Free State Wyoming Forum
Prospective Free State Wyoming (FSW) Members and Interested Parties => Prospective Free State Wyoming (FSW) Members and Interested Parties => Topic started by: zallen on January 24, 2007, 01:29:46 PM
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Ok I'm a total newb here so let me explain my reasons for asking.? Also please forgive my rambling...
First off I've wanted to live free for some years now (since my eyes were finally opened) and get increasingly agitated, agravated, frustrated and any other "ated" you can think of.? Some of my first forays into this began after reading a few of Vin Suprynowicz's columns in the ShotGun News (Sorry Boston - you came later).? In the interest of full disclosure I at first thought "this guy (V.S.) is a total ass".? Then I read it again and checked out his facts.? DING!?
I started reading everything I could lay my hands on and eventually found out about The Free State Project.? Awesome says I, it's right here in my own home state of NH!? I tried to join immediately but was told I couldn't because I was already here.? Undeterred I lurked on the blogs and listened to what these "great people" had to say.
............................... Man, what a disappointment.
They have thus far met none of their goals, take no active part in trying to get Libertarians elected, and are - as I like to say- all show and no go.?
I'm just a working slob, not an engineer or grand high mucky muck.? To my eyes these guys are sycophantic pin heads.? Far from trying to be a community they shun anyone who does not agree with every little nuance they sputter.
Then I ran across FSW thanks to one of Boston's books (not Molon Labe incidentally) and said this looks more like it.? I agree with Boston on many of the points he laid out in favor of Wyoming, but I have some concerns.
Are FSW people talkers or walkers ?? From what little I've read here you seem to have quite a few down to earth people and that's what I'm looking for.? Free Staters seem to be more interested in arguing the semantics of Libertarianism than in actually getting anything done.? I'm not a Libertarian in the truest sense but I do lean that way.? I just want to live someplace where I can be left alone if that's what I choose.
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I might be a bit biased, as I run/host the Forum, but I'd have to say FSW is a group for doers.
* Quite a few people have moved to Wyoming already (including families) or are in the process of moving. I don't have any numbers, Boston would have to provide those.
* This Forum, while quite active, is just a starting point. Those in Wyoming are building their relationships/communities. They are hosting get togethers, organized and impromptu.
* This spring will be the fourth Jam. Last year there were 125+ people in attendance from across Wyoming and the US. Heck, I drove from Cleveland, OH with my wife to attend. I'll be doing the same again this spring, and with the kids in tow this time to boot. Mac came up from Nevada. Lance came up California. etc. etc.
* Involvement in the political scene is made easier by the efforts of Paul B over in his Liberty Index area of the Forum. If politics is your thing, contact him. He can point you in the right direction or put you to work helping out with the Index. hehe
* There is no "official" party line to toe. We've got everything from hard core Libertarians to pro-gun Republicans and more. Read enough of the threads and you'll find some of the debates get quite rough and tumble. If the debate gets into a flame war, yeah we'll step in. As long as one is debating ideas and facts, debate away. Yeah, you'll find semantics arguements here also, but we try to keep those to a minimum as the goal is to "get boots on the ground" in Wyoming.
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Wow, that was fast.? Thanks.
While I love a good rational debate politics are definitely not my thing.?
You say you drove from Ohio?? Do you have plans on making a move ?? Is your wife intersted in it as well or just going because you are ?? If you'd rather not answer I understand.? The reason I ask is my wife is very reluctant to make that big a move.? I've only recently had any success getting her interested at all.? I think I might be able to persuade her - but it's going to mean persuading her sister and her husband as well.? He hates the cold.
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Wow, that was fast. Thanks.
hehe Just lucky timing. I randomly pop in to check things throughout the day.
You say you drove from Ohio? Do you have plans on making a move ? Is your wife intersted in it as well or just going because you are ? If you'd rather not answer I understand. The reason I ask is my wife is very reluctant to make that big a move. I've only recently had any success getting her interested at all. I think I might be able to persuade her - but it's going to mean persuading her sister and her husband as well. He hates the cold.
I'd like to eventually. I'd move in a heartbeat if it were just me. But reluctant wife, kids, and to much debt present quite an obstacle at this time.
My wife is somewhat interested but doesn't want to live so far from family. She's also a year into building a web design and consulting business. I'm working on my wife though.
I've got three kids who live in Dayton with their mother (my ex-wife). Not much I can do about that situation right now.
We're working on paying off a mountain of debt.
In the meantime, I do what I can to spread the word to others.
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HEY! Welcome, Zallen. I've enjoyed your posts and you sound like a lot of us on this Board; but I do have a quick question: You mentioned that your wife's sister's husband "hates the cold", well then how in the world does he put up with NH? Last I heard it gets pretty cold up there as well. Of course what do I know about the cold; I live in Arkansas where we shiver at 30+ degrees!!
Shalom, Dr. Alan
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HEY! Welcome, Zallen. I've enjoyed your posts and you sound like a lot of us on this Board; but I do have a quick question: You mentioned that your wife's sister's husband "hates the cold", well then how in the world does he put up with NH? Last I heard it gets pretty cold up there as well. Of course what do I know about the cold; I live in Arkansas where we shiver at 30+ degrees!!
Shalom, Dr. Alan
He puts up with the cold because he loves his wife. My wife and her sister are inseperable. My wife and I spent 5 years in
My brother-in-law would love to move to FL but short of divorcing my wife's sister it's not going to happen. She won't leave my wife (and we're not going!!!!!!!!!) So basically we're a package deal ;D
As far as the temp today it's 6 with wind chill to -20. That's winter and it doesn't bother me in the least. The way I see it there's only a few things keeping me here now.
My parents - my grandfather, whom I loved dearly, passed away while I was in FL and I won't take my children away from my parents.
My wife and her sister (this one shouldn't be too hard, my wife loves me (G*d knows why, but she does) and knows it's what I want.
Employment - I'm hoping to be gainfully self employed by the time I'm ready to pull up stakes. G*d willing.
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Howdy Zallen, glad you found us. So if you already live in NH the FSP won't let you join ? Thats weird. We have several Wyoming folks here and I hope many more will join us. I guess all I can say is to see if you can get your wife and inlaws to take a "vacation" to Wyoming during the JAM this spring. It is a great way to meet many of the people here and you and yours will get a real feel for us. Take your time and look around. Lots of great info here and if possible see if your wife or sister in law will take a look at the ladies threads. Have them ask any questions they may have. Miles
http://www.fundamentalsoffreedom.com/fswforum/index.php?board=46.0
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When and where is the "Jam" ?
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Here is the thread. Boston will fill in the blanks soon. Miles
http://www.fundamentalsoffreedom.com/fswforum/index.php?topic=3143.0
BTP NOTE:
http://www.fundamentalsoffreedom.com/fswforum//index.php?topic=3143.msg26567#msg26567[/color]
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Oh, and Zallen, the daytime high temp here in Newcastle, WY today is 50 degrees, and it's only supposed to be about 39 tonight... I had some windows open for an hour or so around noon.
Of course, that's not the usual for January here, but we're enjoying it. :)
I came from the desert of Southern California. If I can adjust to Wyoming weather, seems almost anyone else should be able to. It's more than worth it to breathe free and have elbow room... with great neighbors and friends all around besides.
Hope you can all come to the Jam. Let us know how we can help! MamaLiberty
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With my southern facing blinds open, but the windows closed, it got to 73 in my house today! :o
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Gotta love that Wyoming sunshine. Miles
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Oh, and Zallen, the daytime high temp here in Newcastle, WY today is 50 degrees, and it's only supposed to be about 39 tonight...? I had some windows open for an hour or so around noon.
Of course, that's not the usual for January here, but we're enjoying it. :)
I came from the desert of Southern California. If I can adjust to Wyoming weather, seems almost anyone else should be able to. It's more than worth it to breathe free and have elbow room... with great neighbors and friends all around besides.
Hope you can all come to the Jam. Let us know how we can help! MamaLiberty
Thanks, that means quite a bit to me. Did you move out for the FSW or is it just lucky happen stance ? Is your spouse involved ?
I don't mean to pry, but I've been "working" on my wife for some time now. She made me quite happy last night by the way; they're passing a law in ME that makes it illegal to smoke in your own car if children are present - (neither of us smoke btw) my darling wife said "that's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard" G*d I love that woman! Our own "Live Free or Die" state is becoming less free every year as well. It's nice to not have to grumble to myself about it all the time.
I actually mentioned wanting to vacation in WY this year (I even told her "For this, I'll even fly out" now she has a proper perspective on my commitment - I love flying, but I HATE all the bs.)
Probably won't make it this year though. The economy has really tanked here (at least the housing industry) and things are pretty tight. I look forward to some reports though! :)
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Thanks, that means quite a bit to me. Did you move out for the FSW or is it just lucky happen stance ? Is your spouse involved ?
Zallen, I don't mind at all sharing with you here. I moved to Wyoming FIRST because I believed that's what God wanted me to do. I was already talking to the FSW bunch for quite a while before, and joined them when I got here. They've helped me so much, and I know I would not be here except for their encouragement and presence in Wyoming.
I've been a widow for more than 20 years, so I came all alone. My dear Joe would have loved Wyoming. Sure wish we'd come when he could have come with me. Such is life... ML
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Zallen,
Scrape every dime you can together and get to the jam.? It will sell it self.? Jobs are in abundance NOW.? You can make great money have great friends with liberty on their minds and in their hearts.? And scenery is great as well.
Just get to the jam, it will answer the questions and let you breathe some Free air for a while :D.
Regards, Danl ~W~
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Free Staters seem to be more interested in arguing the semantics of Libertarianism than in actually getting anything done.
Well, we shouldn't be too hard on them. We too have our debates over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. :) Part of the reason you see that, I think, is people just waiting for things to get straightened out so they can move. They aren't IN Wyoming (or NH) yet, so all they can do is spend time on forums.
The economy has really tanked here (at least the housing industry) and things are pretty tight.
If you're a builder, Wyoming is the place to be. There is a severe shortage of housing in some parts of Wyoming, due to the energy boom.
I don't mean to pry, but I've been "working" on my wife for some time now.
Ah, the usual problem. :) Somehow, the ladies have trouble visualizing living in Wyoming. It took me a couple of years of the soft sell to get my wife to buy in, and for her it is still only going to be about half-time. A couple of things that might help: If your wife likes horses (many do), Wyoming is horse crazy. And the people are nice and friendly here; they don't have that hard edge that many big-city folks have. And there is lots to do, especially if you're the outdoor type.
As to your original question, the difference between FSW and FSP, yes there are some differences. FSW is a little more informal, I guess you'd say. There was nothing like the silly pledge and "20,000 movers by a certain date" and having 4999 strangers deciding where you are going to move. ::) But FSP does have some good points; for example they seem to be more active politically (which is something that needs to be done, really - you can't ignore the legislature). The difference is more a matter of taste than anything. Some people like Western ways of doing things more than Eastern ways.
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Somehow, the ladies have trouble visualizing living in Wyoming.
I must be one of the weird wives then. As soon as my hubby said he wanted to move here I said "let's start packing!" I was just too happy to get out of Raleigh ;D
Hope you get to come out here this year Zallen! Budget like crazy and make it happen.
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Did you all have jobs before moving out ? I did a 5yr stretch in Jacksonville FL (actually I think I might have preffered prison in NH than "freedom" in JAX) with my wife. We finally came to our senses, sold the house and left for NH (home). No jobs and no place to live. It was definitely worth the reward but I'd rather not do it again. My ideal would be self-employment since taking orders is not something I do well. ;D
Well I think I see myself drifting way off the topic of this thread ;) so I'll start lurking elsewhere on the board. Thanks to all who replied, I think I have my answer.
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Hello Zallen,
I really should post this in the moving to WY thread but..dh, the kids and I came out here for a vacation in late 2005 and while here dh talked to a company about possible work. Two months after we got home from our vacation they called, asked for a resume, did phone interviews and then we were out here a month later. So our 2-3 year plan went down to 3 months 8) So, we were fortunate that he had a job lined up and they paid for the moving truck expenses plus a little more.
Look in the jobs board threads and you'll probably get more info on what's available and/or where to look to see what job opportunities are here.
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Free Staters seem to be more interested in arguing the semantics of Libertarianism than in actually getting anything done.
??? FSPers have gotten 20 of their members elected to political office in NH. I'm confused how you could say that. Although, I must admit, there is something of an inquisition when it comes to libertarianism...it is something of a purist organization.
The difference is more a matter of taste than anything. Some people like Western ways of doing things more than Eastern ways.
As an Eastern newbie, I must ask, what "Western ways" do you speak of and how are they different than "Eastern ways?"
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The difference is more a matter of taste than anything. Some people like Western ways of doing things more than Eastern ways.
As an Eastern newbie, I must ask, what "Western ways" do you speak of and how are they different than "Eastern ways?"
Well I can't speak for "Western Ways" but I'm a life long right coaster (although it's going increasingly left). First off lets face facts - there are schmucks everywhere but here in NE where I live (currently ;D) it seems (to most of the natives) that most of the schmucks come from MA. Sorry if anyone on the board is from there, but honestly, WTF?
I was quite upset when they voted Deval Patrick in as the new head moonbat because that just means people will be leaving in droves. This usually wouldn't concern me but they all head into my state! They might not like Deval but they are just as left of center as Kennedy and Kerry. They bring all their "There ought to be a law!" bs here.
Soooo...... I think what he meant is that out west people are more of the live and let live type while the lefties on the right coast are tax and let's tax some more. >:(
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Zallen, glad ya found us. How is FSW any different from "The other Group"?? We have no central command or other sort of contrived effort at guiding our thoughts or actions, rather,,,, this is an INSPIRED effort. I do not believe it mere circumstance that the Almighty chose to reveal a message of hope for a return to the Constitution and Bill of Rights to someone who also happened to be an accomplished author. We who are in this "FSW" are by our nature fiercly independant and self reliant. I and I alone am responsible for providing for and protecting my family, friends and loved ones. Here comes the 3 yr old, will type more later
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While I currently live in the midwest, I have spent considerable time in AZ, as all of my family is there. I have also spent many years traveling various parts of the West from the NW to the plains to TX to AZ and in between. For the record, I have also spent a lot of business time in eastern MA/CT and parts of NY State.
These are my observations followed with opinions:
The folks in the East are generally very short with you, or so it appears to non-Easterners. Some will only give a 'snide' look followed by short, no smile remarks. During dinner/or a meal, they will often talk over you, through you and around you. I was told this is 'normal'. I thought it extremely RUDE. It is very much a hurry up atmosphere. There is no relaxing in the 'traditional' sense. Mistakes are something to blame someone for, not figure out what is wrong and fix it. Lots of anger. Seems to be a lot of frustration. I would say something about Boston, MA specifically, but...(biting tongue). Most New Englanders love their beautiful states and would never leave, ever. I can understand that.
West: Folks are wary of outsiders, more so outside cities, but friendly. You will be quickly sized up as a 'threat' or not. If not, heaps of hospitality will cover you. If a threat/unfriendly/unrespectful, you will be minimally helped with hopes of you leaving ASAP. (I have seen this happen a couple of times-well founded concerns). In many places in the West, folks have walked right up (and I them) and started conversations like they've know me all their life. In the East, this would be suspicious, at best. Relaxing means relaxing, sometimes saying nothing. Plain speaking is respected. Game playing in conversation is decidedly NOT.
Big cities, like Phoenix are, IMO, no longer follow the 'rules of the West'. Phoenix has been 'ruined', IMO, by the influx of Kalifornia refugees during the 80's/90's. They brought their govco intrusionist philosophies and nasty driving habits with them. Just the way it is. In the 60's, it was not unusual to see someone on a horse (packing heat) on the outskirts of town, especially Scottsdale. I have not seen that for at least ten years.
NE'ers place great importance on heritage- if you're not three honorable generations deep in NE, you ain't much. If you're not educated at some high mucky muck Ivy League or something similar, you're a 'lower' class. Education is frequently asked about in professional circles and is even on some business cards!
In the West, you will be given some benefit of the doubt up front. Your heritage is not that important, maybe interesting conversation, but not that important unless you have a history of being a problem. Honesty is a highly sought after commodity and well respected in the West. If you are full of BS or lie, you WILL BE shunned. If you do what you say, respect other folks property and are willing to put in a fair days work, all is fine. Folks will be courteous, but liars and dishonest types are on their own. Part of the live and let live (within some bounds) philosophy.
Eastern folks can be friendly if; you are an Easterner or have Eastern 'heritage' (my grandfather was from NY, but nullified by my great grandfather being from Oregon), they want something (no kidding) or they finally get to know you (takes gobs of time, if ever). Accents are most telling. And yes, I do still have some friends out there.
Property rights in the East don't mean that much. Government is highly intrusive, especially in cities/towns. Taxes are many and high. Protecting yourself in the East means calling the cops. Really. I've been told such, more than once.
(Qualifier: BIG cities notwithstanding) Property rights in the West are highly valued. Govco is less intrusive, as most folks reject or don't want the 'help'. Taxes are generally fewer and less. Protecting yourself and your neighbors is EXPECTED. The cops can't be everywhere and with distances and low population densities, you will be taking care of yourself, AND your neighbors by default. The cops are usually NOT called first, they are simply backup for serious stuff or handling caught criminals. Self reliance is the standard.
Folks out West tend to be more independent and will fend for themselves more often that not. Govco is seen as an intrusion and impediment to getting things done. In the East it is, generally, the opposite, as govco approval is needed/wanted just to __________ .(fill in the blank with almost anything)
Open range (a few general rules) vs. tightly observed property and fence lines. Castle doctrine generally applies in the West (and a few Midwest states). In the East, no, if you shoot an intruder, you will be the one in jail.
These are just my observations over several decades. By no means do I mean to insult any Easterners. You Easterners know the habits and nutty pace of life there. I'll admit, the countryside-(way out) is more relaxed, but nothing like out West or even in the Midwest. The scenery in NE was beautiful, but the price in lost freedom and short fused folks was/is not worth it-for me.
Life in the West can be harsh and unforgiving if you decide to live outside the 'comforts' of a large city. Respect for physical surroundings and people are an integral part of life. Yes, there are all kinds of personalities everywhere, that's part of what makes life so interesting?
Many simple things, like water, can be tough to get. Fire protection may mean an evacuation plan instead of fighting a fire, particularly a wildfire. Snowed in can mean many days or more without electricity and access to the outside world. Travel on mountain roads without guardrails has a certain 'pucker factor' that is not for the faint of heart, add snow and yikes!, better to just stay home if you can. Snow plowing may only happen after 4-6 inches of snow and then not everyday. Roads off the main highways are usually gravel and in various states of maintenance. IMHO, these kinds of living conditions cause folks to be more independent and resilient in the face of difficulties. Common sense applies and is a respected attribute.
These are just my observations and opinions over the years. This country boy found the attitudes in the East not conducive to a harmonious outcome. Just my personal preference. A lot of Eastern folks would never leave and think most of us not there to be 'hicks'. Fine. :) Live and let live, just keep your Socialist attitudes in the East. ~W~
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Just my 2 cents worth...
I've been reading about FSP since the beginning. I didn't join them because it seemed they expect to impose liberty on everyone else through electoral politics...
As L. Neil Smith says: My one and only "ideological" objective, now, and over the past 45 years (I became a libertarian in 1962, when I was 16 years old, nine years before the Libertarian Party was established), is to create a libertarian society in which I can live and work in freedom. In all that time, I have never been convinced that electing libertarians to office is the best way?or even a possible way?to achieve that objective. <snip>
In fact, there are so many things wrong with that idea, it's hard to know where to begin taking it apart. I guess the place to start is with the notion that freedom can be imposed on people, from the top down, by elected officials?their political "betters". This, of course, is the precise opposite of what real libertarians want to accomplish.
Those to whom it seems like a good idea often refer to themselves as "practical"?as opposed to the principled individuals they sneer at as "purists". But just how practical is it to attempt to establish a regime in which you have to militate every day against a population that you have made to feel oppressed, just to maintain whatever it is you've gained politically, instead of being able to forge ahead to new goals, with the enthusiastic support of the civilization you're a part of?
In circumstances like that, the struggle for freedom quickly degenerates into a struggle to obtain and keep power, and freedom is forgotten. It's exactly what's gone wrong with every revolution in history.
Lots more here: http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle2007/tle416-20070506-02.html
I did join FSW for a number of reasons, one of which is the idea that each of us - and in voluntary cooperation - must create/live our own liberty and demonstrate it to everyone else. It can't be imposed on anyone, any more than we will allow others to impose their philosophy on us.
That makes a lot more sense to me. ML
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I've been reading about FSP since the beginning. I didn't join them because it seemed they expect to impose liberty on everyone else through electoral politics...
It's my opinion that it's IMPOSSIBLE to "impose liberty" on someone. Liberty is simply the absence of people imposing things on you.
I think the point is not to come in and impose an unpopular agenda (which would be impossible seing as there would only 20,000 FSPers compared to 1.2 million natives). The idea is, 1, they already agree with liberty and 2, the synergistic effect of so many activists will convince more peole to embrace liberty.
I think the two organizations are different and both very useful. Although I have my concerns about both of them (for those of you that didn't read my other post, I'm the director of web advertising for the FSP...full disclosure).
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Bobcat, thanks for the answer. Very inciteful. I definitely am guilty of talking "over and around" people :-X
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While I currently live in the midwest, I have spent considerable time in AZ, as all of my family is there.? I have also spent many years traveling various parts of the West from the NW to the plains to TX to AZ and in between.? For the record, I have also spent a lot of business time in eastern MA/CT and parts of NY State.?
These are my observations followed with opinions:?
The folks in the East are generally very short with you, or so it appears to non-Easterners.? Some will only give a 'snide' look followed by short, no smile remarks.? During dinner/or a meal, they will often talk over you, through you and around you.? I was told this is 'normal'.? I thought it extremely RUDE.? It is very much a hurry up atmosphere.? There is no relaxing in the 'traditional' sense.? Mistakes are something to blame someone for, not figure out what is wrong and fix it.? Lots of anger.? Seems to be a lot of frustration.? I would say something about Boston, MA specifically, but...(biting tongue).? Most New Englanders love their beautiful states and would never leave, ever.? I can understand that.
West: Folks are wary of outsiders, more so outside cities, but friendly.? You will be quickly sized up as a 'threat' or not.? If not, heaps of hospitality will cover you.? If a threat/unfriendly/unrespectful, you will be minimally helped with hopes of you leaving ASAP.? (I have seen this happen a couple of times-well founded concerns).? In many places in the West, folks have walked right up (and I them) and started conversations like they've know me all their life.? In the East, this would be suspicious, at best.? Relaxing means relaxing, sometimes saying nothing.? Plain speaking is respected.? Game playing in conversation is decidedly NOT.
Big cities, like Phoenix are, IMO, no longer follow the 'rules of the West'.? Phoenix has been 'ruined', IMO, by the influx of Kalifornia refugees during the 80's/90's.? They brought their govco intrusionist philosophies and nasty driving habits with them.? Just the way it is.? In the 60's, it was not unusual to see someone on a horse (packing heat) on the outskirts of town, especially Scottsdale.? I have not seen that for at least ten years.
NE'ers place great importance on heritage- if you're not three honorable generations deep in NE, you ain't much.? If you're not educated at some high mucky muck Ivy League or something similar, you're a 'lower' class.? Education is frequently asked about in professional circles and is even on some business cards!
In the West, you will be given some benefit of the doubt up front.? Your heritage is not that important, maybe interesting conversation, but not that important unless you have a history of being a problem.? Honesty is a highly sought after commodity and well respected in the West.? If you are full of BS or lie, you WILL BE shunned.? If you do what you say, respect other folks property and are willing to put in a fair days work, all is fine.? Folks will be courteous, but liars and dishonest types are on their own.? Part of the live and let live (within some bounds) philosophy.
Eastern folks can be friendly if; you are an Easterner or have Eastern 'heritage' (my grandfather was from NY, but nullified by my great grandfather being from Oregon), they want something (no kidding) or they finally get to know you (takes gobs of time, if ever).? Accents are most telling.? And yes, I do still have some friends out there.
Property rights in the East don't mean that much.? Government is highly intrusive, especially in cities/towns.? Taxes are many and high.? Protecting yourself in the East means calling the cops.? Really.? I've been told such, more than once.
(Qualifier: BIG cities notwithstanding) Property rights in the West are highly valued.? Govco is less intrusive, as most folks reject or don't want the 'help'.? Taxes are generally fewer and less.? Protecting yourself and your neighbors is EXPECTED.? The cops can't be everywhere and with distances and low population densities, you will be taking care of yourself, AND your neighbors by default.? The cops are usually NOT called first, they are simply backup for serious stuff or handling caught criminals.? Self reliance is the standard.
Folks out West tend to be more independent and will fend for themselves more often that not.? Govco is seen as an intrusion and impediment to getting things done.? In the East it is, generally, the opposite, as govco approval is needed/wanted just to __________ .(fill in the blank with almost anything)
Open range (a few general rules) vs. tightly observed property and fence lines.? Castle doctrine generally applies in the West (and a few Midwest states).? In the East, no, if you shoot an intruder, you will be the one in jail.
These are just my observations over several decades.? By no means do I mean to insult any Easterners.? You Easterners know the habits and nutty pace of life there.? I'll admit, the countryside-(way out) is more relaxed, but nothing like out West or even in the Midwest.? The scenery in NE was beautiful, but the price in lost freedom and short fused folks was/is not worth it-for me.
Life in the West can be harsh and unforgiving if you decide to live outside the 'comforts' of a large city.? Respect for physical surroundings and people are an integral part of life. Yes, there are all kinds of personalities everywhere, that's part of what makes life so interesting?
Many simple things, like water, can be tough to get.? Fire protection may mean an evacuation plan instead of fighting a fire, particularly a wildfire.? Snowed in can mean many days or more without electricity and access to the outside world.? Travel on mountain roads without guardrails has a certain 'pucker factor' that is not for the faint of heart, add snow and yikes!, better to just stay home if you can.? Snow plowing may only happen after 4-6 inches of snow and then not everyday.? Roads off the main highways are usually gravel and in various states of maintenance.? IMHO, these kinds of living conditions cause folks to be more independent and resilient in the face of difficulties.? Common sense applies and is a respected attribute.
These are just my observations and opinions over the years.? This country boy found the attitudes in the East not conducive to a harmonious outcome.? Just my personal preference.? A lot of Eastern folks would never leave and think most of us not there to be 'hicks'.? Fine. :)? Live and let live, just keep your Socialist attitudes in the East. ~W~
Wow! Can you type! I'm an advocate of the hunt and peck method myself. Being a life long Yankee with the exception of 5 years in hell - I mean Florida - I have to take umbrage with a couple of your statements. I realize it's just your opinion, and this is just mine. :D
First PUH LEEZ don't paint us with such a broad brush. While I whole-heartedly agree with your assesment of Massholes and CT is just northern NYC, Southern NH and Southern ME a suburb of Boston Ma. I think if you got into the smaller Northern towns you'd find people very much like the ones you describe out west. I have to admit there does seem to be a "townie" mentality but I think this stems from people being very wary of Massholes moving into their town and voting for every tax and social program to come down the pike. We're not ALL rude snobs and sob's.
Sounds like you weren't around us "little people".
That being said...................................
I cant WAIT to move to WY !!!!!!! ;D
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Actually, I met a lot of warm and wonderful people in Massachusetts, New York, New Hampshire and Vermont when I spent a week there. The small town of Great Barrington was filled with all kinds of folks, naturally, but many of those I met in the stores, churches and byways were honest people who welcomed me generously. I didn't meet any Vermont farmers who thought Lenin was a great guy... I was born and raised in southern California, but I've never wanted to impose that statist government on anyone, and I know a lot of warm and honest people in California too.
The question here, as I understand it, wasn't the difference in the people east and west, but the difference in goal and scope between FSP and FSW.
Those who are joining these two organizations are coming from all over the country, so the focus has to be on individual goals and philosophy, seems to me, not where they're coming from. Let's not get lost in generalizations or stereotypes, please!
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sjhipple, hopefully I didn't 'incite' a riot ;), unless it would be riotous laughter at me. :D ::)
zallen: I am a keyboard typer from waaay back. Funny story. Took typing class in High School to meet girls. ;D ::) Just one of those 'dumb reason' decisions that actually has proved beneficial years down the road. ;)
Maybe I stepped in it. Not the first time. This kind of conversation is best f2f. Electronic communication is great, but it leaves a lot out. Let me see if I can extract myself...
Not intending to paint ALL with a broad brush. Sorry. Maybe I did not clarify/qualify enough. My oops. Most of my contact was city/industrial/commercial as a Sr. Application/Design Engineer. Many times issues preceded my visits from both perspectives. Folks just seem to get agitated and angry much quicker. I compare that to the Midwest, Texas, Oklahoma, Oregon. I have been hammered HARD by folks in the East. Maybe it was circumstance? After dozens of encounters, I don't think so. Could have been the region, MA and CT, parts of NY State. My best tack was to not get upset and let them vent. Eventually, things would calm and we could get something done. I just had to let the anger roll off my back. I always took copious notes in the East, as I usually needed them later. Other parts of the country, not so much. Just my experiences over many years....
However, casual contact with various people in restaraunts, hotels, airports, malls, businesses was pretty much the same. Distant, seemingly uncaring, unsmiling appeared to be the norm. I did have occasion, yes rarely, to be 'in the country' and it was much nicer. But I still found folks to be somewhat 'distant', conversant, but 'distant'. I did not necessarily take offense (that would be immature/silly on my part), I just saw it as a CULTURAL difference that I had to figure out how to communicate with. It was difficult at times. Boston, MA was just flat terrible. The two crab shacks I visited near Aberdeen, MD were quite pleasant.
Another point to make is that most of the liberals are in the East and continue to vote in the likes of Kennedy, Kerry, et al. Yes, I know, there are conservatives there, but they are few and far between. Prior to her death, I knew a Republican county chairperson. She knew it was an uphill battle and clued me in on legislative acitivities in MA. Yikes, the majority of folks in the East prefer to have more gubmint?
If you move out West, your 'talking habits' will likely change due to your being respectful of others (benefit of the doubt that you are) and just blending in. When I traveled to NE, I had to put on my East Coast game face and just deal with it. It always seemed stressful.
Oh, and you won't be standing nose to nose with folks either. Generally a few feet apart. -Respecting 'space'. Another interesting difference. ;) Just some cultural differences... The pace of life is just a little slower, but not wasteful. As MamaLiberty has put it: "It all depends."
About the only place I found in MA unstressful and relaxing was having dinner at the top of Tom's Mountain (or Mount Tom, near Springfield, MA) with predominately Midwest folks. Beautiful sunsets! NE does have beautiful geography.
I 'sorta' figured it out, but never got used to it.
Hopefully this helps. Please let me know if I still have my foot in my mouth. :)
Gotta get back to work...
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The preceeding would have taken me approximately 20 minutes of typing!! Wow.
I took typing in HS too, my problem was I was always the "nice guy". Girls at my school were only interested in the troubled James Dean types. Oh well HS was not a place I ever much liked and certainly don't miss. 'sides, I'm married with 2 kids now so I can let myself go. ;D
No harm no foul, I didn't find anything offensive what so ever. I'm a long fuse guy anyway :D Speaking of voting for Kennedy I talk with people from MA daily and they "not only have never voted for him but don't know anyone who has". Go figure.
No, as I said earlier I love my little state but it's becoming increasingly more for it's landscape than for it's population. I'd love to move to the "wide open spaces" but it's an uphill battle on my wife's side.
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I never said my strategy in typing class 'worked'. :D I got a couple of 'friends' out of the deal, but that's about it. Oh, well. It was fun and no brain strain. Besides, engineering REQUIRES typing skills.
No harm no foul, I didn't find anything offensive what so ever. I'm a long fuse guy anyway Cheesy Speaking of voting for Kennedy I talk with people from MA daily and they "not only have never voted for him but don't know anyone who has". Go figure.
Thanks. On Kennedy: Does that answer surprise you? My Repub friend in MA used to say the same thing about Kennedy and Kerry. Suspect a lot of the 'votes' for those guys are from Boston and the Eastern part of the state.
You're not alone in the 'convincing the wife' issue. My personal approach has been one of inform, inform, inform. She liked AZ to begin with so the moving part of the battle was already done. She just gave the green light to ID/MT/WY a few weeks ago. ;D Now the burden is back on me to get it done correctly. That's were FSW comes in. Network, network, network.
We were going to move/retire to AZ, but it has changed markedly in the last 20yrs, so it is likely out. Remote, and I mean remote, chance of Northern AZ above the Mogollon Rim, but it had been 'discovered' and land prices are up. It is also feeling the effects of drought with many wildfires. Prescott is possible, but the same is happening there. Very little work up there also. The work is all in expensive Phoenix.
Welcome aboard!
So that leaves ID, MT and WY. Frankly Wy has the best chance at finding an Engineering Position.
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I've been married for 17yrs as of this past Saturday. Love my wife dearly but sometimes........she can be........exasperating. Finally have her convinced that "a law for everything" is not a good thing. She's even come around on the gun issue (though I still can't get her to carry even though she has "The Permit") ::) I have a feeling she thinks of me and my opinions as "cute". Hard to discuss issues or current events because she just has no interest. 'Can't change it anyway, so what's the point?'
All in all she's coming around though. Maybe we can move on my 40th anniversary!!!! :-\
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zallen, glad to see your posts here.
I hope you've found the exchange helpful and interesting.
Perhaps we'll see you at the Jam?--
http://www.fundamentalsoffreedom.com/fswforum//index.php?topic=3143.msg26567#msg26567
from sjhipple:
I think the two organizations are different and both very useful. Although I have my concerns about both of them (for those of you that didn't read my other post, I'm the director of web advertising for the FSP...full disclosure).
Welcome here; I appreciate your comments.
Both orgs are different and useful.
While I (and most other FSWers) do not place huge faith in the
highly leveraged political scenario of the FSP, we are all free staters
and can learn from each other as we attempt to slow/confound tyranny.
Boston
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Boston I'm truly honored. I've been a fan of your writing for a long time. I would be thrilled to meet you at the jam. Unfortunately going as a family was resoundingly shot down in my house, but I think I might try to go by myself anyway. I think I might even be able to drum up a like minded friend to come along. I'll do my best.
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Great! Hope to see you there. It'll be a hoot.
Your family will want to attend with you next year!
Thanks for the kind praise.
Bring your BTP books and I'll sign 'em.
(That goes for all readers, btw...)
Boston
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As an Eastern newbie, I must ask, what "Western ways" do you speak of and how are they different than "Eastern ways?"
Ha ha, seems like my old comment stirred up a discussion. :)
Bobcat hit some points, in the general sense. Maybe went a tad overboard in places, as he noted. ;) But when I made that comment about western ways and eastern ways, I was thinking of the split in the FSP forum prior to the vote. There was a clear point-of-view thing going on there, maybe hard to describe in words but very real.
One thing is that Easterners seem to depend more on organization to get things done, with different people working in well-defined roles. The obvious example is the structure of FSP versus the non-structure of FSW. Out here everything is very informal, things get done but it is more through personal trades of this for that. Everyone seems to know everyone else.
While I too had some of the negative experiences that Bobcat had with the east coast, in my travels, I think it was more a big city thing than an east-west thing. I found lots of nice folks back east to work with.
To an easterner coming here, I'd have maybe a few points of advice. Worry about your reputation - things get around in the small towns we have here. Be easy-going and easy to work with. Cut the bullshit (unless you are telling a joke, in which case lay it on) and games, that goes over very badly here rather than rolling off peoples' backs as perhaps happens back east. Have a sense of humor. Like people by default, rather than being suspicious by default. Take things slow (I like that old John Wayne saying, "Talk low, talk slow, and don't talk too much.") Spend more time listening than talking, another way of putting it. Being a fisherman and a hunter and a gun nut takes you a long way out here; and if you aren't yet, being willing to learn is almost as good. And drive a pickup. :D But don't drive it two feet off the bumper of the guy ahead of you...
Others here might want to throw in some more tips.
Anyway, in these bits of advice (however useful, be your own judge of it) you might see some differences between an eastern and western way.
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sjhipple, hopefully I didn't 'incite' a riot ;), unless it would be riotous laughter at me. :D? ::)
Ha ha, no I didn't take any offense. I was actually saying that I thought your observations were good ones...because they matched me to an extent. That was all :)
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Free Staters seem to be more interested in arguing the semantics of Libertarianism than in actually getting anything done.
??? FSPers have gotten 20 of their members elected to political office in NH.? I'm confused how you could say that.? Although, I must admit, there is something of an inquisition when it comes to libertarianism...it is something of a purist organization.
Perhaps just my own paranoia, but I hope I didn't sound negative about the FSP. I'm actually a big believer in both of these organizations. All I was *attempting* to say, is one of the differences I've noticed (and propogated) is that the FSP is overtly libertarian and many of the members relish that image and see that it's continued. No negativity meant at all.
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Paul, thanks for saying it much better!
Could well be my opinion was heavily seasoned by most of my time in cities and the fact that many times I was sent in as a 'troubleshooter'. It sure is different out East... I found that I really had to watch my back in making gentlemen's agreements. My copious notes and shared trip reports fixed that in spades. Just life on the East coast. I could relax a little in other parts of the country.
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from sjhipple:
Although, I must admit, there is something of an inquisition when it comes to libertarianism...it is something of a purist organization.
I anticipated that back in 2003, and have tried to minimize such here.
A libertarians-only free state org simply will not get the necessary numbers...anywhere--NH or Wyoming.
We take in all types under our SofI, hence the occasional friction and poutings.
To me, it's more important that FSW members become good Riflemen vs. perfect libertarians.
Such was born out in 1775-1781, and some variant of repeat is more likely than our sweeping the national ballot box.
Boston
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While it's true there will always be disagreements the key is to work towards a common goal. Personally if everyone involved in FSW were all lockstep Libertarians I don't think we'd be any better off. I used to consider myself Republican - than just Conservative - then Libertarian - now I consider myself individualistic enough that I don't feel a need to pigeon-hole myself.
At first I was quite upset at a number of "Libertarian" principles but I listened and found myself agreeing with most.
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Here's an interesting blog entry about FSP. I see a lot of differences myself. FSW just doesn't have the organization or the political agenda.
Real Deal on the FSP http://www.libertyforall.net/?p=653
Posted in LFA Flashback by R Lee Wrights on May 11th, 2007
by Mike Ruff
FSPThere are a number of misconceptions about the Free State Project running rampant on the net. I hold no office with the FSP, but I am a member with a good understanding of the project and its goals. I propose to correct these misconceptions, both in a probably futile attempt to clean up our image some, as well as in hopes of inducing a few Liberty-minded folks who were unsure about the project to get off the fence and join us.
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People, people. people!
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Humans on this lovely Planet Earth continue to fascinate and challenge me as a mature Christian ...58 years ago as a child convert at only 7... a long-time Born-again Believer in the Lord Jesus Christ as the only Savior of mankind and the Christ, the Son of the Living God...Creator and Almighty God...and spirit-filled (as in the Books of Acts)...ordained minister and yes, I guess a Christian Zealot. In over 54 nations...I have seen and know much about challenging human facets and true lack of freedoms.?
Nothing really frightens or bothers me anymore with my eyes and attention fixed..."Front Sighted" on Jesus...the very Word of God!? ?Christ is truly the Captain of the Armies of Heaven...and we frail little humans worry?? He is the very Lord of Freedom!
Everyone, every creature wants freedom...even my dear pets and Arabian horses!? Just leave a door or gate open and they will prove it over and over again. Look at the roots of a pot bound plant and it too, wants freedom...free room to Expand, Grow and "Bloom."
FSW is a wonderful plan and a very possible plan for EXPANDING, GROWING and BLOOMING!
Glorious Wyoming is a perfect state in America to EXPAND, GROW and BLOOM!?I love being a part of this family of neighbors who love Wyoming too. Some of you I have met and some are future blessings to come.
I look forward to moving to Wyoming for the very last move in my life. My personal will states that Wyoming is where I wish to be buried.
I am not an officer or any special person of power/influence in this FSW group...I am just a female Fellow Lover of Freedom and love the FSW western lifestyle as you do. I love owning/shooting my many guns, free speech and voting. I love neighbors who treat each other with affection, dignity and respect...who obey the Golden Rule of life.
Who cares what is being said or not said in blogs, meetings and articles. Like will attract like!? What is that to you in your plans for relocating to a freer physical location?? The stronger the persecutions that come will just confirm that you are on a right target in your plans...laugh about it!? Move forward!
Just early this morning while still in my bed praying and worshipping,? I thanked God again for my "new future ranch property, new home and new place for my animals" ...in wondrous WYOMING...a place to expand, grow and bloom!? I am still in beautiful Utah for a short time, but all of the financial plans are coming into order to make my final move to Wyoming in the Lord's perfect timing.? But, I am free right now and fine right now! I am living in the "Joyful Now of my Freedoms."
Jealousy from other groups, political "wise" thinkers, fearful people and controling organizations are just part of the human flavor...and somtimes it is an odor!? Anything that keeps you bound...unfree... is not in your best interest!? ?Anything that keeps you from expanding, growing and blooming is not the best plan for your life...but this can change because you can change it!? It is also against the very Creator of Abundance!!!? Abundant Life!!!? (Read John 10:10) Most of our bondage is from inside our own heads! America is still the most free and blessed nation in the history of mankind. I confess daily that Jesus is Lord over America!
Some of you will agree with joy and gladness in my message and some will think that this is jut too "religious" for this posting and on this forum.? I really do not care about public opinions, applause or approval anymore!? Truth is always truth...history will prove it and eternity will certainly prove it.
Please know that Christianity has never been a religion...it is a love relationship with a Creator Father and His "blood bought children"...brought out of captivity...brought out of bondage...brought into Perfect Freedom by the sacrifice on the Cross by the very Lamb of God...Jesus Christ.
I was truly set free at 7 and see this fact very clearly now...whatever happens in the future of America, Wyoming, world politics, world economies, strange armies, evil and creepy leaders, deaths, terriorist attacks, prisons, financial disasters or even concentration camps with many deaths as in the past history of mankind...You can only be truly free within!? You can only die one time. ?
The physical happenings and locations you yearn for are but the added contentment in the physical realm...like the Apostle Paul and also Jesus and many others, learn to be contented where you find yourself Right Now...things can change, but what and who you are inside is the awesome key!
There is nothing to stop your plans to move to Wyoming.? You have only your life to live and give an account for at your death.? Enjoy each day where you are Right Now!?
Get past the rantings, rumblings and threats of any other human on this planet or any other organization...plot your course, set your compass, trim your sails and believe for God's winds to take you forward!
You can and will get to where you are Free...in your thoughts and beliefs!? Inside and outside!
With prayers and blessings,
Gerri
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I like it Gerri
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I love your attitude Gerri!
;D ~W~ ;D
Chris
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Get past the rantings, rumblings and threats of any other human on this planet or any other organization...plot your course, set your compass, trim your sails and believe for God's winds to take you forward!
I wish that could fit on a bumper sticker!
Boston
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Side of a truck maybe....but the quantity & quality would still be well beyond the "sight or sound" bite capacity of most of today's publicly-schooled... :D
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Wow, Gerri, good comments. Certainly something to think about, at length.
There is nothing to stop your plans to move to Wyoming. You have only your life to live and give an account for at your death. Enjoy each day where you are Right Now!
Get past the rantings, rumblings and threats of any other human on this planet or any other organization...plot your course, set your compass, trim your sails and believe for God's winds to take you forward!
You can and will get to where you are Free...in your thoughts and beliefs! Inside and outside!
There is considerable TRUTH in those words.
Boston, I'm thinking I need to put these words on my dash, so that I see them and stay focused.
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Thank you fellow Christians, fellow patriots, fellow FSW Western neighbors/family...(including you Boston, in this group...thank you for the encouraging words and lifestyle you have lived for years as a mentor to so many of us! A great teacher and champion of others! The seeds sown will continue to grow and grow.)
The Code of the West is alive and well in Wyoming. Neighbors helping neighbors...people lifting others. People are groaning for individual freedoms worldwide and this keeps me in prayer for God's will to be done on the earth as it is in Heaven. He is the one who created the love for freedom in each heart. Only with His help can this be preserved.
Yes, I do think FSW might be different than FSP...in the love and warmth that I have seen in the Group. I do wish the FSP well in their quest. Perhaps I am just a tender Western lady at heart. The East is beautiful in many areas, but the Code of the West captured me as a little girl with my cap guns and boots.
FSW is touchable and "huggable." FSW is not just political at heart. Numbers do matter in elections, but neighbors loving neighbors matter more. When hearts are changed, politics can change. The rest of our nation and the world will be watching. A grand vision can take years to grow and mature.
I pray for freedom to stay alive anywhere that spark can be blown into a raging fire in men's hearts. Free to choose the life they feel led to live. Free to bow their knee and their entire life to Almighty God or free to turn away and serve themselves. Not everyone who loves America and freedom will move to Wyoming...we know this, but if you are hearing that call from within...follow that trumpet sound where that special freedom is calling to you.
Gerri ~W~
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from Gerri:
When hearts are changed, politics can change.
That's a truth missing in all the intellectual/activist work for freedom.
Persuading minds goes only so far, especially when hearts resist.
Logically, the free state movement is a very long odds bet.
But that does not prevent certain hearts from coming to Wyoming all the same.
All great struggles for liberty were first born from the heart.
The heart is your locomotive engine, and it pulls the rest of the cars.
Your cars cannot go where your heart does not take them.
"When hearts are changed, politics can change."
Indeed!
Thanks, Gerri.
Boston
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