Free State Wyoming Forum
Prospective Free State Wyoming (FSW) Members and Interested Parties => Prospective Free State Wyoming (FSW) Members and Interested Parties => Topic started by: Jared on May 17, 2008, 12:46:34 AM
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I log my expenses in Quicken, and have done so for a few years now.
I thought people might be interested in how my cost of living has changed since moving to Wyoming.
I've been in Wyoming just over 2 years now.
I pulled numbers from Quicken in 6 month blocks ... I used the immediate 6-months prior to my move, and then the 6-month block prior to that (I didn't have another complete 6-month block prior to this). I averaged these 2 numbers.
I then averaged the next four 6-month blocks of me actually being in Wyoming.
So now I've got a "before" and an "after".
Here's my results:
Automotive (fuel+insurance+registration+svc) .............. +18%
Food (groceries+dining out+snacks) ................... +10%
Entertainment/Recreation .................... -12%
Overall change for these categories ....................... +8%
Explanation & Disclaimer:
The disclaimer is simply that while I'm fairly certain I pulled the numbers accurately, I'm not a statistician or anything, so consider these numbers "rough". They should be accurate enough for the intent of this post.
Obviously the past 2 years have seen a crrrrazy run-up in fuel prices, so it's no surprise my auto costs have risen ... also I live farther away from stores so I drive more often for small errands than I used to.
Food prices could also be partly explained by inflation ... not sure that my habits have changed that much. I actually expected this to be a negative not a positive but I suppose I could be eating out more than I thought I was. :)
I think the entertainment one is less because my hobbies have changed. I don't go to bars with my buddies as much as I used to, out to the movies, etc. I have been doing more outdoor activities which don't cost as much.
So overall I think if you account for inflation my cost of living has stayed real close to constant.
My quality of life however has increased many times! It's one of those things that you can't put a number on, but I really wouldn't trade what I have now for anything. The people I've met, the experiences I've had, and just where I'm at in my life --- it's all so amazing and I'm constantly grateful.
Anyway, I hope this is of some interest to those of you looking at Wyoming. If you have any questions please let me know.
~W~
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My family has lived in Wyoming for over 100 years in all directions. This is ALWAYS the case. Wyoming happens, for whatever reasons, to fall behind the natural supply/demand curve for the rest of the country. Unfortuanltely that causes , as do all outlaying natural processes, an amplified wave effect. So at the time of your post, yes, times were good becasue the inflation had not yet reached Wyoming, but when the oil bubble pops, we're not going to be in such a nice position here. But those of us who are really Wyomingites, or belivers in states rights will endure beyond such fickle things as mercedes benz and 68 degree climate control.
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Howdy ckumelos, glad you found us. Any questions we can answer for ya just let us know.
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I was just remarking to my wife yesterday how our gasoline costs have changed since moving here.
Before we moved, we made lots of short distance trips: Costco, Home Depot, Papa Murphys (pizza), fast food, not so fast food, the mall, etc.
Now, living out in the boonies, I don't leave the house but once a week, but when I do, it's a 120 mile round trip minimum, but I make lots of stops along the way. Yesterday I had 8 items on my "to do" list.
So which uses more gas? Hard to say. Driving 120-150 miles a week isn't bad compared to commuting to work, but I'm retired. So, much like Jared's info, we can't really compare apples to apples because everything changes up here compared to where we came from previously.
The quality of life, however, is much improved. Here is a snippet of an email I sent to my extended family last night:
On the drive home tonight we saw our first elk. Right there on the side of the dirt road. Huge! Wow!
In fact we saw lots of animals today which I'll list:
1: elk (1st time)
2: deer (very common)
3. antelope (very common)
4. turkey (very common)
5. geese (infrequent)
6. porcupine (2nd time)
7. chipmunk (very common)
domestic animals
8. cattle (way too common, she had to stop several times for the calves to get off the road)
9. dog (in neighbor rancher's truck)
10. cats (don't know if these are feral or somebody's pets, they were just off the highway)
11. horses (about a dozen of them are around my neighbor rancher's place)
And this is just TODAY! And the best part is that I don't have to feed or take care of any of them. Nature's bounty for me to enjoy. A hunter could surely keep his family fed around here!
Mac
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I would think the cost differential of living in Wyoming versus where you came from would depend a lot on where you came from.
I moved to Cheyenne in May 2005, from Riverside, California. I don't have Quicken records but by rough reckoning here are the cost changes I experienced in the year after I moved versus the year before:
Housing: Sold my 1445 sq.ft. home for $325k, bought a 1875 sq.ft. home in Cheyenne for $165k, paying $50k down. Mortgage is very manageable.
Food: About 15 percent higher here for most staples, although sometimes you can get good deals on beef.
Fuel: Avg. gas price in Cali when I left -- $2.25/gal, avg. here, $1.80/gal. Nowadays, the avg. here is $3.85/gal vs $4.49/gal in Riverside.
Utilities: Water/wastewater is about the same; gas is about the same; electricity is only about 2/3 of what Cal Edison charges, those rat bastards.
Auto registration: For new vehicles, about the same as Cali, but the cost drops faster each year as the vehicles age.
Property tax: For residential property, works out to about 0.75 percent, compared with 1 percent in Cali. We don't have the cap on increasing property valuations but property isn't rising here the way it had been in Cali, so it's tolerable.
Biggest bonus: No personal income tax. The feds will allow you to deduct state sales taxes (the state rate is 4 percent) instead, so hang on to your receipts especially for big-ticket items.
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Hi Jared,
I think this is the place to reply, so now it's been a year since your post. . . does your Quicken show a similar +/- in the cost of living? Has the year in WY changed your habits even further? Lastly, Where did you move from?
Thanks,
Volcan
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Good question! I've got about 6 weeks of receipts staring at me that I've been neglecting to input :o, so consider your reply the final kick-in-the-pants reminder I needed! ;D
Oh, and I moved here from the Seattle-Tacoma area.
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so...what about a gallon of gasoline/diesel today? how much per kWh of electric?
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so...what about a gallon of gasoline/diesel today? how much per kWh of electric?
The last time I filled up (in Beulah) a week or so ago, I think gasoline was around a buck ninety.
Looking at my current electric bill (Powder River) and just dividing the final amount by the kilowatt-hours, I get 5.8 cents. This is including the "basic charge" and tax. Others may be higher or lower depending on the usage and plan. Hope this helps.
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so...what about a gallon of gasoline/diesel today? how much per kWh of electric?
The last time I filled up (in Beulah) a week or so ago, I think gasoline was around a buck ninety.
Looking at my current electric bill (Powder River) and just dividing the final amount by the kilowatt-hours, I get 5.8 cents. This is including the "basic charge" and tax. Others may be higher or lower depending on the usage and plan. Hope this helps.
thanks for the info. southern md has ~$2.10 and 14.4 cents/kWh
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I log my expenses in Quicken, and have done so for a few years now.
I thought people might be interested in how my cost of living has changed since moving to Wyoming.
Nice. I don't have those kinds of hard numbers to quantify and our living situation changed dramatically coming here. Here's some anecdotes in that regard, as well as some numbers that I do know for comparison:
Our rent on a 780 sq ft duplex in Holladay, Utah was $650/month (no land). Gas (heating/water) was $82/month (12 month avg). Electric was $45/month. My wife's commute was 40 miles round trip at a cost of $55/week (Honda Civic).
Our mortgage on a 2100 sq ft house with 1/4 acre is $750/month, taxes and all. Gas (heat/water/range-oven/clothes dryer) is $80/month (average). Electric is part of the city's bill for garbage and so forth. Electric-only is $28/month, whole bill is $60. My wife's commute is now 90 miles/day at a cost of $30/week, even with fuel rising.
The other bills are pretty obvious, but let me explain the fuel. Gas prices have risen, dropped, and are rising (slowly) again. Gasoline here is cheaper than Utah no matter what--every major gas company has a refinery in Wyoming. The largest difference, though, is the type of commute. In Salt Lake City, her commute was across and then around town (she drove for part of her work, hence the miles) and was all in-city driving. Out here, even thought it's double the miles, her commute is all freeway. Anyone who knows anything about small, fuel-efficient, non-hybrid cars knows that the longer the distance at speed, the better the mileage. Her car has jumped from getting a 28mpg average to over 35mpg now.
Many of our expenses have actually dropped since I'm not living on the road anymore. We're also becoming much more self-sufficient in regards to food and maintenance. Now that I'm home, the vehicle maintenance is mostly done by myself. We also have started our garden this year and I've been growing sprouts and working out trades with neighbors to lower costs. I also trade labor for goods regularly. The owner of the hardware store in Kimball, for instance, had a bunch of cedar 4x4 posts he'd pulled up when he took down a lady's fence to replace with vinyl. They weren't very old and were in great shape. I unloaded his truck for him in return for the posts.
Little things like that are possible all over the place here. I'm going over tomorrow to take the chain saw to the neighbor's railroad ties bordering his yard (cutting to fit in place) in return for some 1x4s he's got left over that I'm going to make shutters out of.
The point is, your cost of living goes down in more ways than just what you're paying for amenities. As you said, your lifestyle improves tremendously! I have neighbors that actually talk to us and don't care what church we belong to. Who wave, stop to say hi, and even grab a leash and walk dogs with us once in a while. Not to mention the fishing...
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The KWH charge in my area is about the lowest in the country. The lowest provider in the whole area. Powder River Energy Corp. It's a cooperative. It's about 1/2 the rates in other locals.
Of course, this will all change if the Obamites get their way. Most of our energy here comes from that evil coal!
Mac
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The KWH charge in my area is about the lowest in the country. The lowest provider in the whole area. Powder River Energy Corp. It's a cooperative. It's about 1/2 the rates in other locals.
Of course, this will all change if the Obamites get their way. Most of our energy here comes from that evil coal!
Mac
Nice! Our power is about .02/kwh here. Very cheap. Also, for those who don't know, switching to a laptop will cut your computer's power usage by about 2/3. They're much more efficient. Cheap too.
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This is a very cool thread. It really depends on where you came from.
I have checked , for instance , on what the cost would be for insurance on my RV, My car and my SUV.
It is about half what I pay here, in Toluca Lake ca. in the San Fernando valley.
Gas here ,right now is at 2.39 a gal.
Ca. income taxes eat me alive. I wouldnt have that problem in Wyoming and few other places.
I like to buy in bulk when I can. That works to save a lot of money over a years time.
We do like to go to a movie once in while. But can live without it.
Cost of what the abode would be in Wyoming for us, I have no idea.
We dont need much. All the kids are very long gone.
I am frugal by nature, except when I go nutz... My evil other half calls it "compulsive".
I call it a "need", >:D ahem....She has learned to shake her head and thats all...
Very interesting.... Any breakdown of real goods, food per item , just a few things would be nice.
And of course the quality of life makes a huge difference as well.
I figure when I move , it will be my "last stand" , wont buy another place after that happens.
I will either "buy the farm" or they will put me in a "home" ....you have permission to put me out of misery it that becaomes the case...
I have the last say.... ;D...if I can talk without drooling etc...ahem...
Dude...coveryer6
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This is a very cool thread. It really depends on where you came from.
I have checked , for instance , on what the cost would be for insurance on my RV, My car and my SUV.
It is about half what I pay here, in Toluca Lake ca. in the San Fernando valley.
Gas here ,right now is at 2.39 a gal.
Ca. income taxes eat me alive. I wouldnt have that problem in Wyoming and few other places.
I like to buy in bulk when I can. That works to save a lot of money over a years time.
We do like to go to a movie once in while. But can live without it.
Cost of what the abode would be in Wyoming for us, I have no idea.
We dont need much. All the kids are very long gone.
I am frugal by nature, except when I go nutz... My evil other half calls it "compulsive".
I call it a "need", >:D ahem....She has learned to shake her head and thats all...
Very interesting.... Any breakdown of real goods, food per item , just a few things would be nice.
And of course the quality of life makes a huge difference as well.
I figure when I move , it will be my "last stand" , wont buy another place after that happens.
I will either "buy the farm" or they will put me in a "home" ....you have permission to put me out of misery it that becaomes the case...
I have the last say.... ;D...if I can talk without drooling etc...ahem...
Dude...coveryer6
Most household and "normal" goods are roughly the same here as they are most other places. Energy is generally much cheaper (most of it is produced here, after all). Housing is EXTREMELY low cost here unless you move to a glorified resort town like Jackson Hole. Go to http://www.realtor.com and compare. Wherever you live in CA, you'll find that Wyo is cheaper. :)
The largest change spending-wise for us was in our planning for spending. Living in a city with easy access to all of the shopping got us into the bad habit of buying as we needed rather than stocking up. You learn to think of your pantry in terms of weeks instead of days, though. In the end, this largely lowers your budgetary needs because you can justify buying in bulk.
By the way, the sales tax here will be less than half the new 9% tax in CA no matter which county you end up in in Wyo.
Unless you're a full on commie, gun-hating, liberal Obamabot, you'll love Wyoming. ;)
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MacAaron,
Where are you that your rate is $0.02/KWH? I never heard of such a low rate!
Mac
I'm up here in Crook County
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MacAaron,
Where are you that your rate is $0.02/KWH? I never heard of such a low rate!
Mac
I'm up here in Crook County
Pine Bluffs. Our town is part of the electric co-op and rates are tiered according to usage. We're in the lowest tier (least use) so we get the cheapest rate (basically at cost). It's done this way because commercial enterprises generally use the most (business, farms, etc.) and so they pay the most into it. Our power comes from the plant just south of Wheatland which is owned by the county and which the incorporated towns have shares in. The plant makes money selling surplus to Colorado, I believe.
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Thanks for the reply MacAaron... We have , for many many years, one bedroom, as a dedicated pantry.
When the kids were young this always was a big savings.
And today it still is. And I live only a few blocks from a supermarket, their term, not mine.
Was just visiting a friend of mine today who is a gunsmith for a large gunstore here.
We were talking about the obamabots and the other related problems of the fed and of this once great state.
I am old enough to recall when Ca was a pretty conservative state. I have been voting since 1959, when I turned 21..
At any rate this place is not where I want to spend the rest of my life.
Thanks for the info...
Dude...always coveryer6
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I thought inverted cost structures only existed in California!
Small volume purchasers pay the least per unit and the more you purchase the more you pay per unit!
Crazy!
Kinda like saying 1 doz eggs is $0.69 per dozen but if you buy 5 dozen we'll charge you $0.83 per dozen!
Here with Powder River Energy, a coop, but not gov't owned, we actually get a BREAK for using MORE energy and being a volume user (as it should be in my humble opinion).
There is also a monthly fixed charge for the cost of just maintaining the account and the meter and the service connection.
This is pretty typical since even if you are away for the summer or winter it still costs them to maintain the lines to your house.
As an aside, you know what I always found weird about utiliites? They are the only business that actually tries to get you to use LESS of their product! They advertise, give advice, do audits, and even give rebates and incentives for you to buy LESS. Pretty weird. Can you imagine any other business doing this? It's almost as if they will reluctantly sell you their product and in the case of Pine Bluffs will punish you for buying more than "your fair share".
Mac
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I thought inverted cost structures only existed in California!
Small volume purchasers pay the least per unit and the more you purchase the more you pay per unit!
Crazy!
Kinda like saying 1 doz eggs is $0.69 per dozen but if you buy 5 dozen we'll charge you $0.83 per dozen!
Here with Powder River Energy, a coop, but not gov't owned, we actually get a BREAK for using MORE energy and being a volume user (as it should be in my humble opinion).
There is also a monthly fixed charge for the cost of just maintaining the account and the meter and the service connection.
This is pretty typical since even if you are away for the summer or winter it still costs them to maintain the lines to your house.
As an aside, you know what I always found weird about utiliites? They are the only business that actually tries to get you to use LESS of their product! They advertise, give advice, do audits, and even give rebates and incentives for you to buy LESS. Pretty weird. Can you imagine any other business doing this? It's almost as if they will reluctantly sell you their product and in the case of Pine Bluffs will punish you for buying more than "your fair share".
Mac
It depends on how you look at the tiers, though. Commercial use of power has a higher rate (voltage) than residential use. Also, commercial buildings (by this I don't mean the local bar) have heavier connections and create more drag on the grid. This is how the tiers are set up. They measure the tiers by how much you draw per month because it's the easiest (cheapest) solution. As far as I know, every Wyoming user on the system is basically getting the power at cost. Our connection is paid through city taxes (part of the garbage/sewer/etc. fees). The coop makes money through selling surplus to Colorado. We benefit from that by getting it our electricity for extremely cheap.
Seems to be working.
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Not to nit pick, but voltage has nothing to do with energy (watt-hours, or KWH).
It is true that large users require larger transformers and infrastructure to supply them with the power they require. Sometimes there's a monthly charge for the use of this equipment. Other times it comes out in the wash because of the energy they use and pay for. The thing that utility companies don't want is a user that demands ocassional huge power amounts. The utility has to supply large equipment, but gets little in revenue month after month.
Our local coop, Powder River Energy, makes no profit, but they have to buy the energy from a supplier somewhere. Some company that actually produces the energy with coal, gas, oil, or whatever. Those companies certainly make a profit or they wouldn't be in business. I guess some cities, such as Colorado Springs, actually run their own power stations as a city-run business. Takes all kinds I guess.
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Unless you're a full on commie, gun-hating, liberal Obamabot, you'll love Wyoming. ;)
The enemy of my enemy is my friend....
Let's not paint all the Obama supporters with a broad brush...
There are some bills in Congress that are forcing Democratic leaders to face the serious problem the party has when it comes to guns. At the heart of the matter is the question of packing heat in Yellowstone. The Senate voted overwhelmingly to attach an amendment to unrelated credit card legislation allowing people to carry guns in National Parks, something more liberal House Democratic leaders are determined to yank out of the bill.
A similar thing happened with the DC Voting Rights Bill passed earlier this year by the House and Senate. The measure, a priority of Democratic leaders and President Obama, would give voters in the District of Columbia a voting member of Congress for the first time since the federal district was created more than 200 years ago.
The Senate attached a provision to the bill wiping out virtually all local gun laws in the District. Outraged leaders in a city long plagued by violent crime were put in the position of having to give up the right to pass their own gun laws in exchange for voting rights in Congress.
The bill is now on hold because House leaders can’t figure out a way to get it passed without the gun provision. That is the crux of the Democrats' gun problem – those who oppose strict gun laws now have a clear majority in both the House and Senate.
Though battles over guns are often seen as a fight between liberals and conservatives, they actually break along geographic lines. People in cities and close-in suburbs, where guns are more likely to be used to rob a house then kill a wayward coyote, want more regulation. Those who live in rural areas and small towns oppose anything that might limit their right to carry a gun.
As Democrats have dramatically expanded their majority in the last two elections, they have been successful in areas where people like to hunt - which means that many new Democrats oppose strict gun laws. The trade-off for winning elections in places like Colorado, Idaho and Alaska is a party that cannot muster a majority against the positions of the National Rifle Association.
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Quote:
. . . which means that many new Democrats oppose strict gun laws.
Of course they do! They just want "reasonable" gun laws! You know, just registration, limits on how many, limits on the type, limits on ammo, etc. Nothing that in any way would violate the Second Amendment. After all, they all "support" the Second Amendment. They just want to be reasonable. Surely nobody "needs" an assault weapon with larg capacity magazines! So what's the problem? And no honest citizen would object to registering a gun if his intentions were honest, would he? Of course not!
Let's see, Obama has voted for more gun laws at every opportunity in his limited career. So has Holder. So has Pelosi. And Feinstein. And Chucky Cheese Schumer. And Kennedy. But these are all reasonable people and they all suppport the Second Amendment. Just ask them. They'll tell you so.
Mac
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I thought inverted cost structures only existed in California!
No, it is a fairly popular concept. Besides the point that it is often government-imposed, it actually makes some sense. For example, energy companies are infamous for "externalizing" some costs; so, the less energy they use, the better (fewer external costs). There are other justifications for inverted rate structures that I have long ago forgotten...
The point of companies is to make money, by the way, not sell the most product. It's not all that weird that utilities want you to use less electricity. In most cases, energy consumption ramps up slowly over time, while to bring resources online is one huge expense (e.g. a new power plant that won't need to run at max output for many years). The best case for energy companies is for them to get a lot of money for supplying a little electricity - if they can get away with it.
This picture is also complicated in that utilities are usually far from free market entities.
One other thing. Large energy consumers pay both a per-kwh charge like the rest of us do, and a peak demand charge. For Bill Cody Ranch, if all the electric water heaters come on at once, even for just 5 minutes, our demand charge for the whole month is based on that 5 minutes. It is a significant portion of our bill; about half IIRC.
Don't get me wrong. I don't like the current structure of utilities. I wish the whole area was free market, not quasi-fascist as it is now.