Free State Wyoming Forum
Prospective Free State Wyoming (FSW) Members and Interested Parties => Prospective Free State Wyoming (FSW) Members and Interested Parties => Topic started by: Rich-in-MD on November 16, 2008, 09:03:39 AM
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I'm 18 years old. I reside in the state of Maryland. I've been wanting to leave this state ever since Ron Paul introduced me to Liberty. I've done my research, and narrowed possible destinations down to four states - Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, and Wyoming. So far, New Hampshire is winning. Wyoming is at a close second. New Hampshire is winning not because I like the state better, but because I suspect I would be able to move there much quicker than Wyoming (explained below). I'm sort of in a predicament. I'm hoping you guys who are on the ground in Wyoming could advise me?
I live with my parents, and work at a fast food restaurant making $7.25 an hour. In previous jobs, I have made as much as $8.25 an hour. This is not nearly enough for me to live independently. I have a half year of high school left, which I intend to complete. After this, I honestly have no idea what to do. I'm beginning to think that college is not for me at the present time, simply because I don't know what to do. Things could change when I graduate, but I've never ever been sure what I want to do, so I doubt it.
One plus for Wyoming is lack of a state income tax. I don't make enough to pay it here, but they still take it out of my check (I get a return at the end of the year). Not having that would free up about $50-$100 a month. Also, the sales tax in Wyoming is generally smaller than in Maryland. Even with this, though, I don't see how I could get by. Am I correct in assuming that I would need a car in Wyoming, with things being as spread out as they are? How does rent look? I've heard some of you mention that if you have a heartbeat, you can find work. Would I make any more than I make now? Do I have a chance to move soon?
I'm a bit burnt out right now, and moving to Wyoming is just what I need. In New Hampshire, I would be able to rent easily and according to some people, get by on much more than I make now. Although, I've also heard things are more expensive in New England. So, I'm really stuck. :(
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Rich,
Oh, if I knew what I know now when I was your age....
First, realize that freedom starts in your own mind, only then can you hope to find it out there, in your world, your country, your neighborhood. It sounds like you have a good start on that, and if you have that, you bring your freedom with you wherever you go. It's just a matter of finding a place where it can be best expressed.
The overriding advice I have for you is to keep as many options as possible open to you. You're just getting ready to start out in an independent life. Don't do anything now that will close off options for things you don't even know yet that you might want to do.
First and foremost, that means don't take on any debt. Nothing closes off future options faster than having regular monthly payments that you can't get out from under, for things that might not even last as long as the payments. If you have to borrow for a car, to open up more employment possibilities, buy the cheapest one you can possibly find that will suit that purpose, then use the extra income to pay it off as soon as possible. Don't borrow, ever, for something that won't increase your income. Debt is perfectly reasonable if it is to buy productive capital, it is never worth it for consumable or luxury items. Any car that has more than the minimum you need to get to work and back is a luxury.
Second, it means educating yourself. Absolutely, finish high school. That diploma will open some doors for you that might be closed without it. But realize that the diploma is not the same as the education. Much of what you'll be taught in public school will harm you more than help you if you let it. But you will learn some valuable things as well, so stick with it, but understand that it's entirely up to you to sort out the wheat from the chaff.
Educate yourself outside of school as well. This will help you know the wheat from the chaff, but it will also be the far more valuable education in the long run. Buy books, all you can get your hands on, in whatever subjects interest you. And read them, don't just display them on a shelf and consider it educational. You can find inexpensive books at used book stores, yard sales, or get hand-me-downs from friends and family. Maybe even from teachers. I have two shelves full of college-level textbooks that cost me on average less than a dollar each. It turns out the cheapest used books are often the most useful, history, academic subjects, philosophy, and the like. They're the ones nobody wants to read anymore. Use the textbooks you get from the school to read ahead, to the parts that aren't covered, and learn all you can from them while you have free access to them. Go to the library and study.
Don't go to college just because it's what you're supposed to do, the expected path. Go when you have a specific purpose for going. It's an expensive, time consuming process, much of which will be wasted on requirements like "women's studies", or "social justice in the 21st century", and learning obsolete and dangerous economic, political, and philosophical BS aimed at making you a "good citizen" that knows enough to produce for others, but not enough to be able to produce for yourself. Make your own path for your education, and make sure that what you pay for with your time and money brings the benefits to you that you want, not what others want and that benefits them more than you.
Manage your money carefully. Stay out of debt no matter what, but it takes more than that. Learn to live on 70% of what you take home, and put the rest in savings. Don't worry about investing it, getting interest, buying gold and silver, etc., at this point. That can come later when you have enough stockpiled for it to matter, and have learned more about how to manage such things.
The remaining 30% is your nest egg. This is what you will someday live on the proceeds of, whether you use it to start a business, invest it, or what have you. If you start now, and are ruthless about saving that money, you may be able to effectively "retire" by the time you are thirty. Sooner if you really dedicate yourself to it. The goal is to get to a point where your money makes the money you need to live on, and the less you are used to living on, the lower your debt, the sooner that time comes. Retiring doesn't mean staying home and playing golf and driving your Porsche around, it means you still work and be productive, but you do it in your own way, without having a boss, having the same rote tasks every day, getting chewed out for showing up at 9:05 and being told you have to stay late. Your time is your own, and you can use it to make money that stays your own.
If you can't do that on one job, get a second job. I know it's tough while in school, but living with your parents, you don't have a lot of expenses either. Look at this time like building a foundation for the rest of your life. It doesn't look like much from the outside, the work is all being done underground, but without it the most beautiful house in the world won't stand. Look at your current job as training for how to have a job, or more specifically, how to be productive and make money. You probably won't be in fast food all your life, but there are still skills you will learn from this job that will be invaluable to your future. Soak it all up. And then push yourself to find a better job. Look for jobs just beyond what you think you are qualified for, you'd be amazed at how low the standards have become.
Take the long view. Realize that by avoiding all the bells and whistles now, not having all the cool stuff your friends have, it means that in a few years you will be able to buy cool stuff without making yourself a wage slave like those friends will probably be. And your definition of "cool" will have changed as well. If you try to be just like them now, you'll end up being just like them forever - trapped. Set your sights higher than that.
Your freedom starts with independence now. Stay out of debt, save money, and learn all you can. With that, you're buying now, with all your hard work, the time, resources, and knowledge that will enable you to live how you want in the future. Wyoming will still be there when you're ready. It may seem like time is short with the political situation, but you have to start from where you are. Shortcuts look tempting, but Wyoming won't save you if you don't have a good foundation.
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Rich-in-MD, I am an old guy but can still remember when I was your age. I had no idea what to do with my life so I just did what was easy. I was lucky and already lived in Wyoming. After I graduated I went to work, during the summers, at the local mines. I was making more money than I knew what to do with. This was during the Wyoming boom of the 70's. Today there is another boom going on, as you have probably already read. This means there are lots of jobs in some areas, but housing may be a problem. If you are not afraid to work I think you can find a good job. (I think it has been posted at FSW that even the fast food jobs make good money in some parts of Wyoming. )
Here is my advise. If you can find a way, come out to a get together . While you are in Wyoming make some contacts and take a look around, at least you will have a better idea of what is available. Either way, get that diploma ! Maybe attend college in Wyoming ?
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First, realize that freedom starts in your own mind, only then can you hope to find it out there, in your world, your country, your neighborhood.
...
First and foremost, that means don't take on any debt.
...
Educate yourself outside of school as well. This will help you know the wheat from the chaff, but it will also be the far more valuable education in the long run.
...
Manage your money carefully.
...
Retiring doesn't mean staying home and playing golf and driving your Porsche around, it means you still work and be productive, but you do it in your own way, without having a boss, having the same rote tasks every day, getting chewed out for showing up at 9:05 and being told you have to stay late. Your time is your own, and you can use it to make money that stays your own.
...
Take the long view. Realize that by avoiding all the bells and whistles now, not having all the cool stuff your friends have, it means that in a few years you will be able to buy cool stuff without making yourself a wage slave like those friends will probably be.
What an excellent post and advice, Kyle! If you don't have it saved somewhere, perhaps you might bookmark this thread so you can pass the link on to the next young fellow who asks? :)
I've done my research, and narrowed possible destinations down to four states - Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, and Wyoming.
For what it's worth, I lived in Nevada for sixteen years before getting fed up and moving to Wyoming:
http://www.fundamentalsoffreedom.com/fswforum/index.php?topic=3408.msg23223#msg23223 (http://www.fundamentalsoffreedom.com/fswforum/index.php?topic=3408.msg23223#msg23223)
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Rich,
Perhaps if you ask around enough, you may find a kindred spirit within the ranks here who is located somewhat close to one of the universities in WY, or maybe even look at one in Billings, MT (in-state residency would certainly help, though). I can't recall what minimum in-state residency requirements are for getting in-state tuition, but here in TN where I am right now, it's either 6 months or 1 year. So, if you can rationally survey your near-term financial resources, projected expenses for moving, living expenses (food, rent, gas, auto, etc) and nail down a gameplan for making the transition without going into debt, perhaps you can live and work in WY (or MT) for a while and qualify for in-state tuition.
Nothing groundbreaking there...I bet you're saying, "Gee thanks, Yoda..." ;)
I'm 24 yrs old now, and was looking at transferring to University of Montana-Bozeman back when I was 19, but uncertainty of tuition expenses made me anxious and ultimately unwilling to take the plunge. But again, if you can connect to a small network of people out there, perhaps a fellow will help you get on your way to independence.
If I had it to do over again, and knew some folks out there who I could have shared a place to live with, and not be of the troublesome type, I'd of packed up and headed off in the blink of an eye (but maybe WY instead of MT). So if you can find a common path, between your emotional yearning to seek freedom in the northwest, and your logic & reasoning behind the math of making such a move, it may wind up being a decision you'll thank yourself and others for many times over.
Just my $0.02 (Kylben and Wyomiles made about $1.05 more sense, so I concede) ;D
P.S. I'll be moving out to northeast WY (most likely) next July or so, and will have enough funds to buy some land and a home. If you need a place to crash, and you're all there in the head ;), stop by.
-Chad
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Rich-in-MD,
I am also a senior in high school. I am in a similar situation to you. I've decided to go to college in Wyoming "University of Wyoming in Laramie". I currently work on a farm and make very little. I come from a very low income family and I'm going to have to pay for college on my own. Don't let adversity discourage you from making a better future for yourself. If you choose to go to college, apply for scholarships. Apply for everything you come across. Ask you guidance councilors about opportunities. There are tons of scholarships that kids don't even apply for every year, just because they didn't take the effort. I'm also going to have to take out a student loan to pay for whatever I can't get scholarships for. Like Kylben mentioned, taking out a loan with the intent to turn your investment into more money is ok as long as you do it smart and pay it off as quickly as possible. Taking out a student loan for college would be an investment worth taking.
Oh, by the way, the University of Wyoming has very reasonably prices for a four year college, and if you take a major that they don't offer in your home state, you get in-state tuition. For example, I'll be taking rangeland ecology and watershed management and they don't offer that major at any college in south carolina, therefore I get Wyoming's in-state tuition and the lottery scholarships from my state will follow me out there.
The opportunities are there. It will just require work and research on your part to turn the opportunities into a better future for yourself.
-sclibertytree
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What an excellent post and advice, Kyle! If you don't have it saved somewhere, perhaps you might bookmark this thread so you can pass the link on to the next young fellow who asks? :)
Thanks, rhodges. Once I got rolling, I realized I was actually trying to talk to myself 25 years ago, to slap some sense into that younger me. He really screwed us. You should have seen the tongue lashing I gave myself that I didn't post. :D
If you like it that much, of course you, or anyone else, have permission to copy it anywhere you like.
BTW, a lot of the advice on money comes to me from two books: "Richest Man in Babylon", can't recall the author offhand, and "Cashflow" by Robert Kiyosaki of "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" fame. Alas, they came almost too late for me, but at least now I'm digging out of that hole. It's the least I can do to warn the young 'uns off, lest they fall in with me.
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Rich in MD,
I only wish I had the wherewithall at 18 that you have!
NV also has no income tax, but it isn't what it used to be. Heavily democratic party these days. More and more people there looking to have someone else pay their way. More and more illegals are flooding in too. Hence, my handle here is manFROMnevada, as in "previously from".
A person will be paid according to the value they bring to a company. Low income wage earners only earn low wages because that's what they bring to the table. You need to provide value to your employer. Construction skills and mechanical skill are always needed out here. I've heard the mines are big payers and always looking for responsible workers who will put in a day's work for a day's pay. Don't think that mining is going down a hole with a pick, headlamp, and canary! I know a guy who works as a mechanic there for the big monster trucks. See this link:
http://www.archcoal.com/aboutus/careersearch.asp (http://www.archcoal.com/aboutus/careersearch.asp)
Just one of many possibilities in WY.
Good luck in your search.
Mac
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BTW, a lot of the advice on money comes to me from two books: "Richest Man in Babylon", can't recall the author offhand...
The author is George S. Clason, and I have also found it helpful in years past. I have given away several copies over the years.
All the best,
-Richard
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A person will be paid according to the value they bring to a company. Low income wage earners only earn low wages because that's what they bring to the table. You need to provide value to your employer. Construction skills and mechanical skill are always needed out here.
Mac
"Your job is not your security - your ability to produce is your security."
Bingo. I know from several post-high school years of brain purging that the "you are a unique and special snowflake" diatribe put into kids by wish-washy self-esteemed "teachers" is downright disastrous to the success of a young person being successful in the work force.
Naturally, the prospective employer is looking at how much money you can save him or her along a timeline, and how much first cost must be invested in your training and education before a simple payback period is overcome. Simple as that. The job candidate is looking at what the employer can do for them, but the balance of benefits in the employer-employee matrix has really been thrown out of whack with the constant verbal diarrhea being spewed on how "we all deserve a good job, healthcare, a big house," on and on.
As kylben stated, read as much as you can outside of your prescribed study regiment. And don't limit yourself to one field of study. Sure, you can concentrate your time in one field of specialty, but understanding the connection between creating value as an employee, and the challenges faced by the employer can really get you in their favor for showing leadership skills.
Extensive study of economics (Austrian) and technology would be a good starting point.
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;) Rich, kylben nailed it. Reading your post reminded me of my daughter, she's 17. kylben's words remind me of so many discussions I have had with her over the years. Fortunately she has not really expressed any desire to leave Wyoming yet. I think the tought of it actually scares her. That being said, use the next few months to research the areas of interest and try to figure out what Rich really wants from life. Don't worry about the money aspects just yet. Just focus on who Rich is or who he wants to be. Trust us all when we say that it sucks when you wake up one morning and realize that you are living someonelses vision of success. Be true to yourself and the rest will follow, Paul.
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Kylben has hit the nail squarely on the head. Yes, you will need a car in Wyoming. The distances involved basically require it, nothing fancy but that it will get you to point A and back to point B, W/O major break downs, not a difficult find, or expensive. Right now Wyo. jobs are going begging, especially in the energy industry. I would tend to stay away from the oil patch as it can be dangerous, but there are other jobs to be had. There are people here who also will look out for you til you get your feet on the ground and squared away. I left home at 15. I learned some hard lessons and got a few bumps on my head, but I'm still plugging along. You may have to dodge, zig and zag, hit a snag here and there but with some pluck you'll be OK.
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I gotta get my two cents in........ What they said!!! ;D
Great job Kylben!
I heard or read somewhere a long time ago that you should move to where you want your family to stay. IOWs if you hope your family will be around in the future raise them in that location, so it will be "home" for them.
Regards, Danl ~W~
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Once I got rolling, I realized I was actually trying to talk to myself 25 years ago, to slap some sense into that younger me. He really screwed us. You should have seen the tongue lashing I gave myself that I didn't post.
Hey, I hear ya, kylben. :)
It's not quite true that you must have a car in Wyoming. It is possible to find a job withing walking distance or biking distance here, and what's more the towns are pretty self-contained because they are so far from each other. For example, I often walk to my wife's business, the Wyoming Buffalo Company here in Cody.
I would also question college loans. Be very wary of such. Avoid if at all possible. The only exception would be if you had a guaranteed good-paying job when you finished, and as you may know, there are no guarantees in life. Especially with this economy.
One thing I would advise, is taking on the "employer mindset". VFTR55 touched on it. When you look for a job, look at it from the employer's point of view. He has to get more out of you than you cost to him, for it to make sense to offer you the job. Can you deliver? Can you show up and work hard? If you can, you are already ahead of the game, because so few seem to understand this - they think it's an employer's obligation to keep them happy. If you can stand out in a job, no matter how low you start, you will advance. Be cheerful, look at the bright side, pleasant to be around, and get your work done and you will advance.
Had enough advice from old farts yet? :D
Oh, yeah, knock Nevada off your list. :)
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All us old farts wish we were young farts. We certainly would have better plans.
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Rich,
Kyleben has some great advise.
There is only one thing that I would like to add, if I may.
BUDGET!!!
Set up a budget that you can live within, with your known monthly income, and stick with it. Do not vary, waver or cheat. Do not rob Peter to pay Paul.
I have learned this lesson rather late in life, but not too late. I used to be a earn and spend individual, and NEVER had anything to show for it.
Do not fall into the credit card trap. If there is something that you want to purchase, and it is not in the monthly budget, put it in the budget and SAVE for it.
Have and make goals, make lists of what you want to accomplish and figure out how (even asking for advise, LOL!) to achieve these goals.
A short personal note:
Our oldest son, last year, graduated from a University in the south with a masters degree in Mechanical Engineering with an emphasis in computers.
He paid his own way through. He worked full time in an Ice Cream Parlor. He took out only one loan and paid it back within one year. He lived away from home and even managed to save! He did it by budgeting.
Make a plan and stick with it.
Good luck and God speed,
Bob
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Great advice, all, thanks for your contributions.
I particularly agree that Clason's book is a must read.
Just read it myself this year, per the rec. of a good friend.
Priceless stuff.
Keep us posted how it's going, Rich.
~W~
Boston
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All us old farts wish we were young farts. We certainly would have better plans.
Haven't you heard? 60 is the new 40! But then again, I also heard that Elvis is still alive & kickin in some Amish community in Ohio...