Author Topic: Greetings, how is the electron flow?  (Read 18133 times)

Offline manfromnevada

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Re: Greetings, how is the electron flow?
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2011, 11:33:37 AM »
adambomb said:

I'm not sure about the rest of the country, but there has been probably a 20 fold increase in the amount of wind farms in Iowa in the last 5 years.  And while I'm sure they are probably getting some sort of federal subsidy, for them to put up that many would sure seem to indicate that there is some economic benefit to them as a source of energy.  I don't believe the world has gone that crazy just yet.


Two things:
1. I've always marveled at the beautiful blending of fields of crops with huge turbines interspersed. A perfect blending of the two since the corn doesn't effect the wind and the turbines (the noise and view) doesn't effect the corn.
2. One thing that leads to a distortion in the market for wind power besides subsidies is MANDATES. Many states MANDATE what percentage of energy MUST come from "renewables" regardless of the economies. That percentage increases each year as more and more bureaucrats jump on the greenie bandwagon. California has banned coal plants and I think now even bans long term contracts from out of state coal generating plants (they get around it by issuing "temporary contracts". But even more moderate states have MANDATES.

Even here in Wyoming with Powder River Energy, they peddle "green tags".
http://www.precorp.coop/Products/RenewableEnergy/Renewables.cfm
Luckily, this is VOLUNTARY (so far).

Also, what I like about PRECorp is that their solution to "the poor" is again a voluntary program called Operation Roundup:
http://www.precorp.coop/AU/Coop/opr.cfm
They are not charging us, the government is not taxing us, and they are not taking operating revenue to distribute to "the poor". Rather they have a plan to "round up" your monthly bill and the contribution goes to a fund. Since the average "round up" amount comes out to $0.50 due to probability, that makes the typical yearly "round up" contribution to be $6 ($0.50 x 12).
I much prefer this method to the usual government tax on phones so they can "spread the wealth" to other users.

Mac
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
<Edmund Burke>

Offline Terence

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Re: Greetings, how is the electron flow?
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2011, 11:47:47 AM »
Quote
if you can attach a dollar sign to the value of self reliance.

Inputs to that would be the chances of a rate increase and the cost of said increase, the chance of being cut off completely (or priced out of the market in full or part) and the value you place on having electricity. Also the marginal value of higher capacities vs lower ones - including possible profitable sale of such in a SHTF scenario - any subjective value you want to place on intangibles like peace of mind, sticking it to the man, the experience and education gained from doing it, etc., and the present value of the various future gains/losses discounted for the expected time frames over which you predict they will be realized.

Those are all very fuzzy, of course, so you'll want to apply error bars to each input, then find the likely maxima of the combined and weighted probability curves, plus the first or maybe second standard deviations as bounds to your expected scenarios. And don't forget to adjust your capital costs for both expected inflation and depreciation.

Simple really, just plug in those numbers.  :D

I love this!  Now that you've laid out the workings of the equation you've got me thinking that self-reliance is a currency.
If that's too glib I'll go with "Self-reliance is better than money."

Terence
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Offline LisaIA

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Re: Greetings, how is the electron flow?
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2011, 02:17:06 PM »
I happen to have just completed a project consulting with a renewable energy association that was trying to train a workforce to install RE systems, mostly on a residential scale.  They have experienced a severe lack of demand for their training product, because despite having received government stimulus money to develop training facilities and course content, simply offering training didn't make the demand for the systems materialize.

Many states have Renewable Portfolio Standards (RPS) that apply to investor-owned utilities.  Distributed production via "net metering" is more popular in REC's where codes and regulations are less strict. 
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Offline kylben

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Re: Greetings, how is the electron flow?
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2011, 05:08:40 PM »
"Now that you've laid out the workings of the equation"

That's pretty generous there, Terence.  I was no less than half serious, but still, it's far from an equation.  It's maybe the way to start thinking about an equation, and may be useful for big ticket items, but really, I just do a gut-check and figure self-reliance for energy worth (to me) about $500 a year in additional costs, amortized out over the life of the equipment, and leave it at that.  I'm glad you like it, though.

"self-reliance is a currency."

Not a currency precisely, but you are very right in that it would do people a world of good to start thinking of it in business like and economic terms.  There's a stuff-that-hits-the-fan-load of tradeoffs in all this, and its too much to balance by gut alone. None of it is scalable if it doesn't leave you with more resources than what you started with, and doing things in the wrong order can leave you in a liquidity squeeze that you might not get out of.  I think wind has a place in that, but it has to be done the right way, so at each step you're left with enough resources to go on to the next stage.

As a lot here know, counter-economics is my preferred method of political-ish action (I'm trying NOT to start that argument here, just making an example), and I've long said that it will only ever catch on if it can be made to turn a profit. Self-reliance and preparedness are integral parts of agorism, so your thinking really applies to that as well. I think it applies to other forms of political activism also, though the "revenue" side has to come from a much more abstract kind of evaluation.  Either way, I think your (and shat's) observation about "monetizing" self-reliance, extended to other forms of value that fall generally under the broad political activism umbrella, is something worth thinking harder about.
Carpe Libertas!
An Agorist Manifesto in 95 Theses: http://www.humanadvancement.net/blog/index.php?itemid=247/

Offline Crappiewy

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Re: Greetings, how is the electron flow?
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2011, 06:10:08 PM »
Ill do a Coal plant in a box for 9oz Gold. :D

Offline kylben

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Re: Greetings, how is the electron flow?
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2011, 06:25:52 PM »
Quote
Ill do a Coal plant in a box for 9oz Gold.

That's pretty steep.  How many megawatts?
Carpe Libertas!
An Agorist Manifesto in 95 Theses: http://www.humanadvancement.net/blog/index.php?itemid=247/

Offline Crappiewy

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Re: Greetings, how is the electron flow?
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2011, 06:43:35 PM »
20kw. :D Megawatts dont fit in a box.

Offline kylben

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Re: Greetings, how is the electron flow?
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2011, 07:00:17 PM »
"20kw. "

Nominal or peak?  So lets see, typical home use is, what, 1.5 kW average, maybe on the order of 5 as a peak?

So this will provide peak power to 4 homes (.15 Algores), or average power to maybe 12.  Whats the fuel cost on that?  How much does it cost for the wiring and other circuitry to distribute the power? How long will the box last and what is the efficiency curve as it ages? 

For a small community of closely spaced homes (disregarding transmission losses for now), it looks like its in the ballpark of feasible, pending more hard numbers.   
Carpe Libertas!
An Agorist Manifesto in 95 Theses: http://www.humanadvancement.net/blog/index.php?itemid=247/

Offline manfromnevada

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Re: Greetings, how is the electron flow?
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2011, 08:40:27 PM »
A standard electric water heater, like mine, is 4.5KW.
And electric dryers are on a 30A 220VAC circuit so that's probably another 4KW (20A).
Through in about the same for an electric stove?
Could be 12KW right there unless you start balancing stuff and forcing sequencing.
Forget about air conditioning . . .

Mac
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
<Edmund Burke>

Offline kylben

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Re: Greetings, how is the electron flow?
« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2011, 09:11:51 PM »
"Could be 12KW right there unless you start balancing stuff and forcing sequencing. "

Hmm, you mean the statistics I looked up on the internet weren't right?  (Or maybe my math was wrong).

I'm thinking in a self-reliant, or full/partial off-grid situation, balancing, sequencing, and short-term storage is probably worth the effort.  Plus, solar for things like hot water is, as far as I know, way more efficient than it is for electric, so you could probably cut out the middleman and its load for that at least.

You could run your dryer from compost heat, or natural gas from dog waste.  :D
Carpe Libertas!
An Agorist Manifesto in 95 Theses: http://www.humanadvancement.net/blog/index.php?itemid=247/

Offline Crappiewy

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Re: Greetings, how is the electron flow?
« Reply #40 on: July 26, 2011, 09:20:21 PM »
Ok I can make 5kw too. But 20kw is more efficient. The same 20kw will also produce about 100 gallons of hot water per hour or heat your house too. You can live on 1.5kw if it is produced and stored for peak use such as in batteries.

Offline kylben

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Re: Greetings, how is the electron flow?
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2011, 09:47:57 PM »
Do you mean the coal box gives off that much as waste heat?  Or that it can do that instead of generating electricity? Or that 20kW of electricity will heat that much water?

Yeah, anything not on grid is going to require something to dampen the fluctuations.  Trying to provide for peaks that will only happen for minutes per day is too inefficient. Even distributed to multiple households, typical usage patterns mean that several individual peaks will coincide more than once in a while.

I do think that at first blush, this looks feasible, though I'd need to know a lot more details.  Can't do much about it till I get up to Wyo, though.
Carpe Libertas!
An Agorist Manifesto in 95 Theses: http://www.humanadvancement.net/blog/index.php?itemid=247/

adambomb

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Re: Greetings, how is the electron flow?
« Reply #42 on: July 27, 2011, 03:24:38 PM »
That is an excellent point with the waste heat.  Many of the buildings at Iowa State are heated with waste heat from the power plant via steam.  That would be an excellent source of house heat and water heat.  With a bit of craftiness it may even be possible to convert a clothes dryer to utilize this heat (I'm imagining replacing the heating portion in a gas dryer with, say, a heater core or two from a large van connected to the steam pipes?).

If it's unfeasible to generate enough power for air conditioning, it would be all the more reason to go for something that doesn't have as much need for it, like an earth home.  I've always liked those anyway.  And reducing the loads on the rest of the system would also go a long ways. 

Another option, thinking outside the box with a wind system with batteries, would be to just say to hell with 120V AC and run everything RV style, depending on how "rustic" you can live with.  Could probably augment it with solar on a 12V system.  Have an inverter to run power tools and some select appliances as needed.

So this will provide peak power to 4 homes (.15 Algores), or average power to maybe 12.

LOL, 4 homes = 0.15 Algores.  I can see the advertisement for this coal plant in a box now:  "Delivers 0.15 Algores of power for only 9 oz. of gold!"

Offline manfromnevada

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Re: Greetings, how is the electron flow?
« Reply #43 on: July 28, 2011, 09:28:24 AM »
"Could be 12KW right there unless you start balancing stuff and forcing sequencing. "

Hmm, you mean the statistics I looked up on the internet weren't right?  (Or maybe my math was wrong).

I'm thinking in a self-reliant, or full/partial off-grid situation, balancing, sequencing, and short-term storage is probably worth the effort.  Plus, solar for things like hot water is, as far as I know, way more efficient than it is for electric, so you could probably cut out the middleman and its load for that at least.

You could run your dryer from compost heat, or natural gas from dog waste.  :D

Nearly every electric HW heater I've seen is 4.5KW. They have two elements, top and bottom, both are 4.5KW, but only one ever comes on at a time to limit the max power. I just looked at the Home Depot website to look at a typical 30" freestanding electric range.
Broiler: 3,400W
2 large surface burners: 2,500W (each)
2 small surface burners: 1,200W (each)
No mention of baking element.

My heat pump / AC requires a 40A 220V breaker for the compressor and fan and TWO 60A 220V breakers for the two backup heat strips when it gets too cold.

Obviously, all of the above is out of the question when using "alternative" energy. Having to say, oops, I can't turn on more than one surface burner at a time, can't turn on any if I'm baking, can't run the well pump at the same time the water heater is running, and can't run the AC at all, just isn't going to work.

You can install a propane tank for hot water heating, clothes drying, and cooking, but up where I live I can't get propane for 1/2 the year due to the road conditions, so it would need to be a BIG tank.

But again, it does go back to lifestyle. If you want the independence but don't mind having to turn off one thing before you turn on the next, or wait until the next sunny warm day to do your laundry, then great.

Mac
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
<Edmund Burke>

Offline Crappiewy

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Re: Greetings, how is the electron flow?
« Reply #44 on: July 28, 2011, 10:00:49 AM »
I grew up in a house with no electricity. We heated it with wood, cooked with wood, used oil lamps for light, Made our own oil from beef fat. Hot water came from a 55 gallon drum in a box with a piece of glass tied over it. Had to drain it every night in the winter but we had hot water. Water came from a well with a hand jack pump in the kitchen.