Free State Wyoming Forum
Prospective Free State Wyoming (FSW) Members and Interested Parties => Prospective Free State Wyoming (FSW) Members and Interested Parties => Topic started by: citizen_142002 on August 12, 2008, 04:32:19 PM
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Hey guys,
My name's Nick and I'm actually a New Hampshire native. I do a lot of activism here with Free Staters.
I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but I've noticed that Free State Wyoming seems to have a strong focus on survivalism or the importance of an armed citizenry/militia. Don't get me wrong, I think these things are important. I own firearms and I believe that the second amendment was intended first and foremost to protect weapons like the AK-47 and AR-15. A militia needs military arms.
However, it seems to me that force of arms is the last resort when it comes to defending liberty. I would suggest focusing more on political activism and non violent civil disobedience. I mean there's plenty of time in a week to do that and go to the range once or twice. Who knows, there may even be time to set up that HAM radio transceiver.
Not trying to pick a fight. I think it's good to be prepared, but just as important to try to avoid a future where we have to take up arms.
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We've discussed this at length, so if you want to see it just do a search.
Different people have different takes on all that. Some of us have been doing the activism and political thing for decades - or a lifetime. Some of us simply feel that the time for that has run out.
I hope you are right, but believe that you are not. We shall see.
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For these guys going to Wyoming, it's a practical thing even if they don't know it yet. Even in fairly tame Iowa, if things get out of hand, you really don't have any backup. In super super rural america, your closest backup search and rescue or relief mission might be based in Salt Lake City or Denver. Maybe a local military base in South Dakota or Cheyane might help out if they aren't coping with their own problems.
It sounds crazy, but until you've seen things go down in "God's County" in a bad way, you can't really understand the full importance of knowing how to cover your own butt.
As for the guns, a relatively "harmless and cute" raccoon can hurt you pretty bad if it's rabid. Now a black bear is roughly the same density as a coon, and an order of magnitude more trouble. They can shred your
minivan and roll a single wide trailer if motivated enough. As for human flesh, forget it, that cute 180 pound black bear will totally mangle your 280 pound 6'3" lineman type even if he has a machete and berzerker strength.
And to add to the fun, remote areas get the occasional fugitives who enjoy meth, raping, killing, and stealing. The local Po Po try not to advertise this "fun and adventure" , but a shotgun loaded with triple ott might be advised if you have an unannounced visitor at some odd hour of the night who decides to circle around the house twice before knocking on the door. ;D
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I've noticed that Free State Wyoming seems to have a strong focus on survivalism or the importance of an armed citizenry/militia. ... However, it seems to me that force of arms is the last resort when it comes to defending liberty.
The best way to not have to use force is to be prepared to use it. Same kind of idea goes for what you call "survivalism', and I call self-reliance. Once you know you can handle the worst case, everything that isn't the worst case is an improvement. You have more room to act if your back is not against the wall. Prepare for the worst, hope - and work - for the best, or at least for better than the worst.
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You guys are awesome.
just sayin...
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Welcome aboard, citizen142002.
Those of us that have lived in the country most or all of our lives know the importance of having back up for various scenarios. From food to transportation, to emergency medical and of course self defense. That's NOT survivalism in the current political sense of the word, and especially as the media would depict, but simple forethought and necessity. As Kylben suggests, a self-reliant attitude. When help is 30 minutes to hours away, you don't have a choice but to be PREPARED or you can suffer extreme inconvenience or die. Thus, the origin of an independent spirit of many of those posting here.
Folks from the city or high population density areas may not have ever had the need or circumstance for making these kinds of preparations. However, you learn quickly if you get caught unprepared dozens of miles and/or hours away from help in subzero (or over 100F) temps. If you're not able to make a simple repair to your vehicle, business equipment or buildings, you can be in a world of hurt in short order.
Look at the size of the state of Wyoming and the size of NH. If you pick a location in each state relatively far away from a population center, you'll come up with greatly different numbers.
We do what we can to avoid problems rather than court them by not being prepared. If you are at least modestly prepared, you greatly improve your odds at a problem being a mere inconvenience rather than a debilitating one or even a life threatening event.
Sure there are probably some hard core, super survivalist types that post here, but I'll wager that most poster's on the subject simply have an independent spirit, as I've roughly outlined above, and recognize the need to prepare accordingly. It's just part of life in the boonies.
Hope that helps your understanding?
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Citizen142002, all I can tell you is that if you look at the ever enlarging world population, the prevalence of new and ever more drug resistant diseases, food shortages, nearly extinct fisheries and all the other chaos emerging worldwide it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that it's only a matter of time before we have a catastrophe of unprecented scale. A mega flu pandemic, continent wide grid failure, you name it, it's only a matter of time. What on earth do you expect to accomplish with "activism"? Do you honestly expect FEMA to prevent a panic at Wall of China Mart?
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Growing up here I started shooting, hunting, camping, and fishing from a young age. Being that it is so sparcely populated and neighbors kids of my age are miles away I spent lots of time outdoors. Being snowed in and having the occasional power outage, convinced my parents to get prepared with a generator and food stocks. As a hobby my old man took up game processing and that lead to meeting more of the local ranchers and started cutting up beef and hogs for them. I don't consider that "survivalism", it's just a product of the environment that we live in.
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Survivalism? Nah, it was just called America in freer, more independent times...prior to forced urbanization via rural economic destruction & the cross-hatching of the country with interstates "for defense"...when in fact it opened the hinterlands for easy invasion/destruction of the truly American way of life and made everything "a product of interstate commerce."
If Survivalism is acting and preparing independently and cooperatively with others around you, isn't that the best AND MOST effective activism there is? The only heart and mind you need to and in fact can actually change is your own...then by acting accorrdingly, raising a family if you so choose, and freely associating with like-minded souls building outside relationships and spheres of personal influence, your activism will pay off in individually achieved freedom.
Any other "activism" is frankly pissin' in the wind...
MANUMIT
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Well put, Manumit.
So Nick, what is your definition of survivalism?
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Survivalism....... Hmmmmmmmm
I prefer the term "Self-reliance." Self-reliance defined -- Reliance on one's own capabilities, judgment, or resources; independence.
In order to be self-reliant one must be somewhat prepared for various versions of life circumstances. Many in our fora prefer the self-reliant lifestyle. I realize it is rare to find anyone who is completely self-suficient, however a group of self-reliant folks can make a community of free people who do not "agress" against their neighbors.
Regards, Danl ~W~
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Maybe he's thinking more of the city dweller with the 4x4, military surplus gear, a year worth of MREs
stashed in the closet, and a heap of gizmos advertised in American Survival Guide or some other crazy doomsday nut magazine.
Kind of your Dale Gribble type. Sometimes you can get the weekend hiker type that goes over the edge a little, or the hunter with a few dozen too many guns just for blasting the odd squirrel or deer.
I think it comes down to people in general just liking gadgets. If you can burn $200 at big lots or harbor freight in one shot without being there for a specific item, you're not a survivalist, your a pack rat. ;)
If you have separate bomb and tornado shelters, then you are probably a survivalist, a nut, and have too
much time and money to waste. :P
In my case, I lived in a mud pit on the outskirts of nowhere for too long. So I totally need my lattes to stay sane, and some place to burn money on my downtime. Sure the place is a first strike target for north koreans, is earthquake prone, and surrounded by volcanoes. But being perfectly honest with myself, I know that even though I could get by living like a wildman on the unstylish side of the cascades, it would really really suck. Sure it would be safe, hardly anyone lives there, and the leaking radioactive waste from the Hanford reservation keeps the yuppies from infesting. But I dunno.
A survivalist would live there anyway, because they enjoy pain, and probably being a crazed recluse.
Living a rural lifestyle, having all the toys, a bare minimum of neighbors, and some means of not being totally bored to death would be the best of all worlds. Assuming that pace of life works for you.
But if your kids run off to Boston for a career in investment banking when they grow up , and become a Washington DC lawyer, don't be surprised. The rural life appeals only to some people.
As for Wyoming, well it sure is out there. People live there, but if you need that mega mall or downtown big city shopping spree every other weekend, it could get ugly fast. ;D Need that urge for a pizza, thai food, or italian filled in under 30 minutes ? Maybe not so easy out there, unless you can cook real fast.
Not too many people in ninja suits living in holes in the ground there I suspect, or stashing bunkers with enough ammo and weapons to fight the next supposedly impending civil war. Ohio, Michigan, and Kentucky are probably different stories though. >:D
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So, Nick, were you just driving by leaving a provoking question to noodle on or were you really interested in a dialogue (Webster: dialogue;2. interchange and discussion of ideas , esp. when open and frank, as in seeking mutual understanding or harmony)?
Lots of folks have weighed in with a response...
Just wondering, as you initiated the conversation... Maybe you've been too busy?...
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I'm sure that some people felt I was trying to deride the idea of self reliance and preparedness, and I most certainly wasn't. Being familiar with emergency medicine, being trained in the use of arms, and having what you need to get by if the world does go to hell in a handbasket is all very sensible. I hope to see more people place a greater emphasis on these things, but my question wasn't intended to be about why you value self reliance.
My question is how ONLY preparing for an economic collapse or martial law is going to help prevent those things. I mean how does it make the world a more free place? I suppose you can make the argument that a collapse of the current system is inevitable, and that you'll be in a great position to start over once it implodes.
Personally I think there are other things that are effective in reaching out to the public and convincing them of benefits of a free society. I'll cite a few things we've been doing in NH that have been effective. I'm not trying to start an argument about who's free state project is better or anything like that, but rather make some suggestions that might help you make Wyoming a freer place.
1. Become the Media
Free Staters here have started a newspaper, the nationally syndicated Free Talk Live radio show moved to NH, and the are a number of cable access TV shows too. These have all definitely changed people's minds, and some of those people become activists themselves and reach out to even more new people.
2. Non-Violent Resistance
Civil disobedience can really illustrate to the general public that the government's only tool is force, and that a lot of the laws on the books are absurd when you get right down to it. We had an event where a free stater gave an unlicensed manacure for $1. of course it was announced to the authorities ahead of time, since the point is to get arrested. They were arrested and spent something like a day in jail. The public overwhelmingly sided against the law. Sadly the government didn't stop regulating the practice, but they cut the required number of hours that people must train to become a barber or cosmetolegist in half.
3. Political activism
If it wasn't for the efforts of free staters and NH natives working side by side, NH may never have opted out of the Real ID program. It was one of the first states to do so. Activists here also helped kill a mandatory seatbelt law, eased restrictions on home schooling, and got a marijuana decrim bill through the NH house for the first time ever.
4. Integrate
When I say that free staters did this, it should be noted that a lot of natives have gotten on board. I'm a NH native and I know that many of the people at liberty friendly events in the state are too. The enemies of liberty will try to smear you as outsiders who want to take over, but if half of the pro-liberty activists are natives it makes that smear a lot harder, and it means more people working for liberty.
We've seen real tangible results in NH with just a few hundred movers and NH has a much higher population than WY. The distance issue might make networking harder for you guys, but if you're trying to focus on certain counties, I think it makes it easier.
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1. Become the Media
These have all definitely changed people's minds, and some of those people become activists themselves and reach out to even more new people.
2. Non-Violent Resistance
Civil disobedience can really illustrate to the general public that the government's only tool is force, and that a lot of the laws on the books are absurd when you get right down to it.
3. Political activism
If it wasn't for the efforts of free staters and NH natives working side by side, NH may never have opted out of the Real ID program.
4. Integrate
When I say that free staters did this, it should be noted that a lot of natives have gotten on board. I'm a NH native and I know that many of the people at liberty friendly events in the state are too. The enemies of liberty will try to...... blah blah blah .. Blah blah...
Yeah, most of this comes down to a list of hobbies for bored rich kids who want to put their angsty video on youtube.
Living in the boonies at least has the advantage of some actual freedom simply because its too expensive
to export a full blown welfare and police state into a place where cows outnumber people 5 to 1. Actually, that would probably be Iowa or South Dakota. ;D But hopefully you can get the idea without getting stuck in hairsplitting mode.
These guys will probably manage to turn the tide enough for Wyoming to retain some of the freedoms from the old west days if the Mormon hoards don't overrun their state and force everyone to drink 3% beer while they breed like bunnies to try and achieve a majority vote that way. :P
On the other hand, NH could be overrun by jews looking to build a new retirement subdivision. Three years later it'll be the People's Republic of New Hampshire, and have more delis and coffee shops than any place on earth, except maybe Ann Arbor. :o
Either way, it's bound to be interesting to see how it turns out. At least in Wyoming they won't have marxist rich kids driving their parents Miatas and Priuses across state lines to counter-demonstrate. But their welcome to try, have to keep those hungry coyotes fed ya know. >:D
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These guys will probably manage to turn the tide enough for Wyoming to retain some of the freedoms from the old west days if the Mormon hoards don't overrun their state and force everyone to drink 3% beer while they breed like bunnies to try and achieve a majority vote that way. :P
On the other hand, NH could be overrun by jews looking to build a new retirement subdivision. Three years later it'll be the People's Republic of New Hampshire, and have more delis and coffee shops than any place on earth, except maybe Ann Arbor. :o
Did using religious and ethnic groups as examples make your points better?
I'd like to think not. Perhaps you could have said something like this...
On the other hand, NH could be overrun by statists looking to build a new retirement subdivision. Three years...
Blame lack of freedom on Jews, Blacks, Mormons, Catholics, Protestants, Russians, Italians, Irish, Mexicans or whomever you want. All that tells me is that you couldn't care less about real freedom.
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Old Jews from the east coast ? If they're pulling SS and Retirement funds they probably aren't seriously libertatian leaning, but who can say. They're not bad people, but they do tend to drive city council people insane with minor BS issues. Old irish people from Boston seem more concerned with yelling at kids to get off the lawn. ;D As for the other ones you listed, no big deal, unless you make them drink that 3% mormon beer, that's primer for a riot.
Now if you want an ugly scene, get a bunch of korean woman going up to a mall on saturday and finding out that it's closed. >:D
Ok, that should round off any un-pc coments. ;)
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Can we call a truce right here, gentlemen?
I'm pretty sure that Michigan Escapee has been deliberately baiting the rest of us for some time. It is very possible this is his version of humor - or entertainment.
Let's just not get drawn into arguments. If he really feels this way, we're not going to talk him out of it. If we don't like what he says, it's probably more productive in the long run just to ignore his posts.
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Let's just not get drawn into arguments.
I agree.
Regards, Danl ~W~
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OK, so from my perspective, and this is based on fact.
If you are NOT self-sufficient, you are probably going to be more susceptible to taking a government handout. Once you take that handout, you are under the thumb.
My father lives around a bunch of small farms, and they have taken the government subsidy for the sprinkler systems. Guess what, now the government can basically do what they wish with their lands. The exact example I am speaking of is the killing of a certain type of tree. All the farmers who had taken the sprinkler subsidy were subject to the state coming in and killing ALL the certain type of trees on their land. They had no choice. My father, who is self-sufficient and had not taken the subsidy was allowed to keep his trees. Now extrapolate this.... Get the point.
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citizen-142002,
I'm originally from Plymouth, Mass, and went to St. A's in Manchester, for 2 yrs on a hockey scholarship before transfering to BC.....I left Boston in '80 and toured the country. I fell in love with the Rockies....and the people out here. What you are not seeing about WY is the difference in simply the basic mind set of the folks out here. Use NH as an example. Once you get north of the ever expanding Mass. commuter population, life and the people slow down. I read a National Geographic article that stated, "WY, is a small town with a really long main street" Tough, independent and self-relience are cornerstones of the folks that live here. Yet, they'll give you the shirt off their backs. When I first came out here, I couldn't get use to walking down the street with my head up, smiling at strangers and nodding and saying, "Howdy".......do that in Manchester or Boston and people will either try and give you some spare change or cross the street......Getting all fired up by reading BTP's MOLON LABE and being ready to take on the PTB, mellows with the reality of being here. Native western folks, take a wait and see attitude about newcomers. They don't want "change" for change's sake. Prove yourself over a period of years and you'll be accepted. Jump into local politics here, like a Nashua liberal after a new social program and you'll be shut out. Living in the rural west and watching the national news, there is an enormous disconnect. From out here, it is almost impossible to comprehend life on either coast. The seeds for the national disaster looming ahead are not planted out here. BUT, common sense rules here. If you're not prepared to end up with your truck stuck in a ditch and face miles of alone, you're screwed.
If you sit back and watch the news and don't see what's coming, you're screwed. So if you want real small town independence, join us...but you'll have to work really hard on getting the "Rs" back in your speech!!!! ~W~lol .....carp
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Can we call a truce right here, gentlemen?
I'm pretty sure that Michigan Escapee has been deliberately baiting the rest of us for some time. It is very possible this is his version of humor - or entertainment.
Let's just not get drawn into arguments. If he really feels this way, we're not going to talk him out of it. If we don't like what he says, it's probably more productive in the long run just to ignore his posts.
No fighting Mama, I was simply asking if there was a better way to express his opinions that didn't label peoples politics based on skin tone, religious or ethnic background, or sexual preference. I also provided a constructive alternative.
Trust me, I'm far from PC, and rarely try to be. I'd just rather see the true problem, statists, be labeled as such. It's more helpful to the cause.
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Trust me, I'm far from PC, and rarely try to be. I'd just rather see the true problem, statists, be labeled as such. It's more helpful to the cause.
Of course! But his original post and response indicate that he's not interested in that. I'm not saying he's deliberately trying to start an argument, but it certainly seems possible. Why let him push our buttons?
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No button was pushed at all. Just patiently trying to help out! I'm hoping Michigan Escapee didn't realize that there was a better way and I've in some way made him stop and think. I try to see the good in all people, give them the benefit of the doubt.
And now, as this is the last thing I'm saying on the matter, back to the discussion on survivalism, ~W~ -style.
I do apologize to any and all for the thread-jack I've committed.
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from citizen_142002:
However, it seems to me that force of arms is the last resort when it comes to defending liberty. I would suggest focusing more on political activism and non violent civil disobedience.
I've no disagreement with that, but what I don't think you fully
realize is how quickly the window is shutting on the opportunity
to train sufficiently with firearms -- especially battle rifles/carbines.
Financially, it's already become prohibitive for too many newbies.
Legally, I sense disaster on the horizon from either McCain or Obama.
I.e., I think too many of you back East are way behind the gun curve.
From what I've read on the FSP Forum, you all aren't much into long guns
out there, or serious training. Your first Porcfest (or two) didn't even have
any shooting events, IIRC. By the time you need your last resort of arms,
it may be too late to buy into that "insurance policy."
Your local state-level political efforts are to be commended, but a resolute
and armed citizenry is what will sustain your gains over the long run -- simply
by being armed. It's the only thing that ever has. This is all the more relevant
when one considers the increasing federalization of the law and police forces.
Meaning, a successfull NH marijuana decrim bill will likely be overturned by the
federal courts (as happened in CA). Then, what will you all do?
The West is feisty and rural, and I think folks out here will have much less
long-run tolerance for abuses of their rights.
All that said, FSWers have involved themselves in local political affairs more
than you probably suspect. Your four NH examples are good ones which we
here can certainly learn from.
Thanks for posting here, and good luck in NH!
Boston
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As to the subject of "baiting" I was trying to make a point too rapidly, so my PC filter wasn't kicked in. It takes paragraphs of "lawyer talk" to dodge around offending someone, and by the time you make your point people are bored into a coma. Refer to Monty Python's "The life of Brian" if you need further elucidation. ;)
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My question is how ONLY preparing for an economic collapse or martial law is going to help prevent those things. I mean how does it make the world a more free place?
You can't make the world a more free place. It doesn't want to be free, nor do the people in it.
Your questions here make me think you must be young. I too thought the world needed saving when I was young. The world was not interested in what I thought.
Preparing for economic collapse certainly is not intended to help prevent economic collapse. It is intended to feed our family when the inevitable economic collapse occurs.
If you wish to spend time "working within the system" or doing other things you think will help, go ahead. I've spent plenty of time on the Wyoming Liberty Index for example. Not much has come of it, but you never know... Many of us are tired and disappointed though. Our efforts to save the world haven't worked. Our focus has turned very local. We realize there is little profit in standing in front of a slow-motion train wreck.
I'm curious why you are here asking questions like this. How will it profit you? It seems you are more at home in the NH way of doing things, so why not just concentrate on that?
A few here have wondered as you do, but they usually give up on the rest of us and go away and do their own thing.
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Hey guys,
My name's Nick and I'm actually a New Hampshire native. I do a lot of activism here with Free Staters.
I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but I've noticed that Free State Wyoming seems to have a strong focus on survivalism or the importance of an armed citizenry/militia. Don't get me wrong, I think these things are important. I own firearms and I believe that the second amendment was intended first and foremost to protect weapons like the AK-47 and AR-15. A militia needs military arms.
However, it seems to me that force of arms is the last resort when it comes to defending liberty. I would suggest focusing more on political activism and non violent civil disobedience. I mean there's plenty of time in a week to do that and go to the range once or twice. Who knows, there may even be time to set up that HAM radio transceiver.
Not trying to pick a fight. I think it's good to be prepared, but just as important to try to avoid a future where we have to take up arms.
Nick, what's with the Orwellian handle - "citizen 142002"? Let me clarify something for you. The 2nd amendment was NOT intended to protect military arms! It was intended to protect the PEOPLE. It guarantees us all the the right to defend ourselves and to remove an oppressive government! Guns do not need protection. First and foremost it was enacted to protect the RIGHT to bear arms so that in the event of a tyrannical government, the people would have the means to remove that government and start a NEW government if necessary.
I elected to opt out of the east coast states because it seemed absurd to me that those states could ever regain their freedom. The mere fact that you question our focus on survivalism assures me that I made the right decision.
While you are focused on peaceful activism and are being sent automated responses from your congressman, our government has engaged in THREE unprovoked wars - simultaneously! Every financial expert and economist agrees that we are on the verge of a total monetary collapse. We have mass murderers running the white house. When the world enters into a total barter system, how will your activism help to protect your family?
While the FSPers were puffing on their hand carved pipes, sipping lattes, and pontificating on how to better get the attention of their "elected" representative, there was a near total media blackout on Ron Paul, the supreme court endorsed crushing a child's testicles in front of parents to elicit "confessions", and most Americans embraced the idea of various torture methods for those who the government "suspects might have ties to terrorism". Of course that includes is whoever they say is a terrorist.
NH is welcome to fiddle while Rome burns, but folks in WYO seem to be cut from a different cloth. We don't DO group think here. We all just do our own thing - independently. There is no "head of the snake" here. Some of us garden, shoot, hunt, store food, run for office, or have home businesses. On the whole though, it appears that most of us constantly work towards less dependence on the failing system. Like many people, you seem to correlate preparedness with fear. You shouldn't. Being prepared means that you don't have to be afraid. Working towards self-sufficiency, preparedness, and self-defense means that no matter what happens with the economy, politics, or the climate, our lives will still be good. If you and the other FSPers wish to spend your time writing, wishing, praying, and begging for change - knock yourselves out. Keep pretending that the elections and the media aren't controlled by the same people - we won't try to stop you. But PLEASE, for the love of Mike, don't come to our forum and try to protect us from ourselves. We wish you the best in NH... enjoy your convenient malls, trains, and airports. We like WYO, and we plan to survive. Keep in mind that the whole idea of the FSP and WFS was long term survival and the preservation of freedom. If you believe that the best way to obtain that is activism, then God bless you. Just remember Baskin Robbins has 32 flavors because everyone has different tastes. Personally, I have lost my taste for politics and have accepted the idea that our time is now better spent on self preservation. "Don't tase me bro'"
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Fran-
That was flat out BEAUTIFUL!
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I agree with Fran quite a bit, Citizen 142002. The State won't voluntarily give up it's powers, and hundreds, if not thousands, have been swallowed up and changed by the system while trying to change it from within. Remember the Nietzsche quote - "He who fights against monsters should see to it that he does not become a monster in the process. And when you stare persistently into an abyss, the abyss also stares into you."
The State will only lose it's power when the people choose to ignore it. It's the legitimacy issue.
And, like Boston said, the focus on "survivalism", or rifle skills, is an insurance policy in the case of the State not taking kindly to being ignored.
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The State will only lose it's power when the people choose to ignore it. It's the legitimacy issue.
And, like Boston said, the focus on "survivalism", or rifle skills, is an insurance policy in the case of the State not taking kindly to being ignored.
That's exactly the difference between FSNH and FSW. NH is trying to change the government. WY, or at least what attracts me to WY (forgive me for speaking in terms of "we", it's mere expedience, all anti-collectivist caveats apply), is about each of us trying to change our own orientation to government in whatever form it exists. That's why the focus on arms looks so threatening to NH, and to mainstream libertarians; the lens they see these things through is an attempt to change the government, so of course it looks like preparations for violent revolution.
And to us here on this side of the new Mason-Dixon line (formerly known as the Mississippi River), the NH/LP approach is viewed as being counter to the purpose, since a focus on political activism tends to reinforce one's government-centric orientation.
Both approaches seek to convince others as well, but the purpose in doing that is different as well. The NH/LP approach relies on reaching a critical mass of people in order to achieve any of its goals. While the WY approach, essentially an agorist one, sees each additional person taking our view of things as incrementally increasing the network of friends, support, trading partners, information sources, etc, (and, only incidentally, voters) that helps to effectively live a less-government-centric orientation.
I'm glad both approaches are being pursued. Despite what we each see as the two working at cross-purposes, I believe the two approaches compliment each other. But ultimately, political activism will not solve the problem. Nor will active or passive resistance alone, or violent overthrow, solve the problem. It is ultimately a question of how people view the their relationship to government. Both activism and arms serve the purpose of helping to protect the ability to live an orientation of self-sufficiency, but without that orientation coming first, nothing can protect individual freedom.
My sig sums up my thoughts on what is required for an real solution.
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I may have given an impression of what's going on here a in a tinted way. I'm a minarchist and so I focused on the inside the system examples. Two of the media sources I mentioned Free Talk Live and the New Hampshire Free Press were started by vehement Ancaps. Well Mark from Free Talk Live is a minarchist, but Ian's message of totally rejecting the state is definitely the one that carries through.
There are plenty of people here who completely reject the authority of anyone calling themselves the government. Russel Kanning has gone to jail here many times for not recognizing state authority and so has Lauren Canario.
There really is no group think in the FSP as some try to allege. There many different camps, and some of them disagree pretty strongly on the best way to eliminate/reduce the state. The LPNH doesn't seem to have benefited much from the early movers and I think that's because a lot of them take an outside the system apolitical approach. Plus it's not hard to for state rep as a Republican or Democrat and win. You can run on basically zero budget, so you don't have to stay on the party's good side.
I'm not trying to convince anyone to move to NH. I think Wyoming is a fine place for a free state, or free state-less society. I'm just trying to say that reaching out to the public and other sympathetic groups can help you get more movers. I've found that the greatest strength in the FSP is that there is such a diversity in what people are doing here, FSW might be able to benefit from that kind of diversity of thought and action.
The discussion has been pretty civil and I appreciate that, but a couple folks have seemed really angered that I'd dare to ask a simple question. My experience is that people who are confident and feel secure about what they're doing don't come off as angry, so most of you probably feel happy with whatever strategy you've got so stick with it.
One of the great things about freedom is that different people are able to handle things differently and others get to see what course of action seems most productive to them.
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I'm just trying to say that reaching out to the public and other sympathetic groups can help you get more movers.
You really don't know what we are doing, and so have no basis for this statement as it is.
The discussion has been pretty civil and I appreciate that, but a couple folks have seemed really angered that I'd dare to ask a simple question.
If you were actually one of us, your question would be far more relevant. As it is, you are somewhat like a person who enters the home of another and immediately begins to criticize the building, the furniture and even the children. Those who live in that home could be forgiven for being less than enthusiastic about your comments in that situation, don't you think?
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I'm a minarchist and so I focused on the inside the system examples. Two of the media sources I mentioned Free Talk Live and the New Hampshire Free Press were started by vehement Ancaps.
There are plenty of people here who completely reject the authority of anyone calling themselves the government.
Being anti-state or not isn't what I was talking about, though that is part of it. By orientation, I meant more the way you approach interaction with the state, and even with the world, whether you oppose or support it. Think of it as an internal orientation vs an external one. Trying to change the world, vs trying to change yourself to better deal with the world. For instance, trying to preserve the external economic freedom to feed myself vs trying to acquire the ability to feed myself whether or not the freedom to use economic means to do so persists.
There really is no group think in the FSP as some try to allege.
I don't know if you mean me, but I'm not alleging it. I'm aware of the diversity of political persuasion in NH. I don't think there is much of a difference in orientation, though. I could be wrong.
I'm just trying to say that reaching out to the public and other sympathetic groups can help you get more movers.
I don't speak for FSW, but my impression of it, and the approach I hope is generally accepted, is not to get "more" movers, but to get quality movers. To the extent that more are sought, it is not sought primarily from "converting" the general public, but in convincing and assisting those already so inclined to choose Wyoming. Public "converts" are always a good thing, of course (assuming they really mean it), but again, here the difference is stark. The NH orientation is outward, get more people "on our side" so that there is an effective group with which to effect change. The WY approach is to carve out an effective niche of freedom and self-sufficiency so as to later attract more people to pile on - or not if that is what they choose.
Your approach sees people, including yourselves, as the means to a political end, my approach sees people, and myself, as the end to which all political activity is subservient.
I I've found that the greatest strength in the FSP is that there is such a diversity in what people are doing here, FSW might be able to benefit from that kind of diversity of thought and action.
I'd take offense at that, but I think it's not meant that way, rather is a reflection of your view of the world. You see "diversity" in various approaches to pursuing external change, and lump all other pursuits under the same category of "not doing what we're doing". I'd offer that what I've seen from FSW people, it is a far more diverse assembly. Everyone is pursuing their own means to their own ends individually, no two are doing it exactly the same way. They cooperate and share when appropriate and mutually beneficial, but none subsume their means and ends to the means and ends of the group. Yes, there's a plan, as elaborated in "Molon Labe", but that plan is both more comprehensive and detailed than the FSP plan, and more flexible in accommodating individual preferences, resources, and the transient nature of voluntary cooperation. The NH approach, while perhaps not monolithic, still collects people into groups to pursue common ends with common means in an open-ended time frame. That there are a multitude of such groups does not mean that there is more diversity overall.
The pushback you've seen here looks to me less like anger than a suspicion that causes people to avoid risking more than basic civility. Your phrasing, such as demeaning an interest in arms and self-sufficiency under the mild epithet "survivalism", even if just a reflection of a different world view - and perhaps more so, if that is what it is - is enough to make some here wonder about your good intentions.
One of the great things about freedom is that different people are able to handle things differently and others get to see what course of action seems most productive to them.
I agree with that. I believe we can and will each provide the other examples of methods, practices, and concrete results that can be educational.
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Citizen-14002,
Have you been to Wyoming lately?
I suggest going out there and breathe the air of liberty.
There is some thing about the place that can't be understood from a distance.
Take a little drive this summer(and don't forget your Battle Rifle).
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I may have given an impression of what's going on here a in a tinted way. I'm a minarchist and so I focused on the inside the system examples. Two of the media sources I mentioned Free Talk Live and the New Hampshire Free Press were started by vehement Ancaps. Well Mark from Free Talk Live is a minarchist, but Ian's message of totally rejecting the state is definitely the one that carries through.
There are plenty of people here who completely reject the authority of anyone calling themselves the government. Russel Kanning has gone to jail here many times for not recognizing state authority and so has Lauren Canario.
There really is no group think in the FSP as some try to allege. There many different camps, and some of them disagree pretty strongly on the best way to eliminate/reduce the state. The LPNH doesn't seem to have benefited much from the early movers and I think that's because a lot of them take an outside the system apolitical approach. Plus it's not hard to for state rep as a Republican or Democrat and win. You can run on basically zero budget, so you don't have to stay on the party's good side.
I'm not trying to convince anyone to move to NH. I think Wyoming is a fine place for a free state, or free state-less society. I'm just trying to say that reaching out to the public and other sympathetic groups can help you get more movers. I've found that the greatest strength in the FSP is that there is such a diversity in what people are doing here, FSW might be able to benefit from that kind of diversity of thought and action.
The discussion has been pretty civil and I appreciate that, but a couple folks have seemed really angered that I'd dare to ask a simple question. My experience is that people who are confident and feel secure about what they're doing don't come off as angry, so most of you probably feel happy with whatever strategy you've got so stick with it.
One of the great things about freedom is that different people are able to handle things differently and others get to see what course of action seems most productive to them.
Please spare us. Mark is a complete idiot and Ian isn't much better. Maybe you should open a new thread called "psychobabble and pot-stirrers" and you can all get lathered up by all the names for the subtle variations of liberty lovers that you know. Gosh, don't you get enough of that at the FSP forum? To me they are only varying degrees of enlightenment - or self-truth. At some point, you will realize that the government (all government) is designed to control by force. Those in government want power - always more power. Trying to change it is a noble (but futile) cause.
My tone is probably more uncivil than most of the FSW folks, but I am not apologizing for that. I don't care for your ideas, or your methods. I don't care for the FSP, or some of their methods. I want government to leave me alone, and I'd like you to leave me alone. As far as being angered about people asking a question... I wasn't angered. You can ask anything you like. But I will answer how ever I like - directly, bluntly, and honestly. If you don't like my answer, don't whine until I agree with you... just go someplace else where they do agree with you. Sometimes, it pays not to ask certain questions. You might try to figure the answer out for yourself. For instance, you shouldn't ask questions like: How much money do you make, where do you live, what is your SS#, how many guns do you have, how much food storage do you have, how can you believe in God, or have you ever cheated on your spouse? Most people have enough good manners and good sense not to ask such personal questions. I would put your initial question into that category. It IS a public forum, but it is really for meant for those in the FSW and those considering moving to WYO. If you notice, none of the FSW folks have asked the question or chimed in to agree with you. Regarding whether we are secure or insecure about the decisions we have made... try not to hurt yourself, Dr. Freud... A. It is none of your business and B. You sound like an imbecile trying to analyze someone based on such limited information.
I believe it is obvious to everyone that you are only a provocateur trying to bait us into ethereal discussions that “minarchist” <g> love to engage in. As I said earlier, I'm not interested in your games or suggestions. I'm not interested in your cracker jack psychology or about being politically correct. I'm really only interested in serious discussions about FSW with those who have chosen WYO or those who are considering WYO. It appears that you are happy in NH and have found a hobby with the FSP folks that agrees with you. Good for you. Thanks for the visit. Now on your way, troll.
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Citizen-14002,
Have you been to Wyoming lately?
I suggest going out there and breathe the air of liberty.
There is some thing about the place that can't be understood from a distance.
Take a little drive this summer(and don't forget your Battle Rifle).
Come on, the guy would shrivel and die without a connection to the hive. Three bars on the cell phone and he'd start to panic. ;)
Washington on the other hand, has high mountains, fresh air, Wi-fi, lattes, angsty Seattle nerds to debate with until the sun burns out, and one thing Wyoming has very little of. RAIN buckets and buckets of it. Over 93 inches one year I think. And no state income tax, which is a bonus as well. ;D
And there's geoducks, which scare the holy hell out of some people. http://www.dec.state.ak.us/EH/images/lab/geoduck.jpeg
You drop one of those on some prude out of staters plates, they'll scream like the devil was after em. >:D
Our local variety is usually black though. :o
Who can say though, I might live long enough to retire, and then I can get a cabin and small plot of land out there. Maybe a modest 300-400 acres, and play crazed recluse for a change. :)
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I guess that I'm hopelessly optimistic.
Can't everyone become enlightened?
It's well known that everone doesn't want to see the light, but that is a personal issue and is ammendable.
Q. How many psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb?
A. Only one, but it takes a long time and the light bulb has to want to change!
Citizen-142002, Have you ever been to an Appleseed?
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php
Consider becoming a Rifleman.
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Hey, on the survivalism theme, I found this series while rotting my brain with random youtube
wackyness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNNnHe3MzTU&feature=related
This guy is a riot, just goes to show what old bored vietnam vets can dream up over a winter
or two without the benefits of basic cable. And surprise surprise, its a product of stomin norman's crew(don't ask) out of Michigan.
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I may have given an impression of what's going on here a in a tinted way. I'm a minarchist and so I focused on the inside the system examples. Two of the media sources I mentioned Free Talk Live and the New Hampshire Free Press were started by vehement Ancaps. Well Mark from Free Talk Live is a minarchist, but Ian's message of totally rejecting the state is definitely the one that carries through.
There are plenty of people here who completely reject the authority of anyone calling themselves the government. Russel Kanning has gone to jail here many times for not recognizing state authority and so has Lauren Canario.
There really is no group think in the FSP as some try to allege. There many different camps, and some of them disagree pretty strongly on the best way to eliminate/reduce the state. The LPNH doesn't seem to have benefited much from the early movers and I think that's because a lot of them take an outside the system apolitical approach. Plus it's not hard to for state rep as a Republican or Democrat and win. You can run on basically zero budget, so you don't have to stay on the party's good side.
I'm not trying to convince anyone to move to NH. I think Wyoming is a fine place for a free state, or free state-less society. I'm just trying to say that reaching out to the public and other sympathetic groups can help you get more movers. I've found that the greatest strength in the FSP is that there is such a diversity in what people are doing here, FSW might be able to benefit from that kind of diversity of thought and action.
The discussion has been pretty civil and I appreciate that, but a couple folks have seemed really angered that I'd dare to ask a simple question. My experience is that people who are confident and feel secure about what they're doing don't come off as angry, so most of you probably feel happy with whatever strategy you've got so stick with it.
One of the great things about freedom is that different people are able to handle things differently and others get to see what course of action seems most productive to them.
Please spare us. Mark is a complete idiot and Ian isn't much better. Maybe you should open a new thread called "psychobabble and pot-stirrers" and you can all get lathered up by all the names for the subtle variations of liberty lovers that you know. Gosh, don't you get enough of that at the FSP forum? To me they are only varying degrees of enlightenment - or self-truth. At some point, you will realize that the government (all government) is designed to control by force. Those in government want power - always more power. Trying to change it is a noble (but futile) cause.
My tone is probably more uncivil than most of the FSW folks, but I am not apologizing for that. I don't care for your ideas, or your methods. I don't care for the FSP, or some of their methods. I want government to leave me alone, and I'd like you to leave me alone. As far as being angered about people asking a question... I wasn't angered. You can ask anything you like. But I will answer how ever I like - directly, bluntly, and honestly. If you don't like my answer, don't whine until I agree with you... just go someplace else where they do agree with you. Sometimes, it pays not to ask certain questions. You might try to figure the answer out for yourself. For instance, you shouldn't ask questions like: How much money do you make, where do you live, what is your SS#, how many guns do you have, how much food storage do you have, how can you believe in God, or have you ever cheated on your spouse? Most people have enough good manners and good sense not to ask such personal questions. I would put your initial question into that category. It IS a public forum, but it is really for meant for those in the FSW and those considering moving to WYO. If you notice, none of the FSW folks have asked the question or chimed in to agree with you. Regarding whether we are secure or insecure about the decisions we have made... try not to hurt yourself, Dr. Freud... A. It is none of your business and B. You sound like an imbecile trying to analyze someone based on such limited information.
I believe it is obvious to everyone that you are only a provocateur trying to bait us into ethereal discussions that “minarchist” <g> love to engage in. As I said earlier, I'm not interested in your games or suggestions. I'm not interested in your cracker jack psychology or about being politically correct. I'm really only interested in serious discussions about FSW with those who have chosen WYO or those who are considering WYO. It appears that you are happy in NH and have found a hobby with the FSP folks that agrees with you. Good for you. Thanks for the visit. Now on your way, troll.
Thank you Fran. Well said, esp. provocateur. I was thinking it, but held back hoping conversation would reveal something different. I was incorrect.
FWIW, Citizen14, since I (and others here as will say so themselves) am an independent thinker, expect to be responded to accordingly: frankly, and often with vigor as we are passionate about freedom and how far this Republic has slipped.
I observe that FSW is a hearty group of self-reliant folks that does not feel the need to apologize to anyone for pursuing independent endeavors in a manner consistent with principles of freedom and high standards of behavior. You are welcome to join us, but whiners and apologists will be churned underfoot as they are an unnecessary burden.
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Why the Focus on Survivalism?
The alternative to survival seems kind of depressing. If inevitable, there doesn't seem to be any good reason to embrace it immediately.
And if one must abandon life, it would be nice if it could be after a full lifetime of accomplishment, or in the pursuit of a good cause or endeavour.
I happen to think that the FSW is just dandy as an example of that kind of good cause or endeavour worthy of personal effort, and that effort may very well produce a result worthy of the most personal and expensive sort of protection.
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This is all the more relevant
when one considers the increasing federalization of the law and police forces.
Meaning, a successfull NH marijuana decrim bill will likely be overturned by the
federal courts (as happened in CA). Then, what will you all do?
Gonzales v. Reich didn't overturn California's law. It just declined to overturn the FEDERAL law.
Also, Boston, many of us NH Free Staters are learning to be riflemen (I'll add that I got my start learning about guns from Boston's Gun Bible).
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Gonzales v. Reich didn't overturn California's law. It just declined to overturn the FEDERAL law.
OK, I stand corrected, though I fail to see any effective difference.
Also, Boston, many of us NH Free Staters are learning to be riflemen (I'll add that I got my start learning about guns from Boston's Gun Bible).
Very encouraging to read, and thanks for crediting my book as your inspiration.
btw, how are you all learning? Appleseed?
Boston
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Also, Boston, many of us NH Free Staters are learning to be riflemen (I'll add that I got my start learning about guns from Boston's Gun Bible).
Very encouraging to read, and thanks for crediting my book as your inspiration.
btw, how are you all learning? Appleseed?
Boston
[/quote]
Yeah, mostly. Appleseed is how I'm learning at least, as well as person to person mentoring. I'm pretty good with a handgun, but not so much with a rifle yet.
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Just remember, Appleseed is a great program, but don't stop there!
Get all the training you can afford while the getting is good.
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Appleseed is how I'm learning at least, as well as person to person mentoring.
OK, as long as it isn't a case of the blind leading the blind . . .
If your mentor can easily qual on the Appleseed or EIC, and is
also a good instructor, then great!
Boston
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Where do you teach your courses, Boston? Do you get too far out of Wyoming?
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Wherever demand and supply coincide.
I've taught in several states, though never that far back East.
If I ever get out there, I'll let you know so we can perhaps form a class.
Boston