Free State Wyoming Forum

Free State Wyoming (FSW) Promotional => Making the Case for Moving Toward Freedom (and Wyoming!) => Topic started by: FDNYLiberty on April 08, 2011, 10:01:00 PM

Title: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: FDNYLiberty on April 08, 2011, 10:01:00 PM
I thought it appropriate to introduce this topic with a Jeff Cooper observation.

Boston

Quote
To present a full account of all of our adventures in the wonderful month just past would require a very thick log book. Let us just say that we had a nifty time touring the great mountain states in the lovely [Audi] S4 and seeing them at the peak of their spectacular fall colors. Not only is the "mountain redoubt" (Wyoming, Montana and Idaho) beautiful to see, but in addition it constitutes what may be the last refuge of dignity, decency and common sense in the United States (e.g. a bumper sticker we saw in Cody, Wyoming, announced, "Stop honking, I'm reloading.").
   The place names up in that country are a delight in themselves: Spotted Horse, Wounded Wolf, Recluse, Medicine Bow, and Dead Swede - among others.  This is indeed a grand region, but it is lonely. "People who need people" should look elsewhere.
   -- Jeff Cooper, 1998

___________

Ol' Remus posted an insightful analysis of J.W. Rawles 'American Redoubt' proposal.  A good read for sure.

REDOUBT
http://www.woodpilereport.com/html/index-210.htm (http://www.woodpilereport.com/html/index-210.htm)

Considering everything that has been happening in our country in the past few years - and now seemingly accelerating at lightning speed (around the world) - a few sentences within this article really grabbed my attention:

--------------------------------------------------------------------

"The classic path for the aware citizenry is to anticipate the catastrophe, retreat from easy reach of the regime and recoalesce into cooperative communities. Francis Porretto of Eternity Road put it this way in Part 5 of his Shape of Things to Come, (Note: Linked here: http://www.eternityroad.info/index.php/weblog/single/the_shape_of_things_to_come_part_5_the_worse_the_better/ (http://www.eternityroad.info/index.php/weblog/single/the_shape_of_things_to_come_part_5_the_worse_the_better/))

Obama knows exactly what he's doing. More important, he's sensed that he can use the reluctance of conservatives and libertarians to give true coloration to his program and the motivations behind it. We're simply too cowardly, most of us, to admit that America put a destroyer, an enemy of freedom, into the highest office in the land. That would reflect badly on far too many of us, wouldn't it?

Obama and his lieutenants are increasing that tension with every move they make. As it tightens on us, ever more Americans are retreating from civic involvement and resolving merely to protect themselves as best they can. The atomization thus evoked, wherein individuals are too suspicious of everything around them to repose trust even in their neighbors, is a perfect playground for a coherent, well focused program of totalitarian control.

We're past the point of fixing this with civic involvement. Now it's down to self preservation and nurturing the animus of Constitutional government."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just look at who is (now) in control of our government. This article sums up the reasons very nicely:

Joe McCarthy Would Have A Field Day
http://westernfrontamerica.com/2011/04/08/joe-mccarthy-field-day/ (http://westernfrontamerica.com/2011/04/08/joe-mccarthy-field-day/)

Reading Ole Remus's article (and James W. Rawles) gives me all the more reason to get off the east coast ASAP and out to the WY (or one of the other Mountain States) as soon as possible to be prepared and ready to defend our Constitution, Liberties and our Freedom.

FDNY Liberty
Title: Re: The American Redoubt
Post by: NiteRider on April 10, 2011, 10:23:54 PM
Here's Chuck Baldwin's take on the issue:

http://chuckbaldwinlive.com/home/?p=3285
Title: Re: The American Redoubt
Post by: Dennis Wilson on April 10, 2011, 10:46:08 PM
You might seriously reconsider your support of the Constitution after reading THIS book:

Book review: Hologram of Liberty
http://dennisleewilson.com/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=43.0 (http://dennisleewilson.com/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=43.0)

From: DennisLeeWilson-Ariz-Wyo  (Original Message) Sent: 8/18/2003 3:57 PM
This book review was copied from: http://javelinpress.com/holo.html [link no longer works]
 
Hologram of Liberty
The Constitution's Shocking Alliance with Big Government
by
Kenneth W. Royce (a.k.a. Boston T. Party)
 
Title: Re: The American Redoubt
Post by: NiteRider on April 10, 2011, 10:54:20 PM
Yep!

Read it.  Yet, BTP mentions in the book that it is still salvageable.
Title: Re: The American Redoubt
Post by: Dennis Wilson on April 11, 2011, 12:37:53 AM
The Liberty Amendment? (10/8) Or perhaps you had some other part in mind.

The book was written in 1997, before the Patriot Act and the Military Commissions Act and two undeclared wars and the Insurance Dictate and etc, all of which make it even more clear that the Constitution has either authorized what we have or been powerless to prevent it.

And since 1997, NOTHING has advanced the Liberty Amendment. If anything, it should be readily apparent from the events of the past 13 years, that, even if the Liberty Amendment somehow got passed, any and all limitations and restrictions upon the Federal government will be "judged" by the Federal judiciary--and found to have no merit.

Perhaps we could persuade Boston to add his thoughts "13 years after"..... :)
Title: Re: The American Redoubt
Post by: Boston on April 11, 2011, 07:02:14 AM
Thanks, Dennis.

The speech which I was to give at the now cancelled teaiii.org rally
would have address this head on.  Perhaps before the Jam I will write
it out as an essay and post, but I'm pretty busy from now through the summer.

Basically, the state governements have one last chance over the next 1-3 years
to firmly make their stand for a republican form of government.  After that, I
think some sort of "national emergency" (at least partly contrived) will lock up the nation.

In short, whatever guarded optimism I had in 1997 has been reduced by about 80%.

Boston
Title: Re: The American Redoubt
Post by: NiteRider on April 11, 2011, 12:38:00 PM
Which makes all the more imperative for freedom supporters to head to your region.
Title: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Boston on April 22, 2011, 12:59:53 PM
The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
http://www.survivalblog.com/redoubt.html

Quote
Your Checklist

I suggest that you follow these guidelines, as you prepare and then move to the American Redoubt:

Research geography, climate, and micro-climates very carefully.
Develop a home-based business.
Lighten the load. Keep the practical items but sell your junk and impractical items at a garage sale.
Bring your guns.
Sell your television.
Sell your jewelry and fancy wristwatch. Buy a Stihl chainsaw instead.
Choose your church home wisely, seeking sound doctrine, not "programs"
Leave your Big City expectations behind. There probably won't be cell phone coverage, high speed Internet, or Pilates.
Expect a long driving distances for work and shopping.
Sell your bric-a-brac and collectibles. What is more important? A large collection of Hummel figurines, or having a lot of good hand tools and Mason jars?
Switch to a practical wardrobe and "sensible shoes".
After your buy your land, convert the rest of your Dollar-denominated wealth into practical tangibles.
Begin homeschooling your children.
Sell your sports car and buy a reliable crew cab pickup.
Expect persecution and hardship. You will be despised for being true to your faith. (Just read 2 Timothy 3:1-12. and Matthew 5:10-14, and John 15:18-19.)
Encourage your kids to XBox and Wii less and read more.
Make a clean break by selling your house and any rental properties. You aren't coming back.
If you buy an existing house, get one with an extra bedroom or two. Some relatives may be joining you, unexpectedly.
Donate any older bulky furniture to the local charity store before you move.

After you move:

Don't try to change things to be like the suburb that you left behind. You are escaping all that!
Pitch in by joining the local Volunteer Fire Department (VFD), Ski Patrol, Sheriff's Posse, or EMT team.
Be a good neighbor.
Patronize the local farmer's market and craft shows.
Respect the property rights and the traditions of your neighbors.
Be active, politically, but use a pseudonym in letters to the editor an internet posts.
Use VPN tunneling, RSA encryption, firewalls, and anonymous remailers.
Support local businesses, and companies that are headquartered inside the Redoubt, not Wal-Mart.
Encourage like-minded family and friends to join you.
Stock up heavily on storage foods for lengthy power failures, or worse.
Do your banking locally, preferably with a credit union and/or a farm credit union.
Be active in local home school co-ops and service organizations.
Find and visit your local second-hand stores. Watch for useful, practical items that don't need electricity.
Conduct as much business as possible via barter or with precious metals.
Gradually acquire a home library that includes self-sufficiency books and classic books--history, biographies, and novels.
Join the local ham radio club. (Affiliated with the ARRL.)
Expect to be the subject of gossip. Live a righteous life so there won't be much to gossip about.
Loyally support your local church with tithes and support your local food bank.
Get used to eating venison, elk, moose, antelope, trout, and salmon.
Attend some farm auctions in your region to gather a good collection of useful hand tools and a treadle sewing machine.
Attend gun shows in your state. (This keeps money circulating in the state and keeps you legal, for private gun purchases.)
Choose your fights wisely. Don't tilt at windmills, but when you feel convicted, don't back down.
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: VFTR55 on April 22, 2011, 05:50:33 PM
Boston et al - if we might philosophize on the "liberty movements" in this country in-general:

It's been said that success consists of a series of little daily victories...and of course, success is subjective in a generalized context...

Given the financial architecture of the nation and the ebbing capital flows in the pipes, do you ever ponder "pulling a Jim Rogers" and just renouncing? If efficacy of personal economy is of primary focus, seems like jumping out of the warming oven is more effective. Surely it at least crossed your mind while in Africa...maybe that's too extreme of an example  ;) In a more general focus, as you learned from research for your GB4/15 work, one's sovereignty is a function of status, domicile, etc...

If people are moving to the mountain states in ever-increasing waves (which I'm sure they will be w/ the state bond melee in CA, NV, etc), but the big corporate titans already pull the strings in local & state gov't, just how effectively can the liberty movement gain ground under the pretense of spontaneous organization for voluntary association in government affairs? Money talks...anybody here keen on international finance? Or did I just say the f word?

Now that's a rambling patchwork of thought if I ever did one...would like to get some intellectual musing...

Boston: you just hit on this in your comment about "dual sovereignty" in the thread you did on the ZH article...Paul hit on it in the "little platoons" thread...

the thread about group prep for inflation and gas prices leads me to a conclusive pitch for all this...

FSW hedge fund, the executive arm of the BTP charitable foundation  (lower-case, that is; and, you might be surprised on what title 26 states on the necessary qualifications of a "charitable foundation") . Perhaps do a "community currency" like this group http://www.informedtrades.com/trades.php?page=points-guide . After struggling with the mechanics and concepts of the system for a bit, I've decided that the most effective thing I can do is learn to use the tools used against us on the international stage to lawfully improve the foundations of sovereignty through development of individual economy, be that individual a man or a group. Everybody on the forum is sitting on the internet all day anyway  ;D , how about some Japanese candlestick charts and Cox-Ross-Rubinstein drills in between firing range sessions?

don't tase me on this too hard, bro! Just stirring the pot ;D

Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Boston on April 22, 2011, 06:18:42 PM
Thanks for your interesting post!

I think that prepared and capable individuals working together locally
is about the only answer.  If they can also knit a strong vertically integrated
economy, especially with local money -- they'll be almost immune from
the worst of national/international complications.

Jim Rogers (whom I know) is an urbanite and not a shooter, so it was
easy for him to expat to Singapore.  The USA is still the best (so far)
for rural hardy types who are enthusiastic members of the gun culture.

Boston
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Paul Bonneau on April 22, 2011, 08:13:55 PM
Just to pick a few nits...  :-[

Quote
Sell your jewelry and fancy wristwatch. Buy a Stihl chainsaw instead.

Doesn't everybody have a chainsaw already? (I have two of them, both Stihls.)  :)

Also, Ferfal said jewelry is excellent "alternative currency", so it would be pretty silly to get rid of it.

Quote
Sell your sports car and buy a reliable crew cab pickup.

11 mpg pickups may be going the way of the Dodo if gas prices keep climbing.

Quote
Some relatives may be joining you, unexpectedly.

I'd rather have friends who "get it" than clueless relatives.

Quote
Pitch in by joining the local Volunteer Fire Department (VFD), Ski Patrol, Sheriff's Posse, or EMT team.

Great! In other words, become just another tax-eating government employee.  ::)

Quote
gather... a treadle sewing machine.

Are these still manufactured?  ???
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Crappiewy on April 22, 2011, 08:42:03 PM
Paul. You can still buy treddle type singer sewing machines brand new.
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: rhodges on April 22, 2011, 10:39:24 PM
J
Quote
Pitch in by joining the local Volunteer Fire Department (VFD), Ski Patrol, Sheriff's Posse, or EMT team.

Great! In other words, become just another tax-eating government employee.  ::)

When I was a volunteer EMT in Hulett, I neither saw nor heard of any tax money directly involved.  The only indirect tax money was from some of the patients who used Medicare.  Nor were there any employees, much less government employees.
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Paul Bonneau on April 23, 2011, 07:59:02 AM
I suppose it depends on the county. I checked out being a "volunteer" fireman in Park County. They are government employees, even get tax-funded pensions!  :(  I said to my friend there, who is one, that I am not interested in that, but if he ever needed help just dragging hoses around or whatever, to give me a call.
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: VFTR55 on April 23, 2011, 10:21:44 AM
If they can also knit a strong vertically integrated economy, especially with local money -- they'll be almost immune from the worst of national/international complications.

...The USA is still the best (so far) for rural hardy types who are enthusiastic members of the gun culture.
Boston

Immunity is a tall feat to accomplish, even with a well-integrated local economy that is scaled way down from what most Americans have come to take as the norm. Besides the occasional exchange of money/goods/services with the outside world for things that the scaled-down local economy needs to progress to its next milestone, the external governing laws of commerce and property will always be a thorn in the side for resistance vs "goin' along to get along."

Again, I guess it all depends on the definition of success. The crux of my pondering about success in building, sustaining, and growing a liberated community in the face of the overlords who hold all the cards, is: we're on their field, there is human capital holding voting rights via stock in land, deposits in local banks, etc, yet the prime movers hold majority voting rights via stock in commodity capital (coal, oil, other mineral reserves), declarations of future cashflow expectations from commercial transactions, etc...that's what woos the politicians. Add to that the international bondholders of the federally-owned lands and, well, it's even stickier.

A tricky adversary to flank, for sure, but strategy and success are open-ended here, and it seems that at least a modest improvement in tactical elevation could be achieved by more thoroughly scouting their terrain (i.e. their body of law - commercial, international securities, estate, etc) and securing a spot that gives more "coasting potential" for the vehicle of a private community. The beauty about some of the aspects of those legal bodies is that they're so modular like an Erector Set, a vehicle as open- or closed-ended as desired could be made (you know, don't want to forget the trunk hood so that freeloaders can't scurry up and pile in)  ;D
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Terence on April 23, 2011, 10:48:50 AM
VTR,

If one was. . .

. . . more thoroughly scouting their terrain (i.e. their body of law - commercial, international securities, estate, etc) and securing a spot that gives more "coasting potential" for the vehicle of a private community.

and found such a vehicle, wouldn't that vehicle, in turn, be subject to:

. . .the external governing laws of commerce and property . . .

[AND]

. . .the prime movers hold majority voting rights via stock in commodity capital (coal, oil, other mineral reserves), declarations of future cashflow expectations from commercial transactions, etc...that's what woos the politicians.

What sort of mechanism or vehicle did you have in mind?  A home or land owners association?

Interesting stuff,

Terence
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: VFTR55 on April 23, 2011, 08:00:19 PM
T,
  Yes, it would still be subject to the things mentioned, but everyone within U.S. jurisdiction already exists within that proverbial matrix anyway. This is just hunting for some more robust body armor...a defensive, bottom-up approach to hedge for risk of future individual rights encroachments in the general spirit of the existing lowest common denominator of belief here  i.e. no one advocates initiation of force, but maintaining the legal right to defend oneself and private property within the bounds of the law (assuming law serves and not enslaves, that is).

Obviously, one of the tried-and-true tactics in corralling an uncooperative adversary is to wear them down or overpower economically - the supports of local infrastructure will more than likely hold, but with external forces in play, over time, the established crowd that has been comfortably unaware of the fiscal turbulence & drought (i.e. capital supply disruptions) traveling through the adjacent pipelines (i.e. bordering states), forcing many to seek out less toxic watering holes in the local crowd's backyard...the locals will find that the inflows cannot be dealt with by forceful removal (e.g. can't put em in a bucket and dump em off over the state line! Can't pull the stopper in the drain opening!) You can overpower them at the voting booth on the micro-level stuff if the numbers are there, but over time, who knows...

Basically I'm suggesting that the FSW incorporate as an inter vivos, revocable private foundation, charitable lead, private annuity trust fund, or something else of the sort.   :o Now hear me out...

If FSW, as phobic to collective organization as we all are, could agree on a very loose repertoire of "product offerings" to put out in the local community to foster interest in the principles and activities of the libertarian movement, which would give rise to:

1) an operations branch - Rifleman shoots, homesteading, educational workshops on Ham radio, electronics & software (Linux emphasized), creative writing (Boston, there's your cue), etc...and generate revenues from such activities (up-front collection, donations, ChipIn funds on a FSW blog, wildlife rescue site, etc) gives rise to

2) the financing branch

...after costs of travel, materials, time, expertise, etc paid back to FSW members who put on such events, and marketing expenses (hopefully the net and local flyers take care of most of that)...the profits would be invested through

3) an investment branch - private investment company, not regulated by the SEC, only voluntary association and interpersonal contract. The investment portfolio could have three divisions common to all asset class investments: short-term (topped- or bottomed-out value plays on stocks or funds in commodities which investors have knowledge in), medium-term (trending stocks e.g. rare earths, oil & gas, etc), and, more immediately relative to the aims of garnering influence within local government... long-term (local muni bonds [tax-free], dividend or interest-paying shares in mineral royalty trusts, etc). A conservative money & risk management algorithm, minding any requisite maturity dates for one or more company members' shares, would be paramount

  - with this of course must come several substructures in the legal construction of the vehicle to protect other proverbial passengers, give them clear paths to entry & exit with minimal friction, etc...sounds like a lot, but people of principled understanding can frame up a structure without too many frivolous appointments and get the thing to serve its purpose without the roof falling on anyone's head.

...at first blush, this sounds like heresy for a libertarian/non-conformist-leaning forum I know  ;)


most of the effort in getting such a structure up would be the proverbial planning, grading, and foundation pouring, which would be a collaborative effort amongst the first crop of members to come forward with interest and resources to offer in helping to build the thing. Framing the structure in the trust would take some time, getting the plumbing loop logic for the financing and wiring the network of market exposure in FSW's circuit would be getting to the less intensive phases.


Shoot at this plane with whatever gun you want  ;D Just tossin ideas around.
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Boston on April 24, 2011, 05:57:06 PM
VFTR55, I appreciate your best wishes for the FSW, and your ideas to
further our success.

I continue to strongly believe that the more decentralized and individualized
the FSW remains, the more unstoppable of a relocation phenomenon it is.
We remain outside of regulations touching on banking, entity structure,
political campaigning, etc., etc.

We just a bunch of folks who love the West and Wyoming enough to move here.
Nothing fancy, and nothing graspable. 
Also, with no money to delegate, we entirely avoid fractious issues.

Those who wish to market the FSW, are invited to do so as they wish as FSWers
(vs. as the FSW), with their own time and money -- joined by whomever wishes. 
Perfect $ democracy, as you spend it as you wish.

Perhaps some of your organizational plans could be of real use as adjuncts
to our FSWness, and folks are welcome to start any kind of facilitating orgs
they wish.  PACs, educational foundations, etc.  Please post the news on
our forum and we'll try to promulgate them.

Regards,
Boston
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Terence on April 25, 2011, 01:09:07 AM
Shoot at this plane with whatever gun you want  ;D Just tossin ideas around.

Hey, when you're tossing ideas around it's great to have lots of them. Thanks for
a comprehensive answer, VTR.

Lots of stuff in your "Operations" category is of interest to me. When it comes to entities
or groups I'm a big fan of sifting through lots of ideas and being brutal in
honing it down to either one or zero. I think the advantage of that can be seen in the
opposite approach: A person listed on a dozen boards of this or chairmen of that
usually translates into doing nothing on everything. This is just
personal approach not a comment on your brian storming.

Since everything is on the matrix, as you say, one way to hone things down
might be to define what success look like, find a person or group in history that's
done it and reverse engineer their structure. How did the Amish get out
of Social Security? How were they opted out of Obamacare before the
monopoly creating exclusion list was even created?  Why do the police want nothing
to do with China town?  How do inmates ever get to the point of controlling a prison?
There's lots of game-theory type examples in nature, as well, depending on what's
trying to be accomplished.


Terence
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Paul Bonneau on April 25, 2011, 08:32:26 AM
Quote
Obviously, one of the tried-and-true tactics in corralling an uncooperative adversary is to wear them down or overpower economically -

Or just go around them. That is, don't even try to "corral" them. Better to keep a low profile and form "agoras".

I agree with Boston.

I like your gaming theory ideas, Terrence. There is a lot of research to be done in that area. There is also exposition; that's why I have been nagging Boston to do another book (or help me do one) showing how such communities could operate.  :)

BTW, Free State Wyoming got a mention in Rawles' latest article, 33 Ways to Encourage Atlas to Shrug (http://www.survivalblog.com/2011/04/33_ways_to_encourage_atlas_to.html).
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Boston on April 25, 2011, 09:27:12 AM
Quote
Since everything is on the matrix, as you say, one way to hone things down
might be to define what success look like, find a person or group in history that's
done it and reverse engineer their structure. How did the Amish get out
of Social Security? How were they opted out of Obamacare before the
monopoly creating exclusion list was even created?  Why do the police want nothing
to do with China town?  How do inmates ever get to the point of controlling a prison?
There's lots of game-theory type examples in nature, as well, depending on what's
trying to be accomplished.

Great idea, Terence.
I sort of did this with the FSW after watching liberals flood into Colorado and
change the state.  (Not that I want to change Wyoming, but further its already
libertarian leanings.)

___________
Paul, regarding your great idea for a book, I'm happy to help where
I can (timewise), but am too swamped to actually write it this year myself.

___________
New followup article by Rawles:

33 Ways to Encourage Atlas to Shrug
http://www.survivalblog.com/2011/04/33_ways_to_encourage_atlas_to.html

Boston
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: VFTR55 on April 25, 2011, 08:40:25 PM
Yet another attempt to lasso Boston into some sort of herd & he cunningly avoids - the dude does not abide  ;D Perhaps a parallel (un)organization like you suggest is best.

Paul: I was too vague with the allegory - bureaucrats as the corral'ers I meant.

Terence: my 1st guess is that the Amish as a unit are considered a tax-exempt religious private foundation per IRC, but I wonder about taxation of commerce w/ the outside world e.g. when they sell furniture to u.s. citizens...

...somewhere way up the chain of authority (or maybe simply as low the muni manager-level) somebody knows that the international commercial activity generated by Asian sources, encouraged locally via gov't subsidies, creates too many complications in trying to strike a balance w/ maintaining order in places like Chinatown (if/when needed), and generating revenue for their coffers without biting the hand that feeds them too hard.

Not trying to solve the prison riddle.

Anyway, yeah, there's several ways to skin the cat. I used Jim Rogers as an extreme (in the subjective-eyed) example.
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Danl on April 26, 2011, 02:57:24 AM
A comment about the Amish.........  The Amish I know have no written code that they follow, other than say, the Bible.  Each community, or settlement as they call them, determines among themselves what their particular, group or settlement, is going to practice in the way of rules (ordnung).... generally they are not even written down, rather they are generally agreed by the group.  A leader is established for a time, usually an older well established person.

Quote
Ordnung - definition - All aspects of Amish life are dictated by a list of written or oral rules, known as Ordnung, which outlines the basics of the Amish faith and helps to define what it means to be Amish. For an Amish person, the Ordnung may dictate almost every aspect of one's lifestyle, from dress and hair length to buggy style and farming techniques. The Ordnung varies from community to community and order to order, which explains why you will see some Amish riding in automobiles, while others don't even accept the use of battery-powered lights. attribute->  http://pittsburgh.about.com/cs/pennsylvania/a/amish_2.htm

The advantage for the Amish is that there is really no structure, at least formally, and certainly not legally by this group of people.  However most of the Amish groups that I know of are caving in to the pressure from the government to obtain SSNs and birth certificates, or at least, what is called an, IRS number that is supposedly not a SSN but is supposed to be an ID number  they can use without obligation to pay SS taxes.  They are getting sucked in because they want bank accounts and loans etc and banks just will not go along with accounts with no 'tax ID number' to put in the blank even tho they are allowed to by law.  They just do not want to buck the system authorities.  It is like an 'unwritten' rule for banks that if they try to go around the "expected" behavior the "audits will increase until compliance with our expectations is observed."

Regards, Danl ~W~
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: manfromnevada on April 26, 2011, 10:02:05 AM
Danl said:
They are getting sucked in because they want bank accounts and loans etc and banks just will not go along with accounts with no 'tax ID number' to put in the blank even tho they are allowed to by law.  They just do not want to buck the system authorities.  It is like an 'unwritten' rule for banks that if they try to go around the "expected" behavior the "audits will increase until compliance with our expectations is observed."


I had first hand experience in this regard with an annuity company that sent me a letter some years back saying that "because of the PATRIOT Act, we can no longer accept cash, cashier's checks, drafts, or cash equivalents." They made it sound like the government had mandated their new rules. So I called them and asked them exactly which part of the USA PATRIOT Act said they couldn't accept cashier's checks. Well . . . . it's because . . . . that is . . . well, it's not actually the PATRIOT act directly, but we have a POLICY. I told them I'd like a copy of that policy since I'm a customer. They said they'd get back to me. They didn't. So I wrote a letter. They finally said they wouldn't share the policy. It was internal use only. Lowly customers need not apply to see it. It's all for my protection of course.

And so it goes.

Mac
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Crappiewy on April 26, 2011, 11:22:10 AM
Just try to open a new bank account today. They want to know ALL about you. And if something doesent match exactly, they want written explainations as to why they dont match. I have only one account left myself. Ive had it since 1976. They have been sending me letters at first once a year but today it is every month demanding my SSN. I said no. One of these days they will probably cancel it.
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Terence on April 26, 2011, 12:06:45 PM

I sort of did this with the FSW after watching liberals flood into Colorado and
change the state. 

And the 'structure' you settled on was Optimal, IMO  ~W~

[A book] showing how such communities could operate.

Great idea (And timing) for a book on that subject.

The folklore of frontiersmen having to work from sunup to sundown is devoid of
cooperation with others.  That missing ingredient and means of exchange(s) and
the good life doesn't have to lead to an early work-a-holic grave.

Aborigines, Indians, A bulletin board virtual agora. . .wolfpacks?  ;D

Terence
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Herk on April 28, 2011, 11:50:48 AM
Just opened my first bank account in this country today.

(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p185/tabgobbler/feels-bad-man.jpg)

What makes it worse is that I'm now putting what remains of my 'taxable' income into it.  :-\
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Boston on April 29, 2011, 09:46:39 AM
Quote
Yet another attempt to lasso Boston into some sort of herd & he cunningly avoids - the dude does not abide   Perhaps a parallel (un)organization like you suggest is best.
LOL!
Thanks,

Boston
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: FDNYLiberty on May 26, 2011, 10:54:02 PM
A "thought provoking" analysis of JW Rawles' "American Redoubt" article by Arctic Patriot:

Thoughts on the "American Redoubt" and Secession...
(Thoughts on the "American Redoubt", posted by Rawles, linked at WRSA.)
By Arctic Patriot

http://arcticpatriot.blogspot.com/2011/05/thoughts-on-american-redoubt-and.html (http://arcticpatriot.blogspot.com/2011/05/thoughts-on-american-redoubt-and.html)
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: LtE327 on March 09, 2012, 02:56:58 PM
MOST interesting, especially the Constitution Con article that can be found above.  Lots of new things in there that seem to make a lot of sense.  I may have to change my little slogan below, after some more research, of course.  FREEDOM is still my religion, but maybe the US Constitution shouldn't be my Bible !!
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Dennis Wilson on March 09, 2012, 10:37:32 PM
...maybe the US Constitution shouldn't be my Bible !!

 :D Amen.... (OMG!  I can't believe I really said that.... :o )
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Terence on March 09, 2012, 11:42:49 PM
. . .  I may have to change my little slogan below, after some more research, of course.  FREEDOM is still my religion, but maybe the US Constitution shouldn't be my Bible !!

I like your style and felt the same way after reading Boston's HOL.  It occurs to me after reading your post that
the capacity for reviewing and reintegrating long-held beliefs is more likely to shown by those who are freedom oriented.

Terence
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: AgoristTeen1994 on March 10, 2012, 03:17:01 AM
Two interesting comments from that post on the Arctic Patriot blog:

Quote
Been watching this trend the last few years, talking to junior guys (first hitch) about their training; and peacekeeping operations within US has become a recurring topic, and they are trained that they will do it.

So what to us older folks is repugnant, has been made a certainty. This new mission suddenly appeared (with twisted legal justifications) a few years ago, and the new guys buy into what they are told, by and large.

Asking about army role during Katrina leads to many young guys explaining 'that most people don't understand' ...., and they lay out the same set of justifications they have been briefed on, and how they've been told they will be needed for this role in the future. One is a fluke. 200 is a sudden onset of a trend. Both army and marine corps? That's planning.

Based on the folks I talk to and their reactions, I would estimate that 85% of junior DoD goes against FreeFor. Years ago- It would have been reversed. But now it is trained. The culture of the junior guys is being driven from 'fighting for freedom' to 'fighting as apparatchicks in support of the regime'.



Quote
Two thoughts on the strategic level.

First, if a group of people want to actually secede, they need to think not just about terrain in regards to tactics, but the value of land they have and what the value is of it to their opponents. At the heart of 'American Redoubt' in Montana is one of America's largest and most strategic nuclear missile silo complexes. Do you think that this country, or any other country like China or Russia, would allow a bunch of 'patriots' to secede with such an asset? It would go ugly early, and if they had to they would simply bomb, gas, or shake and bake all the redoubters and take back the region around such facilities. If this government wasn't up to the task, they would likely call in China, Russia, the UN, or whomever to help (think about what they are doing now overseas and extrapolate...). Doing war in the US will be very handy for the government as aircraft from local bases can just sortie from home, maybe with the use of a tanker or two, and still have dinner with their families. Posse comitatus wold not apply, it was rescinded anyway in the 2007 defense authorization act.
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Terence on March 10, 2012, 07:14:39 PM
Two interesting comments from that post on the Arctic Patriot blog:

Quote
Been watching this trend the last few years, talking to junior guys (first hitch) about their training; and peacekeeping operations within US has become a recurring topic, and they are trained that they will do it.

So what to us older folks is repugnant, has been made a certainty. This new mission suddenly appeared (with twisted legal justifications) a few years ago, and the new guys buy into what they are told, by and large.

Asking about army role during Katrina leads to many young guys explaining 'that most people don't understand' ...., and they lay out the same set of justifications they have been briefed on, and how they've been told they will be needed for this role in the future. One is a fluke. 200 is a sudden onset of a trend. Both army and marine corps? That's planning.

Based on the folks I talk to and their reactions, I would estimate that 85% of junior DoD goes against FreeFor. Years ago- It would have been reversed. But now it is trained. The culture of the junior guys is being driven from 'fighting for freedom' to 'fighting as apparatchicks in support of the regime'.

85% is way high from the results of the 29-palms questionnaire. Not to take away from the core truth of this guy's comment: That  it's
surprisingly quick, generation-wise, to get guys (Americans) hypnotized into zombiehood.

Quote
Two thoughts on the strategic level.

First, if a group of people want to actually secede, they need to think not just about terrain in regards to tactics, but the value of land they have and what the value is of it to their opponents. At the heart of 'American Redoubt' in Montana is one of America's largest and most strategic nuclear missile silo complexes. Do you think that this country, or any other country like China or Russia, would allow a bunch of 'patriots' to secede with such an asset? It would go ugly early, and if they had to they would simply bomb, gas, or shake and bake all the redoubters and take back the region around such facilities. If this government wasn't up to the task, they would likely call in China, Russia, the UN, or whomever to help (think about what they are doing now overseas and extrapolate...). Doing war in the US will be very handy for the government as aircraft from local bases can just sortie from home, maybe with the use of a tanker or two, and still have dinner with their families. Posse comitatus wold not apply, it was rescinded anyway in the 2007 defense authorization act.

The land is extremely valuable.  What is your take on your above quote, AT?

Terence

Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: AgoristTeen1994 on March 10, 2012, 07:35:30 PM
Terence I personally have to agree with the second quote I posted...while the land itself is valuable what with the various resources and space to move a growing population into....I think in the U.S. .gov thugs eyes, the most valuable part is the nuclear missile silos....if it comes down to a war of secession, they will try their damned hardest to get the armed forces to fight tooth and nail to maintain hold of those nuclear missile silos, and if they lose control, to recapture them. I have no problem believing if they were to lose control of the silos they would unleash something like VX or Sarin on the area to clear out of "insurgents" and wait until the nerve gas breaks down due to the weather before moving right back in. Some may call me paranoid or a crazy for believing that but when you've seen as much of my peers-in-age-only as I have, and humanity in general, you tend to get pretty damn cynical and misanthropic very quickly. I mention my peers-in-age-only due to the fact that THEY will be the solider the U.S. gov't will be using...the old geezers (no offense) would refuse to go against their morals in most cases...the new guys however....can easily be brainwashed into following any orders that come down from above like bugs....and doing anything that will help prevent the gov't from losing control of the "Vaterland"

It's sad really. So many people my age have had their anti-authoritarianism crushed, and pushed to be mindless sheeple from a variety of sources.
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Terence on March 10, 2012, 08:19:28 PM
Terence I personally have to agree with the second quote I posted...while the land itself is valuable what with the various resources and space to move a growing population into....I think in the U.S. .gov thugs eyes, the most valuable part is the nuclear missile silos....if it comes down to a war of secession, they will try their damned hardest to get the armed forces to fight tooth and nail to maintain hold of those nuclear missile silos, and if they lose control, to recapture them. I have no problem believing if they were to lose control of the silos they would unleash something like VX or Sarin on the area to clear out of "insurgents" and wait until the nerve gas breaks down due to the weather before moving right back in. Some may call me paranoid or a crazy for believing that but when you've seen as much of my peers-in-age-only as I have, and humanity in general, you tend to get pretty damn cynical and misanthropic very quickly. I mention my peers-in-age-only due to the fact that THEY will be the solider the U.S. gov't will be using...the old geezers (no offense) would refuse to go against their morals in most cases...the new guys however....can easily be brainwashed into following any orders that come down from above like bugs....and doing anything that will help prevent the gov't from losing control of the "Vaterland"

It's sad really. So many people my age have had their anti-authoritarianism crushed, and pushed to be mindless sheeple from a variety of sources.

Thanks for a thorough and complete answer, AT. Accepting your view that people your age have been crushed so, yes, it
is sad. I'm glad to hear your untainted answer before this particular 'geezer' reacts to the same quote.

There's a Tokyo Rose vibe to the second quote you posted. Though I don't doubt the speakers' sincerity there's a kind of "RESISTANCE IS FUTILE"
thrust to it. The people who choose to be in the mountain states are the least likely to be uninformed on any given aspect
of their choice. By definition they have everything at stake. The fact, form, timing, mask of their resistance/non-resistance is
unknowable.

Terence
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Crappiewy on March 11, 2012, 08:11:36 AM
About the missle silos. There are just as many silos in Wyoming as in montana.There are many silos. but few missles and even fewer warheads for the missles. The airforce plays a constant game of russian roulett, moving warhead from missle to missle and missles from silo to silo. There could be as few as 50 missles left in 150 of the 450 silos today scattered throughout Wyoming. Montana, Colorado and Nebraska, south dakota and north dakota. The land based missles today are our immidiate response force. The majority of our missles are sub launched and cruise missles.

If a state should leave the union it would take a very short amount of time for the Air Force to retrive the warheads. It is a non issue
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: AgoristTeen1994 on March 11, 2012, 09:36:46 AM
Thank you for that bit of info Crappiewy....however 50 nuclear warheads is STILL a lot of firepower...and the the U.S. .gov thugs would still fight tooth and nail to maintain control of them and if they ever lost control, too then regain that control...and while it may take a short amount of time for the Air Force to retrieve the warheads, that's assuming there isn't anything preventing them from doing so.
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Crappiewy on March 11, 2012, 10:59:44 AM
There is not much that can stop them.
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Thomas Prendergast on July 07, 2012, 01:30:44 PM
My 2 cents. (If it comes down to us against the US military we will lose, but)

I moved here for three reasons.

I subscribe to Gerald Celente and have for a very long time. Got out of many jams early 'cause I took action from his alerts.

1. In several of his newsletters 4 years or so ago he predicted the balkanization of America and that the surviving remnant of true Constitutional era America would be 3-5 states that being Wyoming at the heart with (in order of likelihood) Montana, North Dakota, Idaho, South Dakota, Utah and Nebraska.

2. There is a Christ based calling to the area in the Big Horn I have found myself. As I have lived here now for almost 4 years many of my neighbors also confirm this. I did not bring it up, but that is how I finally got here.

3. America is under judgment and the coasts are particularly worse as that is were the concentration of rebellion, idolatry, carnolatry, materialism, homosexuality, socialism and just about everything else you can imagine that rebels against and angers our Lord Almighty.

Have you read the book "The Harbinger" or are aware of the parallels America is on with Israel 2500 years ago? See Isaiah 9:10

This whole crap fest with the coming NWO, Soros, Obamanations, Fascism in the police state of America, etc. is not just a coincidence.

I am in a serious state of repentance, prayer and preparation as this is the mother of all spiritual wars coming at us like a freight train.

Wyoming is the best place to draw the line and fight for God's promise and protection for our liberty.

Just my opinion men and women. But I have seen the Glory of the coming of our Lord!

Thomas

P.S. If you want the book (and can not afford it) I will buy one and ship it to you as my gift. Just PM me your desire and address.

http://www.theharbinger-jonathancahn.com/Book/
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Boston on July 08, 2012, 04:03:17 PM
Hi Thomas,

Thanks for your thoughtprovoking post and kind book gift offer.
I hope that Wyoming and the FSW benefit your plans!

Blessings,
Boston
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: kingskid on July 09, 2012, 06:26:26 AM
Quote
My 2 cents. (If it comes down to us against the US military we will lose, but)

I moved here for three reasons.

I subscribe to Gerald Celente and have for a very long time. Got out of many jams early 'cause I took action from his alerts.

1. In several of his newsletters 4 years or so ago he predicted the balkanization of America and that the surviving remnant of true Constitutional era America would be 3-5 states that being Wyoming at the heart with (in order of likelihood) Montana, North Dakota, Idaho, South Dakota, Utah and Nebraska.

2. There is a Christ based calling to the area in the Big Horn I have found myself. As I have lived here now for almost 4 years many of my neighbors also confirm this. I did not bring it up, but that is how I finally got here.

3. America is under judgment and the coasts are particularly worse as that is were the concentration of rebellion, idolatry, carnolatry, materialism, homosexuality, socialism and just about everything else you can imagine that rebels against and angers our Lord Almighty.

Have you read the book "The Harbinger" or are aware of the parallels America is on with Israel 2500 years ago? See Isaiah 9:10

This whole crap fest with the coming NWO, Soros, Obamanations, Fascism in the police state of America, etc. is not just a coincidence.

I am in a serious state of repentance, prayer and preparation as this is the mother of all spiritual wars coming at us like a freight train.

Wyoming is the best place to draw the line and fight for God's promise and protection for our liberty.

Just my opinion men and women. But I have seen the Glory of the coming of our Lord!

Thomas

P.S. If you want the book (and can not afford it) I will buy one and ship it to you as my gift. Just PM me your desire and address.

http://www.theharbinger-jonathancahn.com/Book/

Hello Thomas,

As another believer, your post resonated with me.  Can you expand more on the area you live in and the kind of Christian influence there?  If/when I sell my place, I haven't decided what part of Wyoming to move to and am open to other areas besides Crook and Weston counties.  PM if you want.  Thanks!

Kingskid
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Terence on July 09, 2012, 11:32:17 AM
If/when I sell my place, I haven't decided what part of Wyoming to move to and am open to other areas besides Crook and Weston counties.

That's smart if only to prevent buyers remorse. Wyoming is a big state and my wife and
I did thousands of miles of driving and research before deciding on our locations. That
may sound like work but it comes with lots of fun adventures and knowledge.

A caveat: Time was on our side and afforded the luxury of the exploration. Depending on
your intuition it's possible to collapse some time by talking with some very informed
FSWers. Better yet, talk with three or four!

Terence
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Thomas Prendergast on July 09, 2012, 01:46:38 PM
I have always been self employed. Up until 1995 it was always a brick and mortar business, the last being an ad agency in the San Francisco Bay area in the 80s with 35 employees, lawsuits, tax audits, and all the other crap one suffers doing business in America and especially in the Socialist State of California (God sink that place deep into the ocean soon, please).

When the Internet launched, I was there before Al Gore was, (I wrote a book about this), I started building up to build income and business from and based on the Internet.

This allows me to live anywhere I want as long as there is Internet access for me.

So I chose to live in the Big Horn Basin up close and personal to the Big Horns for so many reasons and inspired to do so.

It is possible to and the benefits are huge having this freedom. Anyone can achieve this life style with dedication and patience.

My company 'Veretekk" is the company built to empower people that want to have this freedom and lifestyle.

I detest Liberals and Statists. If I have to move to a deserted island to get away from both I will, but in the area I live right now I have only seen one Obama sticker and that is the art school teacher's car at the local public school (I forgive her as she is totally inept when it comes to critical thinking).

I can write volumes about how this country is under judgment due to the current disarray the USA has allowed herself to become from the rot and filth that has collected in her beams and foundations with the likes of Barack and Michelle Obama, Barney Frank, Bill and Hillary Clinton, Maxine Waters, Henry Waxman, Harry Reid and the list goes on forever.

I can feel a rant coming and I have a ton of work to do with my company.

So I will leave it at this. I needed solitude and time to spend in serious repentance and prayer with my Lord. This area I live in does that. I need quite and very dark starry nights to spend hours gazing into to heal my broken soul and this area is healing me. I needed neighbors that are conservative and solid and self sufficient with strong independence and firm handshakes and I have that too.

Can you feel the love?

Thomas

 
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Thomas Prendergast on July 09, 2012, 01:48:34 PM
I cant PM you Kingskid, the system will not let me. Maybe because I am still the new kid on the block around here.

Thomas
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: kingskid on July 09, 2012, 09:02:52 PM
No problem, Veretekk.  I get you.

Good advice, Terence.  If this place sells, I won't be in any hurry to buy another for some time.  Home ownership ties one down, so will just go with the flow.  Wyoming works for me, but the mountains beckon more than the hills...guess Colorado has left its imprint on me in that way.  But, that could change. 

Kingskid
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Terence on July 10, 2012, 12:42:16 PM
I cant PM you Kingskid, the system will not let me. Maybe because I am still the new kid on the block around here.

Thomas

Easily changed, Thomas.  Apparently, you've already done the things the SOFI asks one
to promise. Just post yours for more expanded access to the forum:
http://www.fundamentalsoffreedom.com/fswforum/index.php?topic=5283.0

Thanks for the Cahn book recommendation.  It's available for audiobook download for $9.99
and look forward to listening to it.

Terence
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Terence on July 31, 2012, 12:40:45 PM

Radio Free Redoubt: "The Voice of The American Redoubt"

A Communications Network and Radio show for "The American Redoubt".
http://www.fundamentalsoffreedom.com/fswforum/index.php?topic=13485.msg118489#msg118489
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: BonnieGadsden on August 09, 2012, 09:07:26 AM
I've been waiting for an opportunity to move to the American Redoubt, Idaho specifically.  My problem was finding employment.  A solution to my problem is taking shape with the establishment of the III Arms Company in Idaho.  This company will be the hub for a new community of American Patriots to radiate from.

I am working on getting my effects in order.  I will be joining you all in the Redoubt soon!

www.facebook.com/IIIArmsCompany (http://www.facebook.com/IIIArmsCompany)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-D3D2CBPKCbE/UCLEAoCrviI/AAAAAAAAAUw/Ym2ZXVJQglg/s1600/iii-arms.jpg)
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Thomas Prendergast on August 29, 2012, 10:12:08 PM
I have been busy here in the Big Horn Basin. My company was contacted by a "billionaire" impressed with what we have built.

He has contracted me and my company to run a campaign.

But before I get into what it is and how it could benefit many wanting to move here or those living here needing a hand up with income......

Can I advertise this campaign on this forum?

I do not see banners or such here.

Thomas Prendergast
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Terence on August 30, 2012, 09:57:01 AM
I have been busy here in the Big Horn Basin. My company was contacted by a "billionaire" impressed with what we have built.

He has contracted me and my company to run a campaign.

But before I get into what it is and how it could benefit many wanting to move here or those living here needing a hand up with income......

Can I advertise this campaign on this forum?

I do not see banners or such here.

Thomas Prendergast

That would be Boston's call, Thomas, and he'd probably want more specifics
in a PM. Keep in mind we're planning a forum software upgrade which would probably
be necessary for banners and such.

Terence
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: 300dragonflies on August 30, 2012, 07:06:08 PM
I'd like to move back to the northern Rockies somewhere, instead of the southern Rockies where I am right now. It's greener and wetter up there, for one thing!

The only things holding me back right now are trying to figure out where, and when. Will we be able to make a controlled move on our own initiative and in our own timing, moving such supplies and belongings as we'd like to have with us, or will it turn into a last-minute fleeing with only what fits on or in our vehicle?

I hope I have a few years or so to get ready so it can be a considered, thoughtful move - hopefully with a job lined up, for at least the first phase of the operation - rather than fleeing into the unknown, forced to survive on our wits and with what little we will have with us!

That said, here's the dilemma....ideally, we'd like a little acreage in order to be able to do some food-growing, maybe rabbits or chickens, etc. ... perferrably not too close to town, either. But those places are hard to find, and generally out of the question financially. Many of them are huge "vacation resort" type homes, when we'd just need a small place, maybe 1000 - 1200 sq ft tops if there was a root cellar or storage shed. We'd need jobs to be able to even save up a down payment and make payments, as the logistics of a move and living expenses until jobs are located (and perhaps the ever-present "first and last month's rent plus deposit") will take up most of the funds we'd have available.

How do other people manage to do it???
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Paul Bonneau on August 30, 2012, 08:05:03 PM
I doubt you have a few years. Even 1 year is a stretch in my opinion (which ain't worth much).

It's really not good to be a refugee. Much better to stay put and try to improve your situation locally (you already have the connections and contacts you need to survive). As long as you are not in New York or Chicago, or something like that, you should be OK.
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: 300dragonflies on August 30, 2012, 08:21:16 PM
I doubt you have a few years. Even 1 year is a stretch in my opinion (which ain't worth much).

It's really not good to be a refugee. Much better to stay put and try to improve your situation locally (you already have the connections and contacts you need to survive). As long as you are not in New York or Chicago, or something like that, you should be OK.
What about a place without much water or rain, so growing food is difficult? :(

I had a garden a couple of years ago, and spent more on water than I would have spent just buying the meager amount of veggies I managed to grow!

We are saving food, but eventually that needs to be replaced, i.e., growing more.
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Terence on August 30, 2012, 10:18:53 PM
How do other people manage to do it???

Renting or purchasing modestly is the usual way.  How about a
work for land lease kind of thing?  Help a large landowner work their
land in return for a place to park your new RV.

There were several people from northern Colorado at the jam that seemed
pretty motivated to get out of there.  Why do all this work to get to a place
where these informed people want to leave?

Terence
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Cyclonesteve on August 30, 2012, 11:42:29 PM
As long as you are not in New York or Chicago, or something like that, you should be OK.

I doubt you'll have to worry much about NY or Chicago long term. The bridges over the Mississippi are falling apart and Illinois doesn't have the money to fix them.  :o And thats as they are now, to say nothing about someone giving the bridges a little help.  ;)
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: 300dragonflies on August 31, 2012, 08:44:52 PM
How do other people manage to do it???

Renting or purchasing modestly is the usual way.  How about a
work for land lease kind of thing?  Help a large landowner work their
land in return for a place to park your new RV.

There were several people from northern Colorado at the jam that seemed
pretty motivated to get out of there.  Why do all this work to get to a place
where these informed people want to leave?

Terence

I suppose I am concerned more about my profession - office work - not paying that well...and there is a limit to how much you can trim expenses.

As to northern Rockies...I was thinking either Wyoming or Montana, not Colorado. The Rockies go all the way up through British Columbia and Alberta, you know! I used to live in the northern Rockies in Montana, ages ago, so that part of the country has a warm place in my heart.
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: AtomsInMotion on September 01, 2012, 02:53:46 PM

What about a place without much water or rain, so growing food is difficult? :(

I had a garden a couple of years ago, and spent more on water than I would have spent just buying the meager amount of veggies I managed to grow!


Not sure where you are now, or where your top choice to end up is, but here's a couple ideas for you:

Greenhouses are fantastic and you could work one depending on where you land, if it's in Wyoming. You can grow anything indoors, too, you just need a basement, and extra room, or even a well-insulated shed. (Plus, you can do it year-round.) As for water shortage, don't be too shy when it comes to collecting water! Of course, the land and naturally-occuring plants need it too, but you can catch just enough for the garden you have and leave some to it's natural course, too.

Jobs: Office work doesn't pay much, you're right, but there are jobs out there- you just may need to work more hours than you want to get that jump start on a down payment.

I'm moving soon to WY, will be renting to start, and working as many hours as possible to save for my big and small goals. I figure I'd rather physically be where I want to be while reaching these goals than save up elsewhere and wait til the last minute to move.

Good luck to you as you figure it out, I hope you find a great place for your gardening. Until then, research indoor growing- it's feasible anywhere! 

Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: 300dragonflies on September 01, 2012, 08:33:59 PM
We're in the desert here. Average annual rainfall is 7" with usually most of that in the summer, but we're far less than 2" this summer so far. I think maybe an inch at most - probably far less. That means we have to water trees, shrubs, etc. just to keep them alive. Trees are dying all over town because they aren't getting enough water to survive...and portions of the "mighty Rio Grande" are dry this year. We've had several years of drought in a row now - puts the midwest drought to shame.

Neither my significant other nor I have any grass at our homes - just trees (for shade) and a few shrubs. Nobody has basements here - all the homes are built on slabs - but we might be able to grow stuff in an underutilized room at his place.

Food's going to be expensive this winter and early next year, that's for sure! It would be nice to grow some.
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Cyclonesteve on September 01, 2012, 10:34:50 PM
Nobody has basements here - all the homes are built on slabs

I've never understood that. Basements double you square footage at much less cost than the main floor, they are cool in the summer, don't freeze even if not heated in the winter. The only reasons I can see to not have a basement is if the water table is high, your to broke to add it or you're "building" a mobilehome.
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: AtomsInMotion on September 01, 2012, 11:25:00 PM

- but we might be able to grow stuff in an underutilized room at his place.


Sounds like your green thumb is craving a greener, wetter environment. Until then, give that underutilized room a shot- it can't hurt. Good luck!
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: 300dragonflies on September 02, 2012, 12:51:51 PM
How about mostly flat terrain, and very loose, sandy/silty soil, requiring expensive trench boxing to dig a basement?

When they build a home here in the high desert, first they lay out the outside dimensions. Then they trench for the pipes (flexible plastic, mostly, for water, and more conventional for waste) and lay those in, along with trenching for the footing along the outside wall. They put up a wood form on the outside of that wall, but not the inside. Then, with the ends of the pipes sticking up, they pour the whole footing, foundation, and porch at once.

It is much faster and cheaper than the methods they'd have to use for construction of a traditional basement!

That said - I agree with you about the benefits of a basement. The only homes I've lived in with basements, though, were in Alabama (build early 60s, daylight basement), Connecticut (probably built in the 40s, a cellar-door-access basement), and in Seattle (built 1895-1898, daylight basement). The rest of the homes I've lived in, in Washington, Michigan, Louisiana, Alabama, California, Montana, and here in New Mexico, were either slab-built or built over a crawl space.

(I think most mobile home installations are done over a crawl space rather than on a slab.)
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Paul Bonneau on September 03, 2012, 08:41:48 AM
Truth be told, none of the Rockies are great for growing anything but trees. Irrigation is big in Wyoming, but that water ain't cheap, and not accessible to most people anyway. The places I've lived in Wyoming ran about 14 inches per year of precipitation, and a lot of that fell in solid form and blew away to Kansas after it fell.  :P

Greenhouses are a very good idea in this region, and the water can be recycled (e.g. hyproponics). Also keeps the critters off your vegetables.
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: 300dragonflies on September 03, 2012, 11:16:22 AM
14 inches a year is double what we get here, in a normal year. This is the third drought year in a row, so it's not "normal" by any means. I'd guess we might be around an inch so far this year, here. Two at the most. Normal would be 4 or 5 inches by this point in the year.

Though it's too hot here in the summer for a greenhouse - maybe we could grow food in one in the winter in a greenhouse, though. Have to think on that. January would be too cold but the rest of it might not be. Summer highs can be over 100 in May and June...and in the upper 90s in July and August, when it tends to cloud up a bit in the afternoon. Even September has highs in the low 90s.

Water is the issue, though. All of it, here, comes from a tap. In most rural places, it comes from a well - and you don't want to pump your well dry, just trying to grow some food!

Time to put on my thinking cap about how to grow food at or in a minimally-heated-in-the-winter, no-A/C-in-the-summer suburban home...and maybe install a wood stove in one room, with the exhaust pipe installed in the fireplace chimney, as a backup heating/cooking source.

Sheltering in place might be possible, if water from the tap doesn't go away.
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: BrianMyers on November 20, 2012, 01:51:41 AM
My 2 cents. (If it comes down to us against the US military we will lose, but)

I moved here for three reasons.

I subscribe to Gerald Celente and have for a very long time. Got out of many jams early 'cause I took action from his alerts.

1. In several of his newsletters 4 years or so ago he predicted the balkanization of America and that the surviving remnant of true Constitutional era America would be 3-5 states that being Wyoming at the heart with (in order of likelihood) Montana, North Dakota, Idaho, South Dakota, Utah and Nebraska.

2. There is a Christ based calling to the area in the Big Horn I have found myself. As I have lived here now for almost 4 years many of my neighbors also confirm this. I did not bring it up, but that is how I finally got here.

3. America is under judgment and the coasts are particularly worse as that is were the concentration of rebellion, idolatry, carnolatry, materialism, homosexuality, socialism and just about everything else you can imagine that rebels against and angers our Lord Almighty.

Have you read the book "The Harbinger" or are aware of the parallels America is on with Israel 2500 years ago? See Isaiah 9:10

This whole crap fest with the coming NWO, Soros, Obamanations, Fascism in the police state of America, etc. is not just a coincidence.

I am in a serious state of repentance, prayer and preparation as this is the mother of all spiritual wars coming at us like a freight train.

Wyoming is the best place to draw the line and fight for God's promise and protection for our liberty.

Just my opinion men and women. But I have seen the Glory of the coming of our Lord!

Thomas

P.S. If you want the book (and can not afford it) I will buy one and ship it to you as my gift. Just PM me your desire and address.

http://www.theharbinger-jonathancahn.com/Book/


Thank you for the inspirational quote, Thomas. 

Everything I've been reading is so thought provoking and inspirational that I struggle to put my feelings into words! 

My new journey started with a deep desire to leave Wisconsin because of the Socialist/Progressive movement, Union mentality, and corruption.  It seems like so many people in WI are complicit or complacent.  I've been a truck driver for 20 plus years, which has allowed me to see much of the country, so thought I knew what I liked and didn't like.  I had a desire to be in N.W. Texas because of the culture.  My daughter (13) loves winter sports and couldn't stand the thought of being away from snow, so she brought up Utah.  My wife is an outstanding Christian woman; she would follow me to the end of the earth and my son is to young (9) to really care much one way or another, just as long as we are all together, he's happy.

In an effort to keeping this short, we decided on North Phoenix, Arizona because it was dry and less than three hours away from snow.  I must say that I have become rather disappointed in the culture here.  People don't talk to one another much, and God is not at the center of their lives, which was one of my issues I had with Wisconsin.  It's not that we don't like it here, but after 6 months, I can see that it's just not what we want and/or expected.  The problem is that we don't fit in well.  I can also see the Californification here in AZ too :(   My wife and I are too Libertarian and I'm not much for the GOP, and the Democratic Party is nothing more than Communist to me.  I've also noticed that God isn't the center of people's lives like I had hoped it would be here in AZ, which was one of my problems with Wisconsin (for the record, I have friends that are pro-liberty Atheists).

A Liberty minded Libertarian friend of mine from New York mentioned BOSTON'S book, "Molon Labe".  He told me that I would love the book and his energy made me order it that day.  I've had the book for three days now and I am half way through!  It's difficult to put down, and I am not much of a reader.  The book spoke of the FSP, which I knew about, but there was no way I was moving to the East Coast!  What I didn't know about was the Wyoming FSP.  I am so very disappointed that I didn't know because I'm 90% sure we would be in Wyoming right now had I known.  I searched the world over for a freer State and I only considered four because of their gun laws; Alaska (expensive & too far away), Texas (humidity), Arizona (very hot), Utah (LDS). I figured the most Libertarian/Conservative would have the least restrictive gun laws...I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but we could have done worse!

If things don't improve in the coming months, we may pull up roots again and by next Fall, be in Wyoming.  I would rather live dirt poor and FREE than have all of the things nice things I have and live under the tyranny of Socialism.  I forgot to mention just how much I love firearms...I know what keeps American free!

P.S  Please pray that God shows us His path, and may it lead to WY.

Blessings,

Brian Myers
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: 300dragonflies on November 20, 2012, 07:18:45 AM
I'm worried about the country. I'm worried that the pressures I'm under here...job, house, vehicle, financial issues...will keep me from moving somewhere that is more free. I'm worried that I might not find the person I need by my side in order to make it through the rough times that are coming.
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: manfromnevada on November 20, 2012, 09:22:57 AM
Brian,
Nice to hear from you and your journey.
Perhaps you have not reached your final destination. Who know what final really is? Except for the grave of course!
I'm very happy here. It's not perfect, never will be, but close enough to what I want. Crook County is pretty high on the freedom index as far as I'm concerned.

Keep looking around the forum and posting.
Glad to hear you're "here".

Mac
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: BrianMyers on November 20, 2012, 01:17:16 PM
Mac,

Thank you for the acknowledgement and the welcome.  ;D 
I read in one of the postings that land is very expensive, and housing is hard to come by because of the oil boom(?).  I also remember something about working on a ranch and having the ability to park an RV their while working.  I would very much like to speak with someone who can give me more details about working on a ranch.

I'm not so sure that I'm staying on topic here...


Regards,
Brian
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Old Ironsights on November 20, 2012, 01:48:47 PM
Well... everything is relative.

Is WY Land expensive?  Compared to where?

Is housing expensive?  Are you putting a Double Wide on a piece of $100/acre (-water) land, or are you buying a condo in Jackson?

Regardless, in the end, you will Win by living here... unless you bring "there" with you when you come HERE. ;)
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: manfromnevada on November 24, 2012, 09:25:01 AM
Brian,
Just came across this thread today. Didn't mean to ignore you!
Oil boom? There's an oil boom in ND, not here. When I came here 6 years ago there was a big CBM boom and coal boom in Campbell County (Gillette). Workers were staying in hotel rooms! The boom is over. Natural gas prices have plummeted. And Obama and his associates continue to harass the coal miners and users.

If you read the many postings that Kelly has taken the effort to put here, you'll see a wide range of properties and housing.

I don't know anything about ranches. Sorry.

Mac
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Boston on November 24, 2012, 06:05:34 PM
Hi Brian,

You did fine for your first relocation, as Arizona is a very good state
with a strong gun culture.  But, as you're figuring out, Wyoming has
more to offer you.  Come out for a look, and stay in touch so that
we can meet you both.

 ~W~
Boston
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: BrianMyers on November 24, 2012, 06:39:34 PM
Boston & Mac,

Thanks for the info, advise, and most of all, the encouragement. 

Arizona isn't what it's cracked up to be.  I am a little disappointed to say the least.  I feel that there are too many GOP hacks here and the Patriot movement is a mess because of the enormous egos and back biting. 

I do love the dry air, as humidity kicks my tail.  I could take or leave the snow, but the rest of my family misses snow quite a bit...Christmas w/o snow will be interesting because Thanksgiving w/o the cooler air and smell of burning leaves was a bit of a downer!  I also love the fact that I can carry any way I wish w/o being hassled as is not the case in Wisconsin.  Our move to AZ was a change for the better, but I am thus far reading that Wyoming could be a better fit for us!

Regards,
Brian
Title: Re: The American Redoubt
Post by: warytraveler on January 05, 2014, 06:42:30 PM
I'm heading this way myself.
Which makes all the more imperative for freedom supporters to head to your region.
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Novak on January 08, 2014, 09:41:12 PM
Arizona isn't what it's cracked up to be.  I am a little disappointed to say the least.  I feel that there are too many GOP hacks here...

...I also love the fact that I can carry any way I wish w/o being hassled as is not the case in Wisconsin.  Our move to AZ was a change for the better, but I am thus far reading that Wyoming could be a better fit for us!

Regards,
Brian

Brian, if you're looking for a libertarian paradise, you're not going to find it in Wyoming.  Wyoming is full of party hacks, but I think that's true of anywhere.  No, Wyoming isn't great because it is a stronghold of those seeking to limit the size of government, it is great because it has some of the lowest taxes, least restrictive gun laws, and fewest "nanny state" laws in the country.  It has some of the most beautiful scenery and best hunting in the world.  I also believe that Wyoming has more of a culture of self-reliance than most other states, which I view as a good thing.

I would hate for someone to move to Wyoming because they thought that it was something it is not, but that doesn't mean that Wyoming isn't a wonderful place.  Of all of the places I've lived, Wyoming is at the top of my list.
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Dennis Wilson on January 08, 2014, 10:09:32 PM
What is a GOP hack? I moved to Arizona in 1961 and I don't think I ever met one.

Perhaps it was because I wasn't looking for one.  Been too busy enjoying my freedom and the weather. 

Why ruin a perfectly good day looking for politicians?
 ;)

Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: stoky on January 09, 2014, 08:00:53 AM
What is a GOP hack?  ;)
A knee jerk neocon, with their head in a '60s sit com. Rah rah big.gov war on something or other, pro crony crapitalism, with their own little fiefdom rigged just the way they like it (except it would be nice if the slaves were cheaper). 
The sort of putrid pachyderm that snickers at a parliamentary double reverse on Dr. Paul and fronts the "conservative" android from Taxachusetts for prez. 
(http://www.shahidulnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/dead-elephant-5802-corrected1.jpg)
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Cyclonesteve on January 09, 2014, 07:58:02 PM
What is a GOP hack?  ;)
A knee jerk neocon, with their head in a '60s sit com. Rah rah big.gov war on something or other, pro crony crapitalism, with their own little fiefdom rigged just the way they like it (except it would be nice if the slaves were cheaper). 
The sort of putrid pachyderm that snickers at a parliamentary double reverse on Dr. Paul and fronts the "conservative" android from Taxachusetts for prez. 

I'm kind of getting the idea that you don't like GOP hacks. Say it ain't so. ;)
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Novak on January 09, 2014, 08:04:40 PM
What is a GOP hack? I moved to Arizona in 1961 and I don't think I ever met one.

Perhaps it was because I wasn't looking for one.  Been too busy enjoying my freedom and the weather. 

Why ruin a perfectly good day looking for politicians?
 ;)



Yeah, pretty much what stoky said.  To me, a "GOP hack" is someone who thinks that Republican-controlled government is good and Democrat -controlled government is bad - "party not principles" types.
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Cyclonesteve on January 09, 2014, 08:07:54 PM
Yeah, pretty much what stoky said.  To me, a "GOP hack" is someone who thinks that Republican-controlled government is good and Democrat -controlled government is bad - "party not principles" types.

That's a pretty good description.
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: stoky on January 10, 2014, 07:04:38 AM
What is a GOP hack?
(http://www.theblogmocracy.com/wp-content/uploads/Chrisfat.jpg)
(http://freepatriot.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/christie-obama.jpg)
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: Terence on February 26, 2014, 10:56:10 AM


"The American Redoubt" now has a wiki page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Redoubt

With links to. . .

-Christian Exodus
-Free State Project
-Free State Wyoming
-Free West Alliance
-Homeschooling
-Patriot movement
-Political migration
Title: Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
Post by: amaksimes on March 04, 2014, 10:37:39 AM
AFAIK, our own BTP seems to have forecasted this about 10 years before? The FSW was the beachhead. Too bad the FSP was so fixated on the NE USA as there will be no regional redoubt out there!