Author Topic: Alt-market.com "Safe Haven States Project"  (Read 12489 times)

Offline Paul Bonneau

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Alt-market.com "Safe Haven States Project"
« on: September 14, 2011, 09:39:35 AM »
Interesting effort going on here:

http://alt-market.com/safehaven

I have made a couple of posts there telling them about us.
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Offline pedro wyomiing

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Re: Alt-market.com "Safe Haven States Project"
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2011, 06:12:10 AM »
Paul,
Do you have a direct link to Wyo data?  I surfed around the Alt site but did not find anything related to Wyo.

Thank YOu,
pW

Offline Bret

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Re: Alt-market.com "Safe Haven States Project"
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2011, 10:46:01 AM »
google to the rescue :)

http://www.alt-market.com/groups/viewgroup/58-Northeast+Wyoming
http://www.alt-market.com/social/search/field?FIELD_STATE=Wyoming  looks like only 3 listed as WY
https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aalt-market.com+wyoming the google query if you want more although nothing looked real promising

Offline Bret

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Re: Alt-market.com "Safe Haven States Project"
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2011, 07:39:17 PM »
I tried emailing this to Brandon of alt-market but they appear to have a misconfigured DNS system so mail is having issues. 

They have no mention of taxes due on bartering.  While many people do not think that bartering requires taxes the IRS disagrees.  I personally think this is silly because there is no profit generated, no capital gains, nothing.  If I go to the store and pick up something for a friend who repays me the exact cost of the item there is no tax assessed but when you barter it seems there is.  I probably should not say that too loudly or they will start taxing doing favors for friends. 

I personally think this is an important issue because they are pushing the barter aspect quite a bit and with tight budgets the tax collectors tend to come out like cockroaches in a cheap motel.  They are in essence running a higher risk of audits which will ultimately be based on estimated value of goods. 

http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html
Quote
Bartering occurs when you exchange goods or services without exchanging money. An example of bartering is a plumber doing repair work for a dentist in exchange for dental services. The fair market value of goods and services received in exchange for goods or services you provide must be included in income in the year received.

Further http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=187904,00.html words it slightly differently
Quote
Another example of a one-on-one, non-barter exchange transaction is a plumber doing repair work for a dentist in exchange for dental services. The fair market value of the goods and services exchanged must be reported as income by both parties.

Given this it looks like the IRS thinks the entire value of what you receive must be declared as income.  A person who does 1 daily barter for $300 would generate $109,500 in taxable income at the end of the year, as they only have the $300 item to show for their troubles they can not pay that tax bill.  There is something fundamentally wrong with this approach.

I bet they would frown upon Alice selling a $300 item for $0.01 (a loss so usually not taxable) to Bob and Bob selling a $300 item to Alice for $0.01.  It involved an exchange of money thus not the IRS definition of bartering but they would probably claim that it is in essence bartering and still go after people if they thought they could justify their existence by doing so.

Offline Terence

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Re: Alt-market.com "Safe Haven States Project"
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2011, 08:14:22 PM »
They have no mention of taxes due on bartering.

Are they emphasizing barter in relation to 'SafeHaven' or
just in general?

The key is to inform a fruitful barter
stopping short of running the exchange.  Something as
simple as a forum and a series of articles.

Any formal exchange would increase prices in overhead
and become liable for collecting taxes. Unless one has
the resources to run a 'B-Bay' it's not worth it.

Terence
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Offline Bret

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Re: Alt-market.com "Safe Haven States Project"
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2011, 09:57:16 AM »
Are they emphasizing barter in relation to 'SafeHaven' or
just in general?

The key is to inform a fruitful barter
stopping short of running the exchange.  Something as
simple as a forum and a series of articles.

I dont think that they are acting like an exchange, the IRS requires "barter exchanges" (which they get to define who and what they are) to file special tax papers on transactions as well.  Further if you buy stuff for the purpose of bartering you may be engaging in a "barter business" which requires other tax forms to be filed.  They do advocate bartering all over their site which is what prompted me to try to email Brandon about this particular issue.  Because of the prolific advertising of bartering between people I can see the IRS taking a closer look at that (they did just hire a ton more auditors). 

And people claim we do not have a national sales tax - we do its just called an income tax !


So when is the IRS going to go after school children swapping lunches for failing to report this as income?

Offline Terence

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Re: Alt-market.com "Safe Haven States Project"
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2011, 02:47:55 PM »
They do advocate bartering all over their site which is what prompted me to try to email Brandon about this particular issue.  Because of the prolific advertising of bartering between people I can see the IRS taking a closer look at that (they did just hire a ton more auditors).

Yes, and why invite unwarranted attention if there's truly no exchange?  I haven't met
Brandon but would think it no great new insight for Stuart to strike the balance
between informing the barter and running the exchange.  Something
like this: Your Optimal Barter Equation.

Terence
Liberty is “Stolen” by your own signature. Find the adhesion contracts and deal with them.

Offline craigercj

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Re: Alt-market.com "Safe Haven States Project"
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2011, 03:09:23 PM »

So when is the IRS going to go after school children swapping lunches for failing to report this as income?


Probably never.

Offline kingskid

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Re: Alt-market.com "Safe Haven States Project"
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2012, 02:02:20 PM »
Paul:  I have made a couple of posts there telling them about us.

Oh, so that's how I found out about FSW!  I've been trying to trace back when I first found out about it.  Now I know:  first stop was a Preppers group site, then went to Alt-Mkt, then to FSW!

KK
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2.  Never, ever work on your garage door spring!

Offline Foundit

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Re: Alt-market.com "Safe Haven States Project"
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2012, 05:17:02 PM »
Interesting effort going on here:

http://alt-market.com/safehaven

I have made a couple of posts there telling them about us.

Do the FSW'ers actually want to grow the project? I get a vibe from many FSW that they really don't want to grow it. 
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Offline Crappiewy

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Re: Alt-market.com "Safe Haven States Project"
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2012, 09:02:04 PM »
What project might that be?

Offline Foundit

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Re: Alt-market.com "Safe Haven States Project"
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2012, 09:24:15 PM »
What project might that be?

The Free State Project in Wyoming.  It seems many folks don't want to promote it, or make it hard for people to get involved. 
"If I cared for my life, I would have lost it long ago, trying to lose it, I find I cannot throw it away." -Bloody Bill Anderson

Offline Terence

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Re: Alt-market.com "Safe Haven States Project"
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2012, 05:36:50 AM »
What project might that be?

The Free State Project in Wyoming.  It seems many folks don't want to promote it, or make it hard for people to get involved. 

minute 30:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLrSmdzsIEM
Liberty is “Stolen” by your own signature. Find the adhesion contracts and deal with them.

Offline Foundit

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Re: Alt-market.com "Safe Haven States Project"
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2012, 09:46:19 AM »
What project might that be?

The Free State Project in Wyoming.  It seems many folks don't want to promote it, or make it hard for people to get involved. 

minute 30:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLrSmdzsIEM

Was this done as an act of a FSW member to promote it?  I have seen people here on the board time and time again NOT want to promote it. 
"If I cared for my life, I would have lost it long ago, trying to lose it, I find I cannot throw it away." -Bloody Bill Anderson

Offline MamaLiberty

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Re: Alt-market.com "Safe Haven States Project"
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2012, 09:50:35 AM »
There are a lot of different ways to promote something. Not all are equal. I have no idea if this one is good or not.
It's not that people are dumber, it's that stupidity used to be more painful.