Free State Wyoming Forum
Free State Wyoming (FSW) Promotional => Making the Case for Moving Toward Freedom (and Wyoming!) => Topic started by: MichaelNotMike on February 14, 2009, 06:44:00 PM
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Wife was at the store here in SoCal yesterday, checkout girl told guy in front of line that her family had moved to Montana. Several people in line said things like "why in the world would they do that????"
We went to the range today for valentine's day date, shot an M1 garand (first time ever). We loved it. Had a sweet mellow day, but want to be able to do that without driving so far.
Came home, on the local news there was a piece about a online dating service just for farmers and cowboys:
http://www.farmersonly.com/
The news was painting it with a little smirk, like "Why would people want to live like that?"
VERY NEXT THINGS ON THE NEWS, in order were:
-- California budget is collapsing
-- State Income tax refunds are going to be very late this year.
--State Income tax going up 1200 dollars per person
--Minister beaten by gang members, church trashed
--video of serial burger
--teen shot at party
-- mudslides
Bah!
MWD
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that's "serial burglar" not serial BURGER.
do'h.
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-- California budget is collapsing
-- State Income tax refunds are going to be very late this year.
--State Income tax going up 1200 dollars per person
--Minister beaten by gang members, church trashed
--video of serial burger
--teen shot at party
-- mudslides
"Why would people want to live like that?"
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Exactly.
We're working on not livin' like that.
MWD
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Wife was at the store here in SoCal yesterday, checkout girl told guy in front of line that her family had moved to Montana. Several people in line said things like "why in the world would they do that????"
An old gal at the office caught wind of my upcoming exit to move to Wyo, and said "I've driven through Cheyenne and it's ugly and dusty, a lot like Texas. But I hope you'll like it." After that, didn't even bother to let her know that Cheyenne is probably too liberal for me, that'd REALLY cast me into a "nutjob" aura. ;D
VERY NEXT THINGS ON THE NEWS, in order were:
-- California budget is collapsing
-- State Income tax refunds are going to be very late this year.
--State Income tax going up 1200 dollars per person
--Minister beaten by gang members, church trashed
--video of serial burger
--teen shot at party
-- mudslides
They left out the usual mentions of spontaneous cases of ebola, Avian bird flu, SARS, killer bees, and indigestion. You've got to round out the package in MSM reports to effectively scare folks into complying. It's, like, rule #1 of the playbook.
Bah! indeed.
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Michael, doesn't that kinda depend on who's house the 'burger' breaks into?????
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Michael, doesn't that kinda depend on who's house the 'burger' breaks into?????
Well, this isn't a "shoot the 'burger' state."
Some hinky guy knocked on my door today, saying he was selling rug cleaning "valentine's day special", but wouldn't give me a flier, said it was his only one.
I forgot the alarm was on and set it off opening the door. If he was casing houses, I think he'll probably bypass this one.
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I talked with my little brother today - he stive lives in the Sheeples Republik of Kalifornia.
I keep trying to get him to haul his butt out of there, but ......
He said that Kalifornia was considering the issue of IOU's instead of tax refunds.
If they issue them, they should take them as well.
Can you just imagine if everyone in Kalifornia paid thier taxes with an IOU.
Too Funny!!!
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He said that Kalifornia was considering the issue of IOU's instead of tax refunds.
If they issue them, they should take them as well.
Can you just imagine if everyone in Kalifornia paid thier taxes with an IOU.
Too Funny!!!
ROFLMAO ;D
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Here's another city/country experience:
We want to pick up a second .22 rifle for Appleseed. Called Wal-Mart.
DJ: do you carry rifles?
Woman on phone: what??
DJ: (slowly) do...you...carry...rifles?
Woman on phone: What?
DJ: Guns! Do....you....sell....guns?
Woman on phone (indignant) CERTAINLY NOT!
DJ tried two different Wal-Marts, experience was similar. Even in Simi Valley (the "West Virginia of Southern California").
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...Kalifornia was considering the issue of IOU's instead of tax refunds.
If they issue them, they should take them as well.
Can you just imagine if everyone in Kalifornia paid thier taxes with an IOU.
Too Funny!!!
Mmmmm...we already pay & get paid with nothing but IOU's across the fruited plains...only they go by the name "FRNs" :-[
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OK, we have two rifles now.
Went to a gun store and bought my baby a late Valentine's Day present, a Ruger 10/22 with internal mags.
I have a Marlin 60, tube mag. :P
Ready for appleseed now! and beyond yay!
MWD
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OK, we have two rifles now.
Went to a gun store and bought my baby a late Valentine's Day present, a Ruger 10/22 with internal mags.
I have a Marlin 60, tube mag. :P
Ready for appleseed now! and beyond yay!
MWD
Well, that's a start!
Might as well get it in your head now (if you haven't already) that this is going to be expensive getting set up with firearms. Do it now or forget about it later. If it wasn't for the economy occupying the looney lefts agenda, they would be working on getting an AWB passed. But you maybe realize that already...
Get some extra 30rd mags for the 10/22 while you still can. Oops, I forgot, you're in Kalifornia. :'( You really should have an aquantiance outside your state buy some and stash them for you, 'cause the day may be is coming when they will be 'unavailable'. Getting 10 for one gun is not too many. Midway still has them unless they are 'out of stock' again.
Buy as many bricks of .22LR you can, with CASH. Two or three at a time shouldn't raise any eyebrows. 10K is not too many. That's only about 20 bricks. Get some ammo cans and put them in a cool, dry place. And then be sure not to utter a peep. ;)
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The news was painting it with a little smirk
I'm glad they sneer at places like Montana and Wyoming. Keeps a lot of riff-raff out.
BTW, since you are visiting Wyoming with intention to move here, you might as well buy guns and ammo here too. I think I read Boston saying that was legal, even in BATF's eyes (verify to be sure). You certainly will have a better selection.
Bobcat's right. Don't wait too long to stock up on guns and ammo. Next thing you need is a decent scoped .308 bolt gun (or .30-06 if the availability is much better). And a couple of pistols (9mm, .40 or .45). Don't listen to folks around here who sneer at 9mm; just check out ammo costs. ;)
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Thank you Paul.
So, we're gonna open carry our 9mm peashooters while there, since I think it's been verified that it's legal for outta staters to do that (right)? Any thoughts on increased likelihood of getting pulled over/hassled with Cali plates?
Also, any thoughts on this holster?
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ItemDetail.aspx?sku=ZAA-026
Thanks!
MWD
(oh, another "city vs. country", well, it's more "Cali vs. most of the rest of the country", we have to wait ten days to pick up the rifle we bought today. bleah!)
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Heh, if you're going to open-carry, don't use a tactical leg holster. While those have their place, namely combat, there are better choices for regular open carry. I have a Safariland model 568 paddle holster, and it works fine. It doesn't have a securing loop to prevent it from being taken by someone else, though, but it does retain the pistol very well with tention.
Any belt-holster will work fine. A couple holsters to stay awake from are Blackhawk SERPA holsters, and Fobus holsters. Because of the locking mechanism of the SERPA, it's hard to operate quickly (and probably harder to operate when you're actually in a fight because of a loss of fine motor skills), and Fobus holsters don't seem too strong.
Blade-tech holsters are great, I hear.
Just my opinion. Others may have completely different opinions.
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We're kinda plump. belt holsters have to either be really tight, or they slide past the belly.
Any suggestions? (other than lose a lot of weight fast....)
MWD
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Michael, consider a good shoulder rig?
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cool. what do you recommend?
MWD
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I don't know anything about leg holsters. They will stand out though. I have a feeling most people go for something a little less obvious. "Discrete open carry" is the phrase.
There is no law about open carry. I'm guessing "no law" means the same thing for Wyomingites and non-Wyomingites. :) Never heard of anyone getting pulled over for the wrong tags. There are speed traps here and there though.
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http://store.thewilderness.com/index.php?cPath=51 (http://store.thewilderness.com/index.php?cPath=51)
I carry a Springfield Micro-Compact .45ACP. Ive used a number of different methods, but am 100% sold on the Safepacker.
The thing is hidden right out there in plain sight. It hangs on your belt, and all you have to do is squeeze the release buckle and the flap falls open, with the piece right there where it should be. I've carried it from Birmingham to Billings... never had one person give it a second glance.
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http://www.ravenconcealment.com/products/holsters.html
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http://www.ravenconcealment.com/products/holsters.html
Those look great, but don't seem like they'd have any retention. I think we're set on something that has a snap on the top.
Wife's pretty handy with sewing. Maybe we'll move to Wyoming and start a company making holsters for non-skinny folks!
MWD
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Oh, wait. I figured it out. You have to wear pants with BELT LOOPS to use a belt with a holster. (I was using it with shorts. Do'h!)
Comfy for both of us, and problem solved:
http://www.stinkfight.com/2009/02/17/fun-family-photos-week-of-feb-16-09/ (http://www.stinkfight.com/2009/02/17/fun-family-photos-week-of-feb-16-09/)
(I had a pair in the closet, I save them for jury duty, funerals, and weddings.)
Ordering some Wranglers online now.
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Here is my favorite holster. http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=338648 I carry an XD compact .45 in this, just a bit forward of the right hip.
Also, for your wife, take a look at http://www.corneredcat.com/TOC.aspx This is a website by, for and of women who carry to defend themselves. Lots of good stuff about women's holsters and other carry concerns.
And Women&Guns: http://womenandguns.servertalk.in/index.php?mforum=womenandguns
All kinds of interesting items about holsters, other accessories and carry concerns. Not to mention a LOT of great people, both men and women.
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Michael, Michael, Michael,
You don't have to have belt loops on your pants to wear a belt with holster on it.
You don't even have to wear pants to wear a belt with a holster on it.
It just looks a little funny if you're only wearing a belt and holster - unless you have the hat to go with it!!!!!
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...You don't even have to wear pants to wear a belt with a holster on it.
I thought "The Naked Cowboy" lived in New York City!
MamaLiberty, thank you for the links, will check 'em out with DJ.
MWD
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Michael, Michael, Michael,
You don't have to have belt loops on your pants to wear a belt with holster on it.
You don't even have to wear pants to wear a belt with a holster on it.
It just looks a little funny if you're only wearing a belt and holster - unless you have the hat to go with it!!!!!
Ah, don't you think that might get you just a LITTLE too much attention? In New York, of course, the big problem would be the gun. In Wyoming, it might be too much skin, hat or not. >:D
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We're kinda plump. belt holsters have to either be really tight, or they slide past the belly.
Any suggestions? (other than lose a lot of weight fast....)
MWD
Two good possibilities, and a suggestion: Go to your local Wal-Mart and pick up one of the black nylon holsters they have for Crosman airsoft pistols. The one I have for my spare 9mm is meant for a Crosman *AirMag C11* and fits both my SIG and a Cz-52 pretty well. http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5913349 (http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5913349) They're inexpensive, at around $8.95 or so [pat my local store] and handle a 4-inch barrel 9mm pretty well. Even my Browning Hi-Power and M1911 .45 fit in it, though their longer slides and barrel sticks out the bottom of the holster. But it fits on your regular trousers belt, though the velcro-fastened flap that holds it on the belt will handle up to a GI 2ΒΌ-inch pistol belt. They're certainly not the most *professional* or classy rig in the world, but the price is right, they're high-ride [and so work while you're seated in a car] and are inexpensive enough that they can be modified if you think that'd be useful.
And if you're looking for a little better rig, once you get to Wyoming, check out a local gunshop there, tell the helpful fella or gal behind the counter that you've been using the nylon rig but are looking to find something a little nicer. With luck, they'll fix you right up; if not, you get to check out some more Wyoming gun shops.
Other possibility: I'm real fond of the U.S. military M3 shoulder holster. It's what I wore as an army tank crewman back in the 1960s, and they're simple and reasonably inexpensive. Since the originals are now collectors pieces brionging collectors prices, and since the WWII originals are now 65-years old, you'd want a good quality reproduction. The M3 uses a single shoulder strap [unlike the later M7, which has 2, plus a loop for the belt] and a nice simple belt snap. They're not really meant as a concealment rig, though a GI field jacket covers one up nicely, but mine is most commonly worn over a T-shirt. If you've ever seen the movie *The Wild Bunch*, the .45 Auto that William Holden's character is wearing is in an M3; they also work very nicely for my Browning GP and the WWII Walther P-38.
(http://www.uswings.com/images/45holster_brn.jpg)
You can order one for $20.95 from Numrich Gun Parts Company, http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd.asp?chrProductSKU=978990A&chrSuperSKU=978990&MC= (http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd.asp?chrProductSKU=978990A&chrSuperSKU=978990&MC=)
Or you can get a slightly nicer one from these folks for $45.00: http://www.uswings.com/milacc.asp (http://www.uswings.com/milacc.asp)
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In Wyoming, it might be too much skin, hat or not. >:D
lol....yup.
I think in Wyoming with the weather, too much skin might be a problem, even on your own land with no neighbors.
I'm going to have to get used to long pants. Haven't worn them in years. Ordered some Wranglers to get me back into it.
MWD
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One thing we've put thought to is the possibility that DJ will end up with a job with the WY State. I know that's not the happiest outcome, but it seems where most paralegal jobs (or "legal assistant" as they're sometimes called) in WY are, from what we've seen online. (Unless anyone knows any cowboy lawyers looking for an assistant, unlikely those advertise.)
There's a paralegal job with the WY state gov have been empty for a while. That one will be filled before we could move, but it's encouraging as for employment possibilities with what she's trained to do and enjoys.
Paralegal jobs don't stay unfilled here in SoCal. WY probably isn't as swamped with applications as they'd be here. I doubt there a lot of unemployed paralegals in Wyoming (espec. with WY having the lowest overall unemployment in the US), and I doubt a lot of paralegals relocate to there (at least nowhere as many as relocate to here), so that looks like what it will likely be.
Could at least get us there, and is encouraging as to dealing with the three-pronged difficulty of selling this house, finding a house there, and finding employment there.
MWD
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Have you considered Levi 501???
Remember that up here in Wyoming, we are a lot closer to the sun with a lot less atmosphere between here and there!
One of the major problems in Wyoming is skin cancer from too much exposure to the sun. Wear long pants (helps with the sage too) long sleeves (you can always roll long sleeves up but you can't roll short sleeves down!), and a hat. I am very fair skinned and have even burnt through a shirt.
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Have you considered Levi 501???
Boycotting 'em. They finance anti-gun stuff.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/814414/posts
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Wrangler.
7 belt loops, and perfect for mag pouch and holster orientation.
Boston
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Have you considered Levi 501???
Boycotting 'em. They finance anti-gun stuff.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/814414/posts
Yep, I stopped wearing Levis a long time ago. Wrangler loose-fitting boot cuts pour moi.
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Speaking of boycotting, how about boycotting employment with the state? Wyoming already has far, far too many (enter your favorite cussword here). More per capita than any state but Alaska. If there's one thing we DON'T need, it is more government employees.
Folks, this is a forum for FREE STATE WYOMING. Am I the only one who finds it a little weird anyone here would want a government job? Government is the antithesis of freedom.
Sorry for the rant, but it had to be said.
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Speaking of boycotting, how about boycotting employment with the state? Wyoming already has far, far too many (enter your favorite cussword here). More per capita than any state but Alaska. If there's one thing we DON'T need, it is more government employees.
Folks, this is a forum for FREE STATE WYOMING. Am I the only one who finds it a little weird anyone here would want a government job? Government is the antithesis of freedom.
Sorry for the rant, but it had to be said.
I knew I was setting up for this as soon as I posted it.....partially based on the other thread where you and Boston already sparred over this very subject. ;)
We're certainly going to look into non-gov jobs for Debra Jean when we move there, but there are logistics. We aren't going to be able to do what we want to do if she's working at WalMart. She is an incredibly skilled paralegal, that's her best value in any job market, so that's what she'll do, here or there.
Moving out of a state we've been in for over half our lives is a big decision. We want to do it in a way that works for us. That includes her working as a paralegal, that's a deal breaker. If Julliete Kramer needs a paralegal, DJ will certainly apply to her as a first choice. If anyone like her is looking, please let us know. As someone said, that sort of job doesn't advertise.
We'll check with private attorneys when we move to see if they're hiring, but the only thing we could find online was state jobs.
MWD
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Speaking of boycotting, how about boycotting employment with the state? Wyoming already has far, far too many (enter your favorite cussword here). More per capita than any state but Alaska. If there's one thing we DON'T need, it is more government employees.
Folks, this is a forum for FREE STATE WYOMING. Am I the only one who finds it a little weird anyone here would want a government job? Government is the antithesis of freedom.
Sorry for the rant, but it had to be said.
There's two different kinds of government work. There's doing things that are evil that shouldn't be done by anybody, and doing things that are good and necessary, but shouldn't be done by the government. I consider taking the latter kind of job to be roughly in the same class as using public roads or the Post Office or calling the police if you get mugged. Avoid them if you can (they're often depressing and degrading anyway), if you can't don't ever let that dependence carry you over the line into advocating for them, and do everything you can to structure your life around not needing them. Easier in some cases, harder or impossible in others, but in any case, only you yourself can truly know how conscientiously you've kept to your principles, and its really nobody else's business.
The former, of course, makes you unfit for the company of decent men, and it is everybody else's business.
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MichaelnotMike, I did a quick web search for "wyoming paralegal jobs" and saw a few that were not government. Not sure what they pay etc but just thought I would throw that out there. Here is one for example.
http://wyoming.craigslist.org/lgl/1004959453.html
and here http://www.getparalegaljobs.com/state/paralegal-jobs-wyoming.html
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MichaelnotMike, I did a quick web search for "wyoming paralegal jobs" and saw a few that were not government. Not sure what they pay etc but just thought I would throw that out there. Here is one for example.
http://wyoming.craigslist.org/lgl/1004959453.html
and here http://www.getparalegaljobs.com/state/paralegal-jobs-wyoming.html
Thank you. Didn't see those, went to a bunch of other sites.
MWD
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Speaking of boycotting, how about boycotting employment with the state? Wyoming already has far, far too many (enter your favorite cussword here). More per capita than any state but Alaska. If there's one thing we DON'T need, it is more government employees.
Folks, this is a forum for FREE STATE WYOMING. Am I the only one who finds it a little weird anyone here would want a government job? Government is the antithesis of freedom.
Sorry for the rant, but it had to be said.
I understand where you are coming from, but I think there are some situations where I have changed my mind on this. The positions of school teacher and police officer are two good examples. I cannot emphasize enough how strongly I believe that the government should not be involved in education. With that being said, I wish there were some talented FSW folks who could get employed to work with the kids that are in the system, sow a few good seeds. Especially in a subject like History.
Ditto with Peace Officers. We have discussed at various times about how a county Sheriff has an enormous amount of power and ability to block various Federal infringements and intrusions within a particular county, I sure would love to see some FSW members get into a position like that. You have to get the experience somewhere to get a job like that.
Even for regular patrol officers, I would like to see some guys in that job with the mindset of being Peace Officers and being civil servants.
I think sometimes we get so fed up with certain people and organizations that we have a tendency to want to wash our hands of the whole thing, when we should possibly see about getting involved and influencing things to the best of our ability.
Ron Paul is a good example. He has been fighting the system as it exists in Washington for decades now. How many times do you think he has had to do or be involved with things that disgusted him, with an eye toward the big picture? While he has been in the system, fighting the system, he has also used the system to play the game. Remember the "earmarks" that some folks made such a big deal about?
Principles are a good thing to have, and we need to stand on them. However, as much as it sounds terrible to even say it, sometimes we have to compromise them with an eye toward the bigger picture. Everyone has a line I suppose, and we must draw it somewhere. If you choose to stand entirely on principle you would quit paying the "voluntary" income tax, property taxes that support the school systems we rail against, and deducting the portions of the many other taxes that you pay that go towards supporting everything from Abortion, to ACORN, to the UN. Heck, I guess if you were really going to stand only on principle you would go obtain yourself some "illegal weapons" like MG's, DD's, and AOW's and start your Revolution.
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I understand where you are coming from, but I think there are some situations where I have changed my mind on this. The positions of school teacher and police officer are two good examples. I cannot emphasize enough how strongly I believe that the government should not be involved in education. With that being said, I wish there were some talented FSW folks who could get employed to work with the kids that are in the system, sow a few good seeds. Especially in a subject like History.
Yes, dear god, this is definitely something libertarians should be doing! One of the writers for my school paper is an anti-capitalist, socialist POS, and always spews forth his beliefs in the op/ed section of the paper every week. And guess what he's studying to be.
A history teacher!!, for either middle school, or high school. This is exactly the kind of thing that is directly responsible for so many people today who a) don't know anything or b) know a lot that just isn't true. Swine like this kid cannot be allowed to go unchallenged in their teaching. This is the kind of thing they've been doing for many, many years, and it's time we do the same, if only to undermine it a bit.
I would like to do the same, but many high schools don't teach economics. I know, shocking.
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<---- begin rant ---->
I have so many thoughts here....and thank you for all who posted with well-stated opinions from all sides of the "argument." It's a lot to chew on. :D
I guess I'm mostly addressing Paul here, but also just stating my thoughts on all this, I was prompted to do a lot of thinking based on Paul's reaction.
My immediate thoughts:
First, isn't it a stated idea of the FSP to install "the good ones" in government positions? This seems true both in the original Sorens essay, which contained the line "Once we've taken over the state government....", and in the contemporaneous WY Boston Molon Labe incarnation, where the hero becomes governor.
If we'd like a freedom-minded person as Governor/president, why wait for that? What's wrong with having a few freedom lovers pushing pencils now in the beehive of gov organizations that do not kick in doors?
It's quicky becoming "uncool" and even "rascist" or "redneck" or ______ (pick your favorite cuss word) to espouse liberty. I think that will happen slower in Wyoming than where DJ and I currently live.
Many current high school history books are wrong. There was a piece on Fox news this morning at about 5 AM where they were reading from current textbooks, citing what was wrong, and giving the names and addresses of the CEOs of the publishers and urging people to write them. One example that stood out was a currently widely used Houghton Mifflin high school history book. The section on "terrorism" mentioned Timothy McVeigh. Period. Nothing on Muslim extremism. And the part on FOIA was wrong. As was the part on the history of the ERA. Not biased, but wrong. They mentioned a few teachers they knew who had to use the book, who told the kids to write in the margins with additional info and corrections as the teachers brought them up.
I know one libertarian school teacher. He teaches high school chemistry in a southern state. Old buddy of mine. Not sure he can do much from there, but he's a good guy.
History as it's being written in real time is wrong too. Eric Holder, current (gun hating) Attorney General this week called America a "nation of cowards" because white people aren't flocking in droves to move into black neighborhoods. Also, Holder took the name of his speech "Nation of Cowards" from the title of a prominent pro-gun pro-freedom book. Is that an accident?
The US-fueled drug war (yes, I'm now thoroughly convinced it's a horrible idea) is fueling Mexico's drug-fueled civil war which is creeping north.
http://rc3.org/2008/05/09/our-drug-war-feeds-mexicos-civil-war/
Me and mine want to move AS SOON AS POSSIBLE and live on 30+ acres (as we've always wanted, but are now quite pushed to action by reading "Surviving Y2K and Other Lovely Disasters", and other Boston books). Doing this might give us a chance at dying of old age.
I think we're going to need everything on this "Capability Checklist", which someone on here was kind enough to post:
http://www.alpharubicon.com/~kwll/
And we'd like to do it twice, as Boston suggests, having 1/2 twice rather than all in one place. None of that will be cheap.
We will look for private attorney work for Debra Jean (which also wouldn't guarantee "purity", think of all the heinous things you've seen private attorneys do in your life), but gov work in a non-JBT agency might be the best bet to accomplish all these goals.
I turn 45 in May. Debra Jean turns 50 while we're in Wyoming in June. A decade or so of "golden handcuffs" in WY might just give us a bit of a fighting chance to make a protectable nest for our golden years, and also to have something to pass on to those we love.
Anyway, my friend says "If two libertarians agree on anything, one of them has sold out his values." ;D
I remember being in Europe and having lib-anarchists berating me for having Windows on my laptop instead of Linux. Because running Windows was "supporting an evil corporation." They were running "pure" Linux. But they were running it on computers made by huge "evil corporations" and singing anti-gov anti-big business punk rock protest songs on electric guitars made by huge "evil corporations." (And they were often squatting in squalor and eating out of dumpsters because there was no "pure" work to be had.)
Everyone's hands are dirty in one way or another. It's just a matter of degrees, unless you live in a cave.
-- Michael "the world is going to hell, my dear, and I wish to step out of its way" Dean
<---- end rant ---->
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Everyone's hands are dirty in one way or another. It's just a matter of degrees, unless you live in a cave.
What a wonderful rationalization. One might call it the "universal rationalization", it can be used almost everywhere, and for everything.
Sure, OK, it's a matter of degree. I am not advocating living in a cave, or avoiding the use of roads. You can set your mind easy about that.
I will even admit that "working within the system" sometimes works. Example, homeschooling or concealed carry. While both have roots in "lawless" conduct, it's probably the case that they spread far and wide due in part to government "legitimizing" of them. And now the cat is out of the bag, and can't be put back. And "non-compliant" homeschoolers and gun carriers will win out in the end, I think.
But, there's a huge difference between making compromises forced on you by the system (due to lack of free alternatives, e.g. roads) - and feeding at the government trough when alternatives DO exist (e.g. government school). And there is a huge difference between that - and being part of the system. To be part of the system means you are a recipient of stolen money, just as disreputable (even more disreputable, in my opinion) as buying from the local fence selling stolen stereos. It means you get job security and a fat pension that people outside government can only dream of. It means your job depends on violence. If you are someone like a cop or building inspector, it means your job is violence. Violence, dolled up to look like protection.
And that thing about good teachers, to offset the bad ones? John Taylor Gatto, and most of the other founders of the homeschooling movement, were teachers for much of their lives. When were they right? When they were inside the system, trying to save kids? Or when they were outside, trying to get kids out? They finally recognized that the system did not want them! The only "good" the good teachers do, is keep the system going when it would otherwise have collapsed if they all left. Gatto and the rest are doing the right thing now, when they are outside the system, criticizing it, getting parents to pull their kids, setting up alternative, independent ways of teaching kids. NOW they are helping freedom. They sure weren't before they left the system.
Maybe FSP's goal is to get people in government positions. One can always run for the legislature - then refuse the paycheck. Then you still can look at that guy in the mirror every morning. Or, you can take those 30 pieces of silver.
Folks, the LP has become compromised even before they got into power. How libertarian do you think they'd be after getting comfortable in positions of power for a few years? "Meet the new boss; same as the old boss." It works the same for teachers, cops and everyone else. You can't remain virtuous in a vile place. You are not Jesus, not a saint. You are just a regular schmuck like the rest of us, able to rationalize any behavior at all.
The path to freedom is disconnecting from the system, as much as you possibly can stand to do. The path to freedom is by finding other ways to get things done. Don't take anything from it, don't give anything to it (willingly), and certainly don't become a part of it. The system can't be changed, can't be reformed. YOU however can be changed by it.
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Thanks Paul, I've been saying much the same for years now. I don't try to speak for anyone but myself, but that doesn't prevent others from misunderstanding what I say. My principles have not changed, but I've had to adapt to some hard realities in order to help others to understand those principles - such as being willing to teach the concealed carry class for the local Sheriff when I don't believe in the least that such a "permit" is moral. I've come to know the Sheriff here as a good guy, and just maybe have helped him (and some of the students) see liberty in a new light. Who knows?
So, each person must decide these things for themselves. We are each responsible for the consequences of our choices and actions. Few of them will be perfect, especially in retrospect, and few will meet any "purity test". We can work hard to meet that test ourselves, but we can destroy ourselves and all hope for peace trying to hold each other to OUR own idea of purity.
We must all be ready and willing to defend ourselves against aggression, but give careful thought to that, and to what that realistically includes. It's not always possible in the non physical world. Do we destroy our relationships by screaming at each other over different interpretations?
How does "live and let live" apply here? Maybe, in the absence of immediate, physical aggression, we must simply agree to disagree.
I don't know. Just asking.
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MNM, you and DJ do WHATEVER it takes to git yer a$$s here first and worry about the details later. Get the f@#% outa that stinkhole as fast as you can. ~W~ Once yer here you'll find that the word of mouth system still works better than all the web surfing. Good luck.
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Thank you!
Looking forward to meeting y'all.
We'll be driving around Wyoming a little before and after the Appleseed in June (which we're attending.)
Here are the places we'll be bunking (hotels, except camp for Appleseed.) If anyone is in these areas and wants to meet, at least for coffee, p.m. me please.
Provo, Utah
Gillette, WY
Upton, WY
Newcastle, WY
Upton, WY
Gillette, WY
Casper, WY
Cheyenne, WY
Durango, CO
Phoenix, AZ
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Thank you!
MWD and DJD
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Cheyenne? ??? I'm right over the hill in Laramie and I may have room for ya. I may have some other FSW guests at the time.
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Cheyenne? ??? I'm right over the hill in Laramie and I may have room for ya. I may have some other FSW guests at the time.
Very cool.
I think we're set for place to stay, but would love to come by and say hi.
Will ping ya when it's closer in time.
Thank you!
MWD
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So from Provo to Gillette have you decided on a route yet? Driving that all in one day ? Might be some folks along the way ?
Also Cheyenne to Durango, will that be mostly I-25 down through Denver or jumping off on the back roads a little ?
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So from Provo to Gillette have you decided on a route yet? Driving that all in one day ? Might be some folks along the way ?
Yes, in one day. But we'd certainly have to stop for lunch/dinner, if you want to meet us at a diner or somewhere not far from the highway.
Also Cheyenne to Durango, will that be mostly I-25 down through Denver or jumping off on the back roads a little ?
Yes, straight through.
I know we're missing the most scenic parts of Wyoming, but will see 'em all when we move there. We have a lot to do, and Debra Jean has a set amount of vacation time off work to do it. We will be at Appleseed both days, but other than that, we want to spend at least a night in the three largest cities, (and two nights in Cheyenne) to see what "feels right." Also maybe look at some houses for sale outside of town, maybe if we can set it up, have the wife meet with some lawyers for a pre-job interview. Also want to set up a showing of a film I made and give a talk in Cheyenne, hang out with a friend there, then go see relatives and friends in Phoenix.
Whew! I'm practically out of breath just typing that! Didn't seem like so much until I put it down in print.
I guess I still book travel routes the way we did when I was in a band. :D
MWD
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Sign we liked that we saw today on a nearby residential horse property driveway:
"We have five acres, a shovel, and a shotgun."
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Hello, Michael,
Do you know which route you'll be taking between Provo and Gillette?
From the mapping utility, the shortest and fastest is over South Pass from Rock Springs, Lander, Riverton, Casper, up to Midwest/Edgerton (387), up through Savageton (50) to Gillette. Better views, just as fast as I-80. Both Lander and Riverton have some really good eats - China Garden Buffet <$10 AYCE, El Sol in both Riverton & Lander.
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Sounds good to me. Added to our info. Thanks!
MWD
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...Also, for your wife, take a look at http://www.corneredcat.com/TOC.aspx This is a website by, for and of women who carry to defend themselves. Lots of good stuff about women's holsters and other carry concerns.
ML, Just discovered Cornered Cat. Been looking for information for friends who have been considering a firearm for home defense. I had sent them a copy of Mossad Ayoub's book on gun proofing children (http://ayoob.com/cgi-bin/miva?Merchant2/merchant.mv+Screen=PROD&Store_Code=Ayoob&Product_Code=GP&Category_Code=AMAB). I was pleased to find similar information at the Cornered Cat, as well as a lot of other information. Sent them the link.
I think many others would benefit from browsing and reading the entire web site.
Rustynail
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That's great! Also for women, there is a great forum (over 6,000 members) called Women & Guns: http://womenandguns.servertalk.in/index.php?mforum=womenandguns
There are even a few gentlemen who post there! LOL
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Wrangler.
7 belt loops, and perfect for mag pouch and holster orientation.
Boston
Wrangler 13MWZ pants. Just about the worst are 511 "tactical" pants and clones. The loops are too wide and in exactly the wrong locations.
As Boston said...Wranglers are setup perfectly for carry. The loops are wide enough for a double magazine holder to fit between them.