Free State Wyoming Forum
Free State Wyoming (FSW) Promotional => Making the Case for Moving Toward Freedom (and Wyoming!) => Topic started by: Boston on August 29, 2007, 10:12:17 AM
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Dear fellow Wyomingites,
Some folks have wondered aloud why many FSWers prefer to daily
wear their handguns. The below essay explains very well why.
If anyone would counter with "Personal arms are not necessary in Wyoming
because violent crime here is nearly nonexistent" -- they should ask themselves:
Then why do we still need the police?
You're several more times likely, in your lifetime, to need a handgun to deal with
a lethal threat than you are to need fire insurance on your home . . . yet more
people carry fire insurance than carry a gun.
I don't understand that.
Regards,
Boston
WHY THE GUN IS CIVILIZATION
By Marco Kloos
Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.
[BTP NOTE: According to David Friedman, author of
The Machinery of Freedom, there is also a third category:
Love (includes affection, friendship, etc.)]
In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.
When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.
There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a [armed] mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.
Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter. It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.
When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation...and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.
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HERE, HERE! Plainspoken, clearly and simply put argument. Most effective. One for the archives.
Thanks for the post, Boston.
A simple thought:
If one applies the typical liberal 'victimization' argument(s) to firearms ownership and use after reading this article, one has to wonder why liberals don't ENDORSE the ownership of firearms. Wouldn't that help to EQUALIZE folks? Hmmmm?
Because most liberals do not subscribe to individual citizens owning firearms, I can only conclude that those liberals are simply interested in controlling the citizen into submission.
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We had a little bit of discussion about this, but it sort of fell off over attribution of the work -- http://www.fundamentalsoffreedom.com/fswforum//index.php?topic=4681.0
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Then why do we still need the police?
Well, we don't. ;)
It might be a bit of a stretch to say the gun is civilization, since civilizations existed before guns. But I'd say the gun is freedom. Only personal arms, and the will to use them when needed, can make people free.
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It might be a bit of a stretch to say the gun is civilization, since civilizations existed before guns. But I'd say the gun is freedom. Only personal arms, and the will to use them when needed, can make people free.
Seems to me that the gun is simply the latest, most universally available tool for this purpose. But from the time the very first weapon was created - maybe since people got the idea to throw rocks to defend themselves - some people have always worked hard to keep others disarmed and subjected. Those two have always gone hand in hand.
Remember the reason many orientals used nothing but chopsticks for centuries?
Free men and women are armed, slaves are not. A few hundred years from now the gun will probably be considered a quaint antique, and something else will have taken its place. But free men and women will still be armed and ready to take personal responsibility for their lives and property - regardless of the tool they use. That is civilization.
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Im sick of all the Euro-Trash bashing America and saying "Civilized Nations dont allow their citizens to own guns!!!"
This essay was well written, next time I cross a Frenchie insulting America because "we have to many guns", I'll have to send this essay.
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God made man. Sam Colt made him equal.
"It is reasonable and just I should have a right to destroy that which threatens me with destruction".
John Locke
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Simple and to the point. This is one of the best essays I've read recently.
Dave
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Why the Gun Is Civilization-
Neatly explains why D.C., Chicago, N.Y., and L.A. aren't civilized.
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I've just read the quote by Maj. L. Caudill (USMC). In my self-defence classes from years ago I always told my students it would be much smarter to learn to use a gun and carry it than to think they would be able to deal with all threats with the instruction I gave them in a two hour class. The main idea I passed to them was being aware of the careless things they themselfs do everyday, the dangerus habbits they've acquired over the years and their thoughtless inattention to the details. Everytime I brought up the idea of carrying a handgun they wanted to know if I carried one, and when I said I did, they asked why! They already knew I hold a Dan ranking in Aikido and have had training in Juijitsu for 4 years and trained in four other MA for the last 30 years. I explain to them that any MA training they get will help to get them fit and help to center their mind and control their body in the event of being attacked. But it sure would have helped to have read Maj. Caudill's message a long time ago. The streets of Shreveport are dangerus and to help keep it that way people here are duped into beleving that it's difficult to get a CCW permit and thay think it's unlawful to carry a gun in your car. I've talked to several people who think it's unlawful to buy an AR, AK, M1A, FAL or any other type weapon. A friend of mine was stoped by the SPD a year ago, and like an idiot he gave them permission to search his truck. They found that he had 5 Glock magazines that had "For Military or Government Use Only" on them. He was cuffed and read his rights. Lucky for all involved that the Sgt. in charge showed up and notified the other cops of the assalt weapons ban experation. The other cops had no idea there ever was one, they thought my friend stole the mags AND the Glock!!!! JohnWayne_S
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Wow JW... and here I would've thought the cops were merely malicious and trying to steal those mags because they're now collectors items. I sold one for a lot of cold cash once, and it was, to me, a 12 dollar purchase. Brand spanking new federal/cop/mil use only stamped sig mag. Man those things are hard to come by "new" :)
Collectors items.
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My interpretation of the government's attempt to regulate firearms is that the government is trying to exert more control over American citizens, plain and simple. Obama, Reid, Pelosi, Feinstein, Boxer, Schumer, Dodd, Kerry, Kennedy, et al. and their ilk do not appreciate being challenged by us lowly commoners with our “simple educations”. They feel that their wealth & Ivy League educations entitle them to make decisions for, and dictate to, the rest of us. We are nothing more than "uninformed and ignorant masses" in their eyes. With government, any government including ours, it always boils down to control. It doesn’t take a degree in astrophysics to see that and 6,000 years of human history bears this out. History is full of government (all forms of government) oppression of its subjects. Even the Greeks who are touted as the fathers of democracy and western civilization kept slaves and treated their women as property fit for nothing more than bearing the next generation. Democracy was only enjoyed by male Greek citizens who owned land. America is the first country in history to truly allow freedom for all. Our founders were fully aware of the corrupting influences of governmental power. That is why they instituted a “Bill of Rights” in an attempt to guarantee our continued liberty. They knew that without it our noble experiment was doomed to failure. Unfortunately we have allowed those rights to be severly eroded over time. The 2nd Amendment is about checking the out of control power of government (which includes the right to defend yourself), PERIOD! This is a natural human right that can't be granted by any government, king, prince, or potentate. Every living creature has the natural right of self defense, unless of course you live in England or some other such country where they have attempted to strip that right away. They have the audacity to punish those who attempt to protect themselves from muggers even with briefcases and umbrellas. Never mind guns, which are now non-existent except in the hands of criminals and the government. Is there even really a difference anymore between the two? The criminal steals your wealth by taking your belongings and the government steals your wealth by the exorbitant and excessive taxes levied against your labor and other things. Without the 2nd Amendment we are nothing more than servants of the state, obliged to follow whatever laws, rules, or regulations they dictate, even when those laws are unfair, unjust, or unconstitutional. When we are disarmed and no longer have the power to resist, as the current regime is so intent on rendering us, and they are in complete control, I can guarantee you that they will no longer even bother with the pretense of trying to show us that they care how we feel. Their true colors will finally be blatantly obvious for all to see, even those in our country who have deluded themselves for all these years from the truth as long as they had the newest electronic gadget or other material comfort. At that point we will have finally slipped back into a state of servitude and be nothing more than a modern day serf for the state. Unfortunately 500 years of slow and agonizing forward movement in the pursuit of liberty with all of its attendant sacrifices for the cause will have come to an inglorious end.
I for one will not go gently into that good night!
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I also wanted to share the following short (3 page) Cato policy report entitled "Self-Defense: An Endangered Right" by Joyce Lee Malcolm. I think it adds quite a bit to the discussion on "Why the Gun is Civilization" but from another perspective, that of what happens when our rights are infringed or removed altogether rather than the philisophical approach. It shows the way the citizens' right to self-defense in England was gradually eliminated and what the results of this policy have been. It shows how out of control government can become (to the point of absurdity) in the application of those laws. It is one of the best recent examples I have seen why we MUST fight ANY laws which attempt to regulate or restrict our right to keep and bear arms or our access to guns, ammunition, reloading supplies, etc. Here is the link:
http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/v26n2/cpr-26n2-1.pdf
I HIGHLY recommend that EVERYONE read this short report!!!
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Hallo. I've registered here to point out a misattribution. There is as far as I know no Major Caudill in the USMC, retired or not. The author of this essay is Marko Kloos, whose blog carries his post here:
http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/2007/03/23/why-the-gun-is-civilization/ (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/2007/03/23/why-the-gun-is-civilization/)
I'm sure it would be best appreciated if the actual author of this post were accredited. Where this "Caudill" person came from, I do not know.
Please be sure to credit the actual author of this piece, not a fictional character, in linking or quoting it. Thank you for your time.
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Hey MarkHB,
Welcome to the forum.
Looks like you are the Author of the article, a very well writen and thoughtful tract.
Thank you.
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Wrong Mark there.
Marco Kloos and MarkHB are two different people.
I can confirm that the rant was originally written by Marko Kloos.
Some lameassed internet "commando" lifted it, pasted a phony .mil name on it, and started emailing it around last year.
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I like this also........
my guiding principle (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/2008/03/27/my-guiding-principle/) by MarkHB
Regards, Danl ~W~
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Thank you for the welcome. I wish I could write as well as that and had my head on half as straight, but I'm not the author either - the chap who's website I've pointed you at is.
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Hello sir,
Is this movement still active? My wife and I are all in and ready to move. Please advise.
J.
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Hello everyone, i am new here and this post caught my attention. It is an Americans fundamental right to keep and bear arms. Firearms have been with our culture since the United States began. It is what has made this country great in the aspect it shows how deeply committed our citizens are to freedom. If a countries people can walk around with firearms strapped to their sides, it shows to me that the society is free. To me it is the ultimate freedom, which by the way i am unable to practice due to gun laws in my state, to be able to walk through your hometown and see people of all walks of life carrying firearms because it is their right. I hope to be able to do this one day. I carry a firearm everyday right now because i am presently serving in Afghanistan as a world policeman. I am doing alot of research here on the net about moving to Wyoming when my tour is up early next year.
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Welcome! Some others here are in the military. I'm sure they will be saying Howdy soon! Read as much as you can here and you'll soon learn what FSW is all about. And then feel free to ask us! Stay safe!
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Blaine,
Welcome to the forum. I am also military stuck overseas for the moment. You won't find a better bunch of folks than the ones here. Again welcome.
Yours in Liberty,
longrifle
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Welcome, Blaine,
Amazing, isn't it, that you are being PAID to carry 'arms' in another country, but are not 'allowed' to do so in your own home state/country?
Have you been to the open carry sites and the concealed carry sites to see just what you state does 'allow'?
Join with others in your home area to take back your fundamental RIGHT to provide for your own protection by the carrying of 'arms'.
Note: ARMS are not restricted to shotguns, hunting rifles, etc.,
Have a howitzer in your front yard? Fine! Use it wrongly, pay the price.
Have a nuclear weapon in your basement? Fine! Use it wrongly, pay the price! (Charge your neighbors admission to see it! 8) )
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Thanks for the warm welcomes. It is amazing that i am getting paid to carry weapons in a foreign country to protect myself in a police action, but am unable to do so in my own state/ country. I am in Kabul and there is not much going on here at this time. The elections are over and things have died down somewhat. There is always that risk and i wont let myself get complacent. Thank god i go home on leave in six days. Cant wait. But about firearms, i believe a town or state, where everyone has the right to carry a firearm is a great deterrent to crime. Criminals like easy targets, not a target that bites back. To answer one of the questions, yes i have checked out the carry laws in Ga. The weapon must be concealed and you have to have a permit. The permit is not hard to get, but its a way to track me. I dont want my right infringed upon by no one and not on some computer data base somewhere saying i am a weapons carrier. If i was to stay in Ga. i would obey the law and follow it. I do believe in law and order, but i am tired of the useless laws that infringe upon my constitutional rights. We need less federal and state laws that attack the basic rights afforded us by the founding fathers of this great nation. It is still the best nation in the world. There is always room for improvement though. Government is too big and the states do not have the power to govern themselves. That is why i have joined this forum and why i am looking at moving to a free state.
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Hi, Blaine, Sorry you are where you are - stay safe!
Just remember, just because someone 'passes a law', legal is not necessarily LAWFUL.
As voiced by our Founding Fathers, passing legislation that is against the Constitution is not lawful and need not be obeyed!
Come out a visit when ever you can.
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Big Ugly, i am staying as safe as possible and once again you are right. Just because a law is passed dont make it lawful. But good news i go on leave in three days and i cant wait. Will be posting while i am at home also. Thanks and i hope everyone remembers that there are alot of americans over here fighting and dieing for someone elses cause. We fight for one another and not the political agenda of our government. I hope you guys here will keep everyone fighting over here in your prayers. Thank you, from 48 IBCt Kabul Afghanistan
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Hey Blaine,
I'm Blaine too... and about to head overseas for the Navy (though certainly not as dangerous a place as you are now). Take care bud, stay safe.
~b
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Hey Blaine,
I'm Blaine too... and about to head overseas for the Navy (though certainly not as dangerous a place as you are now). Take care bud, stay safe.
~b
I thought you were about to get out of that ratrace! Be careful, and write to me. :)
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Wearing is gun states to the world you are self-responsible.
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The right to keep and bear arms marks the difference between citizen and subject. The right of the people trumping the right of the state. The "power" of government being in chains and the people being free.
It seems to me that what this whole right to bear arms debate is about. The power of the people v the power of the state.
Anyone with half a brain can see the outright failure of " gun control" to equate in any way to crime control .Chicago, D.C., New Jersey,CA. Etc.
What gun control really means is state control, turning people from citizens to subjects, a concept statists can really warm up to.
IMHO wearing a sidearm shows you are a citizen, not a subject,and that drives the left crazy. Or crazier. Either way...
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Gun control is a euphemism for people control by government pure and simple.
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Gun control is a euphemism for people control by government pure and simple.
agreed
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Thanks for this thread, Boston. Many good thoughts here.
I've been thinking about this issue in connection with the Fort Hood massacre. I doubt Major Muslim-nut-bar would have opened fire on ARMED soldiers. I expressed this opinion to a an ex-Navy SEAL and his response surprised and angered me.
He basically said that military recruits these days were a bunch of low-lifes and losers, and they couldn't be trusted with arms on their own base. My response: 'Who do you think built this country, pal?' Was it Europe's elite? No way, it was a handful of religious malcontents, ne'er-do-wells, adventurers and explorers, all armed to the teeth. The fat-cats of Europe stayed home sippin' Sherry until the rabble had built something worth stealing. The first duty of any free citizen: have the means to defend life, liberty and property.. or, be prepared to bend over and grab yer ankles.
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'Who do you think built this country, pal?' Was it Europe's elite? No way, it was a handful of religious malcontents, ne'er-do-wells, adventurers and explorers, all armed to the teeth.
I love it. 8)
Wonderful sig line material sir!
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Amen, bristlehead - that was profound.
My ancestors came from Scotland after the Culloden disaster loss to the English, who then proceeded to disarm and kill them. In rag-tag groups, they came to America and became a good part of those armed malcontents who eventually seceded from England. Believe me, their descendants should all have a special horror of being disarmed. I know I do.
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Thanks for the kind words, sir and madam.
I have no Scottish blood running in my veins as far as I know.. I'm a hodge-podge of French-Canadian, German, English, Welsh and Irish ancestors.. a mutt descended from many NW european tribes. I'll try to mute the english part of me when we communicate, mamaliberty. :) That is one of the great things about America; the warring white tribes of europe can come here, intermarry, and learn to get along.. maybe even like each other. ;D
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The English did the same to the Welsh and Irish, so we are kin in that regard. :) But I have no grudge against the English of today. They are no more to blame for what their ancestors did than we are for ours.
The important thing is to learn from the past and determine not to let it get repeated. Live and let live. Do to others what you want them to do to you. Sovereign individuality/personal responsibility, in peaceful voluntary cooperation and mutual defense. The ideal society. :) ....wherever our ancestors came from.
We need to judge each other only on the basis of actions, integrity, cooperation... nothing else.
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It removes force from the equation.
One reason why socialists the world over and throughout history have absolutely feared and despised private ownership of firearms.
Then why do we still need the police?
To enforce the judgments, orders and decrees of lawfully-convened courts of law.
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Then why do we still need the police?
To enforce the judgments, orders and decrees of lawfully-convened courts of law.
Welcome to the forum Ketzer.
How about introducing yourself to the folks here;
http://www.fundamentalsoffreedom.com/fswforum/index.php?board=8.0
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AMEN to that Quote AMEN
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http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4069761537893819675&p#
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Some folks have wondered aloud why many FSWers prefer to daily
wear their handguns.....
When I was nineteen years old- quite a few years back- the government of the United States gave me a wonderful machine, fifty-plus tons of armor and seven hundred and fifty horsepower, fitted with two machineguns with more than ten thousand rounds of ammunition between them, plus a 4-inch cannon with which I could hit a target the size of a watermelon at a half mile [10x telescopic sight and a 52-ton bipod] or one a little bigger than a car or van at over a mile and a half...and 63 rounds of ammo for that cannon. In addition, we had a couple of submachineguns as spares, and often a rifle and grenade launcher besides.
Nevertheless, it was also thought necessary that I also have a M1911A1 .45 automatic pistol, loaded, and with extra ammunition with it. That gave me no feeling of insecurity about the weapon that was simultaneously my protection, my fighting tool, mt transportation to or from a fight, and the very roof over my head. Even then I could understand that a craftsman or artist needs more than one tool in his toolbox, or there would be no need for toolboxes; we would only need but one tool to accomplish all tasks. And so I was given, and cared for, that additional two pound tool to have with me, even though I was a part of that fifty-ton device, along with three partners and friends, each of whom also carried his own pistol of the same type.
Now due to my relatively impoverished circumstances, I don't happen to have a tank immediately available for my daily personal use. And even if I did, their fuel consumption rate is somewhat high, and they're hard on the asphalt parking lot of the local shopping center, not to mention the bridges between here and there. Accordingly, I'll just carry the handgun, of the same type as that one with which both my government and I placed our reliance way back when I was a teenager, and I won't feel too bad about not having the near-immediate capability of hitting another vehicle with a seventeen-pound high explosive projectile when required. I learned, long ago, to get the job done whether it's the Big Tool, or the smaller one, or one of the intermediate ones, that's immediately at hand when it's time to tackle the work of the task at hand.
And if, just by chance, I should need that particular tool that does its job perhaps a bit less eficiently than the bigger one which was once as much a part of me as I was of it, that'll be okay: it too is a tool with which I'm very well-trained in the effective use. I can utilize it deliberately or reflexively, as required by the circumstances of the day.
Too,, so far as that goes and if it comes to that, I can call upon a few old friends and fellow crewmates, three in number, and we can just as easily and simply reassume our old roles with pretty much the same familiarity as putting on a well-worn pair of comfortable gloves. It would be sad, almost regrettable, if we should have to renew that old partnership again, but not for us; it would be a pity for those who caused the circumstances that required thev reactivation of our old roles. We were very, very good at what we did, and an Empire fell because of it; we might even manage that sort of success again. And long ago, nearly five decades ago, we gave our word, pledged our honor, that we would do just that, should our skills at arms and our mastery of our machinery be required to do our job.
So yep, the little two-pound tool that's my daily companion is indeed more than *just* a means for my personal protection, more than one tool in the toolbox for me. It's a reminder of why you really, really really, don't want to have me and those like me as your enemy. It's very much a symbol and reminder as well, and the power that stands behind it is mighty and awesome, almost beyond the comprehension of those innocents who've not seen the power and the glory and the fury all set loose at once, in living color with full stereophonic sound.
Beware. If I don't have the little one, I may be going for the bigger one.
I (insert name), having been appointed a (insert rank) in the U.S. Army under the conditions indicated in this document, do accept such appointment and do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter, so help me God.
(http://packandpostal.com/Holsters_and_Leather/IMAG004A.JPG) (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/Firing_M1A1_tank_in_Djibouti.jpg/800px-Firing_M1A1_tank_in_Djibouti.jpg)
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Archy, your post is inspiration. Thank you. Now, how soon can you get here? Thanks!
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I second rhodges.... :)
Can't drive a tank, but......
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Archy, your post is inspiration. Thank you. Now, how soon can you get here? Thanks!
I'm workin' on it. I've got a couple of things out this way to try to take care of first, and a few family chores to work out, but by end of summer, I oughta be in place. Twice I've waited too long and gotten skunked by winter weather. not again.
However, this fella thinks he oughta be Indiana's next governor, and I think there's a thing or two I can do about that: http://www.whas11.com/news/Former-speaker-Gregg-to-run-for-Indiana-governor-121887139.html (http://www.whas11.com/news/Former-speaker-Gregg-to-run-for-Indiana-governor-121887139.html)
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However, this fella thinks he oughta be Indiana's next governor, and I think there's a thing or two I can do about that:
I hope like heck you've got someone to watch your back! These weasels don't play nice.
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However, this fella thinks he oughta be Indiana's next governor, and I think there's a thing or two I can do about that:
I hope like heck you've got someone to watch your back! These weasels don't play nice.
Yeah, but if anything happers to me, ALL their accessories and partners get named. And in a couple of the stories I've worked, there's no Statute of Limitations on the crimes involved.
And remember how they kept saying the cover-uo is worse than the crime during Watergate? They hate to be reminded of that when the crime is murder.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/the-sad-hypocritical-retirement-of-evan-bayh/2011/03/10/AB4MZzY_blog.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/the-sad-hypocritical-retirement-of-evan-bayh/2011/03/10/AB4MZzY_blog.html)
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=3401 (http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=3401)
(http://www.in.gov/idoc/images/marybethgrissmore.jpg)
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Archy,
Good luck with all that! Be careful dancing with the devil. I have a story I'll tell you some time, in person only and on a very high hill in Wyoming on a very windy and cloudy day...
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No worries, Maol. One of these days, we'll sit upon the ground and tell sad tales of the deaths of Kings.
-archy-/-
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No worries, Maol. One of these days, we'll sit upon the ground and tell sad tales of the deaths of Kings.
-archy-/-
And why would those tales be sad? >:D
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No worries, Maol. One of these days, we'll sit upon the ground and tell sad tales of the deaths of Kings.
-archy-/-
And why would those tales be sad? >:D
It's a paraphrase of a quotation, ML, From Shakespeare's Richard II, Act 3, Scene 2, in which King Richard II tells Sir Stephen, The Duke of Aumerle and the Bishop- and the audience- that:
No matter where; of comfort no man speak:
Let's talk of graves, of worms, and epitaphs;
Make dust our paper and with rainy eyes
Write sorrow on the bosom of the earth,
Let's choose executors and talk of wills:
And yet not so, for what can we bequeath
Save our deposed bodies to the ground?
Our lands, our lives and all are Bolingbroke's,
And nothing can we call our own but death
And that small model of the barren earth
Which serves as paste and cover to our bones.
For God's sake, let us sit upon the ground
And tell sad stories of the death of kings;
How some have been deposed; some slain in war,
Some haunted by the ghosts they have deposed;
Some poison'd by their wives: some sleeping kill'd;
All murder'd: for within the hollow crown
That rounds the mortal temples of a king
Keeps Death his court and there the antic sits,
Scoffing his state and grinning at his pomp,
Allowing him a breath, a little scene,
To monarchize, be fear'd and kill with looks,
Infusing him with self and vain conceit,
As if this flesh which walls about our life,
Were brass impregnable, and humour'd thus
Comes at the last and with a little pin
Bores through his castle wall, and farewell king!
Cover your heads and mock not flesh and blood
With solemn reverence: throw away respect,
Tradition, form and ceremonious duty,
For you have but mistook me all this while:
I live with bread like you, feel want,
Taste grief, need friends: subjected thus,
How can you say to me, I am a king?
[i}Richard II[/i], Act 3, Scene 2: http://shakespeare.mit.edu/richardii/richardii.3.2.html
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Archy well borrowed! Let us indeed do that some time and then with what tasks needing done, having been done, travel to on to I-Breasil...
The sacred trees stand in rainbow dew,
Apple and ash and the twisted thorn,
Quicken and holly and dusky yew,
Ancient ere ever gray Time was born.
The oak spreads mighty beneath the sun
In a wonderful dazzle of moonlight green–
O would I might hasten from tasks undone,
And journey whither no grief hath been!
Were I past the mountains of opal flame,
I would seek a couch of the king-fern brown,
And when from its seed glad slumber came,
A flock of rare dreams would flutter down.
But I move without in an endless fret,
While somewhere beyond earth's brink, afar,
Forgotten of men, in a rose-rim set,
I-Breasil shines like a beckoning star.
- Mrs. Seumus MacManus
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Archy well borrowed! Let us indeed do that some time and then with what tasks needing done, having been done, travel to on to I-Breasil...
Aye. If nothing else, I am as constant as the North Star [my usual reply when someone asks me *How's it going?*]
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A 2nd amendment comment. I did not see it anywhere else.
We all know that the 2nd amendment reads in part "... The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". What many do not do is look at this and fully understand what it means. Heller affirmed that "the right of the people" means that it is an individual right and not one held by the states. This is the first time ever that this phrase was ruled to mean this (for some reason people held it was a state right for a long time, in part due to the "incorporation doctrine" invention SCOTUS did).
"keep and bear arms" is a phrase that goes back to the 1500s and changed only slightly since. Keep means to own and possess, to have. "Bear arms" means to use in defense. In the 1500s it meant defense of the realm but by the 1700s it also included personal self defense (and there are legal reviews in the early 1800s, comments by the founders in the late 1700s that back this up). Under this logic there is no 2nd amendment right to have a gun to rob a 7-11 but there is one to protect that store and its contents from being robbed. This lack of understanding almost always causes the controversy. Those who think a literal interpretation of the constitution means that anyone can have a gun and do anything they want with it generally want more laws to prevent that while others who do not see the need to use a gun just because you have a gun generally want fewer laws.
"shall not be infringed" while Heller did use a bit of the "living document" interpretation and ignore this phrase entirely when Scalia listed a long list of infringements that are allowed, this phrase has a clear meaning. No infringements to the right of self defense and state/national defense with a gun is allowed. Not registration, not permits, not banned weapon lists, not banned people lists, no infringements are allowed.
Fundamentally the 2nd amendment exists to guarantee that you are able to protect yourself. It is a right of self defense.
For people that think felons should be excluded from owning weapons are you not saying they are too dangerous to have a gun? If they are so dangerous why are they not monitored until they no longer are a danger? No one argues that while incarcerated you lose certain rights. You lose the right to keep and bear arms, it is impossible to have a prison when the prisoners are armed. You lose the right to associate with people you choose, to assemble, (ignoring that the first amendment reads "Congress shall ..." and thus does not apply to the states). You lose the 4th amendment protections and your cell and person may be searched. There are various other rights that you lose because you cannot operate a prison that way. There is nothing that states you lose them for life though, and in fact only the second amendment is a right lost for life, all others are restored once your term of incarceration is complete (there is no right to vote in the constitution just lists of reasons that may not be used to disqualify you).
Probation, parole, supervised release, halfway house, house arrest, and more are modified forms of incarceration. While incarcerated, even if it is modified, rights can be curtailed. Thus supervision not only makes a felon gun ban constitutional it protects society more than a mere gun ban because people are being monitored, they are being supervised, there are people in charge of ensuring they reintegrate into society.
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Hello you all! Just joined FSW and am enjoying the intelligent and knowledgeable bantering and serious talk on this thread. There are some real renaissance men here!
Currently, I live on 5 acres about 15 miles east of Colorado Springs with two dogs and 10 chickens. I have at least some accoutrements that give a bit of independence: solar system w/16-battery backup and transfer switch that I operate manually to be either on or off grid; septic system and well. Problem, though, is I am too close to civilization and that is why I am pondering a move. Like the Bible says, however, you don't build a house without first sitting down and working it all out on paper first (my paraphrase). When I bought this property more than 18 yrs ago it was just undeveloped land with a lot of yucca and I developed it one step at a time. It was a lot of work doing that, then planting trees, bushes (hundreds) etc.
Anyway, saying all that to say this: a lot of myself has been invested here and I don't know if I really could or should sell it and move to Wyoming or any place else. For a single woman it is daunting to think about, even knowing that having done it before I could probably do it again. It might be better to try to get trusted folks to come to my home here if the stuff hits the fan. Even though my home is too small to accommodate more than 1 or 2 others, I have a 30'x40' garage that could house temp housing.
Like you all, I am very independent-minded but only woke up to the deep, deep corruption in the fed gov't when Obama conned the foolish, progressives, minorities and those who wanted to prove they weren't racists started dismantling what was left of our freedom. The problem for those of us who want to be left alone to live our lives as we see fit is what has already been stated so succinctly in this thread: the system has its tentacles all over this country and it'll be very difficult to "...live in the world and not be of the world." Scripture and difference context for sure, but there is an application that is appropriate for what we face.
I didn't mean to write a book, but am thinking out loud because from the comments I've read, I think there is a lot of wisdom in this group and would appreciate any thoughts you all might have. Thanks and God bless. Oh yes, I do have a gun (.38 Special S&W & concealed carry permit), but am not a good shot!
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Oh yes, I do have a gun (.38 Special S&W & concealed carry permit), but am not a good shot!
Welcome! Sure hope you'll come visit us as a part of your discovery process. The "Jamboree" in June is a perfect opportunity to do that.
And get out to practice with that gun, lady. :) If this old gal can do it, anybody can. I'd love to go shooting with you too.
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Kingskid,
Welcome and stick around. You will figure it out..... Regards, Danl ~W~
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Welcome Ms Kingskid.
and yes do check out the Jamboree this June.
been a few years since my last one, but it was worth every minute of my time there.
Good Luck
Dawg
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It's a tough choice to leave a place you've invested a lot of time in, and friends you can trust. Just a guess, we are pretty late in the game for moves too. OTOH, have you seen Ferfal's (http://ferfal.blogspot.com/) comments about living in rural locations when things go bad?
IF we get a good collection of decent people up there in NW Wyoming you might see some old-fashioned Amish style barn raisings (or their equivalent) so if that happens it would take some of the risk out of a move there. But of course you would have to fit in for that to take place. Only you can judge whether that would be the case. And yes, the Jam is the perfect place to do it.
Welcome aboard... :)
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New to the site, that's a great read.