Author Topic: Potential new FSW member with a twist  (Read 14456 times)

Offline Bret

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Potential new FSW member with a twist
« on: November 26, 2011, 05:51:32 PM »
My name is Bret and I am a potential FSW member.  FSW played a role in my decision on Wyoming but only modestly, most of the factors that caused FSW to exist were primary factors such as the low population density, general amount of freedom, low unemployment/good business climate, etc.  I am looking to do things a little different though.  While Wyoming is a lot more free than most places it is not as free as I personally want.

Here is a view into my thoughts on the matter.  It sounds too good to be true for many however the concept is sound and the BIA manual on this was updated this year making it more permissive than the 2008 policy was.  The short version is "form an indian reservation and let suitable candidates be tribal members regardless of ancestry".  The long version is below.

I want to be clear about this, I am not talking about a para-military type compound.  I am also not talking about a freeman type movement or any type of separatist or secessionist movement, at least not in the classical sense.  This is an indian nation carved out which would be equal to any other state in most respects. 


Massive federalization has resulted in an inability to vote with your feet and move to a different state that has different laws which are more suitable. 

Government subsidies, excise taxes and bailouts make it difficult to vote with your wallet. With subsidies you pay for items you do not want to.  Excise taxes discourage one item over another.  Bailouts require you to pay for the work product of a failed company.

Excessive government regulations have stripped the ability to vote with your labor.  Regulation compliance has a cost, in a small business this compliance is a larger percentage of the operating budget.  This in turn discourages fair competition between a “David vs Goliath”.

These are essential freedoms that many did not even know they had let alone lost.  They are important even if they do not seem like it.

The average American is taxed 20-40% of their income.  Your labor was traded in a fair value trade for your wage, no profit was generated.  The government claims that 1-2 days per week of that labor belongs to them.  When you attempt to spend the your wage you have more taxes.

To make matters worse taxes go for things like warrantless wiretaps, assassination lists, censorship, and all the silly laws we have tolerated over the years.  We end up with bridges to nowhere, tunnels for frogs, obvious graft and corruption. 

I desire to OPT-OUT of all of that.  This is not about destroying the country, it is about restoring my freedom and having a voice that matters.

I am a Bureau of Indian Affairs registered Indian.  That registration entitles me to take land and make it “Indian country”.  This can be any parcel of land.  I could get just enough land for myself and a few of my friends but I would like to share the gift of expanded freedom with others and build a community.

Indian country can have it's own government, that government gets 100% control over the rules of who is and is not a tribal member.  There is no blood quantum requirement for tribal membership under current law.  To put it another way, under current law it only takes 1 qualified Indian to set this up and then anyone can be made a tribal member regardless of ethnicity.  Becoming a tribal member does not require you to renounce anything, it does not require you to forego any programs or benefits, I for example hold a US passport but am a member of one tribal nation and can vote in their elections (as well as my state of residence).

The ultimate goal is full national sovereignty, a level on par with what the constitution says the member states should have but sadly they do not.  This is a goal that may never be realized however the first step is to opt-out of 99% of the system.  The last 1% requires one of several great events to occur which will be described below.  The government does not give up its power easily.



I am seeking to build a community where we all have a vested interest in each other.  Not a place where you have to help your neighbor but a place where you want to help your neighbor.  Where individuals have social contact with each other, they know their names, they greet each other as they walk down the street.  They look out for each other knowing that they too will be looked out for.   From what I have seen when I was in WY and from what I have read that is common there, as it appears to be in most rural environments (even where I live in California currently).

This is not a commune.  Each person should succeed or fail on their own merits.  They should own the product of their labor.  They should be able to live their life as they see fit providing they do not impair anyone's ability to do the same.   Freedom and personal responsibility are inextricably intertwined.  In order to have large amounts of freedom you must also have large amounts of personal responsibility, as one diminishes so too does the other.  You must be personally responsible for your actions as well as self deterministic.  There will be no welfare.  With a community, assistance is often provided through voluntary not compulsory means. 

One goal is self sufficiency.  To provide enough food by farming and ranching with extra for export to be able to acquire the items we would need or want such as salt, toilet paper, toothpaste, that new big TV and video game console.  With a large enough community there exists the potential to do non-farming related work such as the butcher, the baker, the candle stick maker, or just operating a tavern, restaurant, exporting wind/solar power.  Each person gets to decide what they would want to do, jobs are not assigned by anything other than  the true free market (something that rarely exists anymore).  There is an exception to this, no casinos.  Casinos require special permission, they complicate the process, they bring in other problems, they just aren't that good.  Alcohol laws must also conform to the surrounding state laws, this is a requirement of the government to prevent creating pockets of loopholes in the state system with respect to age and similar.



Suitable candidates would have to have a few common traits.  Personal responsibility, self determination, community respect, tolerance of others and be generally law abiding.  The last requirement is there because certain laws cease to exist such as federal firearms laws and federal drug laws (most tribal governments have laws against them and they have and can call in the DEA, FBI and others the Wind River reservation also had the issue of non-members dealing on the reservation which allows them in).  I do not want to have to deal with people abusing that to skirt the law and ultimately create problems for everyone else.



There are 14 laws that the federal government has jurisdiction over for tribal members on indian land, no other laws apply except when dealing with non-members (then all state and federal laws apply to that person and in things dealing with that person).  The 14 laws are murder, manslaughter, kidnapping, maiming, rape, arson, burglary, robbery, larceny of more than $1000, assault with a dangerous weapon or resulting in serious bodily injury, assault with intent to commit rape or murder, incest, felonious sexual molestation of a minor, felony child abuse or neglect (18 USC 1153).  For example, "simple assault" does not exist in that list, if it is between a non-member and a member then it would be prosecuted federally (if there is not a federal law then the state law applies but it is still prosecuted federally).


No state taxes.  No sales tax, state excise tax, sin tax, property tax, etc. Federal taxes may be eliminated under certain circumstances as well. No building permits or building code although personal responsibility dictates that you should build sound buildings.  State sales tax does apply to non-tribal members making purchases on the land, there are estimated and actual methods available in WY.



The government will be limited to protecting the rights of the people, nothing more and nothing less.  Any government position will be unpaid.  There will be no professional government workers, they must work for a living like everyone else.  Government positions will largely be title only and have no real power nor require any real amount of time.  There is a requirement for certain titles so that government to government discussions and contracts to be signed but outside of that there is no real power for the politician.



The process is fairly straight forward.  Land is purchased and then placed into a trust through the Bureau of Indian Affairs.  When the land goes into a trust it becomes “Indian country” and it is no longer part of the state.  Ownership of the land is by the trust, the land may not just be arbitrarily sold.  Banks may not foreclose on any properties within indian country either.  Indian country is a "domestic dependent nation" (Cherkoee Nation v Georgia, 30 US 1 - 1831).  This means that it is not a state and is a separate special entity.  The IRS views Indian country as a state and the government is taxed the same as a state government (ie it isnt). 

The only real differences are the laws that no longer apply and the potential to not pay federal income or payroll tax.  Indians living on indian land who earn their wage from the land itself (not just on it but from it) are exempt from federal income tax.  There are other potential ways to exempt a store owner or other "non-land derived income" as well, but until that is reviewed by a tax lawyer I do not wish to affirmatively state that it would be legally valid.  Indian country is not bound by the US federal constitution (Talton v Mayes, 163 US 376 1896) as they never ratified it.  The Constitution would not prevent us from printing our own currency with whatever backing we desire.  The exchange rate could be fixed in a way that the level of income falls below the threshold to cause income tax to be due.

If the US collapses the states are free to go their own way, this also includes "domestic dependent nations".  The state would have record of where Indian country is, providing the state is not hostile towards Indian country as California and New York have proved to be, it should be quick and painless to affirm full sovereignty at that time.  If the US recovers there is still more freedom than would otherwise exist.  I see it as a win-win.

This could be as small as 160 acres for me and some friends or 12,000 acres for no more than 750 people (16 acres per person average to account for food and housing requirements).  A high population density makes it harder to fulfill the self-sufficiency requirement, although part could have a higher density, a town center with the bulk being farm/ranch land.

Offline Terence

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Re: Potential new FSW member with a twist
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2011, 04:02:41 PM »

It's an interesting model to think through, Bret, at least. I recall seeing videos
and other links you posted, recently, on this and would need to digest them
before venturing a comment.

Welcome to the forum,

Terence
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Offline Bret

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Re: Potential new FSW member with a twist
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2011, 04:19:23 PM »
I dont recall videos on this, there is very little mainstream info on how to form an indian reservation because it is not something that most everyone can do.  I think there are only a bit over 1M in the US that qualify (ie have all the documentation required, more probably qualify if they file the paperwork to register themselves).

I do look forward to feedback from others on this, and I have a longer document that goes into more detail.  One of the aspects is that there will have to be framers of this government (which probably will be a rip of the intent of the one started in the late 1700s), there are several aspects I intentionally left open for debate.  The biggest overriding goal that I am interested in is that the role of government is to protect the rights of the people, nothing more and nothing less.  With that government positions will largely be powerless and volunteer (you must still work for a living). 


Offline MamaLiberty

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Re: Potential new FSW member with a twist
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2011, 06:01:06 AM »
My feedback: no thanks.
It's not that people are dumber, it's that stupidity used to be more painful.

Offline Bret

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Re: Potential new FSW member with a twist
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2011, 10:15:10 AM »
Freedom is not for everyone there are those that want a government layer to provide services for them.  I realize that many will not want to opt-out of all state laws and programs and opt-out of all federal programs and laws except 14 of the more serious crimes.  It can be scary to have to make it on your own where there is no government leader to follow.

That is ok though, when I set this up we will still be friendly to everyone else :)  Right now it is only a question of how large to make it.

Offline Terence

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Re: Potential new FSW member with a twist
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2011, 01:08:47 PM »
This could be as small as 160 acres for me and some friends or 12,000 acres for no more than 750 people (16 acres per person average to account for food and housing requirements).  A high population density makes it harder to fulfill the self-sufficiency requirement, although part could have a higher density, a town center with the bulk being farm/ranch land.

This kind of property can be found in Wyoming and owning it would be
a victory in itself on many fronts. Would conveying it into a BIA Trust
enable the inhabitants to be more free and/or the land more valuable?
Taxes and state interference can be minimized by other means, so, it's a matter
of comparing those other means with those of this particular trust.

Beyond that there's a comparison to be made between aggregating like-minded
people on the same contiguous parcel of land or having them in
the same general area of the country and connected philosophically.
The latter is more in the spirit of FSW, in my view, although WY can
certainly accommodate both, and almost any, approach.

I think it's a case of build it and they may come. In your case, Bret, you've
got the paperwork in place so building it simplifies to buying it. Not
that finding/buying a great piece of land like that is an easy task, by
any means. However, since the outcome is not certain I would think
you'd still want to vett the particular state and county where you purchased
irrespective of BIA trust interest, here (Something where the maximum
size of your constraints (12000) was contiguously available presenting its
own initial challenges). If chosen well the worst case scenario is that
you end up with some excellent land in what is probably the optimal
state for freedom irrespective of the terms of a particular land trust.
One seeking maximum freedom could do much worse.


Terence
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Offline Bret

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Re: Potential new FSW member with a twist
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2011, 02:03:53 PM »
Would conveying it into a BIA Trust enable the inhabitants to be more free and/or the land more valuable?
Taxes and state interference can be minimized by other means, so, it's a matter of comparing those other means with those of this particular trust.

There is also FAR less federal interference, for example there are only 14 federal laws, no more.  Well ok there is a legal caveat in Standing Bear v United States where Standing Bear used a gun to shoot and kill someone.  Murder is one of the 14 crimes so he was charged with that but was also given an additional 5 years under 18 USC 924(c)(1) "using a gun in a crime of violence", he appealed saying that it was not one of the 14 crimes the court (8th cir) said that because it was an "underlying felony" to one of the 14 that they could hook jurisdiction that way.  So the other laws apply if it is a component of one of the 14 crimes, so just dont do murder, arson, rape, kidnapping, etc and nothing to worry about :)

I am unsure that there are reasonable ways to avoid not just state taxes (sales, property, etc) but also federal income and payroll taxes.  With indian land there are a few legally available methods (although I plan on getting a tax lawyer before trying any of them out).  In general, as with most "tax avoidance" things you have to structure things ahead of time, such as buying a house to claim the interest as a deduction.  Tax avoidance is legal, tax evasion is not, I plan on sticking only with the avoidance stuff - claiming valid legitimate deductions and other methods of payment that are in fact legal.


Quote
Beyond that there's a comparison to be made between aggregating like-minded people on the same contiguous parcel of land or having them in the same general area of the country and connected philosophically.  The latter is more in the spirit of FSW, in my view, although WY can certainly accommodate both, and almost any, approach.

Well there are some limits on what I individually can do towards this end.  Someone else who has similar paper work as me (for reference only 30% or so of the Wind River reservation has this level of paperwork, it is not uncommon exactly but many dont - I know some people who refuse because of the governments history they dont want to be on any lists).  What I cannot do is a checkerboard of land here and there and everywhere.  So for that it has to be fairly contiguous.  That does not mean it has to be small, the 16 acre thing was a minimum based on calculations I have done on crop yields, grazing suitability, and general spacing between homes.  Last thing you want is one bad year to blow everything away, I also wanted a bit of surplus because I do not think subsistence farming is all that great and who doesnt want to be able to sell for profit?


I think it's a case of build it and they may come. In your case, Bret, you've got the paperwork in place so building it simplifies to buying it. Not that finding/buying a great piece of land like that is an easy task, by any means. However, since the outcome is not certain I would think you'd still want to vett the particular state and county where you purchased irrespective of BIA trust interest, here (Something where the maximum size of your constraints (12000) was contiguously available presenting its own initial challenges). If chosen well the worst case scenario is that you end up with some excellent land in what is probably the optimal state for freedom irrespective of the terms of a particular land trust.
[/quote]

Well the 12000 acres was only done because I saw some plots of land available that were that size (deeded).  I then divided by 16 to calculate the maximum number of people that could fit there given the above parameters.  The reality is that the state and county are asked but they do not get any vote in  the process.  BIA considers input and then uses some magic formula to decide if they are going to allow it or not.  That is not to say that it is guaranteed by any means and certainly a favorable opinion by the locals in the area and the county/state would go a long way.

As for building it the bigger problem is how large do I build it?  which is why I was asking if anyone was interested.  The more people the larger it must be.  I could have just built it on my own without saying anything to anyone but me and maybe my friends or family.  Since I do not want track homes dominating the area I do have to calculate how many people vs everything else.


The sweetest solution would be to find an investor to lay down money for land and wind generation in exchange for 50% of the wind business, as there are tax breaks for doing it that way it would be a win-win.  Businesses must be at least 50% owned natively to qualify for all the tax breaks (which could mean no taxes if properly structured).  I just dont know anyone with deep enough pockets to even pitch that to, although a multi-megawatt generation system would turn a pretty penny each month.  The land, generators and grid tie in would not be cheap though.

Offline MamaLiberty

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Re: Potential new FSW member with a twist
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2011, 06:36:09 AM »
Freedom is not for everyone there are those that want a government layer to provide services for them.  I realize that many will not want to opt-out of all state laws and programs and opt-out of all federal programs and laws except 14 of the more serious crimes.  It can be scary to have to make it on your own where there is no government leader to follow.

That is ok though, when I set this up we will still be friendly to everyone else :)  Right now it is only a question of how large to make it.

You misunderstand. I don't see any particular freedom, or increase in freedom in your proposition. I see it as the difference between a zoo and a "wild animal park." The animals at the "park" may well consider themselves more "free," but nothing has really changed except the size and design of the cage.

No thanks.
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Offline Paul Bonneau

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Re: Potential new FSW member with a twist
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2011, 11:57:18 AM »
Well, I agree in principle, and am not interested personally. However, let's not be too discouraging. I'd rather see more variety in the actions people take, trying to get free, than less of it. Who's to say what it can evolve into, over time? More power to Bret in my opinion, if he can get something going here.
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Offline Bret

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Re: Potential new FSW member with a twist
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2011, 12:06:51 PM »
Ultimately I want 100% sovereignty for that so there is nothing the community does not want, but that is not realistic at this time.  Tricky thing is that law abiding people, the ones who are that way more by nature than because there is a law against it, will not notice much difference.  If you never feel the desire to murder someone does a law against it really impede your freedom?  Most people therefore wont notice any real freedom change other than perhaps the lack of taxation.  Article 1 Section 2 Clause 3 and 14th amendment section 2 "except indians not taxed", when you fit into that somewhat narrow category apportionment is not supposed to count.  From what I have seen they do not exclude in census counts.  This means that those in the surrounding state could actually get a louder voice by having more people counted (technically indians on a reservation can be excluded from voting because they do not reside in the state, that almost never happens though and would probably cause a lot of yelling and screaming even though the constitution does not guarantee a right to vote it only provides reasons that may not be used to exclude you from voting). 

All in all I would much rather have representation without taxation than taxation without representation :D

Offline MamaLiberty

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Re: Potential new FSW member with a twist
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2011, 02:37:33 PM »
Well, I agree in principle, and am not interested personally. However, let's not be too discouraging. I'd rather see more variety in the actions people take, trying to get free, than less of it. Who's to say what it can evolve into, over time? More power to Bret in my opinion, if he can get something going here.

No discouragement meant at all. He asked for feedback... that's mine. What others might choose is their business, of course.
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Offline Sivispacemparabellum

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Re: Potential new FSW member with a twist
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2011, 07:26:22 PM »
I find the concept of the 'reservation' interesting, I also like the concept of community and unpaid government.  Does this mean that reservation police are 'volunteer'?  Or are the Feds the only law enforcement for the 14 laws listed?

I might be interested in the community aspect and being able to make income on the land that is not taxable, but I think I would still have to go 'off-site' for other income as well.

I will follow this thread with interest.
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Offline Bret

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Re: Potential new FSW member with a twist
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2011, 10:01:38 PM »
I find the concept of the 'reservation' interesting, I also like the concept of community and unpaid government.  Does this mean that reservation police are 'volunteer'?  Or are the Feds the only law enforcement for the 14 laws listed?

I had thought about that and while nothing is set in stone as right now its just thoughts and the original group that goes there would be the ones to decide many things I had thought of a need for volunteer police, much like volunteer fire.  They may do some training but they are called when needed.  The reason for this is there has to be someone trained in what the procedure is for certain things to avoid a more lynch mob type justice system.  Heat of the moment is a really bad time to try to figure things out.  Further a police force gives a point of contact, for example if someone wants to get a FFL (required if you want to import anything direct cause the other side of that transaction needs it) the ATF may need to get permission to come on the land (they have no jurisdiction per an FBI handbook for feds only BIA and FBI have any jurisdiction in anything without permission).

With that said the feds have jurisdiction for the listed crimes.  They can charge a native regardless of that person being charged by the tribal government (double jeopardy is deemed to only be from the same sovereign entity so a state and the feds can charge you for the same crime but they usually dont).  Any non-member gets handed over to them as non-members cant be tried by tribal courts because, per the supreme court, they did not consent to that government and the customs and rules may be different (that is non-member not non-indian they can be of another tribe or no tribe and they are a non-member). 

State and federal laws all apply to non-tribal members on indian land (as do a few special laws for non-members doing stuff to the tribe such as defacing, damaging or removing no hunting or tribal land border signs, etc).  In addition those laws apply when a tribal member and a non-member engage in something.  If its two members its just the 14 laws. 

A special case arises when it is a tribal member and non-member.  If the tribal member is charged in the tribal court for any crime that is not one of the 14 (remember all state and federal laws apply when non-members are involved) the feds cant prosecute due to a special law forbidding that prosecution.  While this could be abused to ensure low sentences all the time in general it is not.  It also should not ever be a problem, the only time that it would apply is if a non-member came to the land, perhaps to visit friends or family and someone did something to that person (remember the elements of this 1. tribal member must be at fault 2. must involve a non-member 3. must not be one of the 14 crimes) and I think that would be damn hard to do, you would actually have to exert effort to cause that situation to occur.

So in general, day to day life, there would be the mandatory FBI investigated crimes and no others that apply to "us" while visitors would have to follow every state and federal law.

This gets kinda complex with border/jurisdiction issues which is why there is a federal law enforcement training class that is 2.5 days on this topic.  Many indian police become federal agents under a BIA program because the only people that can buy a brand new post-1986 machine gun are feds, states or subdivisions of states and indian reservations are none of those things.  BIA has a deputy program to deputize indian tribal police as federal agents.  They dont have jurisdiction off the land but they are legally federal agents and as such able to get things they normally could not.  The NFA ban wording seems to be the largest single reason that federal deputization is done as they are then recognized by the law as being a government police force.

I probably confused this issue a lot more than I cleared it up.

Quote
I might be interested in the community aspect and being able to make income on the land that is not taxable, but I think I would still have to go 'off-site' for other income as well.

I believe that people should own their labor.  There is no profit added to their labor, it is a fair value trade for whatever is agreed upon as payment.  I do not understand the logic behind taxing it other than greed.  I do not however like tricks and scams or interpretations of law that require forcing the government to listen.  What I am trying to do is do this all based on clear reading of the law, IRS decisions, court decisions, etc.  Published stuff on record that does not require twisting.  Even the BIA.gov page states that indians may under the right circumstances be exempt from federal tax and while on tribal land are always exempt from state taxes because its not the state, legally its about the same as a state.  BIA.gov also states there are no requirements for being a tribal member and references cultural awareness or community affiliation as grounds to be counted as a member.  So again that is something that is a clear plain ordinary reading and not trying to be clever legally.

Offline Danl

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Re: Potential new FSW member with a twist
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2011, 10:06:41 PM »
Bret this is intriguing to me.......  I have seen the concept before in one form or another...  I wouldn't discourage you as you explore the possibilities...

I can't be the sugar daddy though. 

Best wishes,
and as always,

Regards, Danl ~W~
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Offline Danl

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Re: Potential new FSW member with a twist
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2011, 10:08:13 PM »
Bret,

Another quick thought......  This is called brainstorming. . .   Who knows one of these days we will surely break free somehow.....

Just keep it up.....  look for reasons why it CAN be made to work...

Regards, Danl ~W~
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 10:09:46 PM by Danl »
Alea iacta est, Molon Labe!
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