Free State Wyoming Forum
Prospective Free State Wyoming (FSW) Members and Interested Parties => Prospective Free State Wyoming (FSW) Members and Interested Parties => Topic started by: maxxoccupancy on October 04, 2008, 09:00:35 PM
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I am currently a member of the Free State Project in NH. There is definitely a lot of activism in the Granite State, but little awareness of the amount of activity in the Montana or Wyoming efforts.
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The FSW is not an activist org, and FSWers generally
prefer to first become good neighbors and good friends
with the locals before try to sell libertarianism.
I.e., our model and approach differ from yours.
It's been discussed at length here, and even on the FSP
forum (a couple of years ago).
Best of luck to you in NH!
Boston
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The only point that I was trying to make (I don't communicate well in these fora) was that most FSP-NH folks are unaware that the Wyoming and Montana efforts are attracting as many people as they are. Few people out west post on the freestateproject.org forum, and very few of the NH folks actually check out here to see that there are a lot of people making the move to one of the western states.
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Howdy Maxx, as Boston has said we just go about things a little more quetly. I pray for success with each and every FS project. Hopefully we can all be brothers and sisters in this thing. I spent some time early on with the FSP but was never going to move East so FSW was a great option for me.
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Howdy Maxx, as Boston has said we just go about things a little more quetly. I pray for success with each and every FS project. Hopefully we can all be brothers and sisters in this thing. I spent some time early on with the FSP but was never going to move East so FSW was a great option for me.
Same here. I opted out of everything except, WY, ID, and MT. When NH came up I was done because there is no way that I am moving East. So I think maybe it is all going to work out for the best with multiple movements.
What has ever happened with Jason? I think the last I knew his wife was sick. How is she doing?
Regards, Danl ~W~
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I'm pretty sure that she's all right. I don't stay in contact with Jason much, myself. I have been one of the folks advocating a discussion and vote on an alternate state, and some of the FSP-NH doesn't like hearing about that. Recently, FSP Board members have even been telling me to go create a separate forum somewhere for all of the folks interested in looking into choosing an alternate state. I'm pretty sure that Wyoming would win that vote, but I'm just hazarding a guess.
I also voted for western states (Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, Alaska...) because I grew up in western Washington and I'm pretty familiar with the libertarian culture of the West. I even opted out of the northern New England states because I understood the increasingly negative impact of socialist migrations, even into NH. This state is getting a lot of the yuppy liberals who think that they're helping the poor by voting to raise everyone else's taxes, but who then move to tax havens like NH to avoid paying those taxes. That happened to my home state of Washington, and I hate seeing this go on elsewhere.
For WY and MT, there have been a lot of inaccurate posts on NH boards that the western effort is pretty much dead. Because it's such a sore topic, mentioning the fact that the western effort is very much alive actually invites a lot of flaming, uncivil behavior, and further suggestions that members just leave NH. You can look at the freestateproject.org and nhfree.com forum to see that debatatarians are really hurting the movement here. We've achieved a lot of political changes (amended the State Constitution to improve property rights protection, made it easier for homeschoolers, stopped a lot of bad laws, tossed out quite a few bad politicians, elected some of our own), but there have been some internal problems that are not going away with time.
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For WY and MT, there have been a lot of inaccurate posts on NH boards that the western effort is pretty much dead. Because it's such a sore topic, mentioning the fact that the western effort is very much alive actually invites a lot of flaming, uncivil behavior, and further suggestions that members just leave NH. You can look at the freestateproject.org and nhfree.com forum to see that debatatarians are really hurting the movement here. We've achieved a lot of political changes (amended the State Constitution to improve property rights protection, made it easier for homeschoolers, stopped a lot of bad laws, tossed out quite a few bad politicians, elected some of our own), but there have been some internal problems that are not going away with time.
I haven't been on the FSP forum for probably two years now.
My last post there was to congratulate you all for the election
of the first FSPer to the NH state as one of your 400 legislators.
It happened to be, in effect, a good parting post for me.
Thus, I'm not informed about what your forum debatarians are
howling about.
The Western and Wyoming state efforts are far, far from dead.
Granted, if anyone relied solely upon the FSW website for news,
it probably appears so, but since the online action for the FSW
has always been our forum. We've had many dozens of relocators
by now, and many of them have formed their own knots of
friendships and even business relations.
While the FSP has a regularly updated website and lots of local
energy, we're just more laidback out here. Also, the FSW reflects
my scheme of "phenomenon" over a highly publicized activist movement.
I hazard a guess that most of the FSP's internal problems stem from the
fact that the FSP is a highly organized entity, which is given to strife
amongst the decision-makers. But, again, that's just my guess.
AAR, I hope things smoothen out for the FSP. I admire the commitment
and accomplishments of you all there, however done in another state
and in a different fashion than my own vision.
For Freedom,
Boston
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I just saw this video on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XgkeTanCGI
Naomi Wolf is obviously not the only one sounding the alarm, but it's clearly time now, that something be done. We can't simply stand by and let things fall apart like this. They are already deploying the First Brigade into the US at the whim of the President. This is a dangerous precedent. Members of Congress were even threatened with marshal law if they did not approve these bailouts.
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Well, what do you mean, Maxx? What would you propose? I would agree, if you mean on the local, or state, level. But, definitely not on any kind of large-scale level.
I'll admit, I admire Naomi Wolf, mostly due to the fact that she doesn't worry about maintaining that 'feminist' image that so many feminists do.
I believe, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this, that we are a tiny minority. So tiny that we can have no real effect in political efforts. (The Ron Paul rEVOLution is a great example). As much as I don't want it to be real, we have no chance of changing America. The country cannot be "saved". I'd even argue that it isn't our business trying to "liberate" the huge majority of Americans. If they want to be slaves, that's their choice. And, most of them do want to be slaves; they don't want freedom, because it means responsibility. They don't want to be responsible, they want a caretaker who will make sure they're always comfortable and having fun.
Both the caretaker and the children strongly dislike us, at the very least, for our defiance. Some even hate us.
I'm a member of the Campaign for Liberty at my college, along with less than a dozen other people. We've acknowledged that, despite all the effort we will put forth, our success rate at changing people's minds even a little will be very, very small, even with the insane political and socioeconomic farces being played out in Washington and Wall Street. Why do we do it? I can't speak for them, but I do it because it gives me a chance to meet other like-minded people whom I could perhaps persuade to look into the free state projects, either NH or WY, even though I'm moving to Wyoming at the soonest opportunity.
Remember, people have been doing liberty-related political activism since the 60's, and things have steadily been getting worse. One could argue, I suppose, that the amount of activism has increased as well. But, it still hasn't been enough. Eventually, the fascist/statist elements in the government will cause it to collapse in on itself, or activists may even succeed quite a bit. I don't know, I can't predict the future with any good amount of certainty. One thing that I can ensure, at least to the best of my ability, is my own survival, and I would much rather be in Wyoming or New Hampshire when anything happens.
This is a great response to further national political movements and activism:
http://westernrifleshooters.blogspot.com/2008/07/what-is-to-be-done-question-and-answer.html
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There's that it-can't-be-done attitude, again. That amazes me. I have been able to convince so many people so easily, from individuals to very large groups. I have an easy time convincing both young and old of the necessity to legalize drugs, return to currency backed by gold and silver, and get back to constitutionally limited government. I have an easy time doing this, yet I'm never allowed to speak publicly at any freestater event. I've asked many times, and I get turned down. My political instincts are so keen, but it does no good without help from other liberty types. When I've demonstrated my ability to persuade, I'm always told, "You're preaching to the choir," no matter what group I'm talking to.
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I've also 'convinced' many people. I even tricked a socialist friend of mine, in a way that would have made Socrates proud, to admit that socialism actually sucks, and that the anarchist-market is actually an amazingly awesome system for solving damn near every problem. I even had him admit that gun control has never been to decrease crime, and that any further gun control is completely unnecessary and would in fact be detrimental.
But, they almost always go back to what they believe, because it's easy and convenient. This is what my friend did. He's voting for Obama.
I don't know why you think that movements like this can succeed on the national scale. We aren't just going up against ignorant voters (redundant, I know); it isn't an issue of making more people aware. What we're talking about is a complete reversal of direction of the government, and of the country. We're going up against national socialists and fascists who have had over a hundred years to perfect their methods of indoctrination and Hegelian tactics. Not to mention that they also have the backing of all major financial and business institutions, who will be quite upset if their various 'investments' are threatened. How do you explain McCain's ascension to the top of the Republican Party, even though he was getting practically no media coverage, even from the MSM, and no financial support? Whereas, Ron Paul was breaking records of campaign contributions per day, got 2nd in the Nevada primary, was starting to get lots of media coverage, especially last November and December, and look at what happened to him. Most people still don't really know anything but his name, although he has been interviewed more and more on Fox about the market. To think that the corporate and financial interests, and their buddies in the media and in the government, didn't have some kind of hand in that is pretty naive.
The task is monumentally impossible.
Need another example? How about the HUGE resistance to the recent bailout bill. Just search for stories about congressmen being threatened with Martial Law if the bill wasn't passed, or about the number of votes the congressional offices were getting. Yet, Congress still voted it through. The people in this country have no say as to what goes on, anymore. I'm not sure if they ever did. "A man is no less a slave because he is allowed to choose a new master once in a term of years." - Lysander Spooner
It's simple tactics; you have to acknowledge that some fights you just can't win. When that's the case, you just have to make sure that the cost of winning for your enemies is way, way too high.
And the best way to do that is through the free-state projects.
Now, one can convince fellow liberty-minded folk that the best way to do this is to move to a free state and work towards a freer future. I'm all for that. Like I said before, I've been convincing the few people who are on the edge of our views on liberty to perhaps look into things more. I'm trying to nudge them in the right direction.
But, anything on the national level is impossible.
It can't be done.
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But, anything on the national level is impossible.
It can't be done.
I also came to that conclusion, in 1997 after Hologram of Liberty.
Convincing individuals one at a time for the purposes of a
national effect is like trying to heat a bathtub with a Bic lighter.
Boston
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Convincing individuals one at a time for the purposes of a
national effect is like trying to heat a bathtub with a Bic lighter.
Boston
"One at a time" or enmass -- this might be a good time to do a refresher on Isaiah's Job (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/nock3b.html)
- "One might suggest, therefore, that aspiring prophetical talent may well turn to another field. Sat patriae Priamoque datum – whatever obligation of the kind may be due the masses is already monstrously overpaid. So long as the masses are taking up the tabernacle of Moloch and Chiun, their images, and following the star of their god Buncombe, they will have no lack of prophets to point the way that leadeth to the More Abundant Life; and hence a few of those who feel the prophetic afflatus might do better to apply themselves to serving the Remnant. It is a good job, an interesting job, much more interesting than serving the masses and moreover it is the only job in our whole civilization, as far as I know, that offers a virgin field.";
Regards, Danl ~W~
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Hmmmm. Yes, they still vote for Obama or McCain, but so do many libertarians--and constitutionalists, for that matter. I hate seeing my green friends supporting the political establishment in this way, but people get too emotional about their presidential elections. When you, as an individual, go out and talk to folks about the need to get the size of state government back down to size, when you doorbell and actually get your name out there, you win over the vast majority of folks you talk to.
At one time, we were all statist on at least some issues. I win people over slowly, and I have been seeing those folks get into state and local issues, and I have seen them voting more proliberty. Freedom has to be learned, and some of the folks we've talked to here have turned into great liberty activists, even recruiting their friends.
I've spoken to large groups and convinced most of the clear need to get money and control back to the local level, and that's a big winner as an issue. Even on controversial issues like reverting to tuition funded schools and decriminalizing drugs, I've been able to win over large crowds. Unfortunately, when I give the exact same speech to liberty folks (to teach them how to reach emotion driven people), they just say that I am preaching to the choir. Then I get the, "It'll never work with the sheeple" lecture. I just gave them the talk that works with emotion driven people, and they're telling me that it'll never work.
Gaaarrrrrr!!! I already know that it works because it's the same speech that just worked!
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The primary difference between us(FSW) and your effort is that we rely entirely on inspired individuals to make whatever local changes they can rather than trying to corral everyone into a contrived effort. It IS working. We don't have to make speeches, spend $$$, or any of the time consuming stunts of the traditional political tactics. It works here because the culture of self reliance is still very much alive out here.
"We'll be back before dark. You may as well bring dope and beer"
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"What?"
"Ammo, dude. Bring ammo."
Sorry, had to complete it.
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But, back on topic. Yes, people have been giving speeches, with very good results, for years, on all kinds of topics ranging the entire agenda of liberty, but ultimately to no avail.
I'm willing to bet that if you could get every single Obama and McCain voter to watch a great libertarian speech on TV, when they're by themselves and away from the effects of the crowd, a speech that just totally blows their mind and makes them think in fundamentally different ways, a vast majority wouldn't change their votes.
Although, I would argue that a people, a society, that operates on the MYOB (Mind Your Own Business) principle would ultimately end up as slaves, unless they become foes of tyranny, and actively go out of their comfort zones to oppose tyranny, in all of it's forms. Such can still be done while minding your own business. In fact, it is minding your business!
What do we plan on accomplishing in Wyoming? Living the rest of our lives in an increasingly hostile political climate but only because it's less hostile? Many of you who already live in Wyoming have posted many links and articles about how Wyoming is slowly succumbing to statists and socialists, especially in the southern cities. What is being done to counteract this?
I realize that there is a different culture in Wyoming than in NH, and I realize that Molon Labe was a fictional novel, but I do believe very firmly in the cause, now more than ever. I understand that many in Wyoming do not like change, but things are already changing there. At the very least, we need to stop the move towards less liberty. Better would be to reverse the trend.
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That's exactly the thinking here in New Hampshire.
The point I'm trying to make is that educating the public is not as hopeless a picture as some paint. Since the libertarian movement (LP, Reason, and numerous TV and radio shows, and so on) public opinion has gone from an almost wide eyed naivete about government to the exact opposite. When I listen to people espouse political views, now, I hear a lot of libertarian phrases and ideas mentioned. I have an easy time spreading the idea of individual liberty. I believe that the great majority of people out there want either less government involvement in their lives in their lives or none at all.
The real objective is to find mostly proliberty folks and to get them to get into state and local politics, to show them how their tax dollars are really spent and to see how public power is really being misused. If we don't have the general public as our ally, we don't have a leg to stand on.
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I believe that the great majority of people out there want either less government involvement in their lives in their lives or none at all.
I don't believe that.
The public gets basically what they do want: to be absolved of personal responsibility.
The goods of Liberty cannot be sold unless the "buyer" is first
an individual who is willing to take responsibility for his actions.
This is a psychological issue. It's not due a lack of education.
While LPism can occasionally reach the right person of fertile soil,
that soil must generally already be fertile for the message.
If we don't have the general public as our ally, we don't have a leg to stand on.
True.
However, we live in a socialist state, supported by a socialist majority of voters.
And . . . they like it that way.
Don't ever forget that.
They don't want what we're selling.
This video (and our discussion) would be profitable for you:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x32cxf_yuri-bezmenov
http://www.fundamentalsoffreedom.com/fswforum/index.php?topic=6799.msg53175#msg53175
Boston
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When I speak to crowds, I win over pretty much everyone. I just cannot understand why other libertarians are having a hard time with the general public.
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It is almost humanly impossible to convince the dogmatic and doctrinaire mindset of mushrooms. Hopefully there are a few who haven't been in the dark places who will take on real nourishment instead of ;) ;)
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The Western and Wyoming state efforts are far, far from dead.
Granted, if anyone relied solely upon the FSW website for news,
it probably appears so, but since the online action for the FSW
has always been our forum. We've had many dozens of relocators
by now, and many of them have formed their own knots of
friendships and even business relations. <snip>
Boston
It's a problem that could be easily fixed by a random post on the front page. "The weather is nice today." I don't understand why you don't do it. None of my business, but it couldn't hurt.
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Omigosh. I've been "corrected" so many times on the freestateproject.org forum. The FSW site isn't being updated, which serves as conclusive evidence that WY and MT are completely dead efforts. If a few folks on this forum would be willing to create accounts and get a thread going on nhfree.com, a few posts from western members would probably help dispel that myth. Unfortunately, most migrators are just repeating something that they believe to be true. I've tried to post or state the correction a few times, but have gotten the angry, "Why don't you move out to Wyoming, then" response. The NH project is really suffering from that. Maybe 10-15% of members are just debatarians.
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If a few folks on this forum would be willing to create accounts and get a thread going on nhfree.com, a few posts from western members would probably help dispel that myth.
Speaking for myself, of course, I am not sure that I really care what they think.
If being certain of the truth on this subject were important to them, they would easily find the information they need. Those who are satisfied with the limited information from an offhand comment are probably not interested in us anyway.
I've tried to post or state the correction a few times, but have gotten the angry, "Why don't you move out to Wyoming, then" response.
For these people, I am quite certain that I don't care what they think (or not). ;)
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I've tried to post or state the correction a few times, but have gotten the angry, "Why don't you move out to Wyoming, then" response. The NH project is really suffering from that.
It would appear that your persuasive abilities are not what you think. You may want to examine the parallels more closely.
Let Wyoming disappear from their ken. Asimov's Second Foundation might be a useful analogy.
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Not with the FSP-NH folks, no. Nevertheless, there are lots of people acting on false assumptions in this world. Their ideas sound logical to them, but they don't seem to think things through. The general public seems an easier target because they are less likely to be committed to some political or personal philosophy.
People can move where they want, but I have been a long time advocate of questioning bad assumptions, or at least acknowledging that something is an assumption--open to being disproved by evidence. We makes our worst decisions when we're emotionally attached to some conclusion, and we make our best decisions when we carefully line up as much evidence as possible to consider the options in front of us.
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Nevertheless, there are lots of people acting on false assumptions in this world.
Heh. That's like saying the ocean is a bit damp, eh?
We makes our worst decisions when we're emotionally attached to some conclusion, and we make our best decisions when we carefully line up as much evidence as possible to consider the options in front of us.
No argument there. Emotional "investments" and the fallacy of "sunken cost" seem to be a recurring problem.
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The FSW site isn't being updated, which serves as conclusive evidence that WY and MT are completely dead efforts. If a few folks on this forum would be willing to create accounts and get a thread going on nhfree.com, a few posts from western members would probably help dispel that myth.
It may be evidence, but it's hardly "conclusive."
Tell the skeptics to simply register on our forum if they still believe the FSW moribund.
Meanwhile, thanks for your efforts on our behalf!
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It's a problem that could be easily fixed by a random post on the front page. "The weather is nice today." I don't understand why you don't do it. None of my business, but it couldn't hurt.
Thanks, and I agree.
Our webmistress has twice emailed me that she is ready to update
the FSW site with submissions, but these submissions are not getting to her.
There's a bottleneck somewhere that I don't yet quite understand, but I will.
This probably fell through the crack whilst I was in Africa over the summer,
but I'll get back on this. I'd like the site revised at least 2x/month, if not weekly.
Boston
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Yeah, I work on the ocean, so I know what you're talking about. Thanks for the supportive remarks. I just posted a remark on the fsp forum about the jeffersonforum.net forum that is being put up (albeit a bit late) for liberty minded folks all over. The intent is partly for folks all over the country to share info on liberty activism, as well as to serve as a recruiting tool for various free town, county, and state efforts.
Unfortunately, I got another negative reply by someone who didn't want to hear about other state projects, or other efforts outside of NH. It was a bit personal, but I've gotten used to that. I've mentioned this to other freestaters, and the response is usually that they don't post on the fora anymore, as it is.
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I'm kinda on the fence on this one.
No doubt, if most of you had run into me around, say, 1980, you would have written me off as "hopeless". I was a conflicted mess of political opinions, some pro-freedom and some quite statist. Yet here I am. :)
So, I would say it is not true that "the sheeple" can't learn to love freedom. I don't even like that term as it serves our enemies more than it does us, by alienating people from us. There are some people who can be turned around, and some who can't. That's all.
I look at it as planting a seed. You may not see a lightbulb appear above a person's head, someone you are trying to convince, and he grabs you and says, "I see it! You are completely right! I am going to turn my life around starting right now!" I know, that is a disappointment when it never happens. ;)
But some will come around in time. When the economy flops, the ones who look good now, living like leaches on society, won't look so smart. The more responsible will be vindicated.
I've also 'convinced' many people. I even tricked a socialist friend of mine, in a way that would have made Socrates proud, to admit that socialism actually sucks, and that the anarchist-market is actually an amazingly awesome system for solving damn near every problem. I even had him admit that gun control has never been to decrease crime, and that any further gun control is completely unnecessary and would in fact be detrimental.
But, they almost always go back to what they believe, because it's easy and convenient. This is what my friend did. He's voting for Obama.
No kidding. Why, I even know some folks who are going to vote for McCain! :D
Give folks some time to come around. Don't be impatient. If talking to large groups is your thing, go ahead. If living as a good example is, and quietly, do that. It's all good.
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The more liberty minded you get people, the more frustrated they get with the status quo. The trick is getting them to vent that frustration against anti-liberty incumbents, especially by voting them out of office.
I have jeffersonforum.net/forum up and running, now, and there's even a Child Board there dedicated to Wyoming (and a separate one for Montana, called Handa' Montana). Hopefully, this will turn into an effective recruiting tool for Montana, Wyoming, and NH activists, as well as a soap box for changing people's minds in favor of freedom. The name is also quite easy to remember.
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Congrats on your new forum, and I wish it every success!
Thanks for the Wyoming child board.
~W~
Boston
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Of course. I'm hoping to find all of the small project efforts and get them to jeffersonforum.net
We should also have a nice looking from page up in a few weeks.
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As it has already been pointed out, people have to want to change in order to change. A few years ago I was following the FSP. When they voted for NH I quit keeping up with them. There is NO freedom in the Northeast. The taxes are high. Land and housing is expensive.
But I kept seeing adds for " Molon Labe" in SGN. And then I came across this forum. So I ordered "BGB"(Great read Get it now if you do not have it) and "Molon Labe"(also great get it too). And I started thinking about freedom. I am a Republican , the Liberterian stand on drugs sort of chafes me. However on most issues I can go along with the LP. None of us will agree 100% on everything.
When I told my family I was going to move to Wyoming, They all asked why. I answered to live free. Free from mindless violence that now haunts our large cities and now most of the smaller ones. I live in a Parrish on 40000. The other night we booked into the jail 2 brothers one 18 and one 17. He just turned 17. They each had 3 counts of drive by shooting. and 3 counts of illegal use of a weapon. Home invasions are increasing here in Louisiana. Street gangs run wild in most of our cities after dark. The people are still allowed arms here but so far these gangsters have not picked the right house. It was getting bad in SC before I moved 4 years ago. Tell me you dont have gangsters running free in Wyoming.
NH is just to close to all of the major cities in The Northeast in case of a general colaspe, thats why I am moving to Wyoming just as soon as I can.
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...When they voted for NH I quit keeping up with them. There is NO freedom in the Northeast. The taxes are high. Land and housing is expensive.
...NH is just to close to all of the major cities in The Northeast in case of a general colaspe, thats why I am moving to Wyoming just as soon as I can.
Agreed. It just doesn't make sense to set up that kind of movement in that area; the fundamentals aren't there, period. I've never been to NH, and while I hear that the scenery's nice, the statistics on the cost of living there and what-not don't equate to being left alone. Oh well, different stokes for different folks.
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Bigduane,
I'm not trying to start an argument or change your mind or anything, I just wanted to give you some food for thought. Do with it what you will.
The libertarian position on drugs is not one of approval of drug use, but rather disapproval of government involvement in the private lives of American citizens. Just ask yourself one thing: Has the "war on drugs" been anything other than a dismal failure?
That's all I have. Have a pleasant day!
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Its not an arguement or anything. As a deputy I know that the people hooked on drugs will committ violent crimes to feed the habit. If you make drugs legal and available at Walmart they will still have to pay for them. Still gonna do the crime. I had a good friend who was in a wheelchair beat to death with a claw hammer because 2 idiots wanted his money to buy weed. So much for weed does not cause violence. Legal or not the crime will continue.
But other than that I agree with most of the LP platform. I can even accecpt the drug part to get back my freedom. I just know the crime will continue.
Bigduane
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Howdy all,
The drug issue isn't really about drugs, but about taking
responsibility for one's actions (whether on drugs or not).
Once I discussed this with a county deputy friend, opining that
there's nothing wrong with somebody staying home and
taking drugs. His reply:
"Yeah, but they don't stay home!"
Meaning, they get out in public and commit crimes.
He's got a point.
Although I do not believe that drugs should be outlawed,
I do empathize with cops about this. The use of drugs can
easily overwhelm rational behavior, and thus personal responsibility.
An outright addict, especially.
The ramifications are not cut-and-dried, particularly when the court
system doesn't sufficiently punish crimes of property and aggression.
Anyway, thanks Bigduane for your posts, and I hope that you will
continue to feel welcome here and in Wyoming. No gangs out here!
Boston
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IMmHO, crime is merely a result of individuals choosing to ignore non-aggression as a human principle to get or implement what they want without having to work for it...
The product used to mentally "justify" the action to the robbers is inconsequential.
Whether the assets stolen are used to buy drugs OR pay for school/city/federal budgets, it's all the same action and result....THEFT and CRIME.
The "Wars On ______" do nothing but further erode life, liberty and our pursuits of happiness in this "not free, but still freer-than-most" countries.
If law-abiding citizens would be prepared to defend themselves and their property against all crime, the "addicts" will quickly learn to leave folks alone to live in peace. Then if they continue to prey upon other "addicts", then the shell game ends that much quicker.
MANUMIT
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I do feel welcome here. I am looking forward to coming to Wyoming. I am looking forward to hunting the majestic ELK when I get there.
Here in Louisiana we have to be wathful for gators and snakes in the swamps when hunting deer. Gators have no trouble digesting a Bigduane.
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A gutfull of Bigduane would be a #2 :P
Bigduane
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As a deputy I know that the people hooked on drugs will committ violent crimes to feed the habit. If you make drugs legal and available at Walmart they will still have to pay for them. Still gonna do the crime.
Well, it's a good thing we still have alcohol prohibition. Beer drinkers would be killing innocents to get their beer money even if we legalized it. :)
Bigduane, you may find a few exceptions, but pot smokers even now generally do not do any crime to smoke pot; it's more like losers commit crime who also happen to smoke pot (we could as plausibly say people commit crime to drink coffee). If legalized, it would be grown in closets or sold at the corner drug store. Why commit a crime for something so cheap and available? Anyway, there is no need to wonder what would happen with legalization; we already know. The crime rate dropped tremendously after alcohol prohibition ended. If we ended all drug prohibition, the exact same thing would happen.
We don't have a "War on Some Drugs" to keep crime down, when it is so clear that prohibition itself is the cause of all this crime. We have it because the cops/judges/prosecutors/jailers/social workers find it profitable to throw 2 million Americans in jail. It's a jobs program. And that's the only reason for it.
Anyway it's my business, not yours or anybody else's. If anyone busts my door down, I don't care if it is because of alleged drug use or because of some alleged gun violation, or any other thing. I still will be doing my best to kill their ass. I hope you don't get the impression, from the sometimes conservative flavor of this forum, that people will tolerate Gestapo tactics in Wyoming. They won't.
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Paul I have never advocated Gestapo tactics. I told the Sheriff when he hired me I would not go house to house and collect guns. We all have our addictions. Mine are hot women. 1 day its gonna kill me. >:D
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OK, now everyone understands each other:
Not all cops are thugs, and not all pot smokers are criminals.
Boston
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Its not an arguement or anything. As a deputy I know that the people hooked on drugs will committ violent crimes to feed the habit. If you make drugs legal and available at Walmart they will still have to pay for them. Still gonna do the crime. I had a good friend who was in a wheelchair beat to death with a claw hammer because 2 idiots wanted his money to buy weed. So much for weed does not cause violence. Legal or not the crime will continue.
But other than that I agree with most of the LP platform. I can even accecpt the drug part to get back my freedom. I just know the crime will continue.
Bigduane
I don't know of many alcoholics or nicotine addicts who commit violent crimes to buy drugs. Most of them work for the money to fuel their habit because the prices of legal drugs make that economically viable. I think that blaming that murder on weed is pretty shortsighted. If their objective was drug money they wouldn't have beat the guy to death. There are people who steal and kill simply because they like money and power but I don't think it makes sense to pin the blame on whatever they blow the loot on. I'm sure thieves buy butts and beer with their stolen loot too, but that doesn't mean those products caused them to commit the crime. They were probably perfectly capable of supporting themselves and their habits through honest work, but just proffered to be leaches.
Most pot smoker that I know who commit crimes are simply selling drugs to supplement their own habit. I'm not saying that all methheads and heroin addicts would necessarily stop stealing if these drugs were legal, but you'd see a reduction in the amount of theft IMO and if you can respect peoples liberties and crime rates staid flat, that would be an improvement. To be honest I think you'd see less demand for the hard drugs, just like you see less demand for hard liquor now than during prohibition. People tend to prefer drugs that are not super concentrated.
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There are people who steal and kill simply because they like money and power ...
Their names are Papa Guv, Bureau-Rats and Poly-Tick'ans...
MANUMIT
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Its not an arguement or anything. As a deputy I know that the people hooked on drugs will committ violent crimes to feed the habit. If you make drugs legal and available at Walmart they will still have to pay for them. Still gonna do the crime. I had a good friend who was in a wheelchair beat to death with a claw hammer because 2 idiots wanted his money to buy weed. So much for weed does not cause violence. Legal or not the crime will continue.
But other than that I agree with most of the LP platform. I can even accecpt the drug part to get back my freedom. I just know the crime will continue.
Bigduane
I don't know of many alcoholics or nicotine addicts who commit violent crimes to buy drugs. Most of them work for the money to fuel their habit because the prices of legal drugs make that economically viable. I think that blaming that murder on weed is pretty shortsighted. If their objective was drug money they wouldn't have beat the guy to death. There are people who steal and kill simply because they like money and power but I don't think it makes sense to pin the blame on whatever they blow the loot on. I'm sure thieves buy butts and beer with their stolen loot too, but that doesn't mean those products caused them to commit the crime. They were probably perfectly capable of supporting themselves and their habits through honest work, but just proffered to be leaches.
Most pot smoker that I know who commit crimes are simply selling drugs to supplement their own habit. I'm not saying that all methheads and heroin addicts would necessarily stop stealing if these drugs were legal, but you'd see a reduction in the amount of theft IMO and if you can respect peoples liberties and crime rates staid flat, that would be an improvement. To be honest I think you'd see less demand for the hard drugs, just like you see less demand for hard liquor now than during prohibition. People tend to prefer drugs that are not super concentrated.
I'm putting up some polls at jeffersonforum.net and that may be a good place to share info with folks who are thinking about moving to one of these states. As far as drug prohibition goes, Spain, Italy, and Luxembourg have decriminalized most drugs, and their crime rates went down. Portugal and Holland effectively decriminalized all drugs, and their crime rates declined. It's the illegal trafficking--the supply, rather than the use--that causes most of the crime.
Criminals are scumbags who have no respect for the rights of innocent people. They're really not much different from statists, and authoritarian regimes have often used criminals as their secret police forces. The damage done by the drug war--money wasted, lives ruined, higher crime rates, thousands of innocent people killed, spread of AIDS, and other diseases, breakdown in respect for the rule of law, high school kids put into prisons--is far worse than any benefit that anyone could point to. As far as I can see, it's done nothing but damage. Check out www.leap.cc
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For folks interested, I have just gotten a new Betta fish. This is my first ever pet, and he is in need of a name. I've got the pol up at jeffersonforum.net if anyone would like to put in their two cents.
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"Alpha"
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For folks interested, I have just gotten a new Betta fish. This is my first ever pet, and he is in need of a name. I've got the pol up at jeffersonforum.net if anyone would like to put in their two cents.
shark bait. ;D
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No idea for a name... I don't name fish, but some advice from learning the hard way... Don't get a cat. :)
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A cat and a fish at the same time--good idea.