Author Topic: Greetings, how is the electron flow?  (Read 18073 times)

Offline shattenjagger

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Re: Greetings, how is the electron flow?
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2011, 11:59:35 AM »
Paul, you hit the nail on the head.

Speaking from the construction side, our cost to complete a project is virtually unchanged as the tax credits and subsidies wax and wane. What really changes on the comercial side is the price of the turbine itself, when sudsidies are strong the manufacturers realize they can charge more, demand is higher as investors attempt to capitalize. The commercial payoff periods are catching up to the traditional energy sources without tax incentives, but we are not quite there yet.

On the homestead side of things, the returns flux with the free market, the only benefit of the commercial regulation being the ability to piggy back on new technology that is innovated by the big boys.

manfromnevada, while some of your statements are a little strong and possibly dated, i agree on one point, let the free market decide. Nuclear is the clear way to go, modern systems are cheap and efficient, smaller plants are feasible with the ability to be distributed across a grid, from 20MW to 1000MW, good luck with the government regulation though, not to mention NERC AND FERC tightening grid requirements

FDNYliberty, thanks for the vote of confidence, I would be happy to answer any questions you have.

And finally, the molten cells are electrolytic, but their operating temp is somewhere around triple boiling, not a roadblock by any means, but you may want the stored in the middle of nowhere, perhaps WY :^) Flywheels present a similar problem, that is a lot of energy stored, a little unbalance and that thing will go off like a bomb. Underground pressurized storage could be a possibility in that nice rock bed in wyoming.







Offline manfromnevada

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Re: Greetings, how is the electron flow?
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2011, 07:47:51 PM »
I'm just pointing out that "alternative energy" is not the panacea that many people purport it to be.
Too many people think, "I'll just put up a windmill and get FREE energy!"
I only wish it were the case. I would have done it here.

When you invest and build an energy system, YOU own it, YOU maintain it, YOU repair it, and YOU live with the limited power output. I doubt many air conditioning systems are connected to a wind turbine system. Nor heat pumps. Nor electric heat. Nor electric clothes dryers. Nor electric ranges. Light bulbs? Yes. Computers? Yes. Refrigerators? Yes.

The point is that it changes the whole dynamic of your household energy consumption.
It's like the difference between having city water and sewer vs. your own well and septic.
The former is convenient. THEY own the infrastructure. You simply connect. You don't have to do a thing, but the fees are outside of your control.
The latter comes with the baggage of a pump failure, lightening strike, lowered water table, over-filled septic tank, plugged leachfield, or water logged leachfield after a long wet spring.

As long as people get all the facts and make a decision with eyes wide open then that's fantastic. The one real plus is independence from the outside world as far as electricity is concerned. Keeping in mind that what you don't consume in electrical energy probably has to be made up with propane unless you're using wood to heat water, heat your home, and dry your clothes.

Mac
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
<Edmund Burke>

Offline Crappiewy

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Re: Greetings, how is the electron flow?
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2011, 08:59:28 PM »
Like I said. COAL :D

Offline Dennis Wilson

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Re: Greetings, how is the electron flow?
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2011, 10:40:24 PM »
Jim Davies did a good article on Thorium

http://www.theanarchistalternative.info/zgb/11A081.htm

Thorium by Jim Davies, 3/23/2011 

and followed up with an article on a very promising harnessing of underseas volcanic vents

http://www.theanarchistalternative.info/zgb/11A089.htm

Outside the Box by Jim Davies, 3/31/2011

 :( Unfortunately, neither are likely to scale down to fit in my back yard...
« Last Edit: July 17, 2011, 05:21:22 PM by Dennis Wilson »

adambomb

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Re: Greetings, how is the electron flow?
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2011, 03:32:07 PM »
Wind energy isn't out of reach to private owners, there are actually quite a few people with personal wind turbines in Iowa.  In fact, as I recall Alliant Energy had a deal where you can actually get paid for any excess power you produce, sort of a "meter runs backwards" deal.  But then again we have to have all our coal shipped in from Wyoming by train.   ;)

Here's the latest update to an ongoing dilemma one of my old college buddies had in MN with his own private wind turbine.  Sounds like another good reason not to get too comfy in MN!

http://www.winonadailynews.com/news/local/article_40aa79a8-f459-11df-bddf-001cc4c03286.html

From a personal standpoint, wind really does sound like a practical alternative energy, albeit with a few drawbacks.  If we got the battery situation figured out many of those drawbacks would be reduced or eliminated.  But even with the current drawbacks, wind still makes a good supplementary power source by reducing your dependency on grid power.

Offline manfromnevada

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Re: Greetings, how is the electron flow?
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2011, 10:48:01 AM »
adambomb said:
"From a personal standpoint, wind really does sound like a practical alternative energy, albeit with a few drawbacks.  If we got the battery situation figured out many of those drawbacks would be reduced or eliminated.  But even with the current drawbacks, wind still makes a good supplementary power source by reducing your dependency on grid power."

You just can't wish it to be true. Some places just don't have much wind. Some places are up in a canyon with 75' pine trees (like mine), so wind will NEVER be practical here. You can't harvest something that's not there. Like wanting to use hydro on your property when there's no water!

The turbine in the news article is a Bergey Excel rated at:
Rated Wind Speed:  12 m/s (27 mph)
Rated Power: 10 kW for grid intertie, 7.5 kW for battery-charging

At 1/2 of the "rated speed", at a still brisk 13.5 mph, you'll get 1/8th of the above amounts.
So, for $30K, plus batteries, plus maintenance, you might get 1KW although here at my place the wind seldom even gets to that speed. Just stating the facts.

And actually, no, they don't "turn the meter backward", they typically install a second meter so that one shows your usage and one shows the amount fed back, but the amount fed back is not bought at the same retail rate you pay for yours. It's typically at a wholesale rate that the utility pays for energy from its producers. This is all determined by state regulations and power company rules.

Just make sure you cut thru the hype and know the facts before you buy into such an investment.

Mac

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
<Edmund Burke>

adambomb

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Re: Greetings, how is the electron flow?
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2011, 07:38:06 PM »
adambomb said:
"From a personal standpoint, wind really does sound like a practical alternative energy, albeit with a few drawbacks.  If we got the battery situation figured out many of those drawbacks would be reduced or eliminated.  But even with the current drawbacks, wind still makes a good supplementary power source by reducing your dependency on grid power."

You just can't wish it to be true. Some places just don't have much wind. Some places are up in a canyon with 75' pine trees (like mine), so wind will NEVER be practical here. You can't harvest something that's not there. Like wanting to use hydro on your property when there's no water!

The turbine in the news article is a Bergey Excel rated at:
Rated Wind Speed:  12 m/s (27 mph)
Rated Power: 10 kW for grid intertie, 7.5 kW for battery-charging

At 1/2 of the "rated speed", at a still brisk 13.5 mph, you'll get 1/8th of the above amounts.
So, for $30K, plus batteries, plus maintenance, you might get 1KW although here at my place the wind seldom even gets to that speed. Just stating the facts.

Where did I state this as a "one size fits all" solution?  Iowa just so happens to have some of the highest average wind speeds in the country, and the better part of the state is flat, so in many parts of the state it is viable.  From what I recall Wyoming is fairly high on the list of windy states as well.  But anyone with that kind of money to invest would clearly want to do some research on their particular location.  I assumed that was not worth mentioning.

I will also agree that coal is clearly the best solution for grid power, actually had to do some research on this for a class project a few years ago and that was our determination as well, due to the fact that it is cheap, abundant, and with modern coal plants emissions are perfectly acceptable. 

Our studies also showed that wind was the most cost effective alternative energy.  And until someone markets a coal plant small enough to power a household, I'd venture to say that if you're looking for an off-grid solution there isn't anything better at the moment, location dependent of course.


And actually, no, they don't "turn the meter backward", they typically install a second meter so that one shows your usage and one shows the amount fed back, but the amount fed back is not bought at the same retail rate you pay for yours. It's typically at a wholesale rate that the utility pays for energy from its producers. This is all determined by state regulations and power company rules.

the "meter runs backward" comment was merely an analogy, hence the quotes.

Just make sure you cut thru the hype and know the facts before you buy into such an investment.

Mac



Offline manfromnevada

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Re: Greetings, how is the electron flow?
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2011, 09:09:02 AM »
I stand by my last sentence:
Just make sure you cut thru the hype and know the facts before you buy into such an investment.

Location, location, location. Yes, perhaps if you live on the plains of Iowa it would be worthwhile, but not here in the Black Hills. Trying to do so would be like the idiots in San Francisco who spent millions putting solar collectors on their city hall even though SF is frequently cloudy and foggy. You can't harvest something that's not there.

The reason I point out the electric meter "running backward" analogy is that it's misleading. It implies that if I produce an extra 5KW-Hrs during the night when it's windy and I'm asleep, and the next day I consume 5KW-Hrs during the day while it's calm, that it's a wash and I don't have to pay anything. That's not the case since it's not "running backward" and as I said previously there's usually two meters (outgoing and incoming) that keep track of the two different rates that you will receive or pay. Some states FORCE utilities to buy excess energy from consumers, some do not. This is akin to requiring Walmart to buy your excess tomatoes in the summer to make up for the ones you bought during the winter! Best advice is to check with your local utility and find out their policy and requirements. I have no idea what the state of Wyoming mandates in this regard (hopefully nothing at all).

Again, for some people, in certain areas, under certain conditions, with limitations, wind energy can be effective and advantageous. In most other cases, not so much.

Mac

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
<Edmund Burke>

Offline biathlon

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Re: Greetings, how is the electron flow?
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2011, 02:06:58 PM »
I have a Wyoming Master Electricians license. There are a lot of self reliant/survivalist types here that could care less about any subsidies or tax incentives. It is a growing market statewide primarily because many folks are waking to the fact of our probable future. Many do see even the most basic of necessities such as clean water, propane/compressed natural gas and electricity as their OWN responsibility not some large multinational corporation.
Best to show up and look around. We have a face to face culture here. Good luck. ;D

Offline Crappiewy

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Re: Greetings, how is the electron flow?
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2011, 05:19:12 PM »
Again I say COAL! :D

But if anyone is insistant on making turbines, Im in. :D

Offline shattenjagger

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Re: Greetings, how is the electron flow?
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2011, 10:11:29 PM »
Glad to hear that people are interested!
The sustainable economics of it really start to work out if you can attach a dollar sign to the value of self reliance.

Offline kylben

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Re: Greetings, how is the electron flow?
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2011, 10:32:17 PM »
Quote
if you can attach a dollar sign to the value of self reliance.

Inputs to that would be the chances of a rate increase and the cost of said increase, the chance of being cut off completely (or priced out of the market in full or part) and the value you place on having electricity. Also the marginal value of higher capacities vs lower ones - including possible profitable sale of such in a SHTF scenario - any subjective value you want to place on intangibles like peace of mind, sticking it to the man, the experience and education gained from doing it, etc., and the present value of the various future gains/losses discounted for the expected time frames over which you predict they will be realized.

Those are all very fuzzy, of course, so you'll want to apply error bars to each input, then find the likely maxima of the combined and weighted probability curves, plus the first or maybe second standard deviations as bounds to your expected scenarios. And don't forget to adjust your capital costs for both expected inflation and depreciation.

Simple really, just plug in those numbers.  :D
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Offline kylben

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Re: Greetings, how is the electron flow?
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2011, 10:34:37 PM »
Bonus points for doing that math denominated in gold instead of dollars.
Carpe Libertas!
An Agorist Manifesto in 95 Theses: http://www.humanadvancement.net/blog/index.php?itemid=247/

Offline manfromnevada

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Re: Greetings, how is the electron flow?
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2011, 09:08:26 AM »
The sustainable economics of it really start to work out if you can attach a dollar sign to the value of self reliance.

AGREED! 100%
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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adambomb

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Re: Greetings, how is the electron flow?
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2011, 10:40:27 AM »
Unfortunately it's fairly difficult to come up with good numbers to compare alternative energy, as there is an incredible amount of hype and emotional attachment for and against it, at least on a broad-brush level, ie trying to decide if coal or wind is "better," etc.  You have the hippie camp that is more likely to say damn the cost, it's good for the environment, and anti-hippie camp that says all this frou-frou stuff is a waste of money, and even another hippie camp (I like to think of them as the more Amish hippies in that they are anti-development) that claims the spinning blades are killing bats, etc.  Everyone who has done any published research has a bias towards one side or the other, and naturally these published results contradict each other quite a bit. 

As a further example of the illogical thought processes normally dedicated to deciding whether or not wind energy is "good," just the other day someone told me that wind turbines are bad because after the big motors in the top spin the blades up, they only make 15% more energy than they consume.  First off, anyone who claims they use motors to "spin up" the turbines should probably just keep their mouth shut.  The big turbines do have pitch and yaw control motors, but I have a hard time believing they consume that much energy relative to the output, at least over a long period of time.  But even if that were the case, you're still producing electricity, and if the fixed costs and operating costs of the turbine are less than the value of the electricity it produces over its life cycle, you are still coming out ahead.

Fortunately at the individual level at least you can look at average wind speeds in a given area, output of a specific turbine, purchase cost, installation cost, estimated life, maintenance costs, etc., and plug those into Kyle's metric and determine if it's "good."

I'm not sure about the rest of the country, but there has been probably a 20 fold increase in the amount of wind farms in Iowa in the last 5 years.  And while I'm sure they are probably getting some sort of federal subsidy, for them to put up that many would sure seem to indicate that there is some economic benefit to them as a source of energy.  I don't believe the world has gone that crazy just yet.  If the growth was solely based on subsidies it would probably be more comparable to the growth of ethanol IMO.  But of course these are all owned by the power company, and I don't know that much about growth in privately-owned wind turbines, other than they are available.  So to take a look at that, let's go back to more "broad brush" inherent issues with wind energy:  As everyone knows, wind energy only works when the wind is blowing.  So if your electrical demands aren't in sync with the wind, and it's your primary source of electricity, you're going to need storage, hence the requirements for better batteries as has been mentioned here earlier.  On a grid, they basically just "use less coal" when wind output is high.  On the other hand, wind is unattractive for grid power due to the cost of transmission; areas with high wind are not necessarily the areas with a lot of electrical demand, so transmission distance is often much higher.

In terms of electrical output, output increases with the length of the blade and height of the tower, which is why there weren't too many popping up until they started making these huge ones.  Basically they had to reach a break-even point where the towers became tall enough they could get the output high enough to get a solid net positive.  The constraints with making taller towers are, interestingly enough, largely limited by how big of a blade they can get down the highway from where the blade is manufactured to where the turbine is going.  Another factor is how to make such large blades cost effectively, which are often made of fiberglass.  The foundation is also important, as a very large turbine will have a large drag force at a large height, resulting in a VERY LARGE overturning torque.



So I guess my bottom line is that wind energy, in some applications at least, appears to be an economically sound source of alternative energy, and in some cases the only practical solution for an individual (at least until someone comes out with a "coal plant in a box" for under $50,000 or so  :P ).  For an individual, storage is most likely an important issue.  Net output/efficiency increases with turbine size, so smaller turbines like those sold to individuals may not be as much of a "big winner" as the larger ones the power company uses.  But I'm pretty sure my friend Jim in the link above probably ran the cost analysis on it, he's pretty level-headed.  Not sure what value he placed on the "dollar value of self reliance" though  ;D

For those fortunate enough to have a creek running through their property, this may be of interest, it's a company started in Afghanistan a few years ago by an American engineer that used to work for John Deere:

http://www.remotehydrolight.com/

Afghanistan costs (ie somewhat normal rates for material, but labor was $5-10 per DAY) were in the ballpark of $1,000 per kilowatt, with powerheads available that put out in the ballpark of 1-120 kW.  With a 10-15 foot column height of water on a stream maybe 3 ft. wide and 12" deep I'm thinking you could produce like up to 60 kW.  And it would be a lot more regular/reliable source than wind.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 10:48:36 AM by adambomb »