Free State Wyoming Forum
Prospective Free State Wyoming (FSW) Members and Interested Parties => Prospective Free State Wyoming (FSW) Members and Interested Parties => Topic started by: duncan on August 18, 2008, 11:25:15 AM
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I moved to Wyoming in 2001 from Ft. Collins, Colorado as a political refugee of this socialistic state. I'm not new to the area my father was born in Burns, WY and his father owned a seed house during the Great Depression in the same town. My grandfather also took up a homestead near Iron Mountian after he had coem of age and left his own fathers homestead which was near to Hereford, Colorado along the WY/CO border.
Is Wyoming liberty minded? Nope. The state for the most part is run by ranchers and farmers all of whom recieve one form of federal welfare or another to grow or not to grow certian types of crops or they will use federal lands to feed their cattle at a cost to all tax payers.
Cheyenne is the capitol, like or not that simply the way it is and the way it will continue to be for the remainder of our life times. The majority of Cheyenne's populace is made up of human parasites that either work for the fed or the state and these people do not like the kind of individuals that have no need for thier usless services or the kind of people that simply want to be left alone. These statist employeee especially at the county level do pretty much as they damn well please and ignore the local laws as it suits them. This attitude is the norm thru out the state.
If you live in the SW part of the state you will get screwed by the local Mormons, especially if youa re a non-Moromon. If you live in the central part of the state you will screwed by the local indian tribes, all three of them. If in Casper you will get screwed by the oil corporations or Dick Cheney. All use the state government for their own selfish ends. I suggest that you take a civics course at the local community college to see how the Wyoming Constituion has set up the different styles of city and town governments.
In most parts of Wyoming you will find that there is little work and a high cost of living in the housing market. In Cheyenne the number $7 appears to be the majic number for hourly wages but the average cost of a home is at around 100K and up. The cost of housing is far worse in places like Jackson Hole, Dubois, Big Piney and Gillette. Hell in Gillette you would be hard put to even find a home to live in as there is shortage of housing in the area due to the large number of construction workers that have come to the area to find work. You can always work for the state prison in Rawlins, they pay $9 an hour and housing is cheap and plentiful there. If you've ever been to Rawlins you will see why.
You will find that the state has its very own state run Wyoming Homeland Security which serves no usefull purpose, but to spy on people like you and me because we have deemed to be "domestic terrorists' for having an opposing view on Bush's illegal invasion of Iraq. The dregs of Wyoming LE lobbied the politicians to do this so that they could all have a nice secure tax consuming job. These clowns are calling places like Ft. Fetterman "...a possible terrorist target.".
If you think that Wyoming is freedom minded think again.
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Duncan,
Try moving to Illinois or California for another perspective........ I think question is one of degrees of freedom. I do not have time to compare our (Illinois) situation against that of Wyoming right now but someone will probably respond with some comparisons.......
No one state is free, but some are definitely more free than others.....
Regards, Danl ~W~
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Duncan, As a transplant here, I take offense at your comments. I am in Casper and manage a business here. We can't seem to get good help here. Our local competition( for jobs) Mc D is paying the high schooler 9.50hr to flip burgers. That is normal for the entire area. If you like freedom this is the place to go. live and let live is what I see to a great extent. Like Danl says try IL or Ma for a eye opening experience. my .02
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Duncan,
Thanks for your upbeat first posting on our forum!
You have a mish mash of info that is nothing but negative.
Take Gillette for instance. Yes, housing is hard to find, but it's because of the huge job market and good wages that the energy extraction companies pay. People are flocking to Gillette. And increased demand always leads to either increased prices or shortages. That's the way the market works.
Seems that almost every group has their hand out these days for taxpayer money. That's true. But that doesn't mean the people here, like the ranchers, are bad folks. It's a bad system, not bad people.
Me? I'm really happy I moved here. Wouldn't trade it for the world. I am a freedom minded person. I AM free, or at least FREEer here than where I came from. This is the best place to live as far as I'm concerned.
Mac
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Ah, a voice of reason. As a person with roots back four generations in this state as well, I do agree with very much of what duncan is saying. Many of the transplants have a tendancy to see Wyoming as MORE FREE, and then not pay attention to the fact that it isn't free. Many FSW'ers come from a place where loss of freedom ranks on a scale of one to 10 at 7, 8 or 9, and Wyoming comes in at a measly 3,4, or 5.
Where duncan misunderstands is that Wyoming is not a free state it is a place where freedom from the state is easier. (at least that is my take)
But his points are very valid and will lead in a very short time to Wyoming being like any other place where the people with thth power and the money get undue regulations instituted into law to protect their interests (money/income). I recently spoke with a senator and he outrightly admitted that trying to fight the medical community was futile becasue the politions themselves relied on the doctors for health. The more beaurocrats you have the more laws they make to protect their money/income. Very likely Wyoming is lost as a free political state. It's not like we can just stop taking money from the Fed's so we can stop obeying their coersive laws, Wyoming would be out ALOT of jobs. Keep reading Duncan and you will geta better idea of what the freedom these FSW'ers are speaking of is.
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Since I'm strongly considering the move, I'm glad to have duncan and ckumelos point out the warts. It doesn't sound like enough to stop me, since, as others have pointed out, relative freedom is all we can expect to have already waiting for us anywhere. And even compared to AZ, which is like a libertarian paradise compared to where I come from in the Chicago suburbs, it is relatively free.
But it's worth looking into. Not in an "omg stay away from Wyoming!!" kind of way, but in the sense of being prepared for exactly what shape that relative freedom will take. And, don't forget, part of what the FSW is about is changing things for the better, not merely taking it as it is. It's easier to sculpt a Michealangelo if your stone is already in vaguely human proportions than if it is shaped like a steaming pile of horses**t.
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I guess for unskilled labor the situation here is not real promising but with no income taxes and short commutes it's better than most of the rest of the US. I've been offered several positions in Gillette that would more than pay for a decent home. I had to do my time in one of Uncle Sams trade schools(the military), use my GI benefits to go to civilian trade schools, finish an apprenticship and then continue studying till I finaly reached "Master" status within my discipline but HEY, the current generation thinks they're 'sposed to have EVERYTHING NOW as soon as they finish high school or college and it's the GOVERNMENTS job to see to it! Gimme a break! Anyone with some genuine ability and a WYOMING work ethic will more than thrive here. Personaly, I'm hoping to relocate to Sheridan.
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Well Howdy Duncan, long time no arguments ! Lets see how long it takes you to get booted from this forum ! Or you can play nice this time.
Folks if you want to see what Duncan is all about go look him up at The Mental Militia forum. He hates Wyoming and I really don't know why he lives there. Do not let him suck you in ! I consider him to be a troll of the highest form ! JMHO !
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wyomiles great to have sugar coatin' stuff again!!!!!! :D
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I guess freedom is relative.
Since moving to Crook County I'm free to:
Build a house whichever way I want with no zoning.
Ditto with "land use". There isn't any here.
I needed no excavation permit.
I needed no building permit.
I needed no electrical permit.
I needed no plumbing permit.
I needed no inspections of any kind for the structure (only for the septic system, which is controlled by the state).
I live on a private road. I'm "free" to drink and drive on it (if I was foolish enough to).
I OC my gun nearly every place I go in WY & SD. No one has ever freaked out over it.
I can shoot from my deck without causing alarm from either the neighbors or law enforcement.
The sheriff deputies wave when we pass each other on the highway. I wave back.
The deputies start up pleasant conversation when they see me OCing rather than "GET ON THE GROUND!"
I'm free to look up at the Milky Way and the meteor showers without man made light pollution.
I'm able to drive around at night on the highways and almost never have to use my low beams due to oncoming traffic.
And I'm able to call or visit the local county offices, like the county clerk, treasurer, assessor, and DMV, and get polite, prompt, friendly service with a smile.
This may not fit someone else's definition of being "free", but it's about the closest thing you'll EVER find in this country in the 21st century. Wyoming may not be perfect, but it's the closest thing I've found to heaven while living on earth.
Mac
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"Well Howdy Duncan, long time no arguments ! Lets see how long it takes you to get booted from this forum !"
Why the threat?
"Or you can play nice this time."
Or rather you boot people whom you disagree with.
"Folks if you want to see what Duncan is all about go look him up at The Mental Militia forum. He hates Wyoming and I really don't know why he lives there. Do not let him suck you in ! I consider him to be a troll of the highest form ! JMHO !"
Troll for what group? What cause? What personal gain do I get from being attacked on a personal level?
I've never been in a militia so why the name calling? Hates? I'm from Wyoming how about you? I hate statism and Wyoming is a state is it not? There is a reason that they call it The Great STATE of Wyoming. Do you want to lie to these people or do you want to hear from a guy who knows the area and can tell you what to look out for? Are you just another one of those LP control freaks? When the issue isn't going the way you want it to then you name call? I thought you folks were into liberty? How is lying about me going to achieve this end? How is simply moving to another state only to drive up the property taxes going to achieve this end? Sorry to burst your bubble pal, but things in WY ain't all that you would like them to be.
All that glitters is not gold and so it goes in this state as well as the rest. No matter were you go in this country you still have to face the fed and Wyoming is not independent of the fed. The national VP is from Wyoming and supports corporate welfare. The fed holds at least one third of this states property and calls it all 'public lands' yet only the few are allowed to use this land.
Why do I live here? Well this is were I'm from, this is were my family is from and has lived for over 125 years. What good would it do me to move to another state as they are all fall under the despotism of the fed, so no matter were I lived in this country things would be no better. Being an anarchist only means that no matter where you go you in this world you will still be surrounded by the state.
I grew up in FC and saw this great town turn into a den of socialism, which now has its very own 'porch police' to prevent people from placing couches on their own porches. I moved out of the county that Fc resides in and into a smaller town north of FC along the WY/CO border and the socialist mentality followed me there, so I moved further north into another small town on the WY side of the WY/CO border and in matter of a few years I began to see the very same things happening that I had saw happening in CO. Stuff like property values going sky high, which in turn drove up property taxes. Places like Lander turn into a little Boulder, CO. Hollyweird types moving into Jackson and paying millions for property that a few years ago were worth a few hundred dollars per acre, which in turn drove out the locals and forced them move miles and miles away, just like I saw happen to Aspen and the town Boston is from in CO.
I heard about how WY was liberal in the area of CCW permits and I found out that the state IS NOT pro CCW permits at all. You are not allowed to carry concealed in your own car or motorcycle unless you have a CCW permit, CO at least allows people to carry in their cars without permits. in order to obtian one of these permits you must first see the county sheriff and pay him $80 bucks. The sheriff will process your application and then give it to the local city police Chief even if you don't live in any city. The head copster will then send off your application to thing called DCI aka The Division of Criminal Investigation or WY version of an FBI. How aobut that WY has its very own state run FBI just like most other states. If you are like me a 'gun rights' activist or just your average variety polticla activst who has been in the paper you will be denied a CCW permit. So much for the notion that the state of WY supports gun rights. I have no felonies or domestic violence charges. The WY copsters will deny anyone a permit and they don't need a reason to do so. Check out the State Supreme Courts decision on this issue which allows the copsters to do as they please irrelevant of the law. WY copsters turn down hundreds of apliccants every year and work to conceal this fact.
With this in mind and my thought is that there is no point in moving again, I must stay and fight it or live with it. I choose to stay and fight it.
Boston made the claim that the state of Wyoming respect property rights. No it doesn't, the state law says that the county assessor shall send out his/her parasites to inspect your property every four years. This state law allows these same tax consumers to come onto your property and peek into your windows. No? Yes and my neighbors have seen it done to them and me. They don't even do this sort of thing in Colorado.
You will find that the vehicle registration tax is very high in this state. I'll grant you that there is no employment tax, but then there is very little employment in this state and so it makes little or no difference that there is no state income taxes and you still have to deal with the IRS. Low property taxes? It all depends on were you live in this state. You will pay something and you will get nothing in return from the state for your money, just like all the other 49 states.
I thought one of your FSW platforms was to get liberty minded types into positions of political power and undo any of the wrongs? How long has the FSW project been in existence? Five or seven years now? I've yet to see one state politicians with the letters LP behind their name. In the last seven years things have gotten worse and not better for liberty in WY. But this aside, Boston claims to be an anarchist and he knows that I am one as well, so why would an anarchist seek power thru a statist platform. Try as hard as you might there is no way that anyone can control an entire state thru a democratic process. Democracy is simply the rule of the majority or the tyranny of the majority and the Republicans are the tyrants of the state of Wyoming. I have more respect for the Democrat governor than I do many of these professional politicians who call themselves Republicans, as most of them are in office to serve themselves and their cronies. Fruedenthal at least appears to give a crap about the common man and is more conservative than any CO Republican.
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guess freedom is relative.
"Since moving to Crook County I'm free to:
Build a house whichever way I want with no zoning.
Ditto with "land use". There isn't any here."
Really and were might the nearest contractor and or building supply house might be? Cheyenne? or One of the many cities in SD?
"I needed no excavation permit."
You will soon, you need one in my county and you didn't five years ago. its just a matter of time.
I needed no building permit.
You will soon, you need one in my county and you didn't five years ago. its just a matter of time.
I needed no electrical permit.
Actually you do. The state has its very own electrical board filled with electrical inspectors who do nothing but run around the state to inspect the work of novices like you. I spent six years as an electrician and I worked in SW Wyoming near Kemmerer and you are required to have a lisence to work as a professional electrician. Do you have a lisence sir?
I needed no plumbing permit.
You will soon, you need one in my county and you didn't five years ago. its just a matter of time.
I needed no inspections of any kind for the structure (only for the septic system, which is controlled by the state).
Oh but you do for certain things other than septic and when those statist workers find out what you have been doing I pity you.
I live on a private road. I'm "free" to drink and drive on it (if I was foolish enough to).
So when you went to get your construction materials to build your home, or to get groceries, or go to the post office was it all done on a private road? Not likely and remember you are surrounded by the state no matter were you go in this country.
I OC my gun nearly every place I go in WY & SD. No one has ever freaked out over it.
So? I can do that in CO as well. You moved to WY so that you could brandish a gun around? That's a crime in this state as well as others. You can't carry it concealed in your car can you? But then you already knew this and so it begs the question as to why you didn't tell the others on the forum?
I can shoot from my deck without causing alarm from either the neighbors or law enforcement.
No you can't. You could possibly be arrested for an little thing called "Reckless Endagerment". I know this because I did the same thing and got a visit from a local copster and I live way out in the country.
The sheriff deputies wave when we pass each other on the highway. I wave back.
Your a coplover? How freedom minded is this? Why would you feel the need to wave at people who are represenatives of tyranny? People who live off of others wealth visa via the state? For the most part I leave them alone and they leave me alone. I don't look for trouble, but I won't kiss a copsters a$$ when he is trying to thug me.
The deputies start up pleasant conversation when they see me OCing rather than "GET ON THE GROUND!"
Why the need to talk to the copsters? Are you a police informant? Are you sucking up to them in hopes that they won't get you at a later date? Nothing liberty minded about being pals with the local copsters.
I'm free to look up at the Milky Way and the meteor showers without man made light pollution.
You can do that any where.
I'm able to drive around at night on the highways and almost never have to use my low beams due to oncoming traffic.
You can do that in many other places beside WY.
And I'm able to call or visit the local county offices, like the county clerk, treasurer, assessor, and DMV, and get polite, prompt, friendly service with a smile.
Why would you want to do this? I tend to avoid these sorts of people like a I would any plague.
This may not fit someone else's definition of being "free", but it's about the closest thing you'll EVER find in this country in the 21st century. Wyoming may not be perfect, but it's the closest thing I've found to heaven while living on earth.
No it isn't. This is my point WY ain't perfect and it ain't free. Wyoming will over time regress into the same kind of socialism that can be found in CA, CO and NY. Simply moving to WY won't cure the problem.
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Sorry I didn't mean to post twice. Please delete one of the two posts for me.
"Where duncan misunderstands is that Wyoming is not a free state it is a place where freedom from the state is easier. (at least that is my take)"
This exactly what I understand, but it is only true for the time being. I would agree with those who say that Cheyenne is merely an extension of Ft. Collins, but the crap had now extended itself through out Laramie County and has eeked its way into Casper. These are the two largest cities in the state. Jackson and Lander are now a haven for leftists. If your here and you are here to stay fine, but you must fight for liberty. If you are thinking about moving here why waste your time when you can fight these statist in your own back yard.
I'm just an hour away from FC and I still fight the granola head every chance I get.
Mental Militia? I never saw you standing next to me in Denver with a handgun strapped to your hip in defiance of that Denver city ordinance.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/766963/posts
http://www.westword.com/2002-10-31/news/deeper-into-columbine/
http://www.proliberty.com/observer/20030718.htm
http://eatthestate.org/04-16/SmearingWTOProtests.htm
http://www.westword.com/2007-06-07/news/darren-morrison-s-virtual-aggression/
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Good heavens, duncan... I did look very briefly at TMM, and I wonder if you are related to planetaryjim... Similar MO... and just as verbose.
Your negativity is deafening, but I've not seen a word about what you propose to fix all the horrors you talk about. Do you have anything to offer except negative crap and poorly veiled insults?
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Do you have anything to offer except negative crap and poorly veiled insults?
Shorter duncan: I want my freedom now, now, now, now... stomps feet and balls fists. Gimme it, it's mine!
Yes, I checked him out on TMM too... almost makes me sorry I gave him the benefit of the doubt earlier. He's the kind of guy who is itching for a fight, but would rather incite somebody else to start it for him - and to do most of the fighting for him. He doesn't want to work at getting his freedom, he wants to lash out at whoever doesn't just hand it to him, perfectly formed, on a silver platter.
He'll find trouble all right, he's probably a regular magnet for it, and woe to anyone hanging around with him when he does.
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Don't say I didn't warn you ! :P
It is best to ignore duncan. He will go on and on for pages about how bad things are. Same old recording. Plus if you read his posts carefully you will see that he lives in Colorado not Wyoming. But he knows everything bad that ever happened in Wyoming. I feel very sad for him really.
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From his writings on the old freewest.org forums, the FSW-discuss Yahoo forums, and now this forum, I gather that Mr. Duncan Philps is a bitter fellow who will never find freedom.
For those especially curious types, google returns some unpleasant accusations against Duncan Philps.
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I will say that it takes some pretty good cahones to make a stand as indicated in the above posted links. I am not sure that is the best way but I will say that your heart appears to be in the right place to freedom issues. I am not so sure that your practice is the best way........ Time will tell.
Regards, Danl ~W~
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Duncan,
Your rambling and idiotic reply to my last post deserves even less than this brief reply.
Mac
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Duncan, I've looked over your posts, read the objections of others
here to you (which included even a PM). I don't think we're a very
good mix. Please do not post here any more. Good luck.
Boston
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I still support him. He is still right. The things he points out, albeit negatives, are true. Why do you all just shoot him down? What he poses is aCTUALLY THE TRUE STATE OF FREEDOM IN wYOMING. dO YOU JUST WANT TO BURY YOUR HEAD INT HE SAND AND ACT LIKE THESE THINGS DONT EXISIT?
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c, I think it's the doom and gloom attitude we can do without. FWIW the subject line of this thread is my words, when I split his reply off from the other thread. If duncan had titled his initial post in a fresh thread he likely would have used a less optimistic word than "challenges".
Problems, issues, challenges, etc --- yes that's fine we can identify them and then constructively discuss ways to deal with them, not just lament the sorry state of things and cop a "woe are us" [sic] attitude.
As Dale Carnegie said, "Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do."
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I still support him. He is still right. The things he points out, albeit negatives, are true. Why do you all just shoot him down? What he poses is aCTUALLY THE TRUE STATE OF FREEDOM IN wYOMING. dO YOU JUST WANT TO BURY YOUR HEAD INT HE SAND AND ACT LIKE THESE THINGS DONT EXISIT?
There is a big difference between recognizing challenges and problems, and in insisting that there is NOTHING but problems and that there is nothing positive or good available.
We are all bright enough to see the problems, but we don't come here to beat each other over the head with them. It would seem most of us want to discuss things, including those challenges, in a way that would help us work on them and overcome them - not insist that the sky has fallen and there is no use in living anymore because of it.
Duncan seems to have given up on liberty and the positive things in life altogether. He's welcome to do that for himself - and I feel sorry for such people- but he can't insist that we join him in it.
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I still support him. He is still right. The things he points out, albeit negatives, are true. Why do you all just shoot him down? What he poses is aCTUALLY THE TRUE STATE OF FREEDOM IN wYOMING. dO YOU JUST WANT TO BURY YOUR HEAD INT HE SAND AND ACT LIKE THESE THINGS DONT EXISIT?
As to the true state of WY, I'm not there, so I can't judge. But in my experience, there's a difference between what can happen and what does happen. What's on the books and what it done in practice - the legal climate and the cultural climate. The "true state" would consider both, even while recognizing that what can happen is still a threat even if it rarely actually does happen.
But some people look for, and find, the worst in everything they do. I'm guessing that duncan went out of his way to make sure that the right people noticed him and took an interest in the outcome of whatever issue was at hand. He made sure that what could happen, that rarely does to most people, did actually happen to him. He has a martyr complex, he gets more out of being able to say he's oppressed, in the hopes of riling up somebody else to do something about it, than he does from, for instance, actually getting a CCW. Actually trying to get a CCW - trying to live his own life the best he can - implies taking responsibility. Cowards are uncomfortable with that, and persistent open defiance, confrontation, and provocation are often a sign of moral cowardice.
There's a lot of people like that in libertarian circles, - there's whole discussion boards devoted to just that kind of approach - and I try to make as wide a path around them as I can.
To your last part, what ML said, plus the sheer volume of his provocations lowered the signal to noise ratio to below useful levels.
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Celeste , I sent you a PM.
I think Jared, Mama and Kylben said it well. Sure we all have stories that show that Wyoming has bad people in it. I have a few that would curl your toes but I prefer to focus on the future and my hope that the folks here at FSW will actually be able to make a difference. As Boston said I do not think Duncan is a good fit. I would rather be associated with folks who are more positive than Duncan.
Miles
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Seems we ought do the neighborly thing--DUNCAN--and keep our mouths shut. I live in Wyoming, therefore, I can talk about it. I do not live in CO, NM, CA, IL, etc, therefore I CANNOT talk about what happens there. Doesn't matter that at one point you lived here. Actions speak--I live here and I am working to prevent the downfall of a wonderful place.
Besides too much time on the mind numbing internet make Jack a boy who looses touch with reality.
Brandy
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All I know is that I live in Iowa, and I'm guessing there are places much worse, and WY seems like a different world, in terms of freedom, from where I am now. I am originally from rural Texas and Iowa was a big step down in liberty. Wyoming seem even better than TX. I don't know if I'll ever make it out there, but I darn sure want to. I want to breathe that free air.
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"Good heavens, duncan... I did look very briefly at TMM, and I wonder if you are related to planetaryjim... Similar MO... and just as verbose."
Nope, never heard of the guy.
"Your negativity is deafening, but I've not seen a word about what you propose to fix all the horrors you talk about. Do you have anything to offer except negative crap and poorly veiled insults?"
negative or simply beign realistic? What have you done for liberty lately?
"Do you have anything to offer except negative crap and poorly veiled insults?"
Do the factsd aobut WY bother you that much?
"Shorter duncan: I want my freedom now, now, now, now... stomps feet and balls fists. Gimme it, it's mine!"
I had freedom, we all did years ago. I saw it go down the tubes at the point so many people began pouring into CO and I see the same thing happening in Laramie County. More people means more laws and more government and more taxes. That has been the scenario of the entire front range since the 1970's. You create a quandry for yourselves by asking that more and more people move to WY to join your so-called movement. More people mean higher housing costs whihc translates into higher proerty taxes and the theft of private wealth used to feed local government will encourgage it to grow and grow along with the population.
"Yes, I checked him out on TMM too... almost makes me sorry I gave him the benefit of the doubt earlier. He's the kind of guy who is itching for a fight, but would rather incite somebody else to start it for him - and to do most of the fighting for him. He doesn't want to work at getting his freedom, he wants to lash out at whoever doesn't just hand it to him, perfectly formed, on a silver platter."
I've spent the last twenty years fighting for freedom while others sat around whining about losing it. What have you doen for liberyt lately?
"He'll find trouble all right, he's probably a regular magnet for it, and woe to anyone hanging around with him when he does."
Trouble finds me because I actually fight for gun rights rather than write cheap sci-fi novels about it.
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I've spent the last twenty years fighting for freedom while others sat around whining about losing it. What have you doen for liberyt lately?
I obviously don't know what you do, for all I know you could be the most effective champion of liberty the world has ever seen. If so, you're pretty lousy at writing about it and inspiring others, because it sounds to me like you confuse fighting over liberty with fighting for it. And you confuse fighting for it with building it.
So long as you keep thinking freedom comes from other people, you'll keep having to fight other people - you've already decided to be a slave to them. So long as you keep asking, and demanding, you'll have to keep fighting on the defensive.
Just take it. And here's a clue: guns aren't for getting your freedom, they're for keeping it.
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"Duncan, As a transplant here, I take offense at your comments. I am in Casper and manage a business here. We can't seem to get good help here. Our local competition( for jobs) Mc D is paying the high schooler 9.50hr to flip burgers. That is normal for the entire area. If you like freedom this is the place to go. live and let live is what I see to a great extent. Like Danl says try IL or Ma for a eye opening experience. my .02"
Wow 9.50 an hour. Is everyone here a high schooler? Could you live in Casper on $9.50 an hour? I've heard that the new Wal-mart in Casper is hiring mentally disabled people to man the cash registers, because the locals refuse to work for $8.50 an hour, they can't afford to work for such a low amount. I never found much of anything good about Casper. It always impressed me as nothing but an oil town with constant lay offs. Mac do is not paying $9.50 an hour in Cheyenne and there is no Mac-do in many parts of the state.
The wal-mart distribution center in Cheyenne is playing this same game of low pay and then whining about the fact that no one is interested in their operation. Wal-mart knew before they moved here that there would be a labor shortage and that people from Ft. Collins and Greeley would not be able to commute that far. So why did they do it? Why are they suddenly shipping in cheap labor from Mexico? Ummmm. If you are from Casper then why not ask the locals why they refuse to work for $9.5 an hour. Doesn't the market set the pay?
"Seems we ought do the neighborly thing--DUNCAN--and keep our mouths shut. I live in Wyoming, therefore, I can talk about it. I do not live in CO, NM, CA, IL, etc, therefore I CANNOT talk about what happens there. Doesn't matter that at one point you lived here. Actions speak--I live here and I am working to prevent the downfall of a wonderful place."
I live in Carpenter, Wyoming and own property here. I've lived in Kemmerer and have worked near Rock Springs. Not at one point, I live here now. You need to learn to read. I never told any of you to shut up. Not much freedom in this movement. Many of you act like local government officials, if you don't like what a guy has to say about something then shut him up.
I get to talk about any state or place I want to talk about wether I live there or not and I never limit myself.
"Besides too much time on the mind numbing internet make Jack a boy who looses touch with reality."
I think that many of you have lost touch with reality. I have yet to see a surge in the states population since the inception of this FSW program began over seven years ago. In fact that poputlaion hasn't gone up much at all in the last twenty years and when they finish drilling fror oil it will go back down.The reality is that it ain't happening and the big reason is ain't happening is because the majority of people cannot or will not conform to your lifestyles. Anarchy and self suffiency all look good on paper in some cheap sci-fi novel, but in practice it only works for the few. It can't work for a person who might be disabled and needs to be close to a hospital, which barely if at all exists in a place like Crook County. It won't work if you are oh say a lawyer or a doctor. Alot of time a persons profession sets the city and or town that they live. Wyoming has a very small manufacturing base and you might want to asks yourselves why this is. What is the mainstay of Crook County? Cattle and farming.
Does anyone have any remote idea as to why women were given the right to vote in Wyoming? It had nothing to do with womens rights and the sufferage movement. Wyoming wanted statehood so that they could get federal revenues and other stuff and so they need more voters on paper to appease the fed into granting them statehood and to ensure that they could get statehood they granted widows who held large tracts of property the right to vote. Land Barons were behind this caper. The good ole boys club.
Why was Tom Horn never given a fair trial and hung for a crime he never commited? The local land barons didn't want to hang for the crime of murder and so they set Horn up. The Cheyenne Cattleman's Association may no longer exist in name, but it still exist in practice in SE Wyoming. The good ole boys clubs still exist in WY just like they still exists in the ohter 49 states. I saw a biker get murdered at a bar in Cheyenne and his killers were never even arrested, thanks to the good ole boys club of Cheyenne.
Why do you think that there are three indian tribes in and around Riverton? Who and what do you think put them there? How did two tribes from SE CO end up in the middle of WY? If you are in Riverton ask one of the locals why. Wyoming is no better or worse than other places for government corruption.
What are you people afriad of? The truth? You moved here thinking that WY would be your Utopia? Who fed you people that garbage? I've found that SW SD has more freedom and liberty than does SE WY. Why not move there? Many of you stated that you all want to move to the most free place in amerika why not southern Montana?
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Duncan,
1. You're obviously angry and unhappy and apparently have been for some time. It's doubtful that the road you are on will ever make you happy.
2. It really isn't about liberty, it's about you looking for a fight for a cause and right now that cause is conveniently liberty, and now even Tom Horn on this forum.
3. Don't come here and take it out on us and BLAME us for your real and/or perceived problems.
4. We are generally friendly and enjoy a good logical conversation, but not demeaning ones that continually take personal potshots. If I have to give you examples, you've got even deeper problems.
5. Take your negativity, sadness, anger, whining, personal attacks and general ill will and DISAPPEAR. You are not helping or contributing in anything close to a positive manner.
6. Get some counseling before you implode. You'll be doing us all a favor.
Positive people get things done. Negative people don't. It is obvious which one you are and it ain't the former. BYE.
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"I obviously don't know what you do, for all I know you could be the most effective champion of liberty the world has ever seen. If so, you're pretty lousy at writing about it and inspiring others, because it sounds to me like you confuse fighting over liberty with fighting for it. And you confuse fighting for it with building it."
Once agian what have you doen for liberyt lately? Moved to another state? Quite the champion aren't you?
"So long as you keep thinking freedom comes from other people, you'll keep having to fight other people - you've already decided to be a slave to them. So long as you keep asking, and demanding, you'll have to keep fighting on the defensive."
I've never thought that liberty came from other people like you. I'm not your slave am I?. But like it or not you are a slave to the state. You never asked for and or demanded your liberty? Aren't you asking people to move to Wyoming to help you impose your Utopia on the rest of us? Your plan was to place people in postions of power and have them impose their life view on the rest of us.
What are you afriad of? Me? I'm a nobody to a great freedom fighter such as your self.
"Just take it. And here's a clue: guns aren't for getting your freedom, they're for keeping it."
Shot any statist lately? I didn't think so. But if'n yer real nice to dem local copsters de will lets you keep dem guns of yourns. Don't pay your property taxes this year and then tell me how you come out on that one. Who really owns your property? You? Come on tell me how free you really are in Wyoming.
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Duncan,
"1. You're obviously angry and unhappy and apparently have been for some time. It's doubtful that the road you are on will ever make you happy."
Aren't you angry? isn't this why you moved to WY? You hated the place you came form beucase the high taxes a government imposed regualtions made you angry?
"2. It really isn't about liberty, it's about you looking for a fight for a cause and right now that cause is conveniently liberty, and now even Tom Horn on this forum.'
It is for me, its always been aobut liberty and gettign the state off my back and out of my wallet.
"3. Don't come here and take it out on us and BLAME us for your real and/or perceived problems."
That's like me telling you that you don't have the right to move to WY and now the truth comes out. it is really all about control isn't it? Moving here to control others and how they should act in your Utopia. Were have I blamed you for the problems that you have imgained? Show me. You're diverting why? What are you afriad of? There are real problem with the state of WY just like the other 49 states. Yiu can choose to ingore them as it suits your agenda but the will continue to exist wether you like it or not.
"4. We are generally friendly and enjoy a good logical conversation, but not demeaning ones that continually take personal potshots. If I have to give you examples, you've got even deeper problems."
You don't appear to be very friendly to me. Were and when I ever attack you on a personal level? Show me. Logic is not what you are using right now.
"5. Take your negativity, sadness, anger, whining, personal attacks and general ill will and DISAPPEAR. You are not helping or contributing in anything close to a positive manner."
But when others lodge personal attacks this is acceptable to you, becuase the guy they are attacking is saying something you don't like.
"6. Get some counseling before you implode. You'll be doing us all a favor."
Take your own advice, you have a type A personality.
Positive people get things done. Negative people don't. It is obvious which one you are and it ain't the former. BYE.
Report to moderator Logged
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"Duncan, I've looked over your posts, read the objections of others
here to you (which included even a PM). I don't think we're a very
good mix. Please do not post here any more. Good luck."
Boston
Then maybe you should move back to SW CO and try not to make my home state into your perfect utopia.
So how money did Shariar get you for? Good luck getting that money back from him. Bob never did his money back from the guy.
One gets tired of self serving premondonas who in reality haven't a clue. How long has Niel's wife been working for the state at CSU? And who really pays for his health insurance?
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There are not many libertarians in Laramie county, but I came across one who owns a welding and blacksmith shop south of Cheyenne. His name is Frank Smith and he moved here from Nevada a few years back. I spoke with him just last week and he told me that he wish he had relocated to another place as he was tired of the many locals who all want something for nothing.
Frank found out that it really doesn't matter were you live people and the state are the same all over.
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"I obviously don't know what you do, for all I know you could be the most effective champion of liberty the world has ever seen. If so, you're pretty lousy at writing about it and inspiring others, because it sounds to me like you confuse fighting over liberty with fighting for it. And you confuse fighting for it with building it."
Once agian what have you doen for liberyt lately? Moved to another state? Quite the champion aren't you?
Listen, donuts, what I've done is none of your business, and I certainly wouldn't share the details with you. I'm building my life and my freedom in my way, I'm not worrying about yours - it's your responsibility. I'll worry about people I care about and who are actually doing something for themselves. You go build your own, or keep fighting people over it, whatever you want.
It appears that you're so incensed that I won't be a patsy who fights your futile battles for you that you can't type straight. Is it the red veil clouding your eyes or the gobs of spit clogging the keyboard?
I'm a nobody to a great freedom fighter such as your self.
There's two distinct logical fallacies in that short sentence. At least you've made your dishonesty explicit.
Shot any statist lately? I didn't think so.
You're a child.
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This from the RMN
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi was briefly evacuated from her downtown Denver hotel Saturday when a man carrying two hunting rifles and two pistols tried to check in to the hotel.
Secret Service spokesman Malcolm Wiley said 29-year-old Joseph Calanchini, of Pinedale, Wyo., faces a charge of unlawful carrying of a weapon after police officers at the Grand Hyatt hotel noticed him carrying a rifle-type case while checking in. Calanchini did not have a concealed weapons permit, said Lance Clem, spokesman for the Colorado Department of Public Safety.
Wiley said authorities were not releasing information about whether the weapons were loaded because the case remained under investigation. Wiley said the charge is the same whether the weapons were loaded or unloaded.
Pelosi and other guests briefly evacuated the hotel but were never in danger, Pelosi spokesman Brendan Daly said.
Calanchini remained at the Denver City Jail today on $10,000 bond, said Denver Sheriff's Deputy Danny Steckman.
Authorities were investigating a report that Calanchini was in town on business and had had the weapons worked on, including mounting of site scopes, to prepare for an upcoming hunting trip.
"The speaker was never in any danger, and she appreciates the quick and professional response of the police," Daly said.
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I don't about you girls, but this soirt of crap always makes me angry. Denver is mere 90 miles from the WY border and like it or not you will end up in the shitty city if Denver just like this poor fellow from Pinedale did.
If this doesn't make you angry or you think that it won't happen to you because you live in Wyoming then you must be on prozac like my old buddy Bob is.
Danny Glick the Sheriff of Laramie county had to attend a cop conference in Denver one time and the copsters there took his gun away from him. True story. Oh yea and I get along just fine with the local deputies.
I could tell you other stories about how to keep the state of WY from stealing your wealth vis via the car registration tax and property taxes, but why bother? You folks have all the answers. You wouldn't defend liberty in your former states so why would you do so here?
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this soirt of crap always makes me angry.
No! Really? I never would have guessed.
Everything makes you angry. That's why you're dangerous to those around you - your friends, that is, not your oppressors. That's why bad things seem to keep happening to you for "no reason". Anger accomplishes nothing, and puts you at a disadvantage. But it's all you've got, isn't it?
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"Listen, donuts, what I've done is none of your business, and I certainly wouldn't share the details with you. I'm building my life and my freedom in my way, I'm not worrying about yours - it's your responsibility. I'll worry about people I care about and who are actually doing something for themselves. You go build your own, or keep fighting people over it, whatever you want."
In other words you've done nothing but post stuff on this forum. Build what ever you want any way you want, but never tell me and others how to get the job done. You apparently are worried about me and my life just read your own tripe. What are you afraid of?
"It appears that you're so incensed that I won't be a patsy who fights your futile battles for you that you can't type straight. Is it the red veil clouding your eyes or the gobs of spit clogging the keyboard?"
So why do you continue to respond? Why did you bother to respond in the first place? Did I go onto one of your strings and attack you? Your right I can't type striaght. I have arthritis and must use two fingers to type. I tend to get ahead of myself, but hey life sucks so I just suck it up and move on.
Quote from: duncan on August 25, 2008, 10:04:43 PM
I'm a nobody to a great freedom fighter such as your self.
"There's two distinct logical fallacies in that short sentence. At least you've made your dishonesty explicit."
I'm a little nobody, but here you are flaming away at a little nobody and showing everyone that you are afriad on something. The truth maybe? That no matter were you move to things are generally the same? Did you invest alot of money in some sort of WY deal?
Quote from: duncan on August 25, 2008, 10:04:43 PM
Shot any statist lately? I didn't think so.
"You're a child."
Come on bud your the using his guns to defend liberty. You and I both now that the vast majority of LP's are whimps. Not one of them would strap on a gun and stand beside me and that wannabe LP Rick Stanley in BOR day. Most of you folks do your talking on the net and you use phoney monikers to hide your identity because you are afraid of the fed. How many times has Wolfe gone into hiding?
Don't worry you are not a threat, you are after all just an internet revolutionary. I'm not alone in my thoughts. I was talking to Zieg about you clowns and we were in total agreement, you guys hate to have your sacred cows gored. You know Zeig the guy who founded the TRT.
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First, sorry about the arthritis, really. Doesn't change anything else I've said though.
Someday maybe you'll realize that you're always going to be a pawn in somebody's game they way you keep randomly lashing out at whatever is dangled in front of your nose. But keep at it, maybe you'll survive to learn something from it.
I'll remember that about "Zeig", should I ever encounter him, whoever he is.
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"No! Really? I never would have guessed."
I've always hated fence sitters. I feel that they are just apart of the problem.
"Everything makes you angry. That's why you're dangerous to those around you - your friends, that is, not your oppressors. That's why bad things seem to keep happening to you for "no reason". Anger accomplishes nothing, and puts you at a disadvantage. But it's all you've got, isn't it?"
Everything the state does to me and others makes me angry. A guy like you would never lift a finger to help this fellow out and this is the difference between me and you internet revolutionaries. Bad things? Winning lawsuits agianst copsters is a bad thing? Kicking some freepers a$$ in the media is a bad thing? That guy got five days in jail and lost his job at CSU and it made me feel good. Bad things are not happening to me for any reason.
I have simply pointed out many of the things I have seen in WY and you can't handle it.
I've just finished up school at the Colorado School of Trades aka Gunsmithing and added yet another degree to my collection. I know that you've all heard of this place and no there ain't no gunsmithing schools in Wyoming. I'm happy as a lark and I was challenged to come here on a lark to prove that you guys hate having your oxes gored. There is nothing liberty minded about being a control freak.
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"First, sorry about the arthritis, really. Doesn't change anything else I've said though."
Why be sorry? Believe it or not I have a four year degree from CSU. The establishment at CSU hated my guts even more than you do.
"Someday maybe you'll realize that you're always going to be a pawn in somebody's game they way you keep randomly lashing out at whatever is dangled in front of your nose. But keep at it, maybe you'll survive to learn something from it."
Just like you are now. Your a citizen of the state wether you like it or not. I'm not a pawn in our little game on this forum. I came here to see if you people were open to a little critique and knowledge about how things really work in WY. The guv doesn't like you people and niether deos the WY Homeland Gestapo. Here's a direct quote from a Dr. Heller of the Wyoming Homeland Gestapo.
"The Bill of Rights does not apply in the state of Wyoming." - Heller
Heller was giving a sales pitch at the local community college in Cheyenne on the WYHG and he made this comment after I pointed out to him that he was full of sh8t. The community college in question is offering a degrees on how to be a Homeland Gestapo Agent. Laramie County Community College would be the place, feel free to google it and then read aobut their degree programs. My money is paying that fat ass to lie his ass off and that shit makes me angry.
My hope is that it will piss you off as well.
"I'll remember that about "Zeig", should I ever encounter him, whoever he is."
Boston knows who he is. Boston knew Bob Glass and if he knew Bobbi he knows of Zeig.
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I've found that SW SD has more freedom and liberty than does SE WY. Why not move there? Many of you stated that you all want to move to the most free place in amerika why not southern Montana?
I've got a better question: if WY is so bad, why don't you move to SW SD or Southern MT? ???
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Winning lawsuits agianst copsters is a bad thing? Kicking some freepers a$$ in the media is a bad thing? That guy got five days in jail and lost his job at CSU
You do realize that cockroaches just eat their dead, right?
My hope is that it will piss you off as well.
Sorry to disappoint. You really don't get it, do you? Do you really thing that if you convince me to get angry that I'll do anything differently? Do you think that I'm somehow unaware of the way things are, and need you to enlighten me? Do you realize that there is something beyond anger?
You want me angry because it serves your purpose, not mine.
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OK, I've read three pages of this and thought I would finally ask a simple question.
Duncan, what you say may or may not be true about WY, I can't comment since I don't live there. Although the few times I've visited I've really enjoyed the people, and the atmosphere.
With all the complaining aside, what exactly do you propose??
I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but all I hear from you is negativity. So far you have offered no suggestions or advice on how to solve these perceived problems. Unfortunately you have only complained about how terrible life is, and insulted a few members on the forum. Perhaps that was not your intent, but it has been perceived that way.
Here at FSW, we are looking for ways to improve the freedom movement in WY, not merely complain about it compared to the good old days. If you truly find WY that disgusting and hopeless perhaps you should heed Herk's advice. Good luck.
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Duncan, would you please get the f@#$ off our forum? Would you prefer tar and feathers. Your attitude sucks! Just leave.
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The guv doesn't like you people and niether deos the WY Homeland Gestapo.
Just a thought... if we are all so pointless, useless, incompetent and hopeless - I wonder why the governor, HS or anyone else would even know we exist, let alone not "like" us.
And, I strap on my gun every day. I never leave home without it and work endlessly to convince others to do the same. I don't look for trouble, but I would never run away from it either.
We are well aware of the problems. We have no desire to "take over" or control any lives but our own. We have no illusions about "utopia" either.
Go away, duncan. You obviously do not have anything positive to contribute here.
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Duncan, you are allegedly a proponent of freedom
(and thus private property), yet you continue to
trespass here after I politely asked you not to post any further.
Good luck with remaining on whatever forums will still have you.
Boston
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"Wyoming sucks, and if it doesn't it will in ____ years!"
OK folks, now that you've seen a full-blown troll in action,
it'll be obvious what not to feed the next time . . . especially
after I've explicitly asked it not to post.
Criticism is welcome, but let's not facilitate outright bitching.
Boston
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OK folks, now that you've seen a full-blown troll in action,
it'll be obvious what not to feed the next time . . . especially
after I've explicitly asked it not to post.
Criticism is welcome, but let's not facilitate outright bitching.
But we get so few here, we never get to play....
OK, seriously, I was trying (mostly) to be constructive, and maybe get through to him. I know it's futile, but sometimes I can't help but try. But more importantly, he's representative of a certain strain of libertarianism that is unfortunately quite common. I was hoping a discussion of that would be somewhat productive, though I guess it's best if such a discussion is not with that.
I'll put my bag of breadcrumbs away now and stop feeding him, though I assume he's banned by now anyway.
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OK Boss, duct tape instead of tar and feathers.
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:-X >:D :-X ;)
I just can't help but laugh a jokers like D, Boston.
.............
Back to our regularly scheduled program.
:) ~W~
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Ok, well, now that that's all over I feel a little torn. On one hand I like forums where someone can say whatever they really feel and it won't be censored or lead to banishment. However, it's nice that things can be regulated to actual meaningful conversation. I don't know which I like better.
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We don't need the distraction of morons like d keeping us from the inspired effort. Some people just don't understand the difference between a contrived and directed endeavor and what happens when you inspire folks to greatness. Self reliance!
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There is also the little matter of attracting what we concentrate on. If you look in the mirror each time and see only a hopeless, defeated person - doesn't it seem logical that your thinking will be bent that way and you will BECOME a hopelessly defeated person, ineffective at building anything positive in life? If you consistently tell yourself you "can't" do something (even something you say you want very much), why would you even try it?
Or - if you look at yourself and concentrate on the positive things (not denying the problems, just not dwelling on them), isn't it logical that you will gravitate toward making that positive the reality in your life?
I think this duncan dwells on the negative in all his thoughts and actions. Is it any surprise that it is the negative he mostly finds in that life?
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Or - if you look at yourself and concentrate on the positive things (not denying the problems, just not dwelling on them), isn't it logical that you will gravitate toward making that positive the reality in your life?
Yes. Prepare for the worst, expect the best. The preparation allows you to not have to focus on it.
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Well said B, ML and K.
If there's going to be a self-fulfilling prophecy, I prefer it be on positive dreams for the future. Think positive, be positive and positive outcomes will become the norm.
Onward and upward.
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I just read all this for the first time today and I think:
Duncan had more "fun" that all the rest of you put together.
Duncan probably didn't learn anything from it though, hopefully others did.
Duncan and my youngest brother are two peas in a pod, neither has really accomplished anything noteworthy but that's okay because it's somebody else's fault - it's always somebody else's fault.
Places change. If you live there during the change you may not be as aware of it as someone who used to live there, moved away for a spell and then moved back. Like my mom said about my dad one time, he spent 23 years in the Air Force so he could retire and go home. Problem was, when he got home it wasn't home anymore. It's a long story, but it's true. Everything changes, not always for the best.
At least it sounds like you folks have the opportunity to find many of the negative changes that have occurred elsewhere.
Ain't it a shame that all those folks from somewhere else move in, buy up the property (driving the property value up - but driving the quality of living free down) and then want to make their new county, city, state just like the one they left?
Duncan will never be happy, neither will his friends, unless they begin to understand how much better off they are than Duncan.
Have a good one.
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I'm happy as a lark and I was challenged to come here on a lark to prove that you guys hate having your oxes gored. There is nothing liberty minded about being a control freak.
Duncan was not here to help, he was here on a dare to see if he could get us stirred up. He has a great time doing so wherever he shows up.
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Ain't it a shame that all those folks from somewhere else move in, buy up the property (driving the property value up - but driving the quality of living free down) and then want to make their new county, city, state just like the one they left?
This seems to be a problem everywhere. It is hard to understand.
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Ain't it a shame that all those folks from somewhere else move in, buy up the property (driving the property value up - but driving the quality of living free down) and then want to make their new county, city, state just like the one they left?
This seems to be a problem everywhere. It is hard to understand.
This is typical bullshit. People moving in don't "drive prices up".
Sellers are certainly free to sell their property, homes, etc. as a lower price to prevent an increase in prices.
I'll bet you don't hear the sellers bitchin' ::)
Quit blaming the people moving in, the sellers sets the initial offering price and the price that they accept. They are free to set it lower and avoid the "driving up of prices".
Sheesh...........
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I've always found that it is necessary to have extreme points of view allowed into the mix to find a middle ground. If you do not listen to the extremists, well you end up with Democrats and Republicans being the only ones with a voice.
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Various ends of the spectrum of an argument are fine.
It's the presentation that makes the difference. Being civil and and acting with a modicum of respect are pretty minimal expectations. D did none of this. He came out of the box with hatchet bared at any and all comers. Definition of hostility and disrespect.
Taking personal potshots, arguments without obvious back-up and general ill-will towards others, and society at large, is unacceptable. Self righteous comes to mind.
So this really wasn't about exploring and discussing a wide range of opinions, it was about out and out hostility. Simply unacceptable to most and unnecessary at best.
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I guess you'd just have to live in a place with a fixed amount of private property (coal and timber company land doesn't count as "private land"and they don't sell it to private individuals) where folks that were born and live there make an average of $30,000 to $40,000 a year (when you can find a job) and you can buy a 200 acre farm for $50,000 or a house on a third of an acre for $25,000. And then the folks retiring from their $200,000 a year job on the east coast, New England, etc. sell their $500,000 (or more) house and start buying up the land for prices the locals can't begin to afford.
I don't live there anymore, and won't be going back when I retire. Home isn't home anymore. Disagree all you want. I'll just laugh all the harder because I know folks that are living in a place where it's been happening.
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Ain't it a shame that all those folks from somewhere else move in, buy up the property (driving the property value up - but driving the quality of living free down) and then want to make their new county, city, state just like the one they left?
This seems to be a problem everywhere. It is hard to understand.
I was focusing more on that part.
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from Phumpkin:
Ok, well, now that that's all over I feel a little torn. On one hand I like forums where someone can say whatever they really feel and it won't be censored or lead to banishment. However, it's nice that things can be regulated to actual meaningful conversation. I don't know which I like better.
I hear you.
It's good to get challenged occasionally on things.
He could have made the same argument and remained
here if he hadn't been such a jerk about it.
Besides, he's patently illogical. He moved to Wyoming just like
many of us have, yet we are responsible for rising prices?
Also, if Wyoming is such a statist dystopia, then why is he still here?
In my earlier days, I'd have had fun with him, but . . .
"It's like wrestling a pig: there's no winning, and the pig likes it!"
Some people one just has to avoid, as they are just gum on the shoe.
Funny, though, how canking him reinforces Duncan's own pickled paradigm.
I'm a control freak, you're all suckers for moving here, and the world's against him.
___________
Oh, btw, Mac, great post! You continue to be one of our
most prominent champions of life in Wyoming. Thanks!
Boston
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Ain't it a shame that all those folks from somewhere else move in, buy up the property (driving the property value up - but driving the quality of living free down) and then want to make their new county, city, state just like the one they left?
This seems to be a problem everywhere. It is hard to understand.
I was focusing more on that part.
Yeah, that does seem to be more of a problem with the "liberal" types though.
Me, I just wan to be LEFT ALONE! Wyoming is certainly a better place for that.
I suppose that's because I'm currently in the Peoples Republik of Kalifornia >:(
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;D The one thing about Wonderful Wyo is that there is a lane heading out for every lane leading in. Duncan raised several points that are a continuous point of contention here in Wyoming. I'll grant that Wyo is not perfect, hell it is a far cry from the state in which I grew up even though the vista has never changed. But that's alright, it keeps the population regulated. Wyoming is not perfect, it is harsh, it is brutal, and it can be unforgiving. It is however worth the price for those of us who see the true beauty buried within. Personally I do not worry about rising costs, a second Cold War, or even the outcome of the upcoming election. I live in Wyoming and my main concern right now is being prepared for an early and very cold winter, everything else is secondary. It is what it is, if this were paradise everyone would want to live here. Those of us in the know would rather they don't. Keep it free and keep it our lil' secret. Paul
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Paul, my wife used to say, "wouldn't it be great if some of these big companies would build factories at home so people wouldn't have to leave to find good jobs?"
My reply was always, "heck no, then home would be like Richmond, VA!" All these crazy, non driving people who want to tell everyone else what to do with their spare time has alwasy amazed me. When I retire we're moving about 1 to 2 hours west/southwest of here and buying a little bit of land just outside of some small town. Just enough land, far enough out, that I can ride my 3 wheeler a little, shoot my guns a little and do, or not do, whatever else I want without the neighbors complaining about it or the county cops showing up in front of my house.
Ya'll have a good one. Enjoy your views and your air and your peace and quiet. A lot of folks don't know what they are missing (and maybe that's a good thing).
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I argee with some of what you say in that Wyoming isn't really as free as many here like it sound like, but what you forget to mention is that its much better than 95% of the rest of the country.
And you're wrong about the jobs. Plenty of jobs here and they aren't all low paying.
I moved here with minimal skills and within weeks find employment in a trade that will not only teach me a lot, but pays $15.00 an hour. Much better than I could have done in my old area. And I'm getting many calls from other jobs I've applied at before I got this one. Employment wise, its probably better than 3/4 of the country if not better.
Let's see
No gun registration or permit schemes.
Lower taxes.
And lots of the little stuff that has already been mentioned by Amanfromnevada.
Even if you suspest it will change with time, remember we aren't there yet. We still have time to fight it, or worse case enjoy freedom a little longer. Kind in mind also that the other more socialist states are not going to stop stomping on freedom either, if WY does eventually go the way of CA, ILL, MA, etc; where do you think those states will be ? Much worse than they are now.
Another thing I noticed when reading through some of the states penal code is that lots of crimes that are punishable by a felony in other states are still a misdemeanor here in Wyoming. Although many of them shouldn't be illegal in the first place, it is a step in the right direction.
Wyoming isn't perfect but its a lot better than you make it sound.
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I argee with some of what you say in that Wyoming isn't really as free as many here like it sound like, but what you forget to mention is that its much better than 95% of the rest of the country. ... .
No gun registration or permit schemes.
I wonder if we're getting many folks interested in FSW from Alaska or Vermont.... Certainly I'd expect that at least some heading our way are leaving *open season on unarmed victim* zones, but we may also pick up a few leaving previous digs who simply refuse to relocate to new homes governed by regulatory bureaucracies and threarened by the inherent dangers of some of the pismire states.
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Well, hold onto your hats, folks. The county bureaucrats here have announced a public meeting to share their wonderful plans for our lives this afternoon. 2 PM at the USDA building in Newcastle.
They intend to "plan" land use, including zoning and building codes, etc.
Now, doesn't that just warm the cockles of your heart?
I'll be there... for what it's worth.
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Friday afternoon on a holiday weekend...that'll be widely attended. :-\
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Friday afternoon on a holiday weekend...that'll be widely attended. :-\
Well, now... you wouldn't really expect them to do anything to actually encourage people to come... would you? Not as if they were honestly interested in what anyone else thought, surely...
But, if anyone else in the area values their liberty a bit more than the "holiday," maybe they'll come. We'll see - if anyone else found out about it in time.
The fun part is that these meetings are "announced" in the local newspaper which comes out once a week. I often don't pick up my paper until Friday night or Saturday (go to the mail drop seldom) and would not have read about this until it was too late to go. Thanks to Linda, I know about it soon enough to attend.
Sneaky bastids...
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My, what an interesting little game that was...
Quite a few people showed up, much to the chagrin of the "board." The chairman (or whatever he is) stood up and said there had been a mistake in the newspaper announcement and that, while all board meetings are "open to the public," this was not a meeting to receive public comment or input, but to take the first steps to review and begin plans to implement the most recent land use statutes passed by the state legislature.
He went on to say that all of the state and county "laws" were very necessary so that everyone could have their freedom! (Say what?) The gist of it was that nobody could do just whatever they wanted on their property, in their cars, or with their guns, for instance, so laws were necessary to keep people safe and "free."
[Sort of like the "law" that prohibits me from carrying my gun in that building is vital to keep me safe from some cretin who might come in there and shoot people... Oh wait, the cretins don't obey those "laws" anyway, do they?]
I may not have that exactly right because it was very hard to hear over the grinding of my teeth.
You will be proud of me, however. I kept my mouth shut and left as soon as I could. Several people were a bit bug eyed at my empty holster...
The nanny state is here. The county commissioners, etc. are now firmly convinced that they must be our parents and guardians, with our "health and safety" as their sacred obligation, to ensure our "good" by ever more "laws" passed to restrict what we can do in order to ensure our freedom. Get it? We WILL be "free" to do exactly as we are told. That must be what he means.
They are no longer our employees... they are our keepers. And, lucky us, every once in a while we get to "vote" for a new keeper.
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That's the saddest story I've heard all day. :'(
Restrict our freedom to keep us free. That's fantastic.
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Mama Liberty, if your county is like the one I live in then the county commissioners are real estate agents, lawyers, builders, etc. and stand to make piles of money out of controlling when/where/who builds what where they let them. It's a real joke here. A few years ago one of the local politicians bought a farm adjacent to the route of a interstate highway that was under construction. Of course he bought it a couple of years before the route that took it by his newly purchased farm was announced to the public (hopefully no one will realize the country commissioner bought the land for a couple hundred thousand just two years ago). Once the route was announced he was able to make a million or so off his little farm due to the desire of other folks to build shopping malls, subdivisions, etc. on his land, now that the interstate passed right by it.
Someone, however, did realize and the question was raised and the answer was - what the county commissioner did was not illegal, just immoral, taking advantage of inside information and all.
My wife says those folks eventually pay for their actions, problem is its just not soon enough to suit me. ;D
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Being a wyoming native born and raised, there are a few questions that I have come up with. While not agreeing with the tone or mentality of his delivery I do believe duncan has brought up a couple good points. Why are people fleeing other states to come to wyoming rather than try to be involved and get others involved in their own states? It does seem that alot of people on these forums try to mystify wyoming a bit on how wonderful it is, and its a shining star of freedom in a world of oppression. And it seems some have specific agendas to promote wyoming as a wonderful place, trying to convice as many people as possible to move here. But at what point does it become no different than anywhere else?
It isn't hard to find places in wyoming that have no cellphone coverage, for the most part malls and large shopping centers are non existent. Most towns especially in the western part of the state are at least 50-100miles apart from the next, and in between there is absolutely nothing but open prairies. Law enforcement and government is stretched thin across the state, and all of this is largely due to wyoming being the least populated state in the union.
Don't get me wrong but especially with the oil and gas industry boom in the past decade I have a decent amount of friends from all over the country. But it seems running from somewhere else to escape government and injustices somewhere else is pretty self defeating, personally I would rather stand my ground and fight for what I believe in. I lived in North Carolina first near charlotte for school, then east carolina for work for 5years prior to moving back last year. And honestly can't say that I noticed much difference between there or here other than a few more trees, warmer winters and a few more trees.
Also people should realize too that right now the wyoming economy is in a boom, and considering the industry being oil and gas which we as a country are in short supply of we are a bit insulated from the rest of the country in the current economy situation. Wyoming went through its last boom through most of the '70s but unfortunately alot of buildings went vacant in the 80's and 90's simply because there wasn't much else to replace the oilfield jobs to keep people here. Rock Springs is still a good example of that today, in downtown there are still a few buildings left empty. Two major food chain stores closed their doors and eventually where renovated into car dealerships about a decade later after the city started to boom again. And 3-4 grade schools where shut down due to the lack of students. So yea right now things might be pretty rosy in wyoming, when they stop poking holes in the earth for resources if they haven't brought in any other long term jobs to keep roughnecks here expect a lot of other jobs to leave the state with them.
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If you find yourself ALONE, among a million or so cannibals who daily want to eat you, there isn't any point in trying to talk them out of it. They are not interested, and they have you outnumbered.
I moved to Wyoming because here I would have friends and neighbors around who are NOT cannibals and are NOT trying to eat me.
On the other hand, I don't need big cities, shopping malls or any of the rest of that stuff. I'm happy here in rural Wyoming and plan to stay.
No, it's not perfect, and yes we've got a job to do to stay free, but staying in Southern California with the cannibals was not an option for me. I tried it your way for more than 40 years and made no progress whatsoever in changing the cannibals into freedom loving people. It can't be done.
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If it is truly is as bad as you say it is then you have done nothing more than delay the inevitable. Because unfortunately there are "cannibals" already here and more showing up on a daily basis. 6 months ago the county commisoners decided to put a sign on the front entrance that said no concealed weapons of any kind where allowed in the building, these actions where not provoked by anything. About 5 miles north of the rock springs city limits, where a decent amount of people live because they can have horses, chickens, ducks and other livestock. There was some laws they tried to put on the books that would have made it illegal to have animals out there if it was anything more than a couple dogs and cats. And be able to fine people if it was decided that they had to much "junk" on their properties. All of this was done to increase the desirability of people moving to the area, and help increase property values, in large part it has failed for now but it does not seem we have seen the end of it.
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You don't seem to be listening.
I spent 40 years fighting the bureaucracy and crap in California with NO results at all. NONE, ZIP, NADA. I was basically alone, fighting a rip tide.
Here there are still people who will fight the crap, as evidenced by your own examples! Here I have friends, neighbors and new "family" with similar values and goals, and we at least are not fighting alone.
We're not expecting perfection, or utopia, Utopia is not an option. I'm just glad to live where at least some of the folks around me still understand what it means to run their own lives... and intend to go on doing so.
Seems like you need to spend more time up north in the rural areas. The cities are always going to be home to those who would rather live by plunder and coercion.
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You didn't say, but I'm guessing you've lived in Wyoming most of your life. I think that affects your view a little. I was born and raised in Texas. While there, I felt oppressed by the ever more imposing government, then 10 years ago, I moved from Texas to Iowa. Iowa is about middle of the road I'd say as states go, Texas being more conservative. I can't believe the difference. I feel imprisoned. I can't get a gun permit, the taxes are unbelievable, there is no land to roam, a zillion zoning laws. It's terrible. I can only imagine what it would be like in Southern California or New England. Living in the microcosm of Wyoming, you've seen the statists encroach on your life more and more. It is disturbing I know. Over your lifetime the change has been unbelievable. But, I assure you, it is night and day different some places out there. The difference with Wyoming is, that you've still got a chance. That's more than I can say for 3/4 or more of this country. As with anything in your life, you don't know how good you have it until you lose it.
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Yea I'm listening, but I also read a post on how a few people on these forums are fed up with the way the government and refuse to vote. Attitudes like that is what got people into the current situation they are trying to get away from. And I have spent time up north in the Pinedale/Cora area as well as Big Piney and labarge and can honestly say things aren't much better. Property tax increases are pushing out alot of people and making it harder for ranchers to own large plots of land for cattle. The hollywood type multimillonaires are pushing the millionares out of jackson hole and into these areas and they in tern pushing out those in 100k brackets. In a place that has more bars than churches, sweetwater county made it illegal about 6months ago for anyone to smoke in bars and restaurants that are open to the public. So while many of you are looking forward to the freedoms compared to where you are or where I feel the noose tightening around this great state.
And yea pumkihn I mentioned at the beginning of my first post that I am originally from wyoming. But prior to moving back a year ago I had lived in North Carolina for about 5years for school then work, and am happy to be back. Politically and government wise I can't that I noticed much difference. About the only differnce was alot more people and trees and warmer winters and hotter summers.
Alot of people who have moved to wyoming have done a decent amount of damage to the image of an out-of-stater. As long as you come here with the right attitude and willing to respect those who give you respect there will be open arms and open minds. I just hate the thoughts of people coming here to enjoy our freedoms but not willing to do anything to get into the fight and hang on to what we have. I don't believe anyone on these forums with the type of mindset that is presented in general is my enemy on the contrary would love to see more people like those on here. Rather than some of the yahoos that are nothing but rude, throw trash everywhere and don't give a damn about what goes on around them. But this place is not immune to any of the problems that others are moving away from, and if your not willing to stand up against it and prevent it from happening here. Then you will only be helping proliferate a system through this state as well. And having the mindset that at least it isn't as bad here as where i came from is a dangerous idea of complacency.
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Just a few comments...
So yea right now things might be pretty rosy in wyoming, when they stop poking holes in the earth for resources if they haven't brought in any other long term jobs to keep roughnecks here expect a lot of other jobs to leave the state with them.
Actually things are not rosy at all in Wyoming, where liberty is concerned. The boom you are talking about is the very thing that is causing the loss of freedom. Government has more money than it knows what to do with, and that can never help freedom; and people who just follow the boom might not be the best for this state (although I want to say that I have no actual evidence of this, and anyway I'd rather have people who work on wells and mines than people in the financial "industry" and other yuppie-heavy occupations).
When the boom ends and the government money dries up and the spare people go somewhere else, is when liberty here will get a much needed reprieve. The folks left over will be the tougher, self-reliant ones, which is what we want.
And 3-4 grade schools where shut down due to the lack of students.
Funny, I usually celebrate when government schools shut down.
county commisoners decided to put a sign on the front entrance that said no concealed weapons of any kind where allowed in the building...
Actually, that is in the concealed carry statute, so the commissioners weren't doing anything wrong (other than enforcing an unconstitutional law). Sounds like a good reason not to get a permit, huh? A reasonable response, seems to me, would be to open carry in that building. You have to give some push-back...
All of this was done to increase the desirability of people moving to the area, and help increase property values, in large part it has failed for now but it does not seem we have seen the end of it.
That's government for you, always focused on increasing that income stream for their boondoggles. I know it's frustrating, but at least you have a fighting chance to shut this stuff down here. Not so elsewhere. Everything is relative.
Yea I'm listening, but I also read a post on how a few people on these forums are fed up with the way the government and refuse to vote. Attitudes like that is what got people into the current situation they are trying to get away from.
If you think voting and political activism is a viable solution, then go for it. Personally, I've tried it, and found it a rigged game, with little return for a lot of effort. So many of us try other things. Like simply ignoring government, or pushing back when the bureaucrats get uppity, or flying under the radar, or writing letters to the editor exposing the corruption and power grabs. Hey, it all helps. People in government are usually more concerned with pulling in a paycheck than in pushing someone who maybe doesn't want to be pushed and who could (in the occasional example) go off the deep end if pushed too far. I think it is a bit unwise to carp about people not voting. You can't vote yourself freedom. Most times, freedom is won by ignoring the law.
In a place that has more bars than churches, sweetwater county made it illegal about 6months ago for anyone to smoke in bars and restaurants that are open to the public.
And whose fault is it that this bit of freedom is lost? The jerks passing the law, or the people for paying attention to it? Government depends on willing compliance from the peons. If they don't get it, their schemes don't work. People need to get a pair and start pushing back.
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Yes I agree that people should be more active in all aspects of the laws and actions the governments try to oppose onto us. But in my personal experience most who don't take the time to vote also don't take the time to go to any public hearings or county commisoner meetings. And rarely do much more than complain to their friends and neighbors if they do not agree with. I guess I was trying to illustrate and encourage people to have more faith in the system here. And try and make sure they take an active roll and not sit on the sidelines watching wyoming end up like so many other places. I can almost guarantee those who are trying to take away personal liberties are showing up to vote, and I try to take an active roll encouraging others to do the same. No one has ever voted themselves freedom, but a lot of people sure have voted it away.
I have to say I agree with pretty much everything you had to say in response to my post paul, especially the part about those who follow the boom aren't the best for the state. For the most part they don't care anything about wyoming, amount of trash everywhere has increased ten fold, instances of poached wildlife are becoming alot more common. And all the county commisioners are worried about is trying to clean and dress the place up trying to make it look more appealing to the more liberal leaning city folk.
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Don't worry guys. It'll all be moot probably real soon.
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Don't worry guys. It'll all be moot probably real soon.
This almost made me laugh. But unfortunately what will happen is inevitable. Too many people asleep behind the television.
Brandy
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Don't worry guys. It'll all be moot probably real soon.
And thats part of the reason I moved back to wyo in the first place ;)
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I am not going to argue that Wyoming has a lot of benefits, but the simple fact of the matter is that moving to Wyoming isn't going to address the key issues threatening this nation. Of course, I know that isn't the objective of the program, but...
We're still going to have contend with the fact that a few big corporations are coming to dominate the entire nation's food supply with the support of the federal government. We have to contend with a federal government dominated by an oligarchy of two parties. We have to contend with increasing domestic surveillance in the name of terrorism, but lack of border security that would prevent actual terrorists from transporting themselves and even weapons of mass destruction into the country. We have to contend with diminishing resources, including petroleum, water, and other things due to our exploding population and quality of life. We still have to contend with generation after generation of retard Americans whose only manner of choosing a candidate to vote for is whether or not they'd like to have a beer with the guy or who want to have voted for the first black president.
Moving to Wyoming isn't going to change any of that, but you guys do have an opportunity. You've got to elect one of your own to positions into the state legislature and other positions. Get Wyoming to resist government encroachments on states' rights. Get your people elected as US Congressman and US Senator. Get the right people into the Federal Government and change things.
Moving to Wyoming is a step up, in freedom, but it can only last so long. I hope that you guys are doing what you can to address these issues and change the political scene and not just riding the last wave of freedom that might ever cross this once great nation.
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John, have you read Boston's book "Molon Labe"? If not, please do, as it essentially is a plan that will move Wyoming in a direction that resolves many if not all of these issues.
It's available on Amazon.
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Well, that may be a bit of a stretch to say Molon Labe is our plan. :)
All those who move here, even with the help of this group, have their own plans.
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I didn't say it was anyone's plan. I said it was "a plan". I know what it is - it's a work of fiction. I'm just saying that if John reads it, it might put his concerns to rest.
To be explicit, an independent-minded state government willing to take calculated risks, with a similar kind of population to back it up, can effectively take on (many or possibly all of) the problems John brings up. Or at least it would get itself and the federal government out of the way and allow people to find their own solutions.
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I guess freedom is relative.
Since moving to Crook County I'm free to:
Build a house whichever way I want with no zoning.
Ditto with "land use". There isn't any here.
I needed no excavation permit.
I needed no building permit.
I needed no electrical permit.
I needed no plumbing permit.
I needed no inspections of any kind for the structure (only for the septic system, which is controlled by the state).
I live on a private road. I'm "free" to drink and drive on it (if I was foolish enough to).
I OC my gun nearly every place I go in WY & SD. No one has ever freaked out over it.
I can shoot from my deck without causing alarm from either the neighbors or law enforcement.
The sheriff deputies wave when we pass each other on the highway. I wave back.
The deputies start up pleasant conversation when they see me OCing rather than "GET ON THE GROUND!"
I'm free to look up at the Milky Way and the meteor showers without man made light pollution.
I'm able to drive around at night on the highways and almost never have to use my low beams due to oncoming traffic.
And I'm able to call or visit the local county offices, like the county clerk, treasurer, assessor, and DMV, and get polite, prompt, friendly service with a smile.
This may not fit someone else's definition of being "free", but it's about the closest thing you'll EVER find in this country in the 21st century. Wyoming may not be perfect, but it's the closest thing I've found to heaven while living on earth.
Mac
Sounds sweet.
--I can only open carry in my home (so I do. In a holster.)
--To get a CCW in my county, you have to be a judge or a movie star.
--We own our house, but had to ask the home owner's association permission to put a motion-sensor light outside over our bedroom window after I caught a guy trying to pry it open while we were home. And that permission took nine months, many letters, and finally tacitly threatening to sue.
MWD
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So, Thorndaddy, how soon can you get here? <G> Not going to get any better there. :)
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So, Thorndaddy, how soon can you get here? <G> Not going to get any better there. :)
Yeah, I was just reading other posts, and saw you came from here. I also liked the article that mentioned your Cali license plates full of shotgun holes. My Remington 870 twitched with delight at that thought.
I don't know....Debra Jean gets up for her cubicle slavery job in about 15 minutes, I'll chat her up on it as she gets ready for work. Seriously though, we may play this as a virtual game for a while first. We like the health benefits from her cube farm. Me, I'm a writer, can make my living from mailbox money. It would be enough to support us somewhere cheap to live. But we're such hot-weather kitties. Heck...I dunno, I'll talk with her.
We're so in love that if I said, "Honey, we're moving to Montana, just like that Zappa song, next month", she'd start packing. But I think we should save up a bit first to buy a nice stretch of land there.
I own an acre of land in Kenna, New Mexico. I more or less won it in a card game. I've never seen it, but I know it exists, because every year I pay the seven dollars and fifty cents property tax. I once called the county clerk there, she was real friendly. I said "What permits do I need to build there?" She laughed. "Permits? You don't need permits. You can do whatever you like out there! If the neighbors don't like it, they'll just shoot you!" She also said, "You'll have to scrape the land to get rid of the rattlesnakes before you build."
But hell, we've got rattlesnakes here too, saw one in the driveway last year. And coyotes in back of the house. Just like Wyoming, except too many laws here, the neighbors are 30 feet away, and our "ranch" consists of four rooms and 1100 square feet. But when the doors are shut and the alarms are armed, it is out little "nation of two" (with three cats as our "subjects") But yeah, our nation (which we call "Nestlandia") could exist anywhere. So I'll keep Wyoming close in mind.
Debra Jean and I have thought so much about West Virginia being the "promised land" for us that I've got a WV flag hanging on the wall right in front of me. (It's a good image - has two guns on it, and says "Mountain men are always free" in Latin.) But maybe I need to get a Wyoming flag and meditate on that for a while.
Michael
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p/s was speaking figuratively with "moving to Montana." I know it's not Wyoming.
Sleepy....meh.
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TD,
Having once had the chance to move to beautiful Southern Cali, I am darn glad we didn't make that choice. I simply can't imagine living there.
Nearly anyplace else probably sounds like 'heaven'. Fortunately I live in a Midwest state that allows OC and CC. Ok, I need a permission slip from the local gendarmes, but it's a 'shall issue' state so if you can legally own a firearm, it's a cinch.
And there are the beginnings of the differences between here and MT/WY/ID. OC in those states has not been degraded to require 'permission' to be legal. As well, building codes and permits are considerably less onerous, as are property taxes. Besides the beauty of the mountains and geology, that's the draw for us.
If you're young, move sooner than later. Once roots and job seniority set in, it's much more difficult to leave, especially with the economy on the fritz. Even if you can't get that 'Sweet Forty', depending on what your skillset is, planting yourself sooner than later and working towards your goal in WY may be worth considering.
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TD,
Having once had the chance to move to beautiful Southern Cali, I am darn glad we didn't make that choice. I simply can't imagine living there.
Nearly anyplace else probably sounds like 'heaven'. Fortunately I live in a Midwest state that allows OC and CC. Ok, I need a permission slip from the local gendarmes, but it's a 'shall issue' state so if you can legally own a firearm, it's a cinch.
And there are the beginnings of the differences between here and MT/WY/ID. OC in those states has not been degraded to require 'permission' to be legal. As well, building codes and permits are considerably less onerous, as are property taxes. Besides the beauty of the mountains and geology, that's the draw for us.
If you're young, move sooner than later. Once roots and job seniority set in, it's much more difficult to leave, especially with the economy on the fritz. Even if you can't get that 'Sweet Forty', depending on what your skillset is, planting yourself sooner than later and working towards your goal in WY may be worth considering.
OC has always seemed like a scary option to me. I think may have been Ayoub who said something like "I prefer concealed. If a bad guy starts shooting, he's gonna shoot the guy openly displaying the gun first." To which the wife replied, "Yeah, but if EVERYONE'S openly carrying....."
I'm not young or old. I'm 44. Stuck in the middle. You know that saying "If you're young and not a liberal, you have no heart. If you're old and not a conservative, you have no brain"? Well, I am chronologically and philosophically exactly halfway in the middle of that. Which to me doesn't feel like "I'm a moderate" it feels more like "JANE! STOP THIS CRAZY THING!" I'm in a state of flux. I used to parrot liberal slogans and vote on issues without studying them. Now I read every scrap of legislation and every candidate's congressional record before voting, and feel like vomiting when I go to vote. No choices that fit.
We basically plan to live here for about ten more years, save money and retire. The wife has had the same job for 18 years, has a good situation. I can do my job from anywhere.
One issue is that, while we're both in pretty good health, Debra Jean has joint pain, and cold makes it a lot worse. When I told her about Wyoming, she pulled the covers over her head. But then she peaked out and said "Can I have a pony if we live there?" I said, "I don't see why not..."
Michael
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OC has always seemed like a scary option to me. I think may have been Ayoub who said something like "I prefer concealed. If a bad guy starts shooting, he's gonna shoot the guy openly displaying the gun first."
That old saw about open carry is simply not true. Find ONE documented example of that ever happening... you can't. It is statistically irrelevant, especially in a rural area. That idea has been talked to death on a dozen shooter's boards, and I've read lots of them. In a big city with nasty gangs, it might be different, of course, but we don't have that problem. There is no wrong way to carry... And remember that Ayoub - great as some of his advice may be - is a cop, with his own agenda.
I open carry everywhere, every day. This is part of the story: http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/07/02/12/editor.htm (http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/07/02/12/editor.htm) I seriously need to update it, but it might help.
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OC has always seemed like a scary option to me. I think may have been Ayoub who said something like "I prefer concealed. If a bad guy starts shooting, he's gonna shoot the guy openly displaying the gun first."
That old saw about open carry is simply not true. Find ONE documented example of that ever happening... you can't. It is statistically irrelevant, especially in a rural area. That idea has been talked to death on a dozen shooter's boards, and I've read lots of them. In a big city with nasty gangs, it might be different, of course, but we don't have that problem. There is no wrong way to carry... And remember that Ayoub - great as some of his advice may be - is a cop, with his own agenda.
I open carry everywhere, every day. This is part of the story: http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/07/02/12/editor.htm (http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/07/02/12/editor.htm) I seriously need to update it, but it might help.
Point well taken.
Yup. While Ayoub is obviously "one of the good ones", it's like Boston says, cops tend to see the trees, not the forest. Cops see the worst aspects of humanity every day, and tend to be in that mindset.
MWD
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This post alone is almost enough to convince me to move to WY. Compared to most of the states that is HEAVEN! Seriously I think you just convinced me to set a date for my trip. GREAT post, thank you.
I guess freedom is relative.
Since moving to Crook County I'm free to:
Build a house whichever way I want with no zoning.
Ditto with "land use". There isn't any here.
I needed no excavation permit.
I needed no building permit.
I needed no electrical permit.
I needed no plumbing permit.
I needed no inspections of any kind for the structure (only for the septic system, which is controlled by the state).
I live on a private road. I'm "free" to drink and drive on it (if I was foolish enough to).
I OC my gun nearly every place I go in WY & SD. No one has ever freaked out over it.
I can shoot from my deck without causing alarm from either the neighbors or law enforcement.
The sheriff deputies wave when we pass each other on the highway. I wave back.
The deputies start up pleasant conversation when they see me OCing rather than "GET ON THE GROUND!"
I'm free to look up at the Milky Way and the meteor showers without man made light pollution.
I'm able to drive around at night on the highways and almost never have to use my low beams due to oncoming traffic.
And I'm able to call or visit the local county offices, like the county clerk, treasurer, assessor, and DMV, and get polite, prompt, friendly service with a smile.
This may not fit someone else's definition of being "free", but it's about the closest thing you'll EVER find in this country in the 21st century. Wyoming may not be perfect, but it's the closest thing I've found to heaven while living on earth.
Mac
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We like the health benefits from her cube farm.
This must be somewhat a feminine thing. My wife worries about this too. I don't get it.
Your health is in your own hands. Get some outdoor work or hobbies, eat healthy. You'll be fine. A lot better than dealing with hospitals all the time, drugs, doctors, insurance companies - ugh!
We are mortal beings, meant to be here for a while, then we're gone. Deal with it. It's better I think not to get too wrapped around health issues if you can avoid it (personally I think mental attitude affects health quite a lot).
What kind of tradeoff is it, to spend your life in a cube farm so you have better access to a hospital? Which you'll need because of a sedentary life? ???
Excuse the rant.
We basically plan to live here for about ten more years, save money and retire. The wife has had the same job for 18 years
Retire here, after 10 years? Hmmm. To me, if you are planning something for 10 years, you are planning not to do it. Might as well just give up on the idea right now. Or, plan for a year or less, and get the thing done. Can always move back, or somewhere else, if it doesn't work for some reason. My wife and I move at the drop of the hat. Maybe that's not normal. :)
As to work, I can't imagine the same job for 18 years. The most I managed was 6 years before I had to move on. Remember, the grass is always greener on the other side of the hill. ;)
Cold? You get used to it. Blood thickens, or whatever. You stay mostly inside in the winter anyway, except those clear sunny winter days (which are not rare here). Or you can escape south for a break once in a while, a common tradition here. Wyoming is not the arctic...
Pony? We have something around 37 horses at last count. Enough I think!
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Good points, Paul.
We are figuring out that Debra Jean and I are probably not good candidates for being relocating members of the Free State Wyoming movement. That's what I've been trying to figure out, why I've been posting. Because the ideals intrigued me. A lot. Especially the fact that they are not just ideals, but ideals in action.
But it's probably not my correct personal course of action. I think the "return to the country" idea is in my blood, but I don't think it's in my hands and back. I have probably have too much of an aversion to a lot of manual labor to make it there. I do more physical work in a week than many computer-job city folk do: I do my own home repair, I carry heavy objects when I need to, I don't balk at a walk, but all of that combined probably takes up an hour or two of my day, and I like it like that. And I'm really attuned to conveniences of exurb life. Call it soft if you will, but it's me, and it's what I like.
My parents were farmers, their parents, etc, all the way back to Europe. My siblings and I were the first in our line to go to college, and even so, my two sisters (both older than me) did a few years at living off the land and off the grid, one in Vermont, one in West Virginia. As a kid, I absolutely LOVED the places they lived, and imagined living like that one day. Now both sisters have jobs-with-benefits, but both live on over ten acres that they own, but within an hour of a city (one in Upstate New York, one in Virginia.) I think that's the sort of situation where my wife and I would be most happy, and where we'll probably end up.
I think it's important to be honest with myself and not be swept up with a romantic ideal, when I'd work like a dude rancher and complain and starve once I'm there.
Even though I most likely won't be moving to Wyoming to live, I'll probably stick around on here and read, and maybe chime in to ask occasional questions, if that's OK. There's a lot to learn for me here, and I think that even if I'll never take the oath, I'd like to be sort of a "adjunct in-philosophical-agreement member (or maybe just call it "a friend", if there's any room for that.
Respectfully,
Michael W. Dean
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Much as some of us might like to, not everyone here is even close to "self-sufficient." I'm not sure that's even really possible. We all need each other, and good neighbors are the best part of life in Wyoming.
There are cities here, and lots of people work ordinary jobs in and around them, buy their food at the grocery store and live as little or as much outdoors as they please or are able to.
There is no reason to think you must become a farmer, cowboy or a roustabout to move to Wyoming! Your daily activities wouldn't need to change at all, unless you wanted them to.
What would be different is the attitude and character of those all around you.
Might want to think about it from that angle. :)
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Thorndaddy, you do not have to join us. You can come and go as you please. I am getting the feeling that you feel like you have to join the group and move to Wyoming if you spend time on this forum ? While that is the overriding goal it is not manditory. I think we have many folks on line here who are just testing the waters , they have a dream , a feeling that there might be more freedom for them somewhere . But where? I will not try to twist your arm about moving to Wyoming. But I will ask you to think about visiting Wyoming if you are able. There are places in Wyoming that rival upstate NY and VA on many levels. There are all of the ammenities of any other US state. For instance ,in Rock Springs , where I spent many years, there are doctors,lawyers,PHD college professors,people of 56 nationalities. My wife and I are blue collar, simple folks and we hung out with all types of people .The landscape in Rock Springs is high mountain desert, sagebrush country. I lived in a normal subdivision but I could go five miles from my house and be in the wilderness. Within an hours drive were some of the most beautiful mountains in america. Within 3 hours was the large city of Salt Lake City. There are other towns like Rock Springs. There are many smaller, some larger, they all have thier individual cultures. I always advise people to take a vacation and see many different parts of Wyoming. This is the only real way to find out what we here are so excited about.