Free State Wyoming Forum

Prospective Free State Wyoming (FSW) Members and Interested Parties => Prospective Free State Wyoming (FSW) Members and Interested Parties => Topic started by: georgedonnelly on October 26, 2008, 12:42:16 PM

Title: Fired about Wyoming, just Finished "Molon Labe"
Post by: georgedonnelly on October 26, 2008, 12:42:16 PM
Hi there

I just finished reading "Molon Labe" and I'm very fired up about moving to Wyoming. "Molon Labe" almost feels like Atlas Shrugged Part 2 in its impact.

The concrete plan for achieving de facto secession is inspiring. The argument that we should be free to do what we ought was new to me, but you know, I agree with that now. I'm not sure if I would choose to live in the most Christian or tight-laced community, but I wouldn't be too far from it on the continuum from that to the pot-smoking, hippie community. ;)

I'm self-employed, married and have a toddler. My business requires internet access though, so I'm not sure if I'll be able to live full-time in Crook, Weston or Hot Springs. The options for internet access I have found there so far are too limited (or non-existent) for me. But I might be able set up official residence there, while spending most of my time in Cheyenne or one of the other, bigger towns in the south.

The only obstacle atm is convincing my wife. She's from Colombia (where cities are safe and the countryside is extremely dangerous due to marxist and fascist rebel groups) and is worried about being somewhere where neither one of us has family or friends.

Are there many small farms in WY? I'm interested in growing my own crops. I'm also interested in running for office, helping others doing the same and learning how to use handguns and battle rifles.

My ETA would be somewhere between July of next year and Nov 2010.

Thanks in advance for any helpful info for allaying my wife's concerns.
Title: Re: Fired about Wyoming, just Finished "Molon Labe"
Post by: MamaLiberty on October 26, 2008, 12:53:36 PM
Welcome, George! We'll help all we can. What kind of fancy internet access do you need? We have DSL, satellite and wireless available here in Newcastle.

Anyway, please have your wife read as much as possible on the forum here, and many of us would be very glad to talk to her via PM or email... or PM and I'll give you my phone number and I'll talk to her that way.

There are no roving bunches of bandits or soldiers here, at least at present, and we don't expect any. Crime is almost non-existent here - at least not the private enterprise type. Politicians are another story...

I hope you can plan to come visit and look around before you decide where you want to settle. Nothing beats one to one meetings. In any case, depending on where you decide to live, you'll have plenty of good friends and neighbors already here. Don't wait too long.
Title: Re: Fired about Wyoming, just Finished "Molon Labe"
Post by: rhodges on October 26, 2008, 12:57:31 PM
Quote from: georgedonnelly on October 26, 2008, 12:42:16 PM
My business requires internet access though, so I'm not sure if I'll be able to live full-time in Crook, Weston or Hot Springs. The options for internet access I have found there so far are too limited (or non-existent) for me.
DSL seems to be available in most towns around here, and much of the rural areas.  Do you need more bandwidth or lower latency?  If so, perhaps it would make sense to put your server(s) in a hosting facility and manage it from home.

Quote
The only obstacle atm is convincing my wife.
That is a very common theme. Although there are plenty of exceptions, most women seem to be wired to crave comfort, security, and "city life".

Quote
She's from Colombia (where cities are safe and the countryside is extremely dangerous
Where it seems to be the other way around in the US.  Perhaps in Wyoming she could get used to the idea of safe cities AND safe countryside?

Quote
Are there many small farms in WY? I'm interested in growing my own crops.
There are quite a few in Crook County, mostly alfalfa and barley I believe.  I have heard that there is a lot of farming in other areas, like Worland, Lusk, Torrington, and probably a lot more.  If you have a green thumb (and the weather is kind to you), you could probably do very well selling fresh local vegetables.
Title: Re: Fired about Wyoming, just Finished "Molon Labe"
Post by: MamaLiberty on October 26, 2008, 01:20:24 PM
Quote
If you have a green thumb (and the weather is kind to you), you could probably do very well selling fresh local vegetables.

OH YES!!! You will probably need at least one greenhouse to be able to do this, but you'd have a steady market. I'll be first in line if at all possible. :)
Title: Re: Fired about Wyoming, just Finished "Molon Labe"
Post by: georgedonnelly on October 26, 2008, 04:46:38 PM
Thanks for the replies!

DSL, cable or wireless all work fine for me. Only dialup and satellite are of no use to me. Low latency is important for me. Actually I do have my servers in a datacenter (Dallas).

I'll have to take a look at Newcastle - is that in Weston county?

Yes I definitely want to visit first. As a child I lived on a farm in Western PA, but from age 9 onwards have always lived in big cities, Philadelphia, Chicago, Osaka, Medellin, Bogota .... so I expect the transition to be rough.

In any case, the events especially of the last few years have me extremely concerned for the kind of world my son will live in, so I am very motivated to live more closely in alignment with my principles. I've been debating for several years now where to move to in the US, and am sold on WY.

I was considering NH for awhile but after reading Boston's analysis of NH vs WY I'm convinced that WY is considerably more feasible.

That's great news about the farming.

I'll continue reading through the old posts. Thanks again MamaLiberty and rhodges! :)
Title: Re: Fired about Wyoming, just Finished "Molon Labe"
Post by: MamaLiberty on October 26, 2008, 04:56:11 PM
Yes indeed, Newcastle is in Weston - the county seat, to be exact. There are only three towns in Weston, and a wide spot in the road with two buildings as a semi-forth. The rest is open country with grasslands on the south and west, the beautiful Black Hills on the north and east. I'd love to show you around. :)
Title: Re: Fired about Wyoming, just Finished "Molon Labe"
Post by: kylben on October 26, 2008, 06:29:58 PM
Quote
I expect the transition to be rough.

Yes, that's something I'm looking at as well.  My contact with "the boonies" has been limited, but non non-existent, so I'm aware of some of what that kind of transition entails, but not much detail.  What would be useful would be a "rural life for city folks" primer.  Sally and I are thinking about ways to prepare for the transition.  She jokes about having to learn to can our own food, but I wonder how much of a joke it really is. On the other hand, she's still thinking in terms of where she'll be able to buy brie and merlot, so I'm not sure we're completely ready yet. :D

In any case, welcome to the show, George. 
Title: Re: Fired about Wyoming, just Finished "Molon Labe"
Post by: Paul Bonneau on October 26, 2008, 07:04:27 PM
For you city folk, it might make more sense to land in Casper or Cheyenne first, to ease your transition. They aren't really cities, but they are close enough that you shouldn't feel too out of whack to live there. Another option would be to live within driving distance of Billings or Fort Collins, to get a brie and merlot break once in a while. Although that may be a stretch for Billings...

After you get used to no people being around, you can venture into the boonies.  :)
Title: Re: Fired about Wyoming, just Finished "Molon Labe"
Post by: Shawn on October 26, 2008, 07:19:34 PM
Quote from: kylben on October 26, 2008, 06:29:58 PM
On the other hand, she's still thinking in terms of where she'll be able to buy brie and merlot, so I'm not sure we're completely ready yet. :D

brie   it's spelled beer, and there's plenty of places to buy it.    merlot   you'll hafta settle for cheddar, american or pepper jack     >:D
Title: Re: Fired about Wyoming, just Finished "Molon Labe"
Post by: kylben on October 26, 2008, 07:33:31 PM
Quote from: Paul Bonneau on October 26, 2008, 07:04:27 PM
For you city folk, it might make more sense to land in Casper or Cheyenne first, to ease your transition. They aren't really cities, but they are close enough that you shouldn't feel too out of whack to live there. Another option would be to live within driving distance of Billings or Fort Collins, to get a brie and merlot break once in a while. Although that may be a stretch for Billings...

After you get used to no people being around, you can venture into the boonies.  :)

Yeah, that's an idea.  I already "landed" in Tucson from Chicago.  It was a bit of a transition, but not nearly as much.  On the other hand, Sundance is kindof a suburb of Spearfish, right?    Maybe that's big town enough to ease me in... :D

Shawn, that's funny.
Title: Re: Fired about Wyoming, just Finished "Molon Labe"
Post by: salmilo on October 27, 2008, 03:57:13 AM
Um, it's goat cheese & Shiraz I must have! I suppose I can learn how to make 'em from scratch, but I suppose I can stock up in Rapid City - or even make the occasional Denver run.
PS - Learning to can tomatoes, etc. from stuff I know I can grow is something I'll be able to do. I'm so looking forward to the "Earth Mother" phase of my life!
Title: Re: Fired about Wyoming, just Finished "Molon Labe"
Post by: MamaLiberty on October 27, 2008, 04:57:12 AM
Welcome, salmilo!! 

And remember, all of you, that you won't have to learn all this on your own unless you want to. There are plenty of us already here who have done many or most of these things for a long time. I can teach a lot about gardening, raising goats and other animals, making cheese and all sorts of things.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm sure that some of us would be willing and able to help, no matter where you land.
Title: Re: Fired about Wyoming, just Finished "Molon Labe"
Post by: kylben on October 27, 2008, 06:14:04 AM
Quote
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm sure that some of us would be willing and able to help, no matter where you land.

And that's the problem with Paul's suggestion of transitioning into Cheyenne - the most helpful people on the board seem to be up north.   :)  Casper is something to consider, though. 
Title: Re: Fired about Wyoming, just Finished "Molon Labe"
Post by: V2Dream on October 27, 2008, 07:31:29 AM
For what it is worth, there is a winery on the edge of Hill City, SD., which is about 35 miles from Newcastle.  We just had company from Louisiana and when we took them there they bought a whole
case of different wines available.  They also have a gourmet deli(cafe) inside.  Not sure about that part
as we had already eaten and we didn't check it out.  They do have a website:  prairieberry.com
They have some fine honeywines as well as others with unique names such as calamity Jane, etc.
Now I have only had brie once in my life and I am not sure it is on my list of things I would want often but if you do there is a lady between here and Custer that has goats and perhaps she makes that kind.
I know she does make other kinds of cheese.
As for help, well, I thought that is what we were here for.
linda b.
Title: Re: Fired about Wyoming, just Finished "Molon Labe"
Post by: georgedonnelly on October 27, 2008, 10:49:48 AM
MamaLiberty, thanks for your kind offer. I'll probably up in the spring (Mar or Apr) and would be very grateful if I can take you up on that offer around then. I'll co-ordinate with you before reserving my tickets.

Canning – I'd love to (re-) learn how to do that. My Grandma was an avid canner.

Shawn: That is a great Gandhi quote. I wasn't familiar with that one, though I do know he was no pushover, as some people seem to think.

I have to say I'm even more psyched now.

Thanks again, all.
Title: Re: Fired about Wyoming, just Finished "Molon Labe"
Post by: salmilo on October 27, 2008, 12:28:18 PM
Thanks, Mama! I am so looking forward to our (eventual) move to Wyoming! As soon as Kyle & I returned home from our trip to meet you in the summer of '07, I was ready to head out. Alas, Kyle has a real job & real responsibilities (and a great need to be fully prepared financially & emotionally before we can move), so it'll still be a while. I'll be learning about things like canning in the meantime on the web (and from friends if any know how to do such things). I'm so ready for a life change and to be nearer to like-minded friends!
I do wonder, however, how I'll make a living in WY. I do a fair amount of web-design stuff for my fellow eBay sellers, so I can do that any where. And I've been painting a bit for a Miami gallery, so that may drum up some income as well. Being of a certain age & having been self-employed for years makes me somewhat unemployable even here in Tucson. (Gotta put on my creative thinking cap...)
Title: Re: Fired about Wyoming, just Finished "Molon Labe"
Post by: Shawn on October 27, 2008, 06:07:47 PM
Quote from: georgedonnelly on October 27, 2008, 10:49:48 AM
Shawn: That is a great Gandhi quote.

Thanks, can't remember for sure, but I think I found it on Cooper's pages.
Title: Re: Fired about Wyoming, just Finished "Molon Labe"
Post by: wyomiles on October 28, 2008, 11:51:30 AM
Well howdy georgedonnelly and welcome salmilo!
We have lots of threads on gardening here so take some time to look around. I lived in the Southwest corner of Wyoming for over 25 years and gardened every summer. The wife and I canned for a few of those too so you can do it if you want. Below are a few links to let you know that Wyoming isn't to far out in the boonies. Hope to see you both at the next FSW get together.

http://www.tablemountainvwww.WyomingWine.com

www.WyomingWine.com

http://dornans.com/grocery/

http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2008/07/14/news/wyoming/c227d75378b5cde8872574850076e410.txt
Title: Re: Fired about Wyoming, just Finished "Molon Labe"
Post by: celeste on October 28, 2008, 01:41:54 PM
I also run a computer company where I have to upload download from remote servers, and I just maintain an office in town, and go into town when I need.  I have a satellite at home and I also find that the satellite (the more expensive business plan) will upload/download from remote servers.  I have had to improve my patience for this to be feasible.  I find that SSH is not too bad - it's not like with DSL, but I can get stuff done in about twice the time it would normally take me. 
Title: Re: Fired about Wyoming, just Finished "Molon Labe"
Post by: Boston on October 29, 2008, 11:57:41 AM
Thanks, georgedonnelly, for the kind praise of Molôn Labé!
I'm pleased that it's spurred you into action.
Welcome here!

Boston
Title: Re: Fired about Wyoming, just Finished "Molon Labe"
Post by: Korak on October 29, 2008, 11:30:08 PM

Regarding internet connections, Tensleep has fiber to every house in town.  The Bighorn basin is a pretty good place to set up.  There is a company called Elutian and they teach english over the internet to Koreans and Japanese and need this kind of connection.  Here is an example of what is going on in the Basin: Company in Ten Sleep wins funding, may add jobs

By RUFFIN PREVOST
Gazette Wyoming Bureau
CODY - A newly formed joint venture between a Ten Sleep company and two South Korean firms could mean more than 100 new jobs in Powell and additional jobs in other communities around the Bighorn Basin.

Eleutian Technology employs more than 150 certified teachers in Wyoming for conversational English instruction using high-speed video teleconferencing with students in South Korea.

The company announced Thursday that it has received $1.5 million in venture capital from Skylake Incuvest, a South Korean investment fund specializing in the technology sector.

Further initial capital funding of up to a total of $4 million will be available as part of the deal, said Eleutian founder Kent Holiday.
The company will partner with CDI Holdings, a South Korean market leader in English education that has more than 46,000 students, he said.

The joint venture, called Eleutian Korea and to be based in Seoul, will sell and distribute Eleutian Technology's products and services in Korea, Holiday said.

Holiday said a citywide fiber-optic telecommunications network to be built in Powell this summer will allow the company to hire teachers who can work from home, rather than commuting to a data center with a high-speed network.

"Powell's fiber project is critical for us to be able to hire more teachers in Powell," Holiday said Thursday by telephone from South Korea, where he was meeting with new partners.

"One of our strategies is to move teachers to their home in time, and without fiber to the home like Powell will have, we would not be able to offer home-based jobs in Powell.

"I believe that this could allow us to potentially hire well over 100 teachers in Powell over the next couple of years," he said.

Eleutian's teachers work flexible hours earning $15 to $23 an hour, Holiday said.

He said support from the Wyoming Department of Workforce Services was critical in helping Eleutian train teachers.

"Without them, it would almost be impossible to do what we're doing right now," Holiday said. "Trying to roll out a new business like this in rural America is very training-intensive, and work force development has made it much easier for us to operate in Wyoming."

He said the company plans to continue hiring Wyoming teachers, and it will eventually recruit nonteachers with appropriate educational backgrounds.

"One of our core business principles is building rural America, and geographically, for our management team living there, it makes sense anyway to focus on Wyoming," Holiday said.

Demand for teachers is likely to continue to rise, as Eleutian Korea "is just the first of a string of joint ventures we'll be setting up with local partners in the future," he said.

Plans call for similar partnerships in Japan, China and Taiwan with local companies that will sell and market Eleutian services - using Wyoming teachers - to English-language students across Asia, Holiday said.

"That's a pretty good deal for this community, and that kind of project is exactly what my hope has been for this fiber project," said Zane Logan, Powell city administrator.

Logan said that as other businesses learn of the city's fiber project, similar job opportunities may arise, offering more options for people looking to earn extra income from home.

Le Ann Baker, director of the Washakie Development Association in Worland, said Eleutian employs some full-time trainers and support staff and that its part-time wages are at or above what most other businesses pay for similar work.

Baker helped Eleutian get state grants for office and data center space in Washakie County, and the company has hired 43 people there, she said.

"I think it is a success story in the making. In small communities, economic development happens one job at a time, so to add 43 positions is a huge asset to the community," she said.

The company's presence in Ten Sleep, home to about 300 people, has meant a rise in school enrollment there of more than 15 percent, helping the previously shrinking school district remain viable, Baker said.


I think this area is better connected than any other part of the state.  What other little town in the state has fiber to every home?

Tensleep is a nice place, out of the way and beautiful.  Maybe I should just keep that information to myself....


Side note:  I lived in Colombia for a while.  In Bogota.
Title: Re: Fired about Wyoming, just Finished "Molon Labe"
Post by: MamaLiberty on October 30, 2008, 06:37:35 AM
Hmmm, with a whole world to choose from, they pick a town of 300 people? Something really strange about that. And all the state grants and other government involvement doesn't make it sound any better to me. If a company really has something to sell, it will sell. If it needs to be subsidized, it isn't selling.

Those who want fiber optics should pay for it themselves, not expect taxpayers to provide it. This sounds like cheese on a mouse trap.
Title: Re: Fired about Wyoming, just Finished "Molon Labe"
Post by: georgedonnelly on October 30, 2008, 07:13:20 AM
Boston, thanks.

Korak, interesting. Big Horn isn't one of the first three counties tho I think?

It is surprising they would pick a small town where so much training would be needed. Doesn't sound like the most practical option. Maybe it's something about the accent or lack of urbanity the SK firm wants that led them there. As a former EFL teacher in Japan, I know the high level students are always looking for more authentic English learning opportunities.

Korak, I'm in Medellin. Lived a year in Bogota, too.
Title: Re: Fired about Wyoming, just Finished "Molon Labe"
Post by: celeste on October 30, 2008, 02:05:13 PM
Wyoming Department of Workforce Services

director of the Washakie Development Association

Yeah, I think those are the kind of things we are trying to limit in a free state.
Title: Re: Fired about Wyoming, just Finished "Molon Labe"
Post by: Korak on October 30, 2008, 07:44:56 PM

Quote
Wyoming Department of Workforce Services

director of the Washakie Development Association

Yeah, I think those are the kind of things we are trying to limit in a free state.
Quote
Those who want fiber optics should pay for it themselves, not expect taxpayers to provide it. This sounds like cheese on a mouse trap.

Why does all this have to be a damn conspiracy?  Anti government?   Can't it be that it takes a lot of money to start a business and train people?  Could it be that it costs just a little more money to upgrade an inferior copper wire system when you need to replace it anyway?  The reason they chose Tensleep is that is where one of the guys lived who started up the business(I rented to him for a while).  When you have no money to start a business you will do what you can to make it work if it be grants, loans, or family.

I've used the Wyo Dept of Workforce service to train my people and it is quite helpful when you need to send them to school or training courses in other states.  It comes in grant money.  Wyoming wants trained and skilled people that can benefit this state, not blood sucking bums that rely on the next stimulus package or welfare check!  The director of Waskakie Development Asses is there to help people that have no clue how to write a business plan to bribe the banks into giving them money.  It is not some government dictatorial tax syphon that will implant a chip into you for asking for help to write a business plan.  It is simple, people need education, they have to get it somewhere from someone that has done it before.  Wyoming wants legit businesses that are a sucess and can sustain talented people.


Mama: Tax payers in New castle have nothing to do with paying for this fiber optics since Wyoming doesn't have an income tax.  The local town gets taxed when they replace the infrastructure(fiber, etc...).  The infrastructure in Wyoming is very old and needs to be replaced and if it costs a few more cents a month so you can flush your toilet or run the water without old lead pipes then great.  They are doing that in my town right now.  When it is paid off then the tax will be eliminated.  (Poor small town people make sure of that).  By the way, what does cheese on a mouse trap mean? Try not to make everything so controvercial.

On another note:  Some Wyoming lingo.  When someone says that they are from the Big Horn Basin or from the Basin, it mean that they are either from one of the 4 counties there: Hot Springs, Park, Big Horn, or Washakie.  All very nice places to live and grow incredible gardens.


Title: Re: Fired about Wyoming, just Finished "Molon Labe"
Post by: kylben on October 30, 2008, 08:13:14 PM
Quote
The director of Waskakie Development Asses is there to help people that have no clue how to write a business plan to bribe the banks into giving them money.

You ain't from around here, is ya?

Lemme make a prediction.  The subsidies - market interference causing the misallocation of resources, to be more exact - will cause more people to move to the area, leaving the services just as strained as they were before, but in a larger population, requiring even larger infrastructure expenditures and subsidies... lather, rinse, repeat. 

The reason the city used taxes to put in that "infrastructure" is specifically because the local market could not support it. It was because there wasn't enough demand to justify the cost that the city decided it should put it in.  Think about that.

It's not a conspiracy, it's just what government does.  All organisms seek to grow, and through centuries of natural selection, it has groomed the people, policies, and practices that best support it's growth.
Title: Re: Fired about Wyoming, just Finished "Molon Labe"
Post by: Danl on October 30, 2008, 08:30:58 PM
Korak,

I don't really think that they are indicating a conspiracy as much as trying to put government back in its place, which is to preserve justice and provide for the common defense. 

The assumption is that what an individual cannot do for himself he cannot get a group of individuals to vote for doing for him anyway.  Such as, if I cannot go take a $20 from my neighbor to upgrade my phone line, then a group of us cannot vote to take twenties from my neighbors to I can have an upgraded phone line.

It is the principal and not the upgrade in itself.  It seems so nice to share the expense over a group of citizens so not any one person has to pay too much but the price is loss of liberty thru the forcing/coercing of fellow citizens into participating in the scheme at the point of a gun or confiscation of property.  IOWs if I did not contribute by paying the tax forced on me, then the consequence would be forfeiture of my property.

The issue is not the nice upgrade from copper to glass, but rather the forcing, possibly against my will of the tax/tribute by government.  It all seems well and good but the problem is there is no end to it.  There is always the next project.  The town or community or county gets bigger and the bureaucrats always have a new "need" that is for the common good.

I suggest a free down load: "The Law" by Fredrich Bastiat (http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html)  This is a really great short read that will help with concept of the true purpose of government in very short treatise.

At the risk of taking the words from somone's mouth, I will comment on the mouse and the cheese.  They are referring to the carrot (fiber optic) and the stick (increased government or one more little loss of liberty) etc.  If am wrong on that then that person may feel free to correct me.  That is my interpretation.

I do not think that anyone was indicating a conspiracy.  Rather just one more little loss of liberty through tax and spend.  If you don't pay the tax, eventually someone in a uniform will come to call and collect.  "When tyranny comes to your door it will wear a uniform" ( Jack McLamb quote, I think).

Regards, Danl ~W~
Title: Re: Fired about Wyoming, just Finished "Molon Labe"
Post by: Danl on October 30, 2008, 08:54:28 PM
Perhaps I should let this go, but I will excerpt two short segments from "The Law" (http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html) referenced above. 

    • "What Is Law?

      What, then, is law? It is the collective organization of the individual right to lawful defense.

      Each of us has a natural right — from God — to defend his person, his liberty, and his property. These are the three basic requirements of life, and the preservation of any one of them is completely dependent upon the preservation of the other two. For what are our faculties but the extension of our individuality? And what is property but an extension of our faculties? If every person has the right to defend even by force — his person, his liberty, and his property, then it follows that a group of men have the right to organize and support a common force to protect these rights constantly. Thus the principle of collective right — its reason for existing, its lawfulness — is based on individual right. And the common force that protects this collective right cannot logically have any other purpose or any other mission than that for which it acts as a substitute. Thus, since an individual cannot lawfully use force against the person, liberty, or property of another individual, then the common force — for the same reason — cannot lawfully be used to destroy the person, liberty, or property of individuals or groups.

      Such a perversion of force would be, in both cases, contrary to our premise. Force has been given to us to defend our own individual rights. Who will dare to say that force has been given to us to destroy the equal rights of our brothers? Since no individual acting separately can lawfully use force to destroy the rights of others, does it not logically follow that the same principle also applies to the common force that is nothing more than the organized combination of the individual forces?

      If this is true, then nothing can be more evident than this: The law is the organization of the natural right of lawful defense. It is the substitution of a common force for individual forces. And this common force is to do only what the individual forces have a natural and lawful right to do: to protect persons, liberties, and properties; to maintain the right of each, and to cause justice to reign over us all. "

    • "The Complete Perversion of the Law

      But, unfortunately, law by no means confines itself to its proper functions. And when it has exceeded its proper functions, it has not done so merely in some inconsequential and debatable matters. The law has gone further than this; it has acted in direct opposition to its own purpose. The law has been used to destroy its own objective: It has been applied to annihilating the justice that it was supposed to maintain; to limiting and destroying rights which its real purpose was to respect. The law has placed the collective force at the disposal of the unscrupulous who wish, without risk, to exploit the person, liberty, and property of others. It has converted plunder into a right, in order to protect plunder. And it has converted lawful defense into a crime, in order to punish lawful defense.

      How has this perversion of the law been accomplished? And what have been the results?

      The law has been perverted by the influence of two entirely different causes: stupid greed and false philanthropy..." 

    [/color]
    I think this represents the issue.  If we let the camel get its nose under the tent even a little then it will come in all the way.  Let a salesman or tax man get his toe in the door and he will be in.  No conspiracy here, just plain old "nature of government." 

    Regards, Danl ~W~[/list]
    Title: Re: Fired about Wyoming, just Finished "Molon Labe"
    Post by: Korak on October 30, 2008, 09:39:38 PM

    Hell, growing up in Wyoming must of confused me about how economics works on a civic level and that other people know better than I do.
    OK, fine.  I am not trying to defend the overreaching government.  Yes, I have read "The Law", and actually understand it despite living in a town of only 510 people.  In fact, some of you may be surprised I can READ and WRITE or even went to college. 

    Ok.  I will agree with no government, town, state, or federal.  When my sewer doesn't work I will crap in the street and drink my own urine.  The garbage will back up.  That will bring back the black plague since everyone else will be doing the same thing and thus kill a lot of people, which in turn will bring this world back to a normal population that the NWO wants it to be at.

    Back to the issue at hand!!!(Not government control, Elutian, grants or taxes)  Internet connection.  Wyoming has it and the big horn basin has it good.  I did a little research and the tax payer pays nothing for this service to their house.  TCT brings it in of their own free will and recoups their cost as a part of their PRIVATE business enterprise. (Fiber is cheaper and faster than the old copper systems)
     
    Sorry Georgedonnely for this minor digression.
    Title: Re: Fired about Wyoming, just Finished "Molon Labe"
    Post by: kylben on October 31, 2008, 06:04:45 AM
    Quote from: Korak on October 30, 2008, 09:39:38 PM

    Hell, growing up in Wyoming must of confused me about how economics works on a civic level and that other people know better than I do.
    OK, fine.  I am not trying to defend the overreaching government.  Yes, I have read "The Law", and actually understand it despite living in a town of only 510 people.  In fact, some of you may be surprised I can READ and WRITE or even went to college. 

    That's a pretty ridiculous reaction.

    Quote
    Ok.  I will agree with no government, town, state, or federal. When my sewer doesn't work I will crap in the street and drink my own urine.  The garbage will back up.  That will bring back the black plague since everyone else will be doing the same thing and thus kill a lot of people, which in turn will bring this world back to a normal population that the NWO wants it to be at.

    You don't have to be an anarchist to think that universal fiber connection overreaching.  My prediction above is one of the reasons that I am, but even a small-government libertarian can see the difference between sewer/roads and cutting edge high-speed internet connectivity.  There's no reason whatsoever that private industry could not install it's own high speed fiber once the market demand is there to justify the price - and only to those customers or those areas that do justify it.

    Your off the wall wailing about the black plague and drinking urine is exactly the kind of irrational fear mongering that lets government get away with running our lives - because people like you are too afraid to run your own.

    Title: Re: Fired about Wyoming, just Finished "Molon Labe"
    Post by: MamaLiberty on October 31, 2008, 09:50:46 AM
    Quote
    At the risk of taking the words from somone's mouth, I will comment on the mouse and the cheese.  They are referring to the carrot (fiber optic) and the stick (increased government or one more little loss of liberty) etc.  If am wrong on that then that person may feel free to correct me.  That is my interpretation.

    That's close, and applies just as well as what I was thinking. I meant that the tax supported "service" is the cheese (whether by direct tax or state "grants" is immaterial) that eventually traps the people into thinking that government action is the ONLY way they can obtain services.

    Once the "service" is in place, no competition of any sort will be allowed, which will further distort the market, increase the costs and at least seemingly insure the dependence of the people - closing the trap.  Once a government, coercion and force backed, "service" is in place, the chance of changing it is usually pretty slim.

    If people really want something, they will build it. If they don't have the capital themselves, they can find those of like mind and work together voluntarily. There is simply no excuse or rational reason for theft.

    And not to over simplify, but if you read through history carefully, the actual cause of the "black plague" was the wholesale destruction of CATS throughout Europe in response to the hysteria about witches and the occult. With the cats gone, the rat population exploded and eventually the fun began.

    Who decided that all the cats must be killed? The government of the day... not the simple peasants, though I'm sure many of them took part in it since they were swayed by TPTB and did not know the consequences.
    Title: Re: Fired about Wyoming, just Finished "Molon Labe"
    Post by: jubal on October 31, 2008, 08:05:08 PM
    RIGHT ON Kylbin
    Title: Re: Fired about Wyoming, just Finished "Molon Labe"
    Post by: Paul Bonneau on November 01, 2008, 11:25:41 PM
    Well... Korak may be right about the fibre connection - this may be, and I think it is, an entirely private matter (except for one thing - TCT needs to talk government into letting them have the sole franchise, so that part of it ain't exactly free market, is it?)

    But this statement kinda took the wind out of me - the cognitive dissonance is amazing:
    Quote
    Wyoming wants trained and skilled people that can benefit this state, not blood sucking bums that rely on the next stimulus package or welfare check!

    Korak, here are the problems with this.

    1) "Wyoming" doesn't want anything, because "Wyoming" is not a sentient being, but a collection of individuals, individuals who all want different things. Some of those individuals, mostly those in government, want to push certain high wage jobs and so forth, not because they are any more saintly than the rest of us, but because it brings in more tax dollars for their pet projects, and it also feeds their personal need to play Santa Claus and be admired for bringing good stuff to the state (which would come anyway if the market was left alone). Yes, more tax dollars even if there is no income tax - more money is spent on cars, toys, housing, etc. - sales tax and property tax. Government people always get their cut.

    2) How can a person accept a "benefit" from government, and not be a "blood sucking bum"? If "Wyoming" is training people, those people are themselves blood sucking bums, as are the business owners who foist their own training needs onto taxpayers. I am always astounded how rural people can sneer at welfare moms in the big cities while getting their own paycheck in one form or another from the same government that supports those welfare moms.

    3) It doesn't matter that you can't easily trace the connection between Susan's pocketbook and the subsidies received. The taxes have been paid The money has been stolen from someone. Some people think that if Wyoming government manages to arrange things so that money is stolen from people outside of Wyoming (e.g. severance taxes), then that is all right. Besides being highly questionable morally, it just ain't so, because the same trick is played by every other state government, and Wyomingites get dinged for that whenever they buy any product or service from outside the state. About the only argument for continuing this practice, that is not completely suspect, is that stopping it in Wyoming would be "unilateral disarmament". But even that does not make the practice of stealing from others moral or admirable.

    4) Wyoming has more government employees per capita than all states but one (Alaska). These folks are (supposedly) needed to provide this and that service. But doesn't that statistic bother you at all? When do we transition over to being just another New Jersey or California? Why not have government just do everything, and we can all live in a worker's paradise? At some point you have to say, government should stay out of this or that.There is no way that government should be involved in training at all. Training happens at companies or people train themselves. There's just no need for inefficient, expensive, coercive government to be in it.

    Well, that is enough I suppose. I think some serious reading and self-examination would be a good thing. I personally make it a habit to question my own motives constantly so I don't pull a fast one on myself and rationalize something that I know deep down is just not right.