Author Topic: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States  (Read 52027 times)

Offline Terence

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Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2011, 10:48:50 AM »
VTR,

If one was. . .

. . . more thoroughly scouting their terrain (i.e. their body of law - commercial, international securities, estate, etc) and securing a spot that gives more "coasting potential" for the vehicle of a private community.

and found such a vehicle, wouldn't that vehicle, in turn, be subject to:

. . .the external governing laws of commerce and property . . .

[AND]

. . .the prime movers hold majority voting rights via stock in commodity capital (coal, oil, other mineral reserves), declarations of future cashflow expectations from commercial transactions, etc...that's what woos the politicians.

What sort of mechanism or vehicle did you have in mind?  A home or land owners association?

Interesting stuff,

Terence
Liberty is “Stolen” by your own signature. Find the adhesion contracts and deal with them.

Offline VFTR55

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Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2011, 08:00:19 PM »
T,
  Yes, it would still be subject to the things mentioned, but everyone within U.S. jurisdiction already exists within that proverbial matrix anyway. This is just hunting for some more robust body armor...a defensive, bottom-up approach to hedge for risk of future individual rights encroachments in the general spirit of the existing lowest common denominator of belief here  i.e. no one advocates initiation of force, but maintaining the legal right to defend oneself and private property within the bounds of the law (assuming law serves and not enslaves, that is).

Obviously, one of the tried-and-true tactics in corralling an uncooperative adversary is to wear them down or overpower economically - the supports of local infrastructure will more than likely hold, but with external forces in play, over time, the established crowd that has been comfortably unaware of the fiscal turbulence & drought (i.e. capital supply disruptions) traveling through the adjacent pipelines (i.e. bordering states), forcing many to seek out less toxic watering holes in the local crowd's backyard...the locals will find that the inflows cannot be dealt with by forceful removal (e.g. can't put em in a bucket and dump em off over the state line! Can't pull the stopper in the drain opening!) You can overpower them at the voting booth on the micro-level stuff if the numbers are there, but over time, who knows...

Basically I'm suggesting that the FSW incorporate as an inter vivos, revocable private foundation, charitable lead, private annuity trust fund, or something else of the sort.   :o Now hear me out...

If FSW, as phobic to collective organization as we all are, could agree on a very loose repertoire of "product offerings" to put out in the local community to foster interest in the principles and activities of the libertarian movement, which would give rise to:

1) an operations branch - Rifleman shoots, homesteading, educational workshops on Ham radio, electronics & software (Linux emphasized), creative writing (Boston, there's your cue), etc...and generate revenues from such activities (up-front collection, donations, ChipIn funds on a FSW blog, wildlife rescue site, etc) gives rise to

2) the financing branch

...after costs of travel, materials, time, expertise, etc paid back to FSW members who put on such events, and marketing expenses (hopefully the net and local flyers take care of most of that)...the profits would be invested through

3) an investment branch - private investment company, not regulated by the SEC, only voluntary association and interpersonal contract. The investment portfolio could have three divisions common to all asset class investments: short-term (topped- or bottomed-out value plays on stocks or funds in commodities which investors have knowledge in), medium-term (trending stocks e.g. rare earths, oil & gas, etc), and, more immediately relative to the aims of garnering influence within local government... long-term (local muni bonds [tax-free], dividend or interest-paying shares in mineral royalty trusts, etc). A conservative money & risk management algorithm, minding any requisite maturity dates for one or more company members' shares, would be paramount

  - with this of course must come several substructures in the legal construction of the vehicle to protect other proverbial passengers, give them clear paths to entry & exit with minimal friction, etc...sounds like a lot, but people of principled understanding can frame up a structure without too many frivolous appointments and get the thing to serve its purpose without the roof falling on anyone's head.

...at first blush, this sounds like heresy for a libertarian/non-conformist-leaning forum I know  ;)


most of the effort in getting such a structure up would be the proverbial planning, grading, and foundation pouring, which would be a collaborative effort amongst the first crop of members to come forward with interest and resources to offer in helping to build the thing. Framing the structure in the trust would take some time, getting the plumbing loop logic for the financing and wiring the network of market exposure in FSW's circuit would be getting to the less intensive phases.


Shoot at this plane with whatever gun you want  ;D Just tossin ideas around.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2011, 08:13:07 PM by VFTR55 »
"Finance has become the modern mode of warfare. It is cheaper to seize land by foreclosure rather than armed occupation, and to obtain rights to mineral wealth and public infrastructure by hooking governments and economies on debt than by invading them."   - Michael Hudson

Offline Boston

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Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2011, 05:57:06 PM »
VFTR55, I appreciate your best wishes for the FSW, and your ideas to
further our success.

I continue to strongly believe that the more decentralized and individualized
the FSW remains, the more unstoppable of a relocation phenomenon it is.
We remain outside of regulations touching on banking, entity structure,
political campaigning, etc., etc.

We just a bunch of folks who love the West and Wyoming enough to move here.
Nothing fancy, and nothing graspable. 
Also, with no money to delegate, we entirely avoid fractious issues.

Those who wish to market the FSW, are invited to do so as they wish as FSWers
(vs. as the FSW), with their own time and money -- joined by whomever wishes. 
Perfect $ democracy, as you spend it as you wish.

Perhaps some of your organizational plans could be of real use as adjuncts
to our FSWness, and folks are welcome to start any kind of facilitating orgs
they wish.  PACs, educational foundations, etc.  Please post the news on
our forum and we'll try to promulgate them.

Regards,
Boston

Offline Terence

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Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2011, 01:09:07 AM »
Shoot at this plane with whatever gun you want  ;D Just tossin ideas around.

Hey, when you're tossing ideas around it's great to have lots of them. Thanks for
a comprehensive answer, VTR.

Lots of stuff in your "Operations" category is of interest to me. When it comes to entities
or groups I'm a big fan of sifting through lots of ideas and being brutal in
honing it down to either one or zero. I think the advantage of that can be seen in the
opposite approach: A person listed on a dozen boards of this or chairmen of that
usually translates into doing nothing on everything. This is just
personal approach not a comment on your brian storming.

Since everything is on the matrix, as you say, one way to hone things down
might be to define what success look like, find a person or group in history that's
done it and reverse engineer their structure. How did the Amish get out
of Social Security? How were they opted out of Obamacare before the
monopoly creating exclusion list was even created?  Why do the police want nothing
to do with China town?  How do inmates ever get to the point of controlling a prison?
There's lots of game-theory type examples in nature, as well, depending on what's
trying to be accomplished.


Terence
Liberty is “Stolen” by your own signature. Find the adhesion contracts and deal with them.

Offline Paul Bonneau

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Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2011, 08:32:26 AM »
Quote
Obviously, one of the tried-and-true tactics in corralling an uncooperative adversary is to wear them down or overpower economically -

Or just go around them. That is, don't even try to "corral" them. Better to keep a low profile and form "agoras".

I agree with Boston.

I like your gaming theory ideas, Terrence. There is a lot of research to be done in that area. There is also exposition; that's why I have been nagging Boston to do another book (or help me do one) showing how such communities could operate.  :)

BTW, Free State Wyoming got a mention in Rawles' latest article, 33 Ways to Encourage Atlas to Shrug.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 08:34:11 AM by Paul Bonneau »
Laws turn men into slaves.

Offline Boston

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Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2011, 09:27:12 AM »
Quote
Since everything is on the matrix, as you say, one way to hone things down
might be to define what success look like, find a person or group in history that's
done it and reverse engineer their structure. How did the Amish get out
of Social Security? How were they opted out of Obamacare before the
monopoly creating exclusion list was even created?  Why do the police want nothing
to do with China town?  How do inmates ever get to the point of controlling a prison?
There's lots of game-theory type examples in nature, as well, depending on what's
trying to be accomplished.

Great idea, Terence.
I sort of did this with the FSW after watching liberals flood into Colorado and
change the state.  (Not that I want to change Wyoming, but further its already
libertarian leanings.)

___________
Paul, regarding your great idea for a book, I'm happy to help where
I can (timewise), but am too swamped to actually write it this year myself.

___________
New followup article by Rawles:

33 Ways to Encourage Atlas to Shrug
http://www.survivalblog.com/2011/04/33_ways_to_encourage_atlas_to.html

Boston
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 09:44:39 AM by Boston »

Offline VFTR55

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Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2011, 08:40:25 PM »
Yet another attempt to lasso Boston into some sort of herd & he cunningly avoids - the dude does not abide  ;D Perhaps a parallel (un)organization like you suggest is best.

Paul: I was too vague with the allegory - bureaucrats as the corral'ers I meant.

Terence: my 1st guess is that the Amish as a unit are considered a tax-exempt religious private foundation per IRC, but I wonder about taxation of commerce w/ the outside world e.g. when they sell furniture to u.s. citizens...

...somewhere way up the chain of authority (or maybe simply as low the muni manager-level) somebody knows that the international commercial activity generated by Asian sources, encouraged locally via gov't subsidies, creates too many complications in trying to strike a balance w/ maintaining order in places like Chinatown (if/when needed), and generating revenue for their coffers without biting the hand that feeds them too hard.

Not trying to solve the prison riddle.

Anyway, yeah, there's several ways to skin the cat. I used Jim Rogers as an extreme (in the subjective-eyed) example.
"Finance has become the modern mode of warfare. It is cheaper to seize land by foreclosure rather than armed occupation, and to obtain rights to mineral wealth and public infrastructure by hooking governments and economies on debt than by invading them."   - Michael Hudson

Offline Danl

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Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2011, 02:57:24 AM »
A comment about the Amish.........  The Amish I know have no written code that they follow, other than say, the Bible.  Each community, or settlement as they call them, determines among themselves what their particular, group or settlement, is going to practice in the way of rules (ordnung).... generally they are not even written down, rather they are generally agreed by the group.  A leader is established for a time, usually an older well established person.

Quote
Ordnung - definition - All aspects of Amish life are dictated by a list of written or oral rules, known as Ordnung, which outlines the basics of the Amish faith and helps to define what it means to be Amish. For an Amish person, the Ordnung may dictate almost every aspect of one's lifestyle, from dress and hair length to buggy style and farming techniques. The Ordnung varies from community to community and order to order, which explains why you will see some Amish riding in automobiles, while others don't even accept the use of battery-powered lights. attribute->  http://pittsburgh.about.com/cs/pennsylvania/a/amish_2.htm

The advantage for the Amish is that there is really no structure, at least formally, and certainly not legally by this group of people.  However most of the Amish groups that I know of are caving in to the pressure from the government to obtain SSNs and birth certificates, or at least, what is called an, IRS number that is supposedly not a SSN but is supposed to be an ID number  they can use without obligation to pay SS taxes.  They are getting sucked in because they want bank accounts and loans etc and banks just will not go along with accounts with no 'tax ID number' to put in the blank even tho they are allowed to by law.  They just do not want to buck the system authorities.  It is like an 'unwritten' rule for banks that if they try to go around the "expected" behavior the "audits will increase until compliance with our expectations is observed."

Regards, Danl ~W~
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 03:01:09 AM by Danl »
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Offline manfromnevada

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Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2011, 10:02:05 AM »
Danl said:
They are getting sucked in because they want bank accounts and loans etc and banks just will not go along with accounts with no 'tax ID number' to put in the blank even tho they are allowed to by law.  They just do not want to buck the system authorities.  It is like an 'unwritten' rule for banks that if they try to go around the "expected" behavior the "audits will increase until compliance with our expectations is observed."


I had first hand experience in this regard with an annuity company that sent me a letter some years back saying that "because of the PATRIOT Act, we can no longer accept cash, cashier's checks, drafts, or cash equivalents." They made it sound like the government had mandated their new rules. So I called them and asked them exactly which part of the USA PATRIOT Act said they couldn't accept cashier's checks. Well . . . . it's because . . . . that is . . . well, it's not actually the PATRIOT act directly, but we have a POLICY. I told them I'd like a copy of that policy since I'm a customer. They said they'd get back to me. They didn't. So I wrote a letter. They finally said they wouldn't share the policy. It was internal use only. Lowly customers need not apply to see it. It's all for my protection of course.

And so it goes.

Mac
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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Offline Crappiewy

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Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2011, 11:22:10 AM »
Just try to open a new bank account today. They want to know ALL about you. And if something doesent match exactly, they want written explainations as to why they dont match. I have only one account left myself. Ive had it since 1976. They have been sending me letters at first once a year but today it is every month demanding my SSN. I said no. One of these days they will probably cancel it.

Offline Terence

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Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2011, 12:06:45 PM »

I sort of did this with the FSW after watching liberals flood into Colorado and
change the state. 


And the 'structure' you settled on was Optimal, IMO  ~W~

[A book] showing how such communities could operate.

Great idea (And timing) for a book on that subject.

The folklore of frontiersmen having to work from sunup to sundown is devoid of
cooperation with others.  That missing ingredient and means of exchange(s) and
the good life doesn't have to lead to an early work-a-holic grave.

Aborigines, Indians, A bulletin board virtual agora. . .wolfpacks?  ;D

Terence
Liberty is “Stolen” by your own signature. Find the adhesion contracts and deal with them.

Offline Herk

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Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2011, 11:50:48 AM »
Just opened my first bank account in this country today.



What makes it worse is that I'm now putting what remains of my 'taxable' income into it.  :-\
Shiny; let's be bad guys.

III

Offline Boston

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Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2011, 09:46:39 AM »
Quote
Yet another attempt to lasso Boston into some sort of herd & he cunningly avoids - the dude does not abide   Perhaps a parallel (un)organization like you suggest is best.
LOL!
Thanks,

Boston

Offline FDNYLiberty

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Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2011, 10:54:02 PM »
A "thought provoking" analysis of JW Rawles' "American Redoubt" article by Arctic Patriot:

Thoughts on the "American Redoubt" and Secession...
(Thoughts on the "American Redoubt", posted by Rawles, linked at WRSA.)
By Arctic Patriot

http://arcticpatriot.blogspot.com/2011/05/thoughts-on-american-redoubt-and.html

Offline LtE327

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Re: The American Redoubt -- Move to the Mountain States
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2012, 02:56:58 PM »
MOST interesting, especially the Constitution Con article that can be found above.  Lots of new things in there that seem to make a lot of sense.  I may have to change my little slogan below, after some more research, of course.  FREEDOM is still my religion, but maybe the US Constitution shouldn't be my Bible !!
Freedom is my religion, the US Constitution is my bible.