Free State Wyoming Forum

Prospective Free State Wyoming (FSW) Members and Interested Parties => Prospective Free State Wyoming (FSW) Members and Interested Parties => Topic started by: patrick04 on January 15, 2013, 01:03:50 PM

Title: introduction and hello
Post by: patrick04 on January 15, 2013, 01:03:50 PM
Hi everyone.  I'm a new forum member, and I'm interested in learning more about FSW.  I'm originally from Indiana, but am currently living way too close to the east coast....  I'll be moving my family somewhere else in the next 1-2 years, so I am starting to do some research to figure out where we should move to.  Right now Indiana is at the top of the list, but we are also looking elsewhere (e.g., Wyoming).

Philosophically, I am on the radical libertarian side of the political spectrum. A lot of the things I've read on the FSW website are appealing to me.  I really like that Wyoming passed a Firearms Freedom Act, and they recently introduced a bill to nullify the potential new federal firearms ban.

On the other hand, I am wondering if I'll have to make a major career change to find a job in Wyoming.  Unfortunately I have a PhD in engineering, which is basically useless for getting a job in the more desirable areas of the country (i.e., low population areas). I'm currently working at a university, and I had considered looking for jobs at the University of Wyoming, but it seems like most FSW members live in northeastern Wyoming?  Is that correct?  What's the reason for choosing the northeast? 

My wife is also a bit concerned that Wyoming might be a bit too rural... She likes the idea of rural living as long as it's within 1-2 hours drive of a bigger city.  From my point of view, being that close to a major city just means that the zombies will eat you first   ;D   Anyway, just how "rural" is northeast Wyoming?  I'm from a county in southern Indiana that I thought was fairly rural until I compared its population (about 30,000) to the population of counties in northeast Wyoming (about 7,000 and much bigger... about 1/30 the population density of where I grew up!).  Seems like it might be dramatically different than what I'm used to, which might be a good thing.

Anyway, I would appreciate your perspective on what it's like to be part of FSW and live in Wyoming.  Thanks!
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: MamaLiberty on January 15, 2013, 01:49:14 PM
Welcome! I hope you will plan to visit soon and meet as many of us as possible. As far as I know, most of us are here in the NE corner, but nobody knows for sure. We don't keep lists, records or data bases, and lots of folks don't belong to the forum... Add to that the fact that there are lots of good people already here who are not part of FSW - and many who never heard of us. :) Community is as much what you make of it as what you find.

Jobs are a big problem everywhere, and you might have to think about changing your career goals and expectations, no matter where you go. Things are changing, and fast. Being light on your feet can't hurt.

As for cities, there are two within 80-90 miles of Newcastle here. Rapid City is in South Dakota, population about 70,000. They have all the stores, theaters, etc. most anyone could want. Gillette has around 30,000 population and a fair number of stores, etc. too. So, it will depend a lot on what her definition of "major city" might be. NYC we don't have. :)

There is a wealth of information here on the forum, though some parts of it have been temporarily misplaced... sigh... so if you don't see an answer to a question, just post it and we'll try to help you figure it out. But the best way to know what's here is to be here... Do plan to visit.
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: manfromnevada on January 15, 2013, 04:41:37 PM
Welcome Patrick.
So you say you work for the government and you want to continue working for the government?
Is that your idea of being a libertarian minded person?

No offense, but I know a person who claims to be an anarchist but is also working as a Chicago cop enforcing the laws of the government. I guess somebody's got to crack those skulls, and heck, the pay and benefits are good, right?  >:D

Please excuse my candid response.

Mac (from the NE corner, Crook County)
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: patrick04 on January 15, 2013, 08:02:03 PM
Hi Mama and Mac, thanks for the warm (and candid) welcome. 

Mama, thanks for all the information and the encouragement to visit.  I think that's a really good idea, and obviously a good first step.  It would be long trip for us since we don't fly but I'm sure it would be a lot of fun, and we haven't taken a real vacation in forever.

Mac, I appreciate your candidness.  It reassures me that I've come to the right place... 

"Hello, my name is Patrick, and I work for the government."  The first step is admitting that you have a problem  ;D   

Yes, I basically for the government. No, I am not very happy about it.  I feel like I am helping to build the Death Star. What I do, in isolation, isn't objectionable, but I am basically building the Death Star...   I work for a "private" university, but I am paid through government grants (unfortunately, just like 99% of people who work at universities... not that that makes it okay, it's not).

I've had libertarian leanings for a while, but I only really became "radicalized" in grad school (I graduated 2 years ago).  That was when I began to realize that the degree I was working toward would be pretty much useless if I didn't work for the government in some manner. They don't tell you this in the nice, shiny grad school brochures, but virtually all of the major employers of engineering PhDs are either (1) Government labs (DOE-funded national labs, DoD labs, etc), or... (2) Are extensions of the government (e.g., General Electric, Raytheon, etc.), or... (3) Are located in places like the People's Republic of California (semiconductor manufacturers), or... (4)  Are nominally "private" engineering R&D firms that in reality are mostly supported by government contracts.  It's been a disappointing learning experience to say the least..

That said... and I am not making excuses... We all have to pay taxes, which means we all work for the government.  I drive my car on government roads and use government money to buy things.  I wish it weren't so but it is.  If I could change it all in an instant I would.   I would be happy to stop working for the government.  However, I am not one to make rash decisions, so I'm not yet ready to totally bail out on what I'm doing.  I need to weigh the options and figure out the best course of action.  BTW, I am happy to hear that your libertarian friend is a Chicago cop.  My wife is from Chicago and I think she will really appreciate the irony.

Well, anyway, please forgive me for being part of the "machine." I will take a look around the forum and see what I can learn about FSW.  In the meantime, I welcome more advice and suggestions.

Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: KTKEWW on January 15, 2013, 09:40:39 PM
Check out this link, it's my report from our first trip out a few months ago. Since then all we have been doing is planning how to get there permanently.

http://www.fundamentalsoffreedom.com/fswforum/index.php?topic=13642.0;wap2 (http://www.fundamentalsoffreedom.com/fswforum/index.php?topic=13642.0;wap2)

(I am doing this from my phone, so if the link is not working, you'll find it in Prospective FSW...)

You are among good people here.
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: 300dragonflies on January 15, 2013, 10:13:06 PM
(Whispering) I also sort of work for the government. It's a small, local, non-profit, and it does good stuff - but it's government.

It's also "a job" in a state that entered double-dip recession this past fall, after never recovering from the first one, and is the only state in the region still bleeding jobs - and people, too, apparently, as the population went down over 50k this past year. I've been there 9 years now, or it will be nine years in 9 more days. Longest I've ever been any one place. Most places I worked in the past either went out of business, or were sold and brought in all new people, so this is unusually nice for me to still be somewhere after this long.

It fits into my tentative plan that I'll hit ten years about the time I am thinking of/sort of planning on  moving. We'll see what happens between now and then. The timetable might need to move up. Who knows!

One of the biggest tasks I face in the coming year is figuring out how to replace that income. I'll need enough to live on and pay some bills.
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: manfromnevada on January 16, 2013, 09:40:59 AM
Thank you Patrick. We just need to get you into a Twelve Step Program!  >:D

You are quite right that many degrees are only employable by the government. Not only weapons, but social/climate/etc. That's why nearly EVERY "climate scientist" is a government worker, direct, or thru grants, and they know where their funding comes from.

Mac
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: Paul Bonneau on January 16, 2013, 11:58:23 AM
Quote
That was when I began to realize that the degree I was working toward would be pretty much useless if I didn't work for the government in some manner. They don't tell you this in the nice, shiny grad school brochures, but virtually all of the major employers of engineering PhDs are either (1) Government labs (DOE-funded national labs, DoD labs, etc), or... (2) Are extensions of the government (e.g., General Electric, Raytheon, etc.), or... (3) Are located in places like the People's Republic of California (semiconductor manufacturers), or... (4)  Are nominally "private" engineering R&D firms that in reality are mostly supported by government contracts.  It's been a disappointing learning experience to say the least..

I too was in graduate school in the '70's and came to exactly the same realization (it also means living in big cities your entire life). I bailed and became a test technician in a high tech company (later an engineer with no engineering degree). I occasionally wonder what my life would have been had I remained, but I am glad of one thing - I can look at myself in the mirror every morning. I also wonder what a life as a cowboy would have been like.  :)

One part of this process is to dispense with the usual hierarchy of jobs. It's just as impressive keeping a small business or a farm profitable and in good shape, as it is to be a lawyer or doctor. Try running a farm and you will find that out!
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: patrick04 on January 18, 2013, 11:25:22 AM
KTKEWW - Thanks for the link to your Wyoming trip report!  That's very helpful, it gives me a better sense for how things are out there.

300dragonflies - Very nice of you to admit to being a government employ!  ;D  When you say you're planning on moving, do you mean to somewhere else within Wyoming?  Or out of state?  Also, I checked the US Census figures on Wikipedia and they say that the WY population has increased by about 13,000 between 2010 and 2012 (see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_population_growth_rate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_population_growth_rate)).  Not sure if that's accurate or not.  Where did you get your numbers on population and job decline?

manfromnevada - I am moving on to Step #2   ;D

Paul Bonneau - I am 100% ready to dispense with the job hierarchy.  I'm wondering if any companies out there in WY would consider hiring me for entry-level type engineering jobs.  I've seen several postings for various engineering jobs that I think I could do.   Eventually I would consider transitioning into owning my own business, doing small-scale farming, etc, but to get started I would prefer (but do not necessarily require) a steady income and group health insurance.  If I were single I might take a bigger risk and switch fields entirely (I saw some interesting ads for apprenticeships in various trades - carpentry, plumbing, etc....) but with a wife and 1-year old daughter, with more kids planned in the near future, I should probably be a bit more conventional and practical.  However, my wife thinks that me switching into something like carpentry might have more upside for getting my own business going sooner than later, even if it would be a major pay cut up front.  She's actually more enthusiastic about that job path than she is about me taking an entry level engineering gig!  Really, I'm open to almost anything. I would prefer it to be more hands-on, so that I'm closer to the fruits of my labor than I currently am in my academic research position.  Somehow, publishing articles in subscription-only academic journals isn't as satisfying as I thought it would be a few years ago    :(
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: Paul Bonneau on January 18, 2013, 12:14:54 PM
 :)

There are engineering jobs in the mining sector, although that has tapered off lately.

The best health insurance is an outside job and healthy home-cooked food.  ;)  Income in Wyoming tends to be less than steady <sigh>. If you work hard and are flexible, able to wear many hats, you should do well. Can you weld, change a tire on a rim, gut a deer, paint a house? The more skills under your belt, the better.
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: 300dragonflies on January 18, 2013, 11:19:47 PM
I'm actually in New Mexico, not Wyoming. We're the only state in the region that is losing jobs and people right now. Also one of the few blue states in the region - that couldn't be the cause, could it? Nah.....

The "move" in about a year would be to someplace like Wyoming or Montana, or perhaps some other state I haven't looked at seriously yet.

(Looks longingly at that list of skills Paul mentions...noting that most are "guy-skills" and remembering how the school wouldn't let her take shop in junior high because that was a boy's class. Sigh.)
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: pedro wyomiing on January 19, 2013, 07:08:23 AM
Every man i know is either a rancher, welder, or roughneck.  While these men have other occupations, they each have a backup plan.  Paul is correct in that many hats keep one employed.  In 15 years that i have lived in Wyo, i have worked as a carpenter, electrician, plumber, heavy equipment operator, diver, roughneck and field chemist (mud engineer for local folks). Most of these jobs have NOT been fun considering the environment here.  Diving in the winter is not a chore i would wish on anyone.  However, considering the boom and bust cycles here, it is easy to make money while the gettin is good and pack it away for tough times.

Dragonflies, the cleaning ladies at the rigs are fetching 100usD/house.  It is a competitive businesss and i am charging 75usd for the same service.  It takes two skilled scrub brush operators about 45-60 min to clean a house.
THen there are power washer operations that charge 150usD/hour and other roustabout operations in the same price range.  If one is willing to commute, then the options get better.

pW
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: patrick04 on January 19, 2013, 10:31:50 AM
I can weld!  I took a few welding classes from the local community college during summer breaks after high school... Obviously that is not enough experience to get a real welding job. I've never gutted a deer though, and never painted a house.  How many thousands of acres does it take to run a successful ranching operation?

Are these type of jobs and boom-bust cycles that you mention mostly in the rural areas of Wyoming?  Or does this all apply in Casper and Cheyenne as well?  Also... I assume that Casper would be a relatively good place to live, but I get the impression that Cheyenne is not so good?
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: 300dragonflies on January 19, 2013, 11:42:49 AM
Well, I *have* painted a house! Mostly inside, lately, though as a teen I did the outside when my choice of "yellow with white trim" was the winning combo my parents chose. I think Dad helped on the weekends, but I did most of it over the course of a week or two during the summer.

I guess I just need to take a look at what I *can* do (or learn to do, or get in shape to do) versus what I've done in the past, job-wise. I guess I can clean stuff, even though the only "cleaning" job I've ever had involved cleaning and sterilizing surgical instruments at the local hospital. That was the summer after high school, and grew out of my work there as a volunteer.

I just need to sell enough stuff and/or save up enough money to pay for a move and some living expenses till the paychecks start arriving.
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: pedro wyomiing on January 22, 2013, 06:37:52 AM
I can weld!  I took a few welding classes from the local community college during summer breaks after high school... Obviously that is not enough experience to get a real welding job. I've never gutted a deer though, and never painted a house.  How many thousands of acres does it take to run a successful ranching operation?

Contact local welding shops about employment in that field when you get here.  Acreage for ranching depends on a few variables...species, number of head, rainfall, elevation and how many of your neighbours have fenced you out of their sagebrush.  Wyo is a fence out state and your rancher neighbours will graze your place to the ground if you do not fence. 

Are these type of jobs and boom-bust cycles that you mention mostly in the rural areas of Wyoming?  Or does this all apply in Casper and Cheyenne as well?  Also... I assume that Casper would be a relatively good place to live, but I get the impression that Cheyenne is not so good?
Every business is affected by the boom and bust cycle, even in small satellite towns.  When the drilling slows, so do all the other businesses that would do business with the roughnecks.  This includes food, sports, clothing and vehicle sales.  In NoDak, the burger flippers are getting 15 usD/hour to start.   "Great place to live" is rather subjective about Casper.  It depends on what you want living in the city.  I lived in Casper, off and on, for a dozen years.  I had no complaints, but i did not have children in schools or expect the city to provide me with round the clock entertainment or food.
Cheyenne has turned into "Denver North" and is something of an anomally regarding Wyo economy.  I have not lived there in several years so local folk would be better advocates for there.

pW
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: Brownhouse on January 23, 2013, 12:59:40 PM
This was an interesting thread.  I'm new here, but I've actually thought about a lot of these things since I've started considering a move to Wyoming.  My current career in IT probably wouldn't fly in Wyoming, but I'm thankful to have many skills that would suffice as back-up options.  I will say this, I don't inherently feel that working for the government precludes one from being a "libertarian-minded person", unless one feels the government is inherently immoral.  But wouldn't that make one more of an Anarchist than a Libertarian?  Even the staunchest Libertarians would concede that the government has some legitimate functions, heck, there are even Libertarian politicians.  Anarchists, that's a different story.  But to my point, unless you feel there is a moral dilemma separating your career from your personal views, we all have to make a living, and I don't feel that career choice necessarily has to be something that you'd pursue as a hobby outside of work.  If it works out for you that way, that's great, but if you make a living doing something that you aren't crazy about, but which isn't morally wrong, then I'd guess you're in the vast majority.  This is of course just my opinion.
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: MamaLiberty on January 23, 2013, 01:16:56 PM
I don't inherently feel that working for the government precludes one from being a "libertarian-minded person", unless one feels the government is inherently immoral. 

Not unless you recognize that "taxes" are theft, and thereby immoral.  I'm not a "libertarian" either, nor an "anarchist." I am a self owner and self governor. That is true "government," in voluntary association and cooperation with others who do not practice aggression against others.
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: Brownhouse on January 23, 2013, 01:34:13 PM
Ok, I see where you're coming from.  I don't know if I'm in complete agreement, but I would agree to a large extent.  Some things come to mind that the government does purchase via taxes, such as roads and bridges, border fences and security, armed forces to protect against invasion, primary education, I'd be curious to know your thoughts on sources for funding of these things.  Import levies?  Again, this is in the spirit of discussion, NOT an attempt to be argumentative.  :)
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: MamaLiberty on January 23, 2013, 01:57:33 PM
Ok, I see where you're coming from.  I don't know if I'm in complete agreement, but I would agree to a large extent.  Some things come to mind that the government does purchase via taxes, such as roads and bridges, border fences and security, armed forces to protect against invasion, primary education, I'd be curious to know your thoughts on sources for funding of these things.  Import levies?  Again, this is in the spirit of discussion, NOT an attempt to be argumentative.  :)

How about voluntary association and the free market? (which we don't have right now, unfortunately) :) I don't think theft is necessary to build roads any more than it is to build anything else people need and want. Without a central and involuntary government to build roads, do you imagine that people would want them and then do without them? People are endlessly creative and enterprising, actually, even when left strictly to their own devices. :)

Just for example:  Education is morally the responsibility of the parents/families, welcoming the voluntary assistance of anyone in the community who feels they want to donate or assist. Many millions of children were educated this way before the Prussians took over. And many hundreds of thousands of them are educated this way now.  There is zero justification for theft or involuntary government control.

Would it be perfect? Of course not. Is it perfect now? Of course not. :) Nothing is going to be perfect, but turning away from theft and coercion couldn't help but be better.
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: tenacio on January 23, 2013, 02:03:37 PM
Ok, I see where you're coming from.  I don't know if I'm in complete agreement, but I would agree to a large extent.  Some things come to mind that the government does purchase via taxes, such as roads and bridges, border fences and security, armed forces to protect against invasion, primary education, I'd be curious to know your thoughts on sources for funding of these things.  Import levies?  Again, this is in the spirit of discussion, NOT an attempt to be argumentative.  :)

I’ve thought a lot about all this, too.  I try to see things from MamaLiberty’s perspective whenever I examine any issue.  As for roads and bridges, education, and I’ll add hunting laws and regulations, the ideal libertarian position is (I believe), all property is privately owned.  Hence, he or she who owns the road or bridge would maintain it, or not, at their own discretion.  I finally realized the hunting question is simple, too.  He or she who owns the land, owns the livestock on it.  Once a creature crosses over to the neighbor’s property, that neighbor now owns it.  Education is (theoretically) simple as well; all education is the responsibility of the parents, period.  It would take a generation (at least) to implement societal changes of such a magnitude, and we would have the vast majority of sheeple continuing to want their entitlements and the Government to protect them and be their nanny.
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: Cyclonesteve on January 23, 2013, 02:54:09 PM
Question:

If I shoot a deer on land I have permission to hunt on, and the deer jumps over a fence to someone else's land am I out of luck? I know the happy answer is work it out with the other landowner, but if the other land owner says thanks for the fresh meat and takes it home am I out of luck? Are they stealing? Who gets to decide? How is that decision enforced?
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: Brownhouse on January 23, 2013, 03:19:04 PM
Ok, it's getting clearer, thank you Mama.  I do agree that people are enterprising, and I am a firm believer in the free market.  I will just have to spend some time considering the ways in which I have become or always have been complacent, and adapt to a more self-reliant lifestyle.  Here is an interesting observation: there is much less need for self-reliance in an area like Illinois, but also much less ability to prepare for the need for self-reliance in a more rural setting.  The government here takes massive taxes, but also "provides" certain "benefits", but these benefits can't necessarily be opted out of, they are "forced" benefits, if this makes any sense.  I have the benefits of natural gas, sewers, city water and garbage pickup.  If I wanted to put in an oil burner, a septic system, drill a well and get rid of my garbage, I wouldn't be allowed to, because the oil burner, the septic system, the well, and burning my garbage would be illegal, and there's no dump or transfer station to speak of.  We're essentially "offered" these "benefits" here, which we aren't allowed to refuse ha ha.  Some benefits.  Anyway, my family does have rural property up north, so these concepts aren't foreign to me.  To most people in Chicago though, I'm sure they would be.  Anyway, it's a good conversation with a beneficial outcome.  Thanks again.
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: MamaLiberty on January 23, 2013, 03:21:03 PM
Question:

If I shoot a deer on land I have permission to hunt on, and the deer jumps over a fence to someone else's land am I out of luck? I know the happy answer is work it out with the other landowner, but if the other land owner says thanks for the fresh meat and takes it home am I out of luck? Are they stealing? Who gets to decide? How is that decision enforced?

Yep, you just have to work it out. Discussion, arbitration, probably several other options. Also probably unlikely to be a problem unless the two neighbors were feuding already... and then you probably wouldn't have been hunting so close to the line anyway.

In this case, probably not the end of the world as you can shoot another deer. There are very few guarantees in life, even in a free world. :) I'd also say,  next time make a better shot so the deer doesn't go anywhere. <big grin>

Why do we so often think someone else has to fix things like this for us anyway?
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: Brownhouse on January 23, 2013, 03:37:55 PM
From my personal experience, bad neighbors are people who have a lack of respect for their neighbors.  May sound simplistic, but I think it's pretty profound.  If you have respect for your neighbors, and they have respect for you, then no one is taking advantage of the other, no one feels put upon, and there are no problems.  I have a bad neighbor.  I'm sure he'd say that I'm a bad neighbor too, but I'm not.  He has encroached on my property, trimmed brush that was on my side of the property line, and dumped waste on my property.  This was after I lent him tools and gave him some fill for free.  My reason for, I suppose you could say "wanting someone else to fix it", is because he is a serial offender.  He does it constantly, no matter what I say to him, and he now no longer speaks to me.  The next time he pulls one of his stunts, I can't really take the law into my own hands, I don't want it to escalate into an actual war, I just want it to stop.  So I'll call the police, they'll talk to him, he'll continue to hate me, and I'll continue to treat him with the respect that he will then have been forced to treat me with.  I 100% agree that we should try to resolve our own disputes, but sometimes we have to deal with people who don't have the same respect for others that is shown to them.

Unfortunately, in the deer scenario, if the owner was unwilling to let me take the deer, I'd have to abide by that, as the deer is technically on his property.  Out of respect, I'd ask, and out of respect, I'd hope he'd let me take it.
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: MamaLiberty on January 23, 2013, 03:58:28 PM
My reason for, I suppose you could say "wanting someone else to fix it", is because he is a serial offender.  He does it constantly, no matter what I say to him, and he now no longer speaks to me.  The next time he pulls one of his stunts, I can't really take the law into my own hands, I don't want it to escalate into an actual war, I just want it to stop.  So I'll call the police, they'll talk to him, he'll continue to hate me, and I'll continue to treat him with the respect that he will then have been forced to treat me with.  I 100% agree that we should try to resolve our own disputes, but sometimes we have to deal with people who don't have the same respect for others that is shown to them.

Well, this is exactly the problem with the current situation. You are effectively, forcefully prevented from doing much to fix it yourself. And that's especially true in a big city. I'm talking about how things might be dealt with differently, absent the "fixers" who claim an absolute monopoly on the process... in a truly free country - which most of us can barely imagine as possible. Many of our disagreements stem from that difficulty, and confusion of the statist status quo now with the possibility of actually being free to fix it ourselves.

Let's just say that a bad neighbor would have a lot more incentive to become a better one if the rest of the good neighbors worked together to refuse to trade with him, deny him goods and services they provide in a free market, and backed you up if this bad neighbor trespassed on your land or initiated force in some way.

Somehow, I can't quite picture the visit by some cops as creating any respect in this guy for you... but then, I don't know him. He might turn out to be an OK guy himself in a really free society. But no guarantees, remember. :)
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: Brownhouse on January 23, 2013, 04:11:26 PM
You're absolutely right, I don't think anything will cause this guy to respect me, I don't think he really respects anybody.  (He has a thing with tree limbs, they always walk over to my property.  We had a silent battle with one particularly large branch, it eventually ended up in the neighbor's lot on the OTHER side of him ha ha)  Anyway, as long as he stays off my property and doesn't cut things down or dump on it, that's all I care about.  As for trading with others, again you're right, if he was forced to deal with others, he would quickly see the error of his ways.  But instead, he just collects his government check and keeps to himself ha ha.  What a great system...just kidding.
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: RaisedByWolves on January 23, 2013, 05:22:36 PM
Speaking of bad neighbors, i recently have multiple new neighbors that moved here from out of state. They are coincidentally both aggressivly for a police state. I asked them why they decided to move to rural Wyoming, and their response was something along the lines of "republican talk shows told me to". I am almost completely disconnected from thd media, so maybe people on this forum already know about the talk show suggestion.
In my experience, these people are the worst neighbors. Anybody else having new big government radicals move to their neighborhood in Crook County?
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: BAR BAR 2 on January 23, 2013, 05:37:50 PM
Speaking of bad neighbors, i recently have multiple new neighbors that moved here from out of state. They are coincidentally both aggressivly for a police state. I asked them why they decided to move to rural Wyoming, and their response was something along the lines of "republican talk shows told me to". I am almost completely disconnected from thd media, so maybe people on this forum already know about the talk show suggestion.
In my experience, these people are the worst neighbors. Anybody else having new big government radicals move to their neighborhood in Crook County?

I have personally stopped encouraging others to move here. Not that I dont want other freedom minded indviduals here, it is that I dont want to encourage follower types. If I have to prompt and prod a person and they act on my suggestion, they are just as likely to follow the wishes of another who may not have true freedom in mind.

If a person has any sense, they will ask questions and determine on their own if this is the right place for them. If they need someone to talk them into it though, they may not be the best fit.

Tex
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: wybhroots on January 23, 2013, 06:01:26 PM

If a person has any sense, they will ask questions and determine on their own if this is the right place for them. If they need someone to talk them into it though, they may not be the best fit.

Tex

That is sound truth. 

I recently had a discussion with a friend about why we are considering moving to Wyoming and thought they may have some interest in learning more about a free state as well.  Even though we share similar  beliefs, it still comes down to each individual.  Also, my husband and I have come to the decision that if one of us doesn't want to or doesn't feel right about a move, then we won't force the move.  We will continue our journey together until we both have the same convictions about a place.

As for the talk show that told the new neighbors to move to rural Wyoming......not sure which that would be, but we are aware of a few radio stations that mention moving to states where like-minded people would be. 

~Amy
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: Brownhouse on January 23, 2013, 07:55:13 PM
I've been listening to conservative talk radio for years, I haven't heard anyone urging people to move anywhere.  I've heard some talk about people moving out of California, that's about it.  What sort of things are your new neighbors talking about, RasiedByWolves?  It's too bad they didn't prepare better for their new environment, but it would seem they'll either adapt pretty quickly, or realize that they made a mistake and move on.
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: MamaLiberty on January 24, 2013, 05:27:29 AM
but it would seem they'll either adapt pretty quickly, or realize that they made a mistake and move on.

Heh... we count on the cold, snow and isolation from the city to give them that inclination. :)  Oh, and the wind...  At a -20 with a much lower windchill factor, that can be mighty persuasive to the faint of heart.
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: MamaLiberty on January 24, 2013, 06:28:32 AM
Here is an excellent article about forming and keeping communities in preparation... and many of the pitfalls.

http://www.backwoodssurvivalblog.com/2012/12/preppers-who-make-surviving-apocalypse.html
Preppers Who Make Surviving The Apocalypse Even Less Fun

Being forced to endure and survive a catastrophic macro event like a monetary or social collapse is perhaps one of the worst experiences I could imagine.  Such a crisis leads to just about every crime and inhuman action in existence, and, the time required for a culture to right itself and rebuild is severely protracted.  A hurricane or earthquake or tidal wave; these calamities are short lived and easy in comparison.  The point is, as survivalists who are preparing to make an economic end-game scenario as “comfortable” to live through as we can, it is incumbent upon us to consider the kind of company we keep during the gambit.  Some allies will make that mad world bearable; others will bring the madness to your doorstep.

Many preppers are aware of the dangers inherent in our progressively deteriorating nation.  Unfortunately, some of them are completely unaware of the dangers inherent within themselves.  Building a solid community of people to rely on during a collapse is absolutely essential, and the larger the group of liberty minded neighbors the better.  But, if certain ground rules are not established from the very beginning, a rainbow of personal issues and character flaws could very well destroy years of effort.  Care must be taken by all parties involved to ensure that internal conflicts remain at a minimum, and when they do arise, that each person is wise enough to resolve issues in an adult manner.

I hate to say it, but you will inevitably run into some folks that are beyond compromise and beyond hope.  Working with them is like pulling teeth…shark’s teeth…from your jugular.  Here are just a handful of powder keg personalities that will make the apocalypse more than a living hell for you and your friends if they manage to latch onto or take leadership in your survival watch…
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: Cyclonesteve on January 24, 2013, 06:43:47 AM
Here is an excellent article about forming and keeping communities in preparation... and many of the pitfalls.

http://www.backwoodssurvivalblog.com/2012/12/preppers-who-make-surviving-apocalypse.html
Preppers Who Make Surviving The Apocalypse Even Less Fun

Being forced to endure and survive a catastrophic macro event like a monetary or social collapse is perhaps one of the worst experiences I could imagine.  Such a crisis leads to just about every crime and inhuman action in existence, and, the time required for a culture to right itself and rebuild is severely protracted.  A hurricane or earthquake or tidal wave; these calamities are short lived and easy in comparison.  The point is, as survivalists who are preparing to make an economic end-game scenario as “comfortable” to live through as we can, it is incumbent upon us to consider the kind of company we keep during the gambit.  Some allies will make that mad world bearable; others will bring the madness to your doorstep.

Many preppers are aware of the dangers inherent in our progressively deteriorating nation.  Unfortunately, some of them are completely unaware of the dangers inherent within themselves.  Building a solid community of people to rely on during a collapse is absolutely essential, and the larger the group of liberty minded neighbors the better.  But, if certain ground rules are not established from the very beginning, a rainbow of personal issues and character flaws could very well destroy years of effort.  Care must be taken by all parties involved to ensure that internal conflicts remain at a minimum, and when they do arise, that each person is wise enough to resolve issues in an adult manner.

I hate to say it, but you will inevitably run into some folks that are beyond compromise and beyond hope.  Working with them is like pulling teeth…shark’s teeth…from your jugular.  Here are just a handful of powder keg personalities that will make the apocalypse more than a living hell for you and your friends if they manage to latch onto or take leadership in your survival watch…

+1 I bookmarked it.
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: pelletfarmer on January 24, 2013, 08:29:27 AM
>  I don't want it to escalate into an actual war, I just want it to stop.  So I'll call the police...

That doesn't make sense.  If you don't want it to escalate into an actual war, why would you send armed agents to do your bidding?  What would "an actual war" look like, if not that?  Isn't Afghanistan (to name but one) an "actual war" even though you and I aren't there?

My main question is this.  If you have determined that nothing will stop your neighbor except the actual threat of physical violence if he continues, why wouldn't you do it yourself?  I don't mean to be rude or sarcastic; I'm genuinely interested in your thinking on the matter.  Most people will say they find something "civil" in having someone else do the dirty work, and I can't figure that part out.  If I hire a goon to go steal your stuff, would you not consider me a thief?  How would my having an agent somehow change my position?  Thanks if you can clarify at all.
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: RaisedByWolves on January 24, 2013, 09:55:30 AM
Brownhouse- About my new neighbors, I believe ONE of the people urging them to move to Wyoming is Glenn Beck. That's the only name I've recognized from talking to them. The other told me that he was urged to move to the place with the lowest population, which just so happens to be wyoming's crook county.




Kind of on the subject of neighbors again- One complaint I've heard from working with locals on a ranch here, is that "those libertarian free staters aren't very friendly" and "very possessive over their property". A realtor friend told me that he had a "free stater" pull a gun on him while he was showing a nearby property.
I guess I don't feel the same about a neighbor intruding on my land. I don't own any land and don't ever want to.
When TSHTF, I might possibly end up being the intruder, building a tree fort on the ass-end of your property (j/k & intended for all)
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: MamaLiberty on January 24, 2013, 10:12:08 AM
A realtor friend told me that he had a "free stater" pull a gun on him while he was showing a nearby property.

I'd have to see some proof to believe this one - and more about the circumstances if proven. You can hear all kinds of stories, naturally. Doesn't make it true. And being true doesn't make it wrong either. Depends on the situation.

Not all visitors are trespassers, of course. All actual trespassers are first politely invited to leave...

Being friendly does not involve an obligation to be over run with trespassers.
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: SunDog on January 24, 2013, 10:16:43 AM
...
Not all visitors are trespassers, of course. All actual trespassers are first politely invited to leave....

This explains something I've noted several times here in Wyoming - places posting a "No Trespassing" sign together with a "Welcome" sign.  :D
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: RaisedByWolves on January 24, 2013, 10:28:12 AM
Mama Liberty- You're right. Coming from my mouth, it is a rumor. I personally find the free staters I've met, friendly enough. (Even though I've only encountered two). I'm sure there's more out there :P
Hell they could be anybody, and I think that everytime I go into Hulette or Sundance.
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: RaisedByWolves on January 24, 2013, 10:54:23 AM
Kind of what I've gotten from the local ranchers...
When they were kids in the 60s 70s & 80s, they traveled through other's properties and no one cared about trespassing. Since then, people have gotten more possessive with their land.
I think naturally people would get more territorial as the population grows and you no longer recognize the kids that cut through your yard.
Or it could very well be that there are new and different people moving here, with different views than the wild west and open ranges.

Wow, I'm really bad with staying on topic, categorizing my posts, and this system they call the internet.
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: Brownhouse on January 24, 2013, 11:20:11 AM
>  I don't want it to escalate into an actual war, I just want it to stop.  So I'll call the police...

That doesn't make sense.  If you don't want it to escalate into an actual war, why would you send armed agents to do your bidding?  What would "an actual war" look like, if not that?  Isn't Afghanistan (to name but one) an "actual war" even though you and I aren't there?

My main question is this.  If you have determined that nothing will stop your neighbor except the actual threat of physical violence if he continues, why wouldn't you do it yourself?  I don't mean to be rude or sarcastic; I'm genuinely interested in your thinking on the matter.  Most people will say they find something "civil" in having someone else do the dirty work, and I can't figure that part out.  If I hire a goon to go steal your stuff, would you not consider me a thief?  How would my having an agent somehow change my position?  Thanks if you can clarify at all.

I don't know if you read my other post, but I'm not in Wyoming yet, I'm still in Illinois.  Life is different here.  To put it briefly, the police are everywhere here, and the mindset is that you use them for things like this, because if you don't, if you take matters into your own hands, then the other guy WILL call the police on YOU.  Following from my other post, the police here are just another "benefit" that you're "forced" to use, which just reinforces dependency.

You should understand, EVERYTHING is different here.  There ARE weirdoes walking down the street, and people quite often have very little respect for other people.  If you have two people who show respect to each other, and deal with each other honorably, then there would be no need for the police, because the situation wouldn't happen in the first place.  But when you have someone as disrespectful as my neighbor, and because people taking matters into their own hands are frowned upon here, if I were to take matters into my own hands, the assumption would be that I'm a trouble-maker.  Regarding my statement of "actual war", I was partially exaggerating, but in a sense, if I were to take matters into my own hands, this would be viewed as more-aggressive than just calling the police to "defuse" the situation.

Pelletfarmer, would you please tell me, and I mean this in the same spirit of your question, in order to learn, what would you do in a situation where a neighbor had cut down your brush and was dumping on your lot, and repeatedly talking to him did nothing to change his actions?
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: Brownhouse on January 24, 2013, 11:30:19 AM
Brownhouse- About my new neighbors, I believe ONE of the people urging them to move to Wyoming is Glenn Beck. That's the only name I've recognized from talking to them. The other told me that he was urged to move to the place with the lowest population, which just so happens to be wyoming's crook county.

Ok, that makes sense.  I've heard Glenn Beck, but I avoid listening to him for the most part.  My opinion is that he just kind of shoots his mouth off without thinking much, trying to sound profound.
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: manfromnevada on January 24, 2013, 12:01:18 PM
Re: what Brownhouse said about people there being different.

I visited the Chicago suburbs this summer for family reasons. Feeling cooped up, I decided to go walk along a couple of the "forest preserve" trails that meander thru the area. Since I was disarmed, I was watching the several people I came across on the trail, both coming at me and following me. All were respectable looking suburbanites out for a jog, a bike ride, a hike. But what I noticed was except for one, all avoided eye contact. As I approached, I was prepared to say "good morning" or "hello" or perhaps just a nod and a smile. But no, most purposefully looked away at the ground or the shrubs.

Out here, nobody would THINK of passing by you without a wave and a smile and a greeting. Even on the 10 miles of county road, EVERYONE waves as we drive by whether we recognize the other vehicle or not. Sometimes, people even wave on the highway at 65 mph.

I've seen the same thing in CA. Maybe it's not WY vs. IL or CA, but rural vs. urban. Still, it's disconcerting after having lived this way for several years.

Mac
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: Paul Bonneau on January 24, 2013, 01:02:51 PM
Quote
"those libertarian free staters aren't very friendly"

Part of this is likely the "slowing down" process that city people need to learn when moving to a low-population state. They have reflexes developed in a city environment which are not appropriate in rural and small town areas. It takes some time and practice, but is not impossible to get done.

Quote
But what I noticed was except for one, all avoided eye contact.
Ugh. Chicago sounds really bad. Portland is not near that bad, although there is some of that.

Quote
Pelletfarmer, would you please tell me, and I mean this in the same spirit of your question, in order to learn, what would you do in a situation where a neighbor had cut down your brush and was dumping on your lot, and repeatedly talking to him did nothing to change his actions?

Keeping in mind that every story has two sides, what I would do is avoid escalating any way I could, and make plans to get the hell out. Yeah, you could go over and threaten to beat the crap out of him, but that might not work out very well for any number of reasons. Try to find a place with decent neighbors. Life is a crap shoot, you never know what you are going to get, but you don't need to stay there and put up with it. Move on if it bothers you so much.

In a place like Wyoming I believe (with the exception of access to water) you are simultaneously less likely to run into such a-holes, more likely to be able to deal with any issues yourself, and if that doesn't pan out, you will likely find calling cops less of a disaster since a lot of Wyoming cops are pretty decent.
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: Brownhouse on January 24, 2013, 01:10:12 PM
Re: what Brownhouse said about people there being different.

I visited the Chicago suburbs this summer for family reasons. Feeling cooped up, I decided to go walk along a couple of the "forest preserve" trails that meander thru the area. Since I was disarmed, I was watching the several people I came across on the trail, both coming at me and following me. All were respectable looking suburbanites out for a jog, a bike ride, a hike. But what I noticed was except for one, all avoided eye contact. As I approached, I was prepared to say "good morning" or "hello" or perhaps just a nod and a smile. But no, most purposefully looked away at the ground or the shrubs.

Out here, nobody would THINK of passing by you without a wave and a smile and a greeting. Even on the 10 miles of county road, EVERYONE waves as we drive by whether we recognize the other vehicle or not. Sometimes, people even wave on the highway at 65 mph.

I've seen the same thing in CA. Maybe it's not WY vs. IL or CA, but rural vs. urban. Still, it's disconcerting after having lived this way for several years.

Mac

Yes, you're absolutely right Mac.  People here are just odd and suspicious, and I would agree that it's urban versus rural.  When I go up north, it's just like you described in Wyoming, people are friendly, you say hello or wave, even if you don't know them.  I always feel a bit strange in the transitions, but it's my nature to be more friendly, so that's where I can be myself.

As for my neighbor, it doesn't bother me THAT much, not so much that a call to the police, as is unfortunately customary here, won't fix it.  My other neighbors are fantastic, so if this is the extent of my problems, I can live with it.  I'm not moving again until I move away from Illinois, and that's why I'm here.  :)
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: pelletfarmer on January 24, 2013, 03:52:51 PM
> ...what would you do in a situation where a neighbor had cut down your brush and was dumping on your lot, and repeatedly talking to him did nothing to change his actions?

I stink at counterfactual hypotheticals.  Mainly, I go to great lengths to avoid such situations.  Otherwise, I'm with Paul...I'd do what I can peacefully to try and persuade.  I guess if it were really so terrible, I'd figure that I made some huge mistake and, again like Paul, get the heck out of there.

Really, my attitude is basically the same as yours:  "...so if this is the extent of my problems, I can live with it."  Right, and I think that's most people's attitude, except that they've been habituated into being nannies over everyone else's life.

The point I was making is that having agents do something for you--anything--is the same as doing it yourself, responsibility-wise.  One of the reasons this country is in such a mess is that people have been convinced otherwise.  It sounds so very civil to most people--"I'll invoke the Rule of Law to have that guy act civilly"--but that's a euphemistic way of saying, "I'll go overpower him to make him do what I want."

So I don't know what I'd do.  What I do know is that I wouldn't turn myself into a thug over it, and interestingly not because the other guy doesn't deserve it.  I don't care what he deserves or doesn't; I'm interested in being who I want to be.  It's the same reason I'd never steal...not even from a politician!
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: Brownhouse on January 24, 2013, 04:52:20 PM
The point I was making is that having agents do something for you--anything--is the same as doing it yourself, responsibility-wise.  One of the reasons this country is in such a mess is that people have been convinced otherwise.  It sounds so very civil to most people--"I'll invoke the Rule of Law to have that guy act civilly"--but that's a euphemistic way of saying, "I'll go overpower him to make him do what I want."

I think we generally agree on the situation.  The difference here is, this guy seems to have no concern for the property rights of others, and the normal approach to reminding him has not worked.  Rather than ignoring the problem, continuing to do what doesn't work, or overpowering him myself, I'll just call the police and be done with it if it happens again.  I should mention, in the big scheme of things, this is a minor issue to me.  It came up in conversation here, but in reality I'm not too concerned about it.
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: pelletfarmer on January 24, 2013, 07:12:48 PM
> I think we generally agree on the situation.

I thought so too, until I read this...


> I should mention, in the big scheme of things, this is a minor issue to me.  It came up in conversation here, but in reality I'm not too concerned about it.


I'm not sure if that means you call armed agents to do your bidding regularly, or if you just don't think it's a big deal to send armed agents on your behalf.

I'm new here myself and don't want to cause any ruckus, so I'll just say that I'm very concerned that many people call armed agents regularly to do their bidding.  Personally I can't think of a bigger issue, since all the other ones I can ignore if I wish.  But that's me, and I'm really confident that in Wyoming most folk do most stuff for themselves, and those they care about.  I think that's a wonderful thing and I think it's sad that so many "outsiders" barely have a grasp that they've been brainwashed (educated, ahem) to believe that sending armed agents to people's doors is a minor issue.  Even crazier to me is the meme that this somehow represents civility, so I'll thank you for not offering that.

I didn't understand it before, and I don't understand it now.  Please don't send any armed agents to my door to tell me what to do.  A phone call or email would be much better for everyone involved, and a zillion times more productive.
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: Brownhouse on January 24, 2013, 08:22:12 PM
Please don't send any armed agents to my door to tell me what to do.  A phone call or email would be much better for everyone involved, and a zillion times more productive.

??  I'm new here too, I mean no offense to you or anyone here, but the whole reason armed agents will probably be going to my neighbor's house is because he's not like you, or me, or probably anyone else here.  I HAVE talked to him.  Several times.  He simply doesn't get it.  I'm not going to move because of it, and I'm not trying to blow the whole thing out of proportion (that's what I meant about it not being a big deal, calling the cops IS a big deal).  It's just a simple fact that I've learned to deal with...the guy isn't getting it, and I'm sure he's going to infringe on my rights AGAIN, and when he does, I don't want to argue with him, I don't want to go and push him around or hit him, I don't want to brandish a weapon.  It's not worth doing something stupid and getting myself into trouble, which is what any of these things would lead to.  I want HIM to have a moment of clarity, for disrespecting my rights serially and not responding to my neighborly requests to quit it.  If this doesn't make sense, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but again, I mean no disrespect, and I promise you that if YOU were my neighbor, you'd find that I was a good neighbor who minds his own business and stays on his side of the property line, unless you have an emergency and need help, in which case I'll be there.  :)
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: pelletfarmer on January 24, 2013, 09:01:45 PM
> that's what I meant about it not being a big deal, calling the cops IS a big deal

Darn, now I'm more confused than when I started!  So is it a big deal or not?

Anyway, I'm not looking to argue and you haven't a chance at offending me, so don't even think about that.  All I really wanted to know is what I said I really wanted to know, at the beginning...

"My main question is this.  If you have determined that nothing will stop your neighbor except the actual threat of physical violence if he continues, why wouldn't you do it yourself?  I don't mean to be rude or sarcastic; I'm genuinely interested in your thinking on the matter.  Most people will say they find something "civil" in having someone else do the dirty work, and I can't figure that part out.  If I hire a goon to go steal your stuff, would you not consider me a thief?  How would my having an agent somehow change my position?  Thanks if you can clarify at all."

If the entirety of your clarification is, "That's how everyone does it here," then fine; you can leave it at that.  If you've got anything else, I remain interested.  Any other options, I'll manage with those too.

You see, I'm in the Midwest too and I'm trying to practice!
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: pelletfarmer on January 24, 2013, 09:15:20 PM
Oops, my mistake...you did clarify a bit more, with this:

> It's not worth doing something stupid and getting myself into trouble, which is what any of these things would lead to.

I'm so lousy at Pragmatism that sometimes I don't recognize it when I see it.  You don't want to handle it yourself because then others will send armed agents against you for handling it.  I get it, and sorry about that.  Lot of armed agents though, I gotta say.

So as payback, I'll give you this for free...

> I want HIM to have a moment of clarity, for disrespecting my rights serially and not responding to my neighborly requests to quit it.

Trust me...it doesn't matter what you or any number of armed agents do.  The guy will probably never have a moment of clarity and even if he ever does, you can't give it to him.  So speaking pragmatically, that would be a waste of your time if that's really your goal.

Hope that helps.  Again, sorry I missed that.
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: Brownhouse on January 24, 2013, 09:37:02 PM
Ha ha, no, the goal is to keep my trees from getting cut down and to keep his trash off my property.  The "clarity" would be a bonus, but if he doesn't get that, the trees and trash would be enough.  :)  But yes, you did see that, so cool.

I suppose I know what you mean, when you said that you're trying to practice, I mentioned something about this before, about how living in a more urban area, you really CAN'T experience life or practice much for how things will be in a more rural area, you're forced to partake of what's around you.  Regarding issues like this, my personal take is, while I don't think I'm "brainwashed" by modern society, I also don't want to go too far in the opposite direction.  I'm living my life, I'm definitely aware of the "problems" that are brewing and I'm preparing in my own way for them (probably more thoroughly than 99% of the people in my area) but I don't take it too far.  Not because I'm ignorant or brainwashed, just that that is the nature of living life, at least it is for me.  You could call it my calculated gamble.  Just my observation, on which I'm open to other's views.
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: patrick04 on January 24, 2013, 09:58:32 PM
Whoa, it's like the Wild West out here!  What the heck happened?  So, an anarchist, a Libertarian, and a libertarian walk into a bar....  5 hours later....  J/k  :P

If anyone else has recommendations for engineering jobs and good places to live in Wyoming, let me know   ;D
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: pelletfarmer on January 25, 2013, 06:38:04 AM
Since you seem moderately interested, I'll share my take.  As I said, I just suck at Pragmatism.  To me, everything is hierarchical principle.  So when you say, "the goal is to keep my trees from getting cut down and to keep his trash off my property," that sounds like a perfectly reasonable goal.  I don't want his trash on my property either.

The thing is, goals are hierarchical.  To me, the decision not to be a thug against others, except in the most extreme cases of the absolutely necessary defense of my very existence, is a higher goal than anything having to do with material property or even trash.  I mean, it's all about property ultimately---"I own myself" being the pinnacle.  We can thank FSW's own Mama Liberty for that one, I believe, even though it's kinda obvious.  Anyway, for me, the decision not to interact with others on a coercive basis is a much higher goal than any nitwit who can't control his trash.  And like I said, if it were really intolerable, I still wouldn't turn myself into a thug to get him to stop.  There are lots of strategies short of that IMO.

My real point was that having agents do something for you, is the same as doing it yourself.  Hence if I did decide that physical force were actually necessary against someone else, I wouldn't look for somebody else to do the wet work, so to speak.  And further, I think one of the reasons we're in such a mess is because people have been convinced that as long as somebody else is doing the dirty work for them, they're not responsible.  I think that's terribly wrong.  I'd say it's this imagined abdication of responsibility by otherwise decent people, that's let a bunch of thuggish looters and moochers take over the country.

BTW I think it'd be terribly wrong for you to go over there and blow his head off for dumping trash.  OTOH were you to do something crazy like that, I wouldn't take it as any of my business except insofar that a) I'd keep a very close eye on you, and b) I'd be very careful not to cross your property line.  What I wouldn't do is attempt to take vengeance for however he chose to live his life and whatever consequences he suffered for it.  That's another thing that got us into this mess, the belief that an "eye for an eye" is some sort of justice.  Formally it's the Fallacy of Tu Quoque ("He did iit") writ large.

Thanks for the opportunity for me to explain this stuff.  I suppose it'll serve as my "introduction and hello" too.  My name is Jim Klein and I've been following this place for a while.  For my money, the only way this country--maybe even the species--survives, is for the huge majority of the decent people who just want to live and trade among each other, start thinking--and especially acting--like most of the folk here.
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: pelletfarmer on January 25, 2013, 06:48:22 AM
Erratum:  The Fallacy of Tu Quoque means "You did it."  It's the action we teach all young children is wrong, and then spend the rest of their lives teaching them that it's right.  Little wonder everyone ends up so confused.
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: Brownhouse on January 25, 2013, 07:36:10 AM
Well thanks for the explanation Jim.  You sound like a good guy and a good neighbor.  :)  For the most part, I live and let live.  I go out of my way not to impose myself on others, and I expect the same.  Some things I let go, and I suppose you could say I also have my pet peeves.  Usually good people can work their differences out civilly, I'm willing to do this too.  Some things are just over the line for me...and some people aren't good people.  It's not for me to judge, but when it's important to me, I will assert my rights.
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: MamaLiberty on January 25, 2013, 08:09:37 AM
And, just to expand the discussion a bit, there are also things neighbors do that can't be fixed with much of anything except moving.

As an example, most of the residents of my area have large "yard lights," high on big poles. No idea why, actually, but there they are. Some places have more than one. The people on the next to the next lot to the north have SIX of the damned things, some that nauseating pink/orange color. They bought the lot next door to me after the house burned down and the owner died. They cleaned up the lot and repaired the garage, all of which was very welcome. And then they put ANOTHER big pink/orange light right in the middle of it. A "security light" with nothing to guard.

I went and talked to the man who owns it. He has a business on his property and lots of trucks. I can understand that he wants some security lights. But seven of them? And one shining that pink/orange glow into my house every night? He said he plans to build a workshop complex on that property next year, and had no interest in turning off the light.  He's been a good neighbor otherwise.

Ok... the light invades my space. I can't see the stars. I HATE the pink/orange light even worse than the white ones. Each evening I would close the curtains and cuss the light. I found my self saying often, "Oh, I hate that light." Or such like phrases. Only made me madder and more frustrated.

Had to sit myself down and think about it.

1. Not a threat to my life or property, just an annoyance
2. Not worth hassling with an otherwise good neighbor
3. I don't intend to move
4. No legal or official recourse possible, even if I was willing to use them

So, I decided to stop reinforcing the negative hate and frustration simply by no longer repeating the mantra of how much I hate that light. No, it's not easy and I backslide occasionally, but it's getting better. I often don't notice the light now until I go to shut the curtains before bed.

I still can't see the stars, and that makes me sad. But my anger and frustration were doing nothing to solve the problem, made no difference to the neighbor (especially since he knew nothing about it), and only damaged me and my joy in my home.

Some things just have to be lived with. Utopia is not an option. :) Not even close.
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: pelletfarmer on January 25, 2013, 08:34:19 AM
Your tolerance is admirable ML, but I'd still like to think there's a resolution.  After all, your not seeing the stars is a pretty big deal and he should be able to understand that.  If his angle is security, you could explain (very clearly!) that security comes in many forms and his security will be greatly enhanced having a neighbor who's nearly always there, being grateful for his important (to you) accommodation.  I know I'd go for that logic in a heartbeat.

If he's not quite that logical, there still should be some way that he can have his (lessened!) security and you can have your view; there are lots and lots of ways to direct and block lighting.

If he seriously doesn't care at all about you or your life there, then I think you're exactly right about, "Live and let live."  Hierarchy, of course.
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: Cyclonesteve on January 25, 2013, 09:11:50 AM
I think it's fine for Brownhouse to call a LEO to talk to the other guy. (after talking to him himself and trying to work it out)

Would it be great if he could handle it himself? Yes, of course. Could he handle it himself? Yes. Should he risk losing his property, freedom or his life because it's "wrong" to call a LEO? Not in my opinion. If the guy with the light ML talked about was dumping tires on her property instead of light she shouldn't have to move from her home or risk jail/lose her land in a lawsuit to take care of the problem. Would it be great if she or Brownstone COULD handle it themselves without risking jail or getting sued? Yes, but we don't live in a perfect free world, if it was I would have a pony & a puppy.  ;D
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: MamaLiberty on January 25, 2013, 09:22:19 AM
If his angle is security, you could explain (very clearly!) that security comes in many forms and his security will be greatly enhanced having a neighbor who's nearly always there, being grateful for his important (to you) accommodation.  I know I'd go for that logic in a heartbeat.

He knows I'm armed, and perfectly willing to assist with anything that might happen. Not sure how much help I'd be... especially at night, but that's not really an issue. I KNEW there were yard lights here when I got the place, and made up my mind to put up with it. They were all the "white" ones then, so it wasn't bad. It's the damned pink things I despise. There are five of them in the neighborhood now, but this one is the worst for me. Maybe I could buy him a white bulb?

Quote
If he's not quite that logical, there still should be some way that he can have his (lessened!) security and you can have your view; there are lots and lots of ways to direct and block lighting.

My trees won't be tall enough to help any time soon (try never), and I don't know what else might help, but I might be able to approach him with something once they start to build. It will make a big difference how tall the building is and WHERE it is on the property. If the building blocks even some of that light, I'll be happy.

Quote
If he seriously doesn't care at all about you or your life there, then I think you're exactly right about, "Live and let live."  Hierarchy, of course.

I don't think it's a matter of him not caring at all about me. I didn't make a big fuss about it, so he probably doesn't understand my problem with it. It's up to me to make a greater effort if it's that important to me.  But in the end, if we choose to live in a neighborhood, even as spread out as this one, we have to endure some things we don't like. We can't all have everything we want.

Here's my neighborhood, as it looked the first year. Not too bad... :)

http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/images/FSW/wyoming/rainbow07.jpg (http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/images/FSW/wyoming/rainbow07.jpg)
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: Paul Bonneau on January 25, 2013, 09:29:16 AM
Susan, maybe we ought to start a "Beautiful Wyoming Night Skies Association". I too am irritated with those pole lights, particularly the halogen ones with a lot of blue light that wash out the atmosphere (the yellow sodium are the least harmful). Maybe we can start to talk people into being good neighbors and not using them, or at least into putting covers on them to prevent light escaping the immediate area. We can lobby the legislature - NOT.   :)

While I fully agree that sending an armed agent over to the neighbor is the same as going over armed yourself (except less risky to yourself and therefore less admirable), we have to realize that in any society there will be means to keep neighbors within reasonable bounds of conduct. But in our society, government has usurped much of the means (there is still the possibility of fencing and the like). It's a bit like the situation with roads. You know in a free society there would be roads, but government has usurped the road function, so we use the government roads. I'm a bit less inclined to look down on someone, particularly someone in a city, for calling an armed agent when all other alternatives don't work (provided its a provocation you can't simply put up with). We maybe tend to judge others more than we should. Anyway it's doubtful a SWAT team will be called out for trash on the neighbor's yard...
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: MamaLiberty on January 25, 2013, 09:30:29 AM
Would it be great if she or Brownstone COULD handle it themselves without risking jail or getting sued? Yes, but we don't live in a perfect free world, if it was I would have a pony & a puppy.  ;D

Indeed... but as far as I'm concerned, the only thing that would require defensive force is something that threatened my life. I'm not prepared to use force for much of anything else. Everything else is pretty much negotiable in THIS kind of community. In a big city? Whole different can of worms.
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: pelletfarmer on January 25, 2013, 03:39:59 PM
> at least into putting covers on them to prevent light escaping the immediate area.

Yeah, that makes great sense.  There should be some way to limit the light to the desired area, a partial shield or something.  I'm in the country myself and virtually everyone here has one, but they're not getting into anyone's field of vision.  I guess it's the same issue as smoking or barbecues or noise.

This stuff is why I'm utterly convinced that the way of the future is small, very tight communities.


> it's doubtful a SWAT team will be called out for trash on the neighbor's yard

Ha...not until the second visit, anyway.
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: 300dragonflies on January 25, 2013, 04:09:46 PM
Susan, maybe we ought to start a "Beautiful Wyoming Night Skies Association". I too am irritated with those pole lights, particularly the halogen ones with a lot of blue light that wash out the atmosphere (the yellow sodium are the least harmful). Maybe we can start to talk people into being good neighbors and not using them, or at least into putting covers on them to prevent light escaping the immediate area. We can lobby the legislature - NOT.   :)

While I fully agree that sending an armed agent over to the neighbor is the same as going over armed yourself (except less risky to yourself and therefore less admirable), we have to realize that in any society there will be means to keep neighbors within reasonable bounds of conduct. But in our society, government has usurped much of the means (there is still the possibility of fencing and the like). It's a bit like the situation with roads. You know in a free society there would be roads, but government has usurped the road function, so we use the government roads. I'm a bit less inclined to look down on someone, particularly someone in a city, for calling an armed agent when all other alternatives don't work (provided its a provocation you can't simply put up with). We maybe tend to judge others more than we should. Anyway it's doubtful a SWAT team will be called out for trash on the neighbor's yard...

Oh my gosh. And then the Wyoming Night Skies Association would get legislation passed that said that outdoor lights can't bleed onto neighboring properties or into the night sky?

Hmmm....something a bit wrong with that approach, somehow, although I agree with the goal - my neighbor shouldn't have a light that shines into my house or onto my property.

Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: Paul Bonneau on January 25, 2013, 05:10:37 PM
Read again. I specifically eliminated the idea of legislation.  :)
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: pelletfarmer on January 26, 2013, 05:41:30 AM
Besides...if someone really wanted to turn to arms, she could just shoot out the lights!
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: MamaLiberty on January 26, 2013, 05:43:51 AM
Besides...if someone really wanted to turn to arms, she could just shoot out the lights!

Trust me... the thought HAS crossed my mind... but... sigh
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: KTKEWW on January 27, 2013, 09:34:46 PM
Quote
Question:

If I shoot a deer on land I have permission to hunt on, and the deer jumps over a fence to someone else's land am I out of luck? I know the happy answer is work it out with the other landowner, but if the other land owner says thanks for the fresh meat and takes it home am I out of luck? Are they stealing? Who gets to decide? How is that decision enforced?

Steve,

   If an ill placed shot (or as I tell myself, a VERY robust whitetail) decides to take its last breath across a property line, friendly or not, I call to let them know where and why I’ll be there. This includes the State Park Rangers, which also borders some hunting ground of mine.  I have heard tales that what you posed has happened, and just mentioning to the property owner that you will be contacting the DNR to let them know you have made every attempt to tag your deer, but cannot, will resolve the issue in rapid fashion.

   Yes, this is another armed leg of tptb, and you’d be “threatening” to use their force, but that is what our unborn grandchildren will be paying taxes for. The neighbor will very quickly realize that with one well-placed call, they would be facing time in prison and a potential felony charge for many numbers of reasons.

   As a matter of fact, one story in particular ended with the neighbor lending the hunter his quad!  :D ;D :D

   YMMV, and this was not in WY
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: MamaLiberty on January 28, 2013, 06:30:39 AM
   Yes, this is another armed leg of tptb, and you’d be “threatening” to use their force, but that is what our unborn grandchildren will be paying taxes for. The neighbor will very quickly realize that with one well-placed call, they would be facing time in prison and a potential felony charge for many numbers of reasons.

And so, with that threat you've totally alienated that land owner, probably permanently. Might work if you never wanted to hunt there again... but might work much better for everyone to negotiate without threats. Just an idea. Not saying you, personally, wouldn't consider friendly negotiations first, but I wouldn't think threats like this productive even if that failed. Would seem far better to me to just keep on hunting...
Title: Re: introduction and hello
Post by: MamaLiberty on February 09, 2013, 03:53:54 PM
Welcome, kharakterc! You'll need to make at least 5 (I think) reply posts before you'll be able to start a thread.

I live in Weston county, just a hop, skip and a jump from Crook... we like it best here, but you'll get the sales pitch from the others in Crook, no doubt. LOL

Hope you can get here in time to attend the annual camp out. No date set yet, but we're working on it.

I'm a So. Calif. escapee from the high desert area between Victorville and Yucca Valley, also a retired AP RN, so I suspect we'll have lots to talk about. :)