Free State Wyoming Forum
Prospective Free State Wyoming (FSW) Members and Interested Parties => Prospective Free State Wyoming (FSW) Members and Interested Parties => Topic started by: jhamilton1769 on April 27, 2012, 02:39:33 PM
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First off let me open by saying I have nothing but respect for those of you who have managed to live your entire lives by your principles without any hiccups along the way. I unfortunately have not. In fact it is only in the last few years, which I have spent much time reading and reflecting, that I have even put much thought into moral principles and the question "what sort of man do I want to be" as opposed to the question where do I want to be in X number of years.
My current moral dilemma regards the "honoring your agreements" part under what your group is looking for. You see I am a newly minted debt slave and I feel defrauded by my society and the adults that urged me to take on the student loans. Its a long story and mine is definitely not the same as many you will find in the OWS crowd. To make a long story short I feel a degree of responsibility unlike the OWS crowd to pay back at the least the principle of what I borrowed for an education but current laws recently amended in 2001 deny all bankruptcy protections and the government has me over a barrel, knows this and is unwilling to work with me. What irks me is the interest and penalties combined with the high taxes the government is hitting me with here in NYC, I pay state city and federal taxes on income as well as transit taxes built into utility bills and a 10% local sales tax. On top of this I see bailouts left and right for people who borrowed for what I consider less noble ventures such as large homes they could not afford. What do you FSW members think? Would I be a poor fit with the FSW movement if I just dropped everything for a Spartan bare bones libertarian lifestyle in Wyoming? Would you find me apprehensible for playing hard ball with Uncle Sam and not honoring my agreements because I feel defrauded? If any of you needed more information I don't mind providing pertinent details such as those regarding my work ethic i.e. did I do my due diligence in picking a major that would enable me to pay back the debt? Did I do my best to keep costs low? so forth.
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First off let me open by saying I have nothing but respect for those of you who have managed to live your entire lives by your principles without any hiccups along the way. I unfortunately have not. In fact it is only in the last few years, which I have spent much time reading and reflecting, that I have even put much thought into moral principles and the question "what sort of man do I want to be" as opposed to the question where do I want to be in X number of years.
My current moral dilemma regards the "honoring your agreements" part under what your group is looking for. You see I am a newly minted debt slave and I feel defrauded by my society and the adults that urged me to take on the student loans. Its a long story and mine is definitely not the same as many you will find in the OWS crowd. To make a long story short I feel a degree of responsibility unlike the OWS crowd to pay back at the least the principle of what I borrowed for an education but current laws recently amended in 2001 deny all bankruptcy protections and the government has me over a barrel, knows this and is unwilling to work with me. What irks me is the interest and penalties combined with the high taxes the government is hitting me with here in NYC, I pay state city and federal taxes on income as well as transit taxes built into utility bills and a 10% local sales tax. On top of this I see bailouts left and right for people who borrowed for what I consider less noble ventures such as large homes they could not afford. What do you FSW members think? Would I be a poor fit with the FSW movement if I just dropped everything for a Spartan bare bones libertarian lifestyle in Wyoming? Would you find me apprehensible for playing hard ball with Uncle Sam and not honoring my agreements because I feel defrauded? If any of you needed more information I don't mind providing pertinent details such as those regarding my work ethic i.e. did I do my due diligence in picking a major that would enable me to pay back the debt? Did I do my best to keep costs low? so forth.
Welcome to the board. You are of course welcome in Wyoming too.
As far as the student loans go, I too am in your boat. I am dealing with them as best as I can. However, am doing so for practical reasons, and not for any moral reasons. As products of a corrupt system, we were duped into believing that college was the "only avenue to success." When you enter into a contract that is fraudulent from the get go, the contract is null and void.
I agree that not allowing people to Bankrupt out of student loans is disgusting if person's circumstances warrant it. The Founding Fathers banned debtor prisons and put bankruptcy in the Constitution as they didn't want people to become permanent debt slaves.
Have you looked into Income Based Repayment (IBR)? It is not well advertised, but it can help with the student loan payments. Check out: http://www.ibrinfo.org/.
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Just my 2 cents worth...
Do some serious reading here at the forum. Get to know the folks here as well as you can. PM and "talk" to some who interest you, perhaps. Plan to make a visit here so you can look us over, and we can get to know you face to face.
What you do about your debt problem is strictly your business, and few of us are going to stand in judgment over you about that or anything else that doesn't involve aggression. You are the man who has to face the guy in the mirror each day... and he is the ONLY one you must satisfy as to your integrity and worth. Ever...
Do as you think right, harming none. You'll fit in fine. :)
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Sad to say that probably 95% of the US has been in your shoes in some form and one time or another. If you have no children and single you could just jump on it and live a very minimalist lifestyle and work 2 or 3 jobs and just get out of debt--and then never take on debt again. "The man in the mirror" might be better off just taking on this beast and slaying it. I too had student loans but at the time there were programs that were work for service in underserved areas--if there had not been we would have been in the same boat.
In the end as Mama says you have figure out what will help and hurt only you the most.
Brandy ~W~
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Welcome jhamilton!
So you've been "defrauded"? How's that exactly?
You borrowed money from the government (taxpayers or China), signed the agreement, and now you have to pay it back?
You were of legal age when you signed? Yes?
People change. Times change. But don't delude yourself thinking you were taken advantage of.
That's like the people who took out home loans on homes they couldn't afford, expecting the price to go up, and now that they haven't, and their homes are under water they are screaming that the "big banks" defrauded, tricked, and coerced them into taking out a loan on a house. I'm sure they are still carrying bruises from when the banksters took them into the back room and beat them with bamboo until they signed.
Oh,don't get me wrong. We all love freedom. And I'm hoping you've seen the light as to the government handouts, endless spending, and the strings attached.
Only you can tell if it's a "good fit" here. Look around. Post some thoughts and responses. See how it goes. We demand nothing and expect nothing but a civil discussion of ideas.
Mac
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jh - You need to get the hell out of NYC as fast as possible. That place is a festering cesspool of crony criminals (to call them crony capitalists is to besmirch capitalism). If you're not on the inside of the graft, you're just so much litter to be swept up and tossed into the trash.
Make up your own mind about the student loan repayments - don't tell anyone else about it and it will be a non-issue. The more you talk about it the more you open yourself up for criticism.
You don't say what your degree is in. That's mighty important. Are you willing to ignore it and go work in an open pit coal mine? Or wrangle cattle? Or drive a truck? If you're going to be picky about how you make money, you shouldn't move here. Folks in Wyoming generally work hard. The pay is good, but it's not a 9-5 desk job world.
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Welcome jhamilton!
So you've been "defrauded"? How's that exactly?
You borrowed money from the government (taxpayers or China), signed the agreement, and now you have to pay it back?
You were of legal age when you signed? Yes?
People change. Times change. But don't delude yourself thinking you were taken advantage of.
That's like the people who took out home loans on homes they couldn't afford, expecting the price to go up, and now that they haven't, and their homes are under water they are screaming that the "big banks" defrauded, tricked, and coerced them into taking out a loan on a house. I'm sure they are still carrying bruises from when the banksters took them into the back room and beat them with bamboo until they signed.
Oh,don't get me wrong. We all love freedom. And I'm hoping you've seen the light as to the government handouts, endless spending, and the strings attached.
Only you can tell if it's a "good fit" here. Look around. Post some thoughts and responses. See how it goes. We demand nothing and expect nothing but a civil discussion of ideas.
Mac
The entire banking system is a fraud. The money system is a fraud. The banks bribed politicians to get the tax payers to incur the risks associated with student borrowing, and to take away constitutional protections for student loan borrowers. Those market distortions are what created this mess and destroyed the natural checks and balances on borrowing/lending. The student loan debacle is scam and a fraud. You should look into the issue at depth, I think you will change your position if you do.
A good book to read on the subject is The Student Loan Scam: The Most Oppressive Debt in U.S. History. http://www.amazon.com/The-Student-Loan-Scam-Oppressive/dp/0807042293
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Welcome to the club.
Since going back to school to get the "degree" that was supposed to make me more marketable and help me get a job that would pay enough to keep my wife off of Social Security Disability, I have made LESS per year than I did without the degree averaging less than $24K/yr.
I have never considered NOT paying it off, but what pi$$es me off is that the Student Loan Scam is the ONLY debt that cannot be refinanced regardless of what the markets are doing.
When I graduated in 2000, my loans were set at 8.25%. In 2002 the Rate for student loans dropped to 2%. Guess what I've been paying for 12 years.
Couple that with being under/un-employed that whole time and, even while paying I've been forced to capitalize an extra $16K to my loans.
That is a crock. If I had been able to ReFi to 2% I'd have actually been able to pay down some of the principle... but that's not how the Government set it up.
So, my advice is, don't get married to anyone with a medical condition unless you are earning six figures because there are a lot of self righteous people out there who will sneer at you for your "choices" (should have known better than have the audacity to get married to someone with a chronic, but treatable condition) and not being able to even make the interest payments on your loan.
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I have never considered NOT paying it off, but what pi$$es me off is that the Student Loan Scam is the ONLY debt that cannot be refinanced regardless of what the markets are doing.
Exactly! The bankers that issue student loans bought protectionist legislation through lobbying. That legislation did two things:
1. It shifted the lenders' liability and risk to the taxpayers.
2. It removed constitutionally granted bankruptcy protections for citizens.
That led to:
1. The banks eliminating most underwriting criteria and they began making risky loans they would not have done before.
2. The cost of college tuition skyrocketed, due to the added demand for the services made possible for easy college loans. Many of those students simply dropped out anyways.
Both the banks AND the education establishment bombard students from the earliest ages with the propaganda that they the only way they can succeed in life is by going to college.
And when you combine that brainwashing with no financial education at any level, students don't have a chance.
It's a racket. And yes, I pay my student loans. That doesn't make it any less of a racket.
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Just my 2 cents worth...
Do some serious reading here at the forum.
I am glad I took your advice here.
I have been popping in every once in a while to see what sort of things people were saying regarding my OP. The topic of student debt is personal and therefore emotionally charged for me, and I wanted to resist the self defeating urge to defend myself from criticism without reflection when there might be some wisdom hidden in said criticism.
I have just finished reading "the 11 principles of open source peaceful evolution" as well as the commentary pertaining to said document and am glad I did so before responding. Much of the commentary form this thread touched upon the very moral/philosophical issues I am trying to work through and if I hadn't read this first I certainly would have looked the fool trying to explain concepts in my retorts that most of the posters here are clearly already familiar with. Once again, thanks.
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The topic of student debt is personal and therefore emotionally charged for me, and I wanted to resist the self defeating urge to defend myself from criticism without reflection when there might be some wisdom hidden in said criticism.
No worries. The system lies continuously about how a college degree is necessary. A degree shows obedience. The question becomes "why or where do I need to prove my obedience?"
There is fraud. People lied to you. Where you go is up to you.
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Mea Culpa regarding the multiple posts from myself, I am new to this type of technology. I am a introvert by nature and, generally don't seek out others much, so I had never used it. I had intended to continue down the list of comments after my first reply to mama.
"The man in the mirror" might be better off just taking on this beast and slaying it.
Brandy ~W~
You might be on to something here. First I would have to get over myself though, I am as stubborn as a mule and don't generally respond well to negative reinforcement (force or agression as the FSW forum likes to put it) which is precisely what I feel the government is trying to use with their "do what we say or else stance" regarding my student debt. They would do better to convince me that I actually owe all of the money plus interest and penalties but that would never happen because the politicians think they are human gods capable of commanding blood from a stone. Heck when I wrote to my senators, Kerry and Kennedy since I was still a MA resident attending university at the time, regarding the patriot act and my concerns they didn't even bother to respond with a generic letter from a secretary. I sent a long pleading letter begging them to reconsider signing away more of our liberties and they were deaf to their constituent.
So you've been "defrauded"? How's that exactly?
You borrowed money from the government (taxpayers or China), signed the agreement, and now you have to pay it back?
You were of legal age when you signed? Yes?
I prepared a response to this one but it was probably too long and personal for this forum. It ended up being a 2 page MW doc. and I wasn't even finished. Perhaps the "PM" feature mama mentioned earlier is in order? Not sure exactly what that stands for but I have some inkling its a more direct form of digital communication?
jh - You need to get the hell out of NYC as fast as possible. That place is a festering cesspool of crony criminals (to call them crony capitalists is to besmirch capitalism). If you're not on the inside of the graft, you're just so much litter to be swept up and tossed into the trash.
Make up your own mind about the student loan repayments - don't tell anyone else about it and it will be a non-issue. The more you talk about it the more you open yourself up for criticism.
You don't say what your degree is in. That's mighty important. Are you willing to ignore it and go work in an open pit coal mine? Or wrangle cattle? Or drive a truck? If you're going to be picky about how you make money, you shouldn't move here. Folks in Wyoming generally work hard. The pay is good, but it's not a 9-5 desk job world.
Fully agree about NYC. Just for all your amusement I have some recent NYC tid bits to share from personal experience:
Most commonly heard phrases I have heard here walking the streets and riding transit are... regarding government taxes and events in the local trashy newspapers "it is what it is" "what u gonna do" and "My babies daddy" clearly apathy is alive and well.
Most commonly advertised services on mass transit are for non-accredited colleges offering degrees to these same people "even if you don't speak English or have a GED! no problem, for the right price you too can "earn" a degree!
Regarding your question about my degree. I started off as a high school dropout; upon entering college I couldn't have told you what a block quotation was. I earned my associates at a 2yr remedial college in criminology and law. High marks allowed me to transfer to a four year university. Once there I wanted a greater challenge and was pleasantly surprised to learn I was capable of and actually pretty good at math. I was worried about being able to pay back the debt at this point so I asked my guidance councilor what to study to achieve this, we settled on Business Administration which she told me the mean pay for from my school was $50K plus for recent graduates-this was before the "recession". I graduated with honors May 2007 and moved to Brooklyn NY where my fiancée was from. Upon arriving I found that most hiring HR "managers" didn't know my Boston based school, Suffolk University, was not in Suffolk county NY. I was also thrilled to find out that the most common degree being offered by the local non-accredited "schools" was my degree, lucky me! Recently there was an article in the WSJ titled "universities rethink the value of a business degree". As to the type of work I am willing to do, I will do anything honest. My first job was at 13 holding up carpets for an auctioneer. Since then I have always worked up until post college. I have worked on the back of dump trucks, done sheet metal work related to HVAC, shingled and framed houses, hung doors, drove taxi, cooked in restaurants and bars and a few other things in between. My stongest natural talent is cooking, I can recreate most dishes by taste and learning various ethnic dishes has been the one thing I have enjoyed in this city.
As for not telling anyone about my loans, you are right I won't unless solicited and/or one on one. I just didn't want to feel like I was hiding anything as I am proud of my accomplishments. This was my self introduction and I thought not holding back would be a good show of faith in others decency. Also I find it hard not to because in addittion to not being ashamed, I worked damn hard, I think the issue is one that should be addressed as it is the next big industry/bubble that will burst due to government meddling.
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J. - You should be able to send a "PM" - private message - to any of us now - can't remember how many posts required for that, but I think it was 5 or 7.
I do hope you have read as much as possible in the other areas of the forum as well. Lots of information about Wyoming, as well as glimpses into our daily life. Quite a few "introverts" here, but very few of them post to the forum, not surprisingly. You'll have to come meet them. :)
Anyway, hope you can come out to the annual campout we call the Jamboree. End of June.
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... Quite a few "introverts" here, but very few of them post to the forum, not surprisingly...
I post on the Forums because I'm an introvert. (Clinically, I'm an Aspie and run off the "I" scale on the MBTI.)
I'm not at all comfortable around people, but I can express myself openly on a forum - mainly because "small talk" is not a social requirement here.
(http://rlv.zcache.com/small_talk_is_verbal_spam_2_mug-p168345763019437318enunr_325.jpg)
http://www.zazzle.com/small_talk_is_verbal_spam_2_mug-168345763019437318?gl=Old_Ironsights&lon=90&rf=238502404168437739
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I have never considered NOT paying it off, but what pi$$es me off is that the Student Loan Scam is the ONLY debt that cannot be refinanced regardless of what the markets are doing.
Exactly! The bankers that issue student loans bought protectionist legislation through lobbying. That legislation did two things:
1. It shifted the lenders' liability and risk to the taxpayers.
2. It removed constitutionally granted bankruptcy protections for citizens.
That led to:
1. The banks eliminating most underwriting criteria and they began making risky loans they would not have done before.
2. The cost of college tuition skyrocketed, due to the added demand for the services made possible for easy college loans. Many of those students simply dropped out anyways.
Both the banks AND the education establishment bombard students from the earliest ages with the propaganda that they the only way they can succeed in life is by going to college.
And when you combine that brainwashing with no financial education at any level, students don't have a chance.
It's a racket. And yes, I pay my student loans. That doesn't make it any less of a racket.
Congress removed bankruptcy protections, refinancing rights, statutes of limitations, truth in lending requirements, fair debt collection practice requirements (for state agencies) and even removed state usury laws from applicability to federally guaranteed student loans. Congress also gave unprecedented powers of collection to the industry, including wage, tax return, Social Security, and Disability income garnishment, suspension of state issued professional licenses, termination from public employment, and other unprecedented collection tools that are used against borrowers for the purpose of collecting defaulted student loan debt.
Concurrently, Congress established a fee system for defaulted loans that allows the holders of defaulted loans to keep 20% of all payments from borrowers before any portion of the payment is applied to principal and interest on the loan. In the absence of fundamental consumer protectionsthe borrower's only available recourse is to submit to a hugely expensive "loan rehabilitation" process whereby they are forced to make extended payments (which are almost never applied to the principal or interest on the loan), and then sign for a new loan to which additional fees are attached. This effectively obligates the borrower to a much larger debt than when the loan defaulted, often double, triple, or even more than the original loan amount.
This leaves the borrower in a far more distressed position than before rehabilitation, and more likely to default again. There are no other options for the borrower to resolve the debt, regardless of any other factors, including the validity of the default itself (there is no appeals process for challenging determinations of default).
This fee system and associated rehabilitation schemes have provided a massive revenue stream for a shadowy, nationwide network of politically connected guarantors, servicers, and collection companies who have greatly enriched themselves at the expense of misfortunate borrowers, it has caused immeasurable damage to millions of borrowers and their families, who see what started as an unmanageable debt become a financial cataclysm- that debilitates, marginalizes, and ultimately relegates them to a lifetime of financial servitude and despondency in many cases.
Indeed, Sallie Mae's own annual reports provide compelling evidence of dramatic profiteering from defaulted loans: In the 2003 annual report, The Sallie Mae CEO brags to shareholders in the opening remarks that the company's record earnings that year were attributable to collections on defaulted loans. The company's "fee income" increased by 228% between 2000-2005, while their managed loan portfolio grew by only 87% during the same time period.
It is a matter of record that lenders actually defaulted student loans without even attempting to collect on the debt! In 2000, Sallie Mae paid $3.4 million in fines as a result of the U.S. Attorney's office discovering that the company was invoicing for defaulted loans where the borrower was never contacted. Rather, records were fabricated to indicate that the borrower had been contacted. Similar cases were settled with Corus bank and Cybernetic Systems.
There is also some evidence that suggest this tendency to default borrowers is by design rather than a mere result of circumstance. In 2007, an employee of the Kentucky Higher Education Assistance Authority, KHEAA, contacted StudentLoanJustice.Org by email, and submitted that the agency managers had purposely marketed loans to poor, disadvantaged communities in the expectation that these citizens would default on their loans, thus be "on the hook" for the fees and penalties that would result-extractable through garnishment of the income sources mentioned previously. This raises serious concerns, as it clearly implicates KHEAA in engaging in predatory lending. The text of these communications was forwarded to the Department of Education, and it is unknown what, if anything, resulted).
Obviously, collection companies prefer that loans default. Guarantors clearly share this preference. That lenders and collection companies also share this financial motivation is sufficient, to characterize the lending system as predatory, since the lending system clearly has both motive and means to act in such a way as to encourage default, rather than being motivated to act in a way that avoids default.
An unbiased observer should rightly object here, and point out that there is governmental oversight that should prevent this sort of activity. After all, at the end of the day, these defaults must certainly be a drain on the taxpayer...right?
Wrong. It was reported in January 2004 by John Hechinger (WSJ) that for every dollar paid out in default claims, the Department of Education would recover every dollar in principal, plus almost 20% in interest and fees. Further, supplemental materials in the president's 2010 budget show a recovery rate for defaulted FFELP loans of about 122 %. This is the amount recovered compared to the amount of the loan at the time of default. Compare this recovery rate to that for defaulted credit cards, which is usually about 25 cents on the dollar, and one can see that defaulted loans are clearly not costing the Department of Education money. In fact, simple, comparative analysis shows clearly that the reverse is indeed the case. In other words: The Department of Education is making more money on defaulted loans than loans which remain in good stead.
Therefore, all entities involved: The lenders, the guarantors, the collection companies, and even the Department of Education and its agents have a financial incentive for student loans to default...and this all is a direct result of the lack of consumer protections and the draconian collection powers that exists uniquely for federal student loans as described above.
http://studentloanjustice.org/argument.htm
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Exactly! The bankers that issue student loans bought protectionist legislation through lobbying. That legislation did two things:
1. It shifted the lenders' liability and risk to the taxpayers.
2. It removed constitutionally granted bankruptcy protections for citizens.
That led to:
1. The banks eliminating most underwriting criteria and they began making risky loans they would not have done before.
2. The cost of college tuition skyrocketed, due to the added demand for the services made possible for easy college loans. Many of those students simply dropped out anyways.
Both the banks AND the education establishment bombard students from the earliest ages with the propaganda that they the only way they can succeed in life is by going to college.
And when you combine that brainwashing with no financial education at any level, students don't have a chance.
It's a racket. And yes, I pay my student loans. That doesn't make it any less of a racket.
You are right, but got it backwards.
1. Students & their parrents buy the propaganda of the need for college to be a success.
2. Students borrow money but the propaganda is a lie so they default on the loans.
3. Now we go to your points about bankers, risk & lobbying & the removal of bankrupcy protections.
4. Then underwriting criteria changes & skyrocketed tuition.
I don't know if this helps in deciding if/how he should pay his big student loan debts. :(
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Still waiting to hear how the author was "defrauded".
Was there something in the student loan agreement you agreed to that was fraudulent?
If I take out a fixed interest loan at 6% for 30 years and next year the same bank is offering loans at 2%, does that mean I was defrauded? I can pay it off AT ANY TIME.
I think this should take a paragraph, not two pages.
Mac
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Still waiting to hear how the author was "defrauded".
Was there something in the student loan agreement you agreed to that was fraudulent?
If I take out a fixed interest loan at 6% for 30 years and next year the same bank is offering loans at 2%, does that mean I was defrauded? I can pay it off AT ANY TIME.
I think this should take a paragraph, not two pages.
Mac
Maybe you should reread this entire thread.
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Of course there is one possible way out of this problem.
1. Get lines of credit/credit cards with a total limit upto your student loan balance.
2. Get cash advances & pay off the student loan.
3. Make a good faith effort to make payments on your new debt.
4. Declair bankrupcy and get the debt wiped off.
5. Pay cash for everything after bankrupcy.
I'm no lawyer, maybe the suggestions above would be wrong?
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Still waiting to hear how the author was "defrauded".
Was there something in the student loan agreement you agreed to that was fraudulent?
If I take out a fixed interest loan at 6% for 30 years and next year the same bank is offering loans at 2%, does that mean I was defrauded? I can pay it off AT ANY TIME. ...
You can't pay off what you don't have the income to pay off. And as for your example, you can refi your 6% loan. You are PROHIBITED from refi-ing a Student loan.
That is never explained in any of the Student Loan documentation.
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Still waiting to hear how the author was "defrauded".
Was there something in the student loan agreement you agreed to that was fraudulent?
If I take out a fixed interest loan at 6% for 30 years and next year the same bank is offering loans at 2%, does that mean I was defrauded? I can pay it off AT ANY TIME. ...
You can't pay off what you don't have the income to pay off. And as for your example, you can refi your 6% loan. You are PROHIBITED from refi-ing a Student loan.
That is never explained in any of the Student Loan documentation.
By "refinancing" I assume you mean replacing an old student loan with a new student loan.
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Still waiting to hear how the author was "defrauded".
Was there something in the student loan agreement you agreed to that was fraudulent?
If I take out a fixed interest loan at 6% for 30 years and next year the same bank is offering loans at 2%, does that mean I was defrauded? I can pay it off AT ANY TIME. ...
You can't pay off what you don't have the income to pay off. And as for your example, you can refi your 6% loan. You are PROHIBITED from refi-ing a Student loan.
That is never explained in any of the Student Loan documentation.
By "refinancing" I assume you mean replacing an old student loan with a new student loan.
I mean Refinancing. Just like one does with a Mortgage or Car loan or anything else. When rates go down, you refinance.
Interest is paid for two reasons: To cover loss in case of default and to make profit.
The Student Loan system suffers no loss. Ever. They PROFIT from defaults and have created a byzantine system that makes default more likely.
Since they hold ZERO risk in these loans, my loans - capitalizing at 8.25% - are pure profit to Sallie Mae and the US Dept of Edu.
So why can't I refi to a lower rate when those lower rates are offered? See above. It's pure Government sponsored Usury.
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I mean Refinancing. Just like one does with a Mortgage or Car loan or anything else. When rates go down, you refinance.
Interest is paid for two reasons: To cover loss in case of default and to make profit.
The Student Loan system suffers no loss. Ever. They PROFIT from defaults and have created a byzantine system that makes default more likely.
Since they hold ZERO risk in these loans, my loans - capitalizing at 8.25% - are pure profit to Sallie Mae and the US Dept of Edu.
So why can't I refi to a lower rate when those lower rates are offered? See above. It's pure Government sponsored Usury.
You can't because the government/lender has no competition. (And because competition would cut government & banking revenue.) The banks used to charge you a penalty if you paid off or refinanced your home mortgage. A lender that does that now would not make many loans.
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"Refi" can be with a different lender. Get a new loan (from your bank, your parents, your friends) under different terms to pay off the old. Simple.
But this is not about refi'ing. It's about "fraud".
Still waiting to hear about the "fraud".
My point his is not to crucify anybody. My point is that one should make up excuses, and then believe them, for having made a bad choice. Again, it's like the homeowners who took out mortgages they couldn't afford and then later blaming the "evil banks" and everyone else for their bad decision. If I buy stock, and it later goes down, it's not "fraud", it's just a bad decision. We all make lots of bad decisions, but let's not blame others.
Mac
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The "fraud" comes in the nondisclosure of the facts relating to banking practices.
The "fraud" comes in the RICO level of collusion between a for-profit private organization and sweetheart deals that give their financial instruments special powers that NO other financial instruments have.
The "fraud" comes in the FACT that it is easier to reduce or eliminate the "penalties and fees" for TAX EVASION than it is to remove the "penalties and fees" for simply being too underemployed to stay out of "default" on your student loan... >:(
It's not the LOAN we are PO'd about, it's the NON DISCLOSURE of the nature and level of the "penalties and fees".
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Perhaps a hypothetical analogy with real similarities between the student loan market as it currently exists and my personal experiences would be more concise regarding why I feel there was fraud. As for being able to explain why I feel defrauded in a paragraph vs. a couple pages I will have to respectfully disagree with you.
After graduating spring of 2007 I moved to New York and spent the first two years or so either looking for work or working around the clock to pay the bills while my fiancée finished graduate school as she could not work in her undergraduate field without a masters degree. I used forbearance as much as possible and by the time the bills became due the economy was in free fall. I was underemployed, hated my employer and knew that staying with them long term was not an option. My health was failing from the stress of my situation. Since we were living paycheck to paycheck without even making any student loan payments on my debt leaving was not an option. I made the emotional and perhaps irrational decision of ceasing payment to all bills save basic necessities. This allowed me to, for the first time since graduating college, start saving. I used this savings to purchase some Canadian currency and silver maple leaf bullion which has gone up substantially in value. This represents my plan B emergency escape fund and to this day is our only savings. By the time my fiancée was done with graduate school, perhaps prior, I was thoroughly burnt out and a physical mess. I quit my job despite the economy and just waited. I figured she would kick me to the curb and I would use my plan B fund to escape NY, I did not want to be a drag on her and was proud for helping her finish graduate school. She did not do this and since she was the first person in my life including my biological parents who was always there for me I have not left NYC yet. I do think it is time to make a move though and just taking whatever rare under the table work I can find here in NYC while working out of the home to keep costs low isn't cutting it. I have spent the bulk of my time studying economic texts, reading about the student loan debacle, the housing crisis, credit default swaps and other such scams being used to force the economic hands of those of us unconnected to the graft. I could indeed write hundreds of pages on the issue "why I feel defrauded" as the tangled web the deceivers have wrought is indeed that complex. I think you will find the following story more entertaining than something resembling a text book though, so here it goes. For comparison purposes I ask the reader to interchange the story topic "you got a house for XXX% interest, now pay it back" with "you got an education for XXX% interest, now pay it back", that is your argument and that of many who tell me to just pay it back, correct?
Amerigain; a story
Part1: Opening Gambit
A shady group of money lenders in sunny Calimexifornia buys up land on the cheap in an area that is a virtual paradise. The reason this land is so cheap is that no one in their right mind would build on it because this land is located on a known fault line and geologists have determined with 99.99%+ certainty that there will be major seismic activity every 10 years minimum. The statistical likelihood of such activity is reduced as the time range is decreased but still quite significant. Going beyond the 10 years is a moot point since to do so would be statistically insignificant, basically earth shattering events are a sure thing.
After purchasing said land on the cheap, the shady money lenders spend millions lobbying the local legislator for removal of bankruptcy protections and for more lenient disclosure laws regarding home ownership and the history of properties up for sale. The local politicians, while not the most honest types to begin with, don't at first intend to directly defraud people but are more than happy to get in on the graft. They figure that their constituents know better than to buy a home in such an area so what could possibly go wrong? Someone is offering them a bucket load of money for nothing and they are going to take it! Perhaps some of the more "moral" politicians will give back by donating some of these profits to their favorite charity to appease their conscience.
The corporations set up by the money lenders then proceeds to build homes of the lowest structural quality imaginable. They know that under ideal conditions these homes would collapse in 20 years at best but they do not care because no one will find out due to the fact that mother nature will dispose of the evidence in 10 years at most. Knowing that none of the locals would ever buy these houses on the fault line, the company focuses its marketing campaign a few states away in an area where people are entirely foreign to the concept of seismic activity. They specifically market their product to first time home buyers and sell it as the Amerigain dream. They advertise convenient easy to make payments over a 30 year time span that, "anyone can make"! Eager young people flood to the properties, they take jobs and build businesses providing a boon to the local economy.
Part2: The trap is sprung
Of course right on schedule mother nature strikes. The money lenders are there, quick to remind their customers of their agreement. It does not matter that the young homeowners are now homeless and without their previous savings which was used for down payments. It does not matter that now these same people must seek shelter elsewhere, spending a large portion of their income renting so they have a roof over their heads. The victims are expected to continue making payments on their "obligations". In their kindness the benevolent money lenders and their shell corporations are quick to offer affordable housing in a nearby low income neighborhood that they had conveniently developed in advance of the major earthquake.
The local politicians, not to be outdone, seize the opportunity created by the manufactured crises to harness public sympathy towards those "unfortunate victims of natural catastrophe". Loan forgiveness programs are instituted if only those victims are willing to step up to the plate and play ball as government employees. Since everything was entirely "legal" most victims of the scheme decide to comply. Some work three jobs for extended periods, live in the low income housing set up by the money lenders and pay back "their debt". They figure that at least with time they will be free. The problem is that by doing so, these victims create massive financial gains for the very money lenders and their buddy politicians that defrauded them. The crooked elements of society realize that there is massive profit potential and a system of fraud and graft is institutionalized. Talented and smart individuals flock to this system and instead of putting their minds to work thinking up ways to make life better for everyone, they focus their efforts on thinking up ever greater scams.
Another group that were victims of the earthquake take the politicians offer for loan forgiveness and they become dependent employees of the state. Now the crooked politicians and money lenders have their army to enforce their will. This emboldens them and they push forward with larger and larger scams to ensnare harder to catch prey. Some of these victims may start of as good people, a subjective term no doubt, but eventually the power of their new official roles with eat away at their souls and all but the strongest will succumb to the evil forces at work. Eventually all that remains is a relatively small segment of the population, too smart and or lucky to fall prey to the traps of the worst elements of society. Unfortunately for these stalwarts, at this point it is too late, evil has triumphed and all because good men did nothing.... or has it?
Part3: New Hope
Thankfully for the people of Amerigain there might be hope. Sure in a few locations like Calimexifornia and New Yoke-two-carry things are pretty damn hopeless. The graft is so institutionalized that many play a part in it and don't even realize the nature of what their way of life has become. However, even in such places as these there are a few individuals that represent the third option in our story. These are the earthquake victims that recognize the nature of the beast that confronts them. Despite the fact that many have no financial assets left with which to escape their situation, they recklessly decide not to play ball and do their best to go about finding their way out of the trap they find themselves in.
Such individuals act in direct opposition of their own immediate interests and make themselves targets in doing so. All of their former friends think that these people are crazy, lazy and stupid. Their Dictatorcrat "friends" tell them that they are indeed victims of evil money lenders and that they should take advantage of the politicians' offer for debt forgiveness and go work for the state. Their Repressifcan "friends" tell them that they are victims of corrupt politicians and should simply work harder and pay "their debt": many of these also offer up the same "solution" of working for the state. Parents, for those fortunate enough to have them, give in to their human desire to keep their children out of harms way and give the poor advice to just give in.
Almost all people question the integrity of the few choosing the third option, and the individual is left questioning himself. Up for many a sleepless night with not much more to do than read and dream of past or distant places where the illusive concept of freedom did or might exist. Finding work is a challenge at this point as no one trusts someone who refuses to pay their debts. It is "common knowledge" that such a person is vile and lacking in integrity and that all those with the glimmering houses on the water are examples of honesty and integrity who gained their wealth through their merits.
Such a person as our victim might look around at the people surrounding him and, even if he isn't particularly religious, wonder if he might be a modern day Noah; helpless to stem a coming flood. Absent any friends or family and not wanting to burn bridges with the few remaining people who still seem to care about him; perhaps a fiancée or a mother in law, he would be lonely and seeking out someone to talk to even though he would know that doing so, again, could make him a target. He might spend much time just walking the streets and being a lurker on internet forums talking to any who will listen with the hope that he is wrong and someone will get it. Unfortunately such a person would not be very likely to exist in a place like New Yoke-two-carry, as another unfortunate byproduct of institutionalized corruption would be a jaded populace who would be more likely to take joy in another's suffering than have any feelings of empathy for the sad state of the victim. Some people might even be malicious in their intent and knowingly give bad advice and liable those who although far off might help the young victim find his way. Desperate at times, the victim might give in to despair and for periods give up. During such times perhaps time and effort would be spent on less productive thoughts and planning such as leaving his homeland or becoming a hermit, this of course would be a disservice to the type of person who already made the commitment to not give in and it would not address the heart of the problem: left unchecked the evil forces pursuing him would likely catch up with him at some point anyhow. But as long as the young victim was still drawing breath there would be hope for him and he would continue to put his neck on the line. As for the future of Amerigain and that of the young rebel the verdict is still out...
.....to be continued.
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Way too long to read . . .
You wanted to go to school, or buy a house. You had no money. You hadn't saved (for whatever reason).
Now you needed someone ELSE's money to do what you wanted.
So you had to BORROW the money that someone else had.
You signed an agreement. A contract. You said you'd pay the money back at a certain interest rate and a certain time frame.
You were an adult. You could read. You could understand.
Nobody forced you. You had free choice.
And now you don't want to pay it back because you claim you were "defrauded".
Remembers, lenders (of education or houses) are not responsible for the outcome of your education any more than they are responsible for the value of your house going up or down. They loan MONEY that you don't have.
This is not rocket science that requires a treatise to explore the intricacies of the banking system. It's about a contract between you and the entity that loaned you money.
Again, PAY IT OFF if it's so onerous. Surely some private entity can make you better terms than the government?
Mac
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Way too long to read . . .
You wanted to go to school, or buy a house. You had no money. You hadn't saved (for whatever reason).
Now you needed someone ELSE's money to do what you wanted.
So you had to BORROW the money that someone else had.
You signed an agreement. A contract. You said you'd pay the money back at a certain interest rate and a certain time frame.
You were an adult. You could read. You could understand.
Nobody forced you. You had free choice.
And now you don't want to pay it back because you claim you were "defrauded".
Remembers, lenders (of education or houses) are not responsible for the outcome of your education any more than they are responsible for the value of your house going up or down. They loan MONEY that you don't have.
This is not rocket science that requires a treatise to explore the intricacies of the banking system. It's about a contract between you and the entity that loaned you money.
Again, PAY IT OFF if it's so onerous. Surely some private entity can make you better terms than the government?
Mac
Mac it isn't that simple or black and white. It really isn't.
If we had a free market, I would agree with you. However, we don't have a free market in the student loan area. The government took away the ability for people to negotiate when things change in life. Without the threat of a BK, banks won't work with borrowers. The government gave banks many incentives to encourage defaults. The banks now want people to default on student loans. I was listening to a guy last night that in good faith was paying his loans for many years. He lost his job. The bank would not accept partial payments and forced him into default. His $80,000 loan ballooned into $750,000 because of fees and penalties on the default.
If people could simply "pay it off" they would.
All most of us borrowers would ask is to have our Constitutional rights reinstated.
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Way too long to read . . .
You wanted to go to school, or buy a house. You had no money. You hadn't saved (for whatever reason).
Now you needed someone ELSE's money to do what you wanted.
So you had to BORROW the money that someone else had.
You signed an agreement. A contract. You said you'd pay the money back at a certain interest rate and a certain time frame.
You were an adult. You could read. You could understand.
Nobody forced you. You had free choice.
And now you don't want to pay it back because you claim you were "defrauded".
You continue to ignore the fact that neither I, nor anyone else said that we don't want to pay it back. Why?
Remembers, lenders (of education or houses) are not responsible for the outcome of your education any more than they are responsible for the value of your house going up or down. They loan MONEY that you don't have.
Yes, and in every other case they have to follow certain disclosure & fair lending practice rules. In the case of Student Loans, they DON'T and they don't disclose that they don't. That IS fraud.
This is not rocket science that requires a treatise to explore the intricacies of the banking system. It's about a contract between you and the entity that loaned you money.
A contract that did not disclose the penalties and fees associated with the intricacies of said contract.
Again, PAY IT OFF if it's so onerous. Surely some private entity can make you better terms than the government? Mac
Must be nice to have a magic wand to make money appear. Must be nice to be so self righteous as to not be willing to either read what we are saying or stoop to admitting that the system has been corrupted by Government influence/influence peddling.
The principal and base interest of the loans are not fraudulent, it is the undisclosed penalties, fees, collection practices and government collusion to remove all consumer protections afforded to every other type of debt - including IRS debt - that is fraudulent.
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Way too long to read . . .
You wanted to go to school, or buy a house. You had no money. You hadn't saved (for whatever reason).
Now you needed someone ELSE's money to do what you wanted.
So you had to BORROW the money that someone else had.
You signed an agreement. A contract. You said you'd pay the money back at a certain interest rate and a certain time frame.
You were an adult. You could read. You could understand.
Nobody forced you. You had free choice.
And now you don't want to pay it back because you claim you were "defrauded".
Remembers, lenders (of education or houses) are not responsible for the outcome of your education any more than they are responsible for the value of your house going up or down. They loan MONEY that you don't have.
This is not rocket science that requires a treatise to explore the intricacies of the banking system. It's about a contract between you and the entity that loaned you money.
Again, PAY IT OFF if it's so onerous. Surely some private entity can make you better terms than the government?
Mac
Another problem with the "pay it off" comment is that if you are in default of your student loans, many states now will pull your professional licenses. So, many lawyers, doctors, CPA's, etc, don't have the ability to "pay it off," they no longer have the ability to feed themselves.
The government is also considering pulling passports and national licensing for defaulted students. A good example would be for a doctor to lose his DEA license and therefore, would be unable to prescribe medicine. How do you "pay it off" then?
Again, this is NOT a simple black and white issue.
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Another problem with the "pay it off" comment is that if you are in default of your student loans, many states now will pull your professional licenses. So, many lawyers, doctors, CPA's, etc, don't have the ability to "pay it off," they no longer have the ability to feed themselves.
The government is also considering pulling passports and national licensing for defaulted students. A good example would be for a doctor to lose his DEA license and therefore, would be unable to prescribe medicine. How do you "pay it off" then?
That is by design. Sallie Mae makes its profit from the non-disclosed penalties & fees that come with "default". Unlike every other bank/lending institution that LOSES money when borrowers default, Sallie Mae PROFITS from it...
So why NOT do everything possible to insure that more people default?
It's a win win for them.
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MFN, guess I will have to respectfully agree to disagree on the issue of fraud in the student loan industry, especially if my comment is to long to read. I did put a few hours into it focusing on brevity and readability so if you change your mind about reading and wish to further discus we can of course continue that debate.
Fraud , interest and penalty issues aside, I think the other big issue I have is that of double standards. I just don't see how there can be a reasonable expectation in a society that rule of law will prevail if different segments are held to different standards. How can one group be afforded a protection such as bankruptcy and another denied?
Congress gave the reason that the student loan market was unique and without denying bankruptcy protections unscrupulous individuals could walk away from their debt without even attempting to pay it back since an education can't be repossessed. This would give the lender no recourse and in turn fewer people could afford an education. Of course the removal of bankruptcy protections is pretty recent (2001 for Sallie Mae loans) and people got educations prior so... what do you think regarding this?
For clarities sake I would like to say that I do indeed feel responsible for paying back what I borrowed. It is the interest and fees I take issue with.
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jhamilton:
If it takes 2,000+ words to weave a story about fraud, then I'm sorry, I don't buy it. But then, who cares?
George Washington always warned about debt since you lose control of your life when you owe money to someone else.
It's not the lender's problem nor their responsibility what happens to you (or any of the other posters here). Your bad luck, or health problems, or lack of job in no way modifies the contract that you or the others signed. You agreed to the terms, and now you'd like to change them?
In my opinion, FRAUD would be something like this (very concise):
Section 2.1.10.12 of the contract reads: The APR of the loan will be adjusted every 12 months to the then current rate given to new applicants.
IF that was in the contract and they continue to charge you then higher rate then THAT IS FRAUD, but it's not in there, right?
They are abiding by the written contract, right? Or is there a specific clause that you still feel they are defrauding you on?
And it IS that simple, not complex as people keep saying here. Who didn't have the money? You. Who agreed to the terms? You. Who spent the money? You. Who can pay it off immediately if there are better terms available in the private market? You.
Yeah, you're in a bad situation. But it's a situation that you created. Trying to rationalize it by screaming "fraud" just doesn't work.
Mac
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Willful. Ignorance.
La la la... I'm not listening...
What part of NONDISCLOSURE OF TERMS are you missing/ignoring?
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OK, I'll jump in here. Shouldn't waste my time, but I will.
The whole student loan debacle is a mess because government got involved. I had student loans back when I went to school. Took me ten years to pay it off. Fixed interest rate. Money from a private foundation that focused on kids from small towns in the midwest going to reasonably priced schools (the University of Illinois in Champaign/Urbana in my case). I knew what I was getting in for and I decided it was worth it.
Enter the big bad wolf (Washington, DC). Here little girl, I have some goodies for you. Guess what - you end up cooked in an oven!
I have no sympathy whatsoever for all the whining here splitting hairs about disclosure, etc. If the loan really is fraudulent, go get a lawyer and sue 'em. (I bet the lawyer won't take it because it's not really fraudulent, but that's just a hunch.)
That said, DON'T TALK ABOUT HERE OR ANYWHERE ELSE WHATEVER YOU PLAN TO DO. Just do it. And quit whining.
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There are Lawyers working on it. But the reason most of us don't have our very own personal Lawyer is (A) if we could afford that, we'd already have our loans paid off and (B) as you say, the Government is involved.
Since the Government is involved, and the Government makes the rules, they get to decide what is "fraud" and what is "murder" and what is an "illegal taking" and what is "assault", etc.
The lending system supporting our higher education system is structurally predatory. In the absence of fundamental, free-market consumer protections like bankruptcy, statutes of limitations, refinancing rights, and others), and in the presence of unprecedented collection powers that would make “mobsters envious” (Elizabeth Warren’s words), we have a student loan system where the big lenders make significantly more money on defaulted loans than healthy loans. What is worse: The guarantors (the entities that are supposed to police the lenders) make, on average, 60% of their revenues from penalties and fees attached to defaulted loans. What is almost unbelievable: Even the Department of Education (According to the President’s Budget), gets back $1.22 for every dollar they pay out in default claims for Federal Family Education Loan Program (FFELP) loans. Even subtracting generous collection and other costs from this profit still leave them clearly in the black. Imagine if it turned out that JP Morgan Chase, Fannie Mae, and even The Housing Department were making more money on defaulted sub-prime home mortgages than those which remained in good stead. This is the reality for student loans.
These financial motivations explain a wide and deep array of systemic defects, conflicts, and corruptions in the system that involve the lenders, schools, and most importantly, the Department of Education. One example, Sallie Mae and others have been found to have defaulted student loans en masse- without even attempting to contact the borrowers! Another example: all colleges routinely mislead students prior to taking out loans about their true default rates- they instead doggedly promote their reasonable sounding “cohort” default rates, and the Department of Education never does anything to correct this false impression (The true default rate across all schools is roughly 1 in 3, and has been for years, whereas the cohort default rate typically lies between 4%-8%). Similarly, students usually aren’t made aware that all the consumer protections mentioned above- and more- don’t exist for student loans.
A few common-sense questions are compelled here: Would you want to take a loan from someone who wanted you to fail in your endeavor? Doesn’t this put the lending system in a position of bad faith? Is this not a defining characteristic of a predatory lending system? Adam Smith, Milton Friedman, and every other western economist would answer yes on all counts.
But you know the deal. If THEY - "The Government" does it, it ain't a crime. If anybody else acted this way they'd be Enron'd.
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Still waiting to hear exactly which section of the contract was fraudulent. Or exactly what action of the lender was fraudulent as compared to the contract.
Sorry, but "bad intentions" is not fraud.
Sounds more like whining than fraud. Sounds like the underwater home owners who are whining about the evil banksters that "tricked" them into borrowing money.
But I could be wrong. Just my opinion.
Mac
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So, what I'm hearing is that you don't believer in Free Market protections and prefer to have the Government twist things to their advantage... correct?
Maybe you don't like the idea of "equal protections" under the law.
Removal of Standard Consumer Protections AFTER the student signed the loan contract illegally violates well-settled Contract Law, and, of course, violates Equal Protection, insofar as Student Loans are the *only* types of loans NOT granted these 'Standard Consumer Protections' (truth in lending; bankruptcy proceedings; statutes of limits; the right to refinance; adherence to usury laws; and, Fair Debt & Collection practices, etc.).
OTOH, maybe you are just self righteously sitting back and saying "HA! I got screwed and so should you!"... even thou you didn't come out of school into an economic collapse.
But I could be wrong. Just my opinion.
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All right enough tiptoeing around the subject out of respect for my elders, the kiddy gloves are coming off.
If you buy something and are denied the right to take possession of your purchase is the seller legally required to refund you for your purchase?
Some people buy homes to live in, which is good. Many more prior to the housing market collapse bought homes with the intent to use them as an investment tool. The general consensus at the time was that homes would only go up in price. This is with good reason since absent government meddling, large scale deadly conflict or pestilence the human tendency is to grow the population. If you bought a home to live in nothing has changed, you still have possession of a home and despite the short term effects of government meddling your purchase will appreciate in real value relative to its absolute fiat money value. This is a sure thing up until the point that cost effective interplanetary travel and colonization techniques are developed. It is as safe as gold or more so since gold will maintain its value in the long run short of inventing a cost effective way to artificially create it or to extract the small quantities of gold present in all sea water.
vs.
Many more people recently than in past generations have been taking loans to pay for educations. These debtors have been told by their parents, educators, politicians and media since their formative age that an education will prepare them for a lifetime of financial success. In fact, getting into a good university is for a majority of modern Americans the primary goal of everything they do in their pre-adult lives. This is with good reason since education in general, not to be confused with a formal education, benefits a society on a macro level. With most areas of study today, people do not buy an education with the intent of selling it for a higher price to someone else at a later date. They purchase an education and accompanying degree under our current system with the intent of obtaining a job of which many employers require a degree for consideration. In a true free market system one could sell their education with a proper ROI or that educations cost would have to decrease due to market demands. Thanks to the current de jure monopoly on education ROI is often negative despite societies lies to the contrary.
I suppose the two examples regarding debtor obligations are related in that government overreach has screwed them both up but they are a poor comparison. The former group took possession of a tangible good that had value at the time that they received it and coincidentally still has value. The latter received an intangible good with no current value absent the increased ability to pay off the debt. Care to guess which group has been receiving loan forgiveness at the expense of the other group in the form of higher taxes in the future?
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Finding absolution
It is the social security ponzi fraud, not the housing market, that actually has more in common with the student loan market and is explicitly linked. The corrupt ringleaders in politics and crony capitalist mega corps running the show took the lions share of the intergenerational plunder from SS and give a pittance of what they took back to the previous generation of victims via a social security check which is paid for with current tax receipts from their children. This theft is compounded by the time value of money and the pernicious affect of intentional government induced inflation. Not content with only stealing the wealth that already existed, the same institutionalized thieves who have been allowed to have to much power via an overreaching government a la the new deal have decided to steal wealth that has not even been created yet! There truly is no end to the level of their greed. They did this by inflating the cost of an education beyond what a normal free market would entail and to add insult to injury it was done using plundered monies from previous generations.
It was not my generation that was in a position to put an end to the new deal corruption prior to the removal of student loan protections or the laws that gave children without any assets access to cash to purchase degrees that despite the promises would have a negative ROI. It was not my generation that voted on the bills that allowed the government to use SS monies to provide loans to everyone with a pulse. It is my generation and those under me who are on the hook to have both our future and past earnings plundered via SS payments and student debt payments for the duration of our productive lives. You will have to then excuse me for thinking that I should perhaps not play ball, that starving the beast is the way to put an end to the corruption and ever expanding state.
Why should younger Americans have to eat the loss both ways? I am not without empathy for the baby boomer generation though. What your parents did to you was atrocious, what you do to your children is doubly evil. Since a great portion of the wealth stolen to pay for an overpriced education which I could potentially benefit from in the future is currently unrecoverable I would be more than willing to eat part of the expense but not both ways. Either allow me to opt out of SS without raising other taxes or causing inflation via quantitative easing or give up on trying to collect what is owed on student debt. You can't have their cake and eat it to, was a phrase first used about a decade after the passage of the new deal, I suggest reading the entire wikipedia entry for that phrase. Perhaps the phrase was a warning from the greatest generation after they had just won world war two and handed their spoiled children the baby boomers the greatest nation the world has ever seen. Perhaps the baby boomer generation should ask themselves what sort of world they are leaving to their children instead of tearing them down at every turn and whining about how their adult children aren't leaving the nest when they can't. It is the John Galt types that you are sure to lose and society will never know the true cost of what could have been.
There is hope
The only person of or close to retirement age that I have ever known to make the statement that even though she has been robbed, the money is gone and there is no claim to robbing my generation is Mamaliberty. She did so in a different thread that I read on the FSW forums. This is one big reason why I immediately gained so much respect for your movement and why I have been so forthright. I wonder, what would happen if instead of spouting abstract principles like "Fiscal Responsibility" "Limited Government" and "Free Markets" the baby boomer generation actually stepped up to the plate en mass owned up to their responsibilities for allowing the New Deal crimes to go for so long and started walking the talk. Perhaps then the younger generation could learn something besides selfishness from their elders whom they truly need the wisdom of if we are going to make lemonade out of these lemons. Ditch the hypocrisy and I see no reason why the pro liberty movement be it FSW FSP Libertarian T Party or any of the archist groups shouldn't be taking all of the youth votes from the big government Obama types. We are of course the group paying the steepest price because of socialist policies.
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OI said: "OTOH, maybe you are just self righteously sitting back and saying "HA! I got screwed and so should you!"... even thou you didn't come out of school into an economic collapse.
But I could be wrong. Just my opinion."
Yes, you are wrong.
JH, Sounds like you are truly angry at the whole situation. Your teachers, your parents, politicians, and media. I guess they all "defrauded" you by suggesting that an education was a worthwhile endeavor?
Obviously you are using the work "fraud" in a much broader context than I am. I take it there was not any actual "fraud" in the contract that you signed and agreed to? Appears to me that it's the larger society's "social contract" that you are calling "fraud".
Last year my wife and I lost half of our retirement savings after a Ponzi scheme we were involved in collapsed. We had no idea. I share your sentiments with SS being a Ponzi scheme. Of course it is! It was from day one. It WILL collapse. I think most of us here on the Forum acknowledge that and have discussed it at length. Yet the very people who denounce it as a Ponzi scheme are still collecting from it (with a whole host of rationalizations as to why it's OK to do so). Money for seniors, ranch and farm subsidies, property tax discounts if you graze cattle or grow hay, home mortgage interest deduction, oil and gas depletion allowances, food stamps, Section 8 housing, payments to Solyndra for greenie energy, Earned Income Credit: the list goes on and on for special classes of people and their activities. Each gets a page out of the 20,000 pages of IRS tax code.
Yeah, there's a lot to complain about these days.
Question: why is it that if I walk into a restaurant or barber shop I get my meal and haircut cheaper than you? Because I'm old?
That is the most blatant age discrimination ever, but yet, I've never heard ONE complaint or news story about it.
But then again just today I saw some kind of discounts on Amazon for students. Huh? They can buy the same book as me for less because they go to school. See what I mean?
Life is unfair. You just have to make the best of the hand you are dealt and the era into which you are born.
Mac
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OI said: "OTOH, maybe you are just self righteously sitting back and saying "HA! I got screwed and so should you!"... even thou you didn't come out of school into an economic collapse.
But I could be wrong. Just my opinion."
Yes, you are wrong.
JH, Sounds like you are truly angry at the whole situation. Your teachers, your parents, politicians, and media. I guess they all "defrauded" you by suggesting that an education was a worthwhile endeavor?
Obviously you are using the work "fraud" in a much broader context than I am. I take it there was not any actual "fraud" in the contract that you signed and agreed to? Appears to me that it's the larger society's "social contract" that you are calling "fraud".
Last year my wife and I lost half of our retirement savings after a Ponzi scheme we were involved in collapsed. We had no idea. I share your sentiments with SS being a Ponzi scheme. Of course it is! It was from day one. It WILL collapse. I think most of us here on the Forum acknowledge that and have discussed it at length. Yet the very people who denounce it as a Ponzi scheme are still collecting from it (with a whole host of rationalizations as to why it's OK to do so). Money for seniors, ranch and farm subsidies, property tax discounts if you graze cattle or grow hay, home mortgage interest deduction, oil and gas depletion allowances, food stamps, Section 8 housing, payments to Solyndra for greenie energy, Earned Income Credit: the list goes on and on for special classes of people and their activities. Each gets a page out of the 20,000 pages of IRS tax code.
Yeah, there's a lot to complain about these days.
Question: why is it that if I walk into a restaurant or barber shop I get my meal and haircut cheaper than you? Because I'm old?
That is the most blatant age discrimination ever, but yet, I've never heard ONE complaint or news story about it.
But then again just today I saw some kind of discounts on Amazon for students. Huh? They can buy the same book as me for less because they go to school. See what I mean?
Life is unfair. You just have to make the best of the hand you are dealt and the era into which you are born.
Mac
You are correct Mac. Life is sometimes unfair. The Founding Father knew that too. That is why they never intended for people to become permanent debt slaves to bankers and corporations. That is why they put bankruptcy into the Constitution.
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JH, Sounds like you are truly angry at the whole situation. Your teachers, your parents, politicians, and media. I guess they all "defrauded" you by suggesting that an education was a worthwhile endeavor?
Obviously you are using the work "fraud" in a much broader context than I am. I take it there was not any actual "fraud" in the contract that you signed and agreed to? Appears to me that it's the larger society's "social contract" that you are calling "fraud".
Mac, you always have interesting posts. :)
Perhaps "fraud" is not the right word. As OI pointed out, some people signed up for loans in good faith with the intention of paying them back but knowing that if something went wrong (they got sick, the economy colapsed) they had the option of declairing bankrupcy and clearing the debt. Now the government has taken possession of that debt (85% is what I've heard) and removed it from bankrupcy protection. They fundamentaly changed the agreement without the consent of the other party.
I'm not sure what to call that. It's not "theft" or "violence" or "extortion" but it is wrong. What would you call changing an agreement without the agreement of the other party?
(This, of course, is just talking about the loans and legal agreements and has nothing to do with the schools, govt & society's mantra about the importance of an education at any cost.)
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JH, Sounds like you are truly angry at the whole situation. Your teachers, your parents, politicians, and media. I guess they all "defrauded" you by suggesting that an education was a worthwhile endeavor?
Obviously you are using the work "fraud" in a much broader context than I am. I take it there was not any actual "fraud" in the contract that you signed and agreed to? Appears to me that it's the larger society's "social contract" that you are calling "fraud".
Mac, you always have interesting posts. :)
Perhaps "fraud" is not the right word. As OI pointed out, some people signed up for loans in good faith with the intention of paying them back but knowing that if something went wrong (they got sick, the economy colapsed) they had the option of declairing bankrupcy and clearing the debt. Now the government has taken possession of that debt (85% is what I've heard) and removed it from bankrupcy protection. They fundamentaly changed the agreement without the consent of the other party.
I'm not sure what to call that. It's not "theft" or "violence" or "extortion" but it is wrong. What would you call changing an agreement without the agreement of the other party?
(This, of course, is just talking about the loans and legal agreements and has nothing to do with the schools, govt & society's mantra about the importance of an education at any cost.)
The government not ONLY removed BK as an option: But even after the governmnet pays off a defaulted loan, they even allow the original creditors of defaulted loans the ability to still recoup fees and penalties that actually double or even triple the cost of original loan. Thus creating an incentive for bankers to encourage default rather than mitigate defaults; thus they enslave unwitting student borrowers to permanent debt slavery.
Also, any student loan amounts that are "forgiven" still trigger IRS income liability, most of which are also not dischargeable in bankruptcy.
Non-disclosure and material omissions in a contract constitute fraud. I think the above qualifies as such and therefore are not fraud. How they got there was also corrupt and unconstitutional.
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Non-disclosure and material omissions in a contract constitute fraud. I think the above qualifies as such and therefore are not fraud. How they got there was also corrupt and unconstitutional.
Was there a typo here? :)
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I get the feeling that Mac has been playing devils advocate a bit. If so it worked. While writting it my post kept changing in subtle ways. I see absolutely no relation between the two examples became I suppose the two are related but... I think the underlying point is that no one is innocent in the tangled web that has become the USA and that if we try to use moral relativity we end up with a unsolvable situation. That being said, maybe something can be done about the specific problem of the de jure monopoly. I ommited a lot of pages in the document I was working on because as I kept rewritting and rereading I noticed myself starting to scapegoat. Please read my next post with a grain of salt. I think there might be some free market solutions hidden in it specifically the parts about how I got to where I am currently.
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The nation benefits
Acknowledging the student debt problem would be a good thing for the country. It would help restore a free market. Why is our society dumping millions of dollars into higher education when the traditional university has gone the way of the horse and buggy? We have information technology as do our competitors and if this country wishes to compete globally we aught to better utilize it otherwise we are just heathens firing arrows at invading Europeans with guns.
I have taught myself more using information technology since receiving my degree than I learned in my formal education and that is not because I didn't apply myself in school. I earned a B.S. in business administration with a minor in criminology and law and I graduated with honors so there is no valid argument that the university I attended could make to the end that I did not properly apply myself to their curriculum, not without at least admitting to the diploma factory nature of their institution. All a person has to do is read enough to recognize others intelligence when they see it. Then simply ask such people that are smarter and or more knowledgeable what to read in order to learn more. This also sets the pace for the individual since an individual will not recognize a persons ability if it is to far beyond their own. This is what I have done since getting my official diploma, much thanks to the people of this forum in helping to continue my free education.
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putting the idea in peoples head, both hiring companies and students, that they no longer need the degree would go a long way to stop the brainwashing. perhaps the bigger benefit would be freeing up so many resources and reducing government dependency. I keep reading about shortages of skilled labor in the news and can't figure out why more companies arn't just dropping the silly artificial degree requirments and offering apprenticeships. Desperate college graduates are getting out these days and doing year long free internships, something I couldn't afford to do. Meanwhile Back when apprenticeships were common the apprentice got their expenses paid in exchange for X yrs free labor then worked X more with a reduced pay before going out to start their own business. There are definitly some serious misallocation of resources in the market today.
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Yes. I wondered if you would not notice... ;)
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Yes, I've been known to play devil's advocate at times . . .
But seriously, after hearing all the writing here about all the evil things that will happen if you don't pay your student loan, and how people will become "debt slaves" forever, and how bankruptcy is not an option, and how lenders will still come after you, and how even debt "forgiveness" is taxed, my advice, as from the beginning is:
REPAY THE MONEY YOU BORROWED, HONOR THE AGREEMENT YOU SIGNED, and move on with your life.
Debt is bad. It ruins lives. It's not easy to climb out of the hole, but not repaying debts, regardless of the excuse or reason, is wrong (IMNSHO).
Again, I'm not trying to crucify anyone here. I'm not the judge. Just expressing MY opinion and thoughts. A good conversation. JSHamilton posed the question and has gotten some good responses. I've learned a lot actually. I would gladly have him as my neighbor, or my friend, or offer him a beer at the upcoming Jam. Heck, several of my friends are anarchists (not saying that JS is). I don't agree with that position, but they are still my friends. No hard feelings with anyone here, at least not on my part.
Mac
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Debt is bad. It ruins lives.
I agree. How do you pay back a debt of $750,000 with ever growing penalties and interest making $40,000 a year? You can't. So the best option is to work towards restoring the constitution and allowing bankruptcy so those people don't become debt slaves. Many of us would never would have taken student loans if we had all the information available to us at the time.
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First, I'm a former liberal. Doesn't mean much around here. Helps if you have turned into an anarchist though. ;)
To make a long story short I feel a degree of responsibility unlike the OWS crowd to pay back at the least the principle of what I borrowed
I think responsibility is the wrong word here. Imagine you borrowed money from the Mafia. You might well feel it's a good idea to pay them back, but I bet you wouldn't think of it as "responsibility". Government is just the Mafia writ large.
"Defrauded" might also be the wrong word, too, as Mac points out. You were sold a bill of goods though, in the general sense. Welcome to the club. Yes, the whole thing is one big racket. Anyway, when we owe the Mafia a pile of money, we don't talk of them having "defrauded" us.
Of course we didn't know we were borrowing from the Mafia. The Ministry of Propaganda did not tell us anything about what was going to happen. But we really were borrowing from the Mafia.
If you pay them back, your life will go one way (eating rice and beans to save the money to pay them back). If you don't it will go another way (doing crap jobs, living under the radar, which means you will only be able to afford rice and beans to eat). It looks like you are going to be eating a lot of rice and beans, but don't feel bad because you won't be lonely; the whole frigging country (except ruling class, bankers and enforcers and bureaucrats) are going to be in the same boat pretty soon.
I just don't see how there can be a reasonable expectation in a society that rule of law will prevail if different segments are held to different standards.
Ah, there is your difficulty. You think there is a "rule of law". Time to wake up and smell the dead fish...
George Washington always warned about debt since you lose control of your life when you owe money to someone else.
Indeed. And from Shakespeare, "Neither a borrower nor a lender be; For loan oft loses both itself and friend, And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry." Those old guys were pretty smart after all. Of course none of us were raised in this culture of borrowing to believe these things. Now we are paying the price. The old virtues will return, after the revolution has had its say.
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And remember what the Mafia does to those who don't pay... Not nice at all. >:D
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First, I'm a former liberal. Doesn't mean much around here. Helps if you have turned into an anarchist though. ;)
I tend to take my time with forming opinions like that, but I don't limit myself so who knows learning more about anarchists was a start. I didn't know there were different kinds of archists when I started this thread. I would like to visit at some point, probably will be a while though, first things first I have to get out of NYC. NH is closer so I will be heading there for now. It will be good to be able to arm myself and from the statistics I was reading their getting really close to the tipping point in some counties for getting some major legislation passed. Not having to worry about a huge rent bill will definitly go a long way to building up some savings so I can visit Wyoming and check it out. I figure I can do like a infamous character back home did, we called him underground Tom. Very high rent in my hometown but good pay so this guy followed the deer trails to figure out the places least frequented by humans. Then durring the night so no planes could see he dug a huge hole, layered with plastic then some wood for support and built a secret home. He lived there undetected for over a decade, when the police eventually discovered him they guy had it all rigged up hot tub, off the grid electric and all ;D
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REPAY THE MONEY YOU BORROWED, HONOR THE AGREEMENT YOU SIGNED, and move on with your life.
Debt is bad. It ruins lives. It's not easy to climb out of the hole, but not repaying debts, regardless of the excuse or reason, is wrong (IMNSHO).
Mac
You sound just like Dave Ramsey. :D Maybe you should start a radio show!
(I agree completely, taking personal debt is like working with explosives. It may get the job done quicker & easier or it may turn you into pink mist.)
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There is a great deal of truth on both sides of the argument here. But, ultimately, I too will have to agree with Mac. You were not defrauded. You entered into an agreement, albeit a crappy one in which you are on the losing end. While you are not the victim of fraud, you have, however, been misled. You have been misled by the ideas of society at large concerning education and success. These ideas have already been well dissected above, so I won't rehash them. But now having realized that you were duped - duped but not defrauded - you're understandably hacked off about it. If, as seems to be the case, you feel that it is the entire system in which the student loan process operates that is fraudulent, you cannot hope to find a remedy in accordance with the rules of those who run the game. No one seems to dispute the idea that paying back the money you borrowed is the right thing to do. But being that you possess a useless degree rendering you unable to earn enough income to repay the money you borrowed to obtain said degree, you're in a catch-22. You borrowed money from an entity in order to purchase a worthless commodity, yet it was that same entity which assured you of this commodity's endless value. While technically this doesn't constitute fraud, and is not, therefore, legally wrong, it is, nonetheless, morally reprehensible. The question is now: what are you going to do?
Take your diploma and mail it back to the institution from which you received it. Include a letter explaining that the product did not perform as advertised, and that you are returning it as defective. Make a copy of both these documents and send the copies to whomever collects the payments on your student loan debt. Volunteer to the debt collectors that you relinquish all the monies that you have previously paid them, but that you will not be paying them anything further. What will this accomplish? Most likely they'll just think you're an insane person. But, although you will not be in good standing in the eyes of the system, you will have cleared your conscience and morally righted yourself. Never take on anymore debt. Ever. If you can't afford to buy it outright, you don't need it. Of course it would be wrong for you to then pursue employment under the auspices of your now defunct degree. Get a construction job. Of course you'll be living on the edge of poverty and unable to attain those idealized goals of financial solvency and prosperity. But weren't those the goals instilled in you by the same duplicitous, corrupt system that deceived you into pursuing some useless degree at your own financial peril and that shackled you to some contrived conception success?
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REPAY THE MONEY YOU BORROWED, HONOR THE AGREEMENT YOU SIGNED, and move on with your life.
Debt is bad. It ruins lives. It's not easy to climb out of the hole, but not repaying debts, regardless of the excuse or reason, is wrong (IMNSHO).
Mac
You sound just like Dave Ramsey. :D Maybe you should start a radio show!
(I agree completely, taking personal debt is like working with explosives. It may get the job done quicker & easier or it may turn you into pink mist.)
Dave Ramsey is a shill for bankers. ;P
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While technically this doesn't constitute fraud, and is not, therefore, legally wrong, it is, nonetheless, morally reprehensible. The question is now: what are you going to do?
What constitutes fraud are the errors and omissions. The "commodity" was misrepresented AND not all the ramifications were disclosed up front. That IS fraud.
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While technically this doesn't constitute fraud, and is not, therefore, legally wrong, it is, nonetheless, morally reprehensible. The question is now: what are you going to do?
What constitutes fraud are the errors and omissions. The "commodity" was misrepresented AND not all the ramifications were disclosed up front. That IS fraud.
I'm not saying that you weren't swindled. I'm just saying that it's not fraud according to them. You have to recognize that they wrote the rules by which you're playing. You can't win.
You borrowed money from the state to get an education administered by the state. And now you want to use the laws created by the state to prove that the state has ripped you off. Good luck with that.
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I thought this article that just showed up in the WSJ deserved a link on the subject of student debt.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304451104577389750993890854.html?mod=hp_opinion
Basically the article consists of an older American rubbing salt in the wounds of the current class of recent college graduates. His attitude reflects fairly well that of most older Americans and like most he seems convienently oblivious to basic cause and effect relationships. Maybe I should start showing up at some of those occupy wall street rallies after all. I doubt there is much chance in the short run that I could undo the pro state brainwashing, but I bet if a little pressure were applied in the right spots the mood could be shifted from docile sheep like protests to something more greek. >:D
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While technically this doesn't constitute fraud, and is not, therefore, legally wrong, it is, nonetheless, morally reprehensible. The question is now: what are you going to do?
What constitutes fraud are the errors and omissions. The "commodity" was misrepresented AND not all the ramifications were disclosed up front. That IS fraud.
I'm not saying that you weren't swindled. I'm just saying that it's not fraud according to them. You have to recognize that they wrote the rules by which you're playing. You can't win.
You borrowed money from the state to get an education administered by the state. And now you want to use the laws created by the state to prove that the state has ripped you off. Good luck with that.
Except that a bunch of us didn't borrow from the State. We borrowed from Private Lenders and our note was ACQUIRED by the State Supported NGO called Sallie Mae...
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I thought this article that just showed up in the WSJ deserved a link on the subject of student debt.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304451104577389750993890854.html?mod=hp_opinion
Basically the article consists of an older American rubbing salt in the wounds of the current class of recent college graduates. His attitude reflects fairly well that of most older Americans and like most he seems convienently oblivious to basic cause and effect relationships. Maybe I should start showing up at some of those occupy wall street rallies after all. I doubt there is much chance in the short run that I could undo the pro state brainwashing, but I bet if a little pressure were applied in the right spots the mood could be shifted from docile sheep like protests to something more greek. >:D
I'm wondering if he will have the same condesending attitude towards seniors when they complain about Social Security benefits being slashed?
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I guess I'm still at a loss to understand what you guys are arguing about.
You didn't have the money for your education. So you borrowed it and agreed to pay it back.
Is that right so far?
But now, you don't want to pay it back (for a variety of reasons)? Right?
And you are looking for a loophole or an excuse for not paying it back?
And you are angry that you can't declare bankruptcy and wipe your debt clean?
Is that the crux of it?
I mean, if you don't want to pay off your debt then don't. Fine. But making excuses because one entity transferred the loan to another and now your feet are held to the fire doesn't seem like the honorable thing to. In my opinion.
Again, it appears to be very similar to the underwater homeowners who are DELINQUENT on their loans and are blaming the banks for every little misstep, delay, loss of paperwork, etc when the PRIMARY fault lies with the borrower for NOT PAYING BACK WHAT THEY BORROWED.
That's what it looks like here.
Mac
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I guess I'm still at a loss to understand what you guys are arguing about.
You didn't have the money for your education. So you borrowed it and agreed to pay it back.
Is that right so far?
But now, you don't want to pay it back (for a variety of reasons)? Right?
And you are looking for a loophole or an excuse for not paying it back?
And you are angry that you can't declare bankruptcy and wipe your debt clean?
Is that the crux of it?
I mean, if you don't want to pay off your debt then don't. Fine. But making excuses because one entity transferred the loan to another and now your feet are held to the fire doesn't seem like the honorable thing to. In my opinion.
Again, it appears to be very similar to the underwater homeowners who are DELINQUENT on their loans and are blaming the banks for every little misstep, delay, loss of paperwork, etc when the PRIMARY fault lies with the borrower for NOT PAYING BACK WHAT THEY BORROWED.
That's what it looks like here.
Mac
That's not it at all. You are missing the point - AGAIN.
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I guess I'm still at a loss to understand what you guys are arguing about. You didn't have the money for your education. So you borrowed it and agreed to pay it back. Is that right so far?
True. As is the case for everyone who isn't a Gladiator ("sports hero") or scion of Big Money...
But now, you don't want to pay it back (for a variety of reasons)? Right?
WRONG WRONG WRONG. The fact that you REFUSE to hear this from us is indicative of your deep seated pro-government bias.
And you are looking for a loophole or an excuse for not paying it back?
NO. We want to have THE SAME RIGHTS AS EVERY OTHER BORROWER - AS DEFINED IN THE CONSTITUTION.
And you are angry that you can't declare bankruptcy and wipe your debt clean?
NO.
We want the RIGHT - ONE THAT EVEN IRS "DEFAULTERS" HAVE - TO RENEGOTIATE OUR LOANS AND BE PROTECTED FROM OBSCENE/INVASIVE/PREDATORY COLLECTION PRACTICES.
Is that the crux of it?
Only in YOUR mind.
I mean, if you don't want to pay off your debt then don't. Fine. But making excuses because one entity transferred the loan to another and now your feet are held to the fire doesn't seem like the honorable thing to. In my opinion.
Your opinion means squat. Unless and until you have been subjected to collections practices that are "legal" only to Sallie Mae and the Mob, your opinion means SQUAT.
Again, it appears to be very similar to the underwater homeowners who are DELINQUENT on their loans and are blaming the banks for every little misstep, delay, loss of paperwork, etc when the PRIMARY fault lies with the borrower for NOT PAYING BACK WHAT THEY BORROWED.
Wrong, AGAIN.
Those gits overborrowed so they could have their Bling. We borrowed because we were told that the only way for us glasses-wearing, skinny non-labor types to succeed in life/be able to earn and PAY OUR WAY was to have a "Degree".
IT. WAS. A LIE.
THE. TERMS. WERE. NOT. DISCLOSED.
THE. TERMS. WERE. MODIFIED. WITHOUT. OUR. CONSENT.
get it?
That's what it looks like here.
It would look a hell of a lot different if you would open your eyes.
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Thank you both for explaining the "obscene/invasive/ predatory collection practices" that folks are subject to as a result of not paying their loans back. Quite clear now what your position is. You've stated "the point" clearer than I ever could. Now I fully understand where you're both coming from.
Mac
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Thank you both for explaining the "obscene/invasive/ predatory collection practices" that folks are subject to as a result of not paying their loans back. Quite clear now what your position is. You've stated "the point" clearer than I ever could. Now I fully understand where you're both coming from.
Mac
We are subject to them WHILE paying our loans back.
We are subject to practices that are ILLEGAL to every other type of collection agency (except the Mafia) and EVERY other kind of debt... even IRS debt.
It would be easier to manage a Million Dollar IRS debt than my $34K Student Loan debt (which I legitimately owe) purchased by Sallie Mae and illegitimately inflated to $50K - even though I've been paying an AM NOT IN DEFAULT.
Would you like to lower your nose and try again?
(http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001021639/obama_nose_in_the_air_xlarge.jpeg)
Or is what's left of your investment portfolio too tied into the "profitability" of increasing the "default rate" of student loans?
The Sallie Mae CEO brags to shareholders in the opening remarks that the company's record earnings that year were attributable to collections on defaulted loans. The company's "fee income" increased by 228% between 2000-2005, while their managed loan portfolio grew by only 87% during the same time period.
What's bad for Students is good for you eh? Follow the money...
It was reported in January 2004 by John Hechinger (WSJ) that for every dollar paid out in default claims, the Department of Education would recover every dollar in principal, plus almost 20% in interest and fees. Further, supplemental materials in the president's 2010 budget show a recovery rate for defaulted FFELP loans of about 122 %. This is the amount recovered compared to the amount of the loan at the time of default. Compare this recovery rate to that for defaulted credit cards, which is usually about 25 cents on the dollar, and one can see that defaulted loans are clearly not costing the Department of Education money. In fact, simple, comparative analysis shows clearly that the reverse is indeed the case. In other words: The Department of Education is making more money on defaulted loans than loans which remain in good stead.
They are MAKING it hard to pay so MORE people can "default". It is their business model - and is ILLEGAL in every other type of banking transaction..
It is only WILLFUL and MALICIOUS blindness on your part that keeps you from recognizing that all anyone here wants (I won't pretend to speak for anyone else) is our CONSTITUTIONALLY GUARANTEED EQUAL PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW.
Either remove ALL consumer protections on ALL debts or restore those protections to Student Loan Borrowers.
It's that simple.
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Yeah Mac, it really does seem to boil down to that question, don't you agree?
I hope we can continue this useful discussion without getting too hot.
One thing though, there never was any guarantee that getting a degree in X would get you a job in X, and in fact it's been the case for a long time that there isn't a very strong connection there, as a moderate amount of research would have disclosed. Many, many people have jobs in different areas than their degree. If I were in this boat I'd abandon any hint there was ever any such guarantee (even if the Universities implied it), and concentrate on the point that student debt ought to be treated no worse than any other debt, particularly in cases where the terms were unilaterally changed by the one side, as appears to be the case.
But this also brings up the deeper question of whether a person can sell himself into slavery. I don't know the answer to that question.
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... If I were in this boat I'd abandon any hint there was ever any such guarantee (even if the Universities implied it), and concentrate on the point that student debt ought to be treated no worse than any other debt, particularly in cases where the terms were unilaterally changed by the one side, as appears to be the case.
My point...
But this also brings up the deeper question of whether a person can sell himself into slavery. I don't know the answer to that question.
If they do so knowingly, with all of the particulars being disclosed... why nt?
It's the nondisclosure of the terms that are/were altered by whim & political chicanery that are the problem - not the debt itself.
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OI,
I'll just let you keep rambling here with your insults to me and your baseless accusations.
Where do your warrantless insults against me come from? I thought we were having a friendly discussion, not mud slinging.
Your ranting does more to harm your position than to support it.
I guess the whole world is against you, the banks, the government, the society, your friends, neighbors, and family perhaps? They all conspired to get you into this situation?
Mac
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OI,
I'll just let you keep rambling here with your insults to me and your baseless accusations.
Where do your warrantless insults against me come from? I thought we were having a friendly discussion, not mud slinging.
Your ranting does more to harm your position than to support it.
And yet, YOU are the one who continues to assert that I, and many like me, only want to dump my debt on the taxpayers.
Which is the greater insult?
I guess the whole world is against you, the banks, the government, the society, your friends, neighbors, and family perhaps? They all conspired to get you into this situation?
Mac
They only fostered and perpetuated the .gov developed fallacy that going into debt to get a useless piece of paper is a "good & Necessary Thing".
Overcoming one's upbringing is generally a good thing too, but it usually happens far too late...
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Yeah Mac, it really does seem to boil down to that question, don't you agree?
I hope we can continue this useful discussion without getting too hot.
One thing though, there never was any guarantee that getting a degree in X would get you a job in X, and in fact it's been the case for a long time that there isn't a very strong connection there, as a moderate amount of research would have disclosed. Many, many people have jobs in different areas than their degree. If I were in this boat I'd abandon any hint there was ever any such guarantee (even if the Universities implied it), and concentrate on the point that student debt ought to be treated no worse than any other debt, particularly in cases where the terms were unilaterally changed by the one side, as appears to be the case.
But this also brings up the deeper question of whether a person can sell himself into slavery. I don't know the answer to that question.
However, the kids going through the "system" are bombarded from elementary school on with propaganda to the opposite.
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One thing though, there never was any guarantee that getting a degree in X would get you a job in X, and in fact it's been the case for a long time that there isn't a very strong connection there, as a moderate amount of research would have disclosed.
However, the kids going through the "system" are bombarded from elementary school on with propaganda to the opposite.
That is why the kids need to learn to be discerning adults, and not believe all those lies. (I hope I quoted the part you were responding to...)
We are surrounded by liars, from salesmen, to stockbrokers, to senators. Separate the lies from the truth, or risk losing big time. I don't like it, but this is the way our world is.
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One thing though, there never was any guarantee that getting a degree in X would get you a job in X, and in fact it's been the case for a long time that there isn't a very strong connection there, as a moderate amount of research would have disclosed.
However, the kids going through the "system" are bombarded from elementary school on with propaganda to the opposite.
That is why the kids need to learn to be discerning adults, and not believe all those lies. (I hope I quoted the part you were responding to...)
We are surrounded by liars, from salesmen, to stockbrokers, to senators. Separate the lies from the truth, or risk losing big time. I don't like it, but this is the way our world is.
My family also still buys into and defends this lying system. I think the worst think about the education system is that it doesn't teach and/or kills critical thinking.
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Okay, having been the recipient of a student loan for my undergrad degree, guess I can jump in here. First of all, I agree with Mac (even if he won't kiss my dog ;D ;D!) and Paul and any others who are taking the contrarian view, it seems. Bottomline for me: you borrowed the money, signed a contract to repay, so regardless of anything else, you have an honor to uphold your end of the deal, regardless of the lack of integrity by the other party. Yes, the gov't is scandalous, corrupt, illegal, and everything else we want to throw at it. However, you may not have known that at the time, but that does not excuse you from repaying the debt. For a person of integrity, it matters not the scruples of an opposing party. Damn the torpedoes, pay what you said you'd pay and DON'T EVER DO IT AGAIN! ;) ;) Actually, the Bible says to not be a borrower because the borrower then becomes a slave of the lender. And a lender could be screwed by a borrower. Best to avoid both. But if the deed is done, do what you said you'd do. Your word is you.
I really like that FSWers hold to some standards that are particularly very, very important in my own life. Doing what you said you'd do is one of them. That's applicable to your situation, former liberal, but all we can do is share our personal feelings, which you asked for. The doing of one thing or another is up to you. But look at it this way, if a person owes taxes (yes, we know that system is bondage and corruption, but it is what we live with) and doesn't pay them, he will live with a certain amount of fear and trepidation, waiting for the knock on the door. Why give something like a student loan power over you? The only way to destroy that power is to pay the debt and thus cancel the obligation forever. Now, that is freedom, my friend! God bless you and pray about it.
Kingskid
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P.S. Yes, I repaid my student loan after graduation, but made a mistake in doing so. Because of hating to owe (and be owned) by anything, I paid off the debt in large sums just to be out from under it. My loan rate was only 4%, so I could have taken some time to pay it off, but the obligation of it was a bone in my throat and the sooner is was out, the better! So, it impacted my cash flow in the short run, but it was worth my peace of mind. That, and peace with God and (most) others, is more important to me than anything else in this world.
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P.S. Yes, I repaid my student loan after graduation, but made a mistake in doing so. <snip> So, it impacted my cash flow in the short run, but it was worth my peace of mind. That, and peace with God and (most) others, is more important to me than anything else in this world.
Then it wasn't a "mistake" at all. :)
I had exactly one loan, very early in my career. Don't remember the interest rate. It was pretty high right then. I lived in a crappy place, scrimping on everything until it was paid in full. Took me three years after graduation. Not sure what the loan term was, but it was years and years longer than that.
I used to laugh when the loan company wrote to me practically BEGGING me not to make extra payments. I'm sure that cost them a bundle.
And yes, I was fortunate that there was such a terrible nursing shortage that I had no problems finding a job. Might have made a big difference in how long it took me otherwise.
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Kingskid:
I don't know how many times I have to say this, but I, for one of many, am NOT trying to get my debt magicked away.
I'm trying to get the scandalous, corrupt, evil system changed to at least have legal parity with common banking law.
What is wrong with that?
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"re: Ironsights: Kingskid:
I don't know how many times I have to say this, but I, for one of many, am NOT trying to get my debt magicked away.
I'm trying to get the scandalous, corrupt, evil system changed to at least have legal parity with common banking law.
What is wrong with that?"
I was just responding to jhamilton1679 who is obviously wrestling with how to proceed on his loan obligation. I really wasn't trying to impugn anyone's personal beliefs, and certainly not yours, Old Ironsights. I do understand the anger, bitterness and frustration so many feel with the banking industry, unfair taxation, corrupt gov't, destruction of our liberties, etc. When all of that started weighing down on me, I felt my natural joy being sapped and had to get away from political writing and reading to get my equilibrium back. If we let angst about things over which we have very little control eat away at us, we will just be letting the thieves and robbers steal even more from us: our peace. But, we still have the liberty to move and many have made Wyoming their choice. I am anxiously awaiting to see if Wyoming will seduce me or if it'll just be a passing flirtation. :) :)
BTW, OI, you obviously are a man with a deep well of love. Marrying and caring for someone with a debilitation of some kind shows your mettle. I applaud you. May G_d bless you. Shalom!