!
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We like to know who our neighbors are and where they stand. Upforth, open and honest.
Thank you for putting in a few words what I couldn't seem to articulate.
Martha
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Just tellin' it straight.
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Yeah, I finally got a chance to catch up and I can't access that part anymore. That coupled with a diconcerting private message from a fellow Crook County resident really makes me wonder what's going on.
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I moved the post to the Members/Associates board because the
discussion was pertinent to them, vs. the public.
The FSW mission has been quite clearly stated in our FAQs.
MarthaK was apparently trying to make it into more than it is,
which made her post more appropriate for Member/Associate business.
If FSWers hash out a different FSW mission than the current one,
it will be posted for public view.? Meanwhile, any discussion about it
is our own business, vs. the forum at large.
Boston
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I was just wondering why the mission thread thread was moved behind closed doors?
The question almost answers itself, if you think about it. :)
A mission is for members to work out. If you want to have a say in it, you have to join. That is only reasonable.
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I have yet to hand in my SOI and $25 (Just haven't gone around to it yet), and I understand completely why certain functions of this board are closed to me. If there are paying members, they should obviously have much more of a say on the board, than someone who hasn't. I dont know why so many have a problem with this!
BTW, Boston, where do I send the SOI? To your publishing company, Paladin Press?
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Oops, I meant Javelin Press! :o ;D :D
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PatriotAR15,
You and I came onto this pretty much at the same time if I recall, and I remember logging onto the forum and following your progress across the country to Wyoming. I have personal accounts from Jared, Tom and my old childhood friend Michael (who went back to Oklahoma) that they met you, and that you are a real person with a real desire to be apart of this movement. You have done far more than filling out a piece of paper and spent far more then $25 to help in the mission........I think that speaks far more to your intent than the other way.
A signed statement and $25 is a much easier way to get the "low down" and dig up "trash" about the members here, getting "member only information" or what ever else the reasons may be. The life changing acts you have demonstrated and your willingness to be among one of the first in my view gives you ipso facto membership with all rights and privileges granted to the $25 members.
That's where I coming from. ~W~
-Jed
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All of the information, and the address to send it to is on the FSW statement itself.
FSW c/o Javelin Press
P.O. Box 3/W
Ignacio, CO 81137-0031
In the interest of privacy, please use the above zip code as the return address.
Hope this helps. :) ML
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Oh and you have been quite active on this forum to boot! Sounds like a guy who should be granted membership to me.
-Jed
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from Jed:
The life changing acts you have demonstrated and your willingness to be among one of the first in my view gives you ipso facto membership with all rights and privileges granted to the $25 members.
Then, by that single criterion (of having moved to Wyoming), all such
relocators should be granted automatic FSW membership?
The SofI contains not only a pledge of relocation, but of broadly common conduct and goals.
A signed statement and $25 is a much easier way to get the "low down" and dig up "trash" about the members here, getting "member only information" or what ever else the reasons may be. The life changing acts you have demonstrated and your willingness to be among one of the first in my view gives you ipso facto membership with all rights and privileges granted to the $25 members.
What you're saying is that so far an insincere SofI and $25 unfairly gets
more access than a helpful Forum user who's yet to send in a sincere SofI.
I can see your point, however, there's just no reasonably simple or effective
"sifting" process between the two regarding FSW Membership. We must take
signed SofIs at their word, barring subsequent evidence to the contrary.
Oh and you have been quite active on this forum to boot! Sounds like a guy who should be granted membership to me.
Forum participation is not a requirement of FSW Membership.
PatriotAR15 himself has stated no objection to all this, and intends
to formally join the FSW when it suits him.?
Boston
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First let me just say a phone call would do this topic much more justice........
However.......
All I am really trying to say is that people are different, and if part of the goal is to get people on the ground.....and they have made contact with other FSW members, spent time with them, helped each other, been active on the forum, and what ever else you may want to add or take away.....that means something! So much more than a signed SOI and $25. I'm not saying do away with the original way, simply give credit where credit is do...that's all.
I can tell you since I came across this forum, read your book, made my first trip up there....tried to get my friend to get into this, I have incurred thousands of dollars........I believe in this, and I very passionately want to see this work! I'm one your side! All I'm asking for is to be recognized for this and others who have done (and will do) the same.
The SofI contains not only a pledge of relocation, but of broadly common conduct and goals.
Okay, that's fair.....I don't have any real problems with that, but what of others? Some people feel about signing statements like others do about their privacy.
I'm just trying to help, and this one size fits all membership is not helping us.
As for PatriotAR15, his method of joining is his business, (simply put) his post presented me a perfect example of my main complaint about membership.
-Jed
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from Jed:
First let me just say a phone call would do this topic much more justice........
lol.? Then I'm the wrong guy, as I really loathe having to use the phone.
Besides, I'd rather cover common questions openly, for the general readership,
and thus not have to answer the same question multiple times.
I can tell you since I came across this forum, read your book, made my first trip up there....tried to get my friend to get into this, I have incurred thousands of dollars........I believe in this, and I very passionately want to see this work! I'm one your side! All I'm asking for is to be recognized for this and others who have done (and will do) the same.
I do recognize that, as do others here.
I'm replying to your questions and discussing this with you, aren't I?
And, yes, it appears that you have done more than many FSWers, both here and for yourself.
But, you've not signed our common pledge, so you're not yet an FSW Member or Associate.
That has been your choice.
Some people feel about signing statements like others do about their privacy.
OK, what exactly is your issue with either signing statements, or the FSW SofI?
I'm just trying to help, and this one size fits all membership is not helping us.
I understand, and appreciate your comments, but will two sizes fit all?? 5?? 10?
Somebody will always have some objection to something.
If there is one thing in Life I've learned, it's to gravitate towards simplicity.
As for PatriotAR15, his method of joining is his business, (simply put) his post presented me a perfect example of my main complaint about membership.
Ironic, because he wasn't complaining...
Boston
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from Boston:
lol. Then I'm the wrong guy, as I really loathe having to use the phone.
It shows ;D....and I do understand, I'm not overly fond of them either. However they do seem to convey a person?s humanity better than mere words on a page.
Besides, I'd rather cover common questions openly, for the general readership,
and thus not have to answer the same question multiple times.
That's fine, but my reasons for the phone are to head off misunderstandings that lead to bitter feelings and folk leaving the forum.....of which there are already too many examples.
I do recognize that, as do others here.
I'm replying to your questions and discussing this with you, aren't I?
Perfect example of text vs. phone.....it can come off as sounding negative. "aren't I"
And, yes, it appears that you have done more than many FSWers, both here and for yourself.
But, you've not signed our common pledge, so you're not yet an FSW Member or Associate.
That has been your choice.
Again, can be taken in a less than positive way."it appears"
Actually I have signed it. Yep, my choice.
OK, what exactly is your issue with either signing statements, or the FSW SofI?
Personally I don't have a problem with the FSW SofI in principal; I just feel deeds speak louder than words or signed statements.
I understand, and appreciate your comments, but will two sizes fit all? 5? 10?
Somebody will always have some objection to something.
If there is one thing in Life I've learned, it's to gravitate towards simplicity.
I think your pretty much spot on about the simplicity thing; I don't know how many sizes it would take (hell does it really matter?) I think the more I ponder this crazy little topic, the more I come to realize I just want to see what kind of people run this outfit.....are they the type who always hold to absolute thinking or do they recognize rules of thumb and see value in other peoples points of view? Am I testing you the other members here, the decision makers....yes, I would say so........you see I have a pretty dim view of authority, and I have lots of doubt about people and organizations......I figure if they are willing to bend here and there, then they must have a fairly good amount of humanity in them......it is hard to pin down, but when someone does something for me they did not have to, I feel I'm in good company, and in turn I want to do the same for them.
In short don't kill the sprit with absolutes.
Ironic, because he wasn't complaining...
Very true, however Irony can be a great teacher......and that was my aim ;)
-Jed
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All I am really trying to say is that people are different, and if part of the goal is to get people on the ground.....and they have made contact with other FSW members, spent time with them, helped each other, been active on the forum, and what ever else you may want to add or take away.....that means something! So much more than a signed SOI and $25.
So Jed... if all these things that have been done are so important, and if $25 and a signed SOI is such a piddling little thing... then why don't you sign the SOI and send in $25? If it is such a nothing?
When was the last time you spent $25? Was it as important as what we are doing here?
It's not in the purview of a non-member to define what membership entails, sorry.
You've also communicated to me or on the forum that you want to look at FSW's "books". Now there's trust for you!
That's fine, but my reasons for the phone are to head off misunderstandings that lead to bitter feelings and folk leaving the forum.....of which there are already too many examples.
Too many? Who says?. No reasonable person is surprised when a few leave. That's just the way people are. There is no organization that retains 100% of their membership (without force), and bloody few that can keep as many as FSW has I'll bet.
you see I have a pretty dim view of authority
Now, why would you use innuendo like that? What's your purpose?
There is no authority here. There is only association. Authority is when you must knuckle under and cannot disassociate. Anyone here is free to leave at a moment's notice.
and I have lots of doubt about people and organizations......I figure if they are willing to bend here and there, then they must have a fairly good amount of humanity in them
But why should we bend for you, particularly? Do you think you represent the views of everyone? I doubt it; you certainly don't represent mine.
Do you understand how association works? Either you find value in an organization and join, or you don't find enough value and you don't join. That about all there is to it. Now, as a non-member you can certainly make your case to change membership rules, but what does it mean when we say "sorry, no" and you keep on harping on it? What is your purpose?
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Paul,
Responding to you're replies in public would only lead to more negativity.......my driving purpose in this is to stop such from occurring.....if you still want to discuss this send me a pm and I'll send you my phone number.
-Jed
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OK, if you two can PM or chat about it, that'd be preferable.
Regarding deeds as a basis of FSW Membership, no reasonable
demarcation point could likely ever be laid down.
The $25 fee is more symbolic than anything else.
I got the idea from a colleague at a trade show who is a very
well-known newsletter author. He used to give away sample
copies of his newsletter (retail price $100/year), but always
quickly ran out on the first day.
Then, he began to charge a nominal 25?.
It immediately cut down on the freebie-types by 80%.
The last thing the FSW needs is a frothy membership roster, who
joined for free without any real commitment to Wyoming. The
$25 fee helps to "buy" a very high quality group of folks.
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Regarding the FSW "books", Jed, think of it this way:
I've a crosscountry bus to Wyoming and pick up folks along the way.
I ask them for a few bucks to help defray my expenses.
Defray--not pay for--as much/most still comes out of my own pocket.
So, would any passenger have the right to demand to look at my repair and gas records?
_________
Now, if anybody wants to donate specifically for FSW advertisements, I suggest
that they form an ad hoc group for that respective funding purpose, to which
I will contribute from the FSW kitty.
Boston
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Waiting on pm from Paul........tick....tick
-Jed
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It's been roughly 48 hours
Paul, I have not received any pm from you to discuss this topic, and I have given you my phone number in the past concerning this several months ago, but you never called me! You're title below your name says "administrative assistant" well Paul the last time I checked a primary roll of an administrator is to commutate! If you can't do this I suggest you do something that does not have the word "Administration" in it.
From the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary Administration #3 : the execution of public affairs as distinguished from policy-making.
"public affairs" you be the judge!
Now I've got to restate my reasons for getting into this, and why I am angry now.
Active members, associates, forum members....what ever title you wish to brand them with....(I'll call them people who were active on this forum and wanted to help in making the FSW a viable movement.) I noticed were not around any more, so I asked others and got a general idea of what was taking place.....and I swear, I put myself into this topic because, I seen it tearing us and our hopes for the future apart. Trust me Paul it means much more to me than $25!
For me this started with the movement of threads out of view that I was actively following, posting in and one I even started. The root cause being I was not a member of the FSW.
Okay, so if I want to be a member I have to sign a Statement of Intent and send in $25. (Yes, I have read the why of the Statement, but still no real idea what the $25 is used for.....oh wait I forgot, yep Paul told me it was used to buy toilet fresheners......a sneering remark if I do say so myself! And anytime money is collected people usually like to know what it's being used for beyond the euphemistic "keeping the lights on" answer.)
Well sneering remarks and euphemistic answers aside the concept is not a bad thing, it has merit and at the inception of the FSW looking at the FSP I can understand why the choice was made. But time has passed, and this movement is growing.....you have folks moving to Wyoming, folks who are already in Wyoming, folks making fact finding trips to Wyoming, folks trying real hard (such as myself) to get to Wyoming, folks who are making future plans concerning Wyoming, folks who have spent money in helping others and themselves in Wyoming and trying to get to Wyoming (such as myself), folks who are encouraging folks to move to Wyoming and many other examples of folks wanting to help out in this movement. Clearly a pluralistic reality!
I make assumption that our goal is the same.......get freedom minded folks to Wyoming.......and all I am saying is, expand the number of ways folks can become members of this great idea Boston had some years ago.
1.) Change the number of ways one can become a member.
and
2.) When things get heated, reach out and touch those freedom loving folks with a call or something that shows you care and value their wiliness to be apart of this. It would do so much to keep this thing going and growing!
Now for the above two suggestions I have been shown a less than..... well positive appreciation.
While the back and forth with Boston is tantamount to stalemate, he is at least a gentleman.
However
Paul you have been mean spirited, you took my good intentions, my sprit of helping and subjected my comments on this topic to a twisting that serves no good at all! Truly you hurt me with what you said, it was all I could do to not post in kind to your words two nights ago....I thought you would at least pm me, and give me a chance to expound on this....but not a word! (and I know you have been on the forum within these past 48 hours, plus I even dropped hints to another for you to contact me 24 hours ago)
Look, one of the best threads I have read here about making this work was between Boston and Laurel when the Myers-Briggs test thing came up aka the 16 types of people. If this is going to work it's going to take all types working together with freedom as our goal. Paul you're talents are needed, I find value in what you do and what you have already contributed to this cause, however if you don't do the same with others here who want to help in their unique ways, you will find an ever growing number of bad bills to list on your Liberty Index, and you can look in the mirror and place some of the blame on the reflection. In fact it may get so bad that one-day you may just give up and go jump into one of those "Farting Ponds of Mud" at Yellowstone Park.
One more thing Paul, don't twist my words or use your sophistic platitudes to say something I clearly did not say, save that scorn for the legislator....at least there it will serve a good cause.
So decision makers where will this lead? I know many of you feel strongly about ?membership? so do I and others here?..let?s try very hard to make it reflect more than the hard line approach.
I'll make you a deal.....I'll send in the SofI and $25 and become a member the original way, then the number of ways folks can become members expands to a new level....we will then go from there.
Let's make freedom, ~W~
-Jed Bodacious
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I make assumption that our goal is the same.......get freedom minded folks to Wyoming.......and all I am saying is, expand the number of ways folks can become members of this great idea Boston had some years ago.
1.) Change the number of ways one can become a member.
and
2.) When things get heated, reach out and touch those freedom loving folks with a call or something that shows you care and value their wiliness to be apart of this. It would do so much to keep this thing going and growing!
And for the umpteenth time, it is not for the general public to decide how membership in the FSW organization is determined. It is up to the FSW organization.
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Jed, I'm not interested in pursuing this discussion any further.
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Jed, we're now at the point of sawing sawdust, and admin understandably
locked this thread recently.
While I understand your objections to the FSW Membership prodecure,
and thank you for your suggestions, the current arrangement is preferred
by 80+% of polled FSWers, it's simple, and it works well enough for now.
Any org you ever join will already contain somebody of friction for you.
If you wish to allow Paul or anybody else to keep you from the forum, or
from the FSW, that is your choice...but wouldn't such be unrealistic?
I've appreciated your contribution to our forum, and look forward to more of the same.
Perhaps we will meet at the Jam?
~W~
Boston