Author Topic: introduction and hello  (Read 20301 times)

Offline Brownhouse

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Re: introduction and hello
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2013, 12:59:40 PM »
This was an interesting thread.  I'm new here, but I've actually thought about a lot of these things since I've started considering a move to Wyoming.  My current career in IT probably wouldn't fly in Wyoming, but I'm thankful to have many skills that would suffice as back-up options.  I will say this, I don't inherently feel that working for the government precludes one from being a "libertarian-minded person", unless one feels the government is inherently immoral.  But wouldn't that make one more of an Anarchist than a Libertarian?  Even the staunchest Libertarians would concede that the government has some legitimate functions, heck, there are even Libertarian politicians.  Anarchists, that's a different story.  But to my point, unless you feel there is a moral dilemma separating your career from your personal views, we all have to make a living, and I don't feel that career choice necessarily has to be something that you'd pursue as a hobby outside of work.  If it works out for you that way, that's great, but if you make a living doing something that you aren't crazy about, but which isn't morally wrong, then I'd guess you're in the vast majority.  This is of course just my opinion.
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Offline MamaLiberty

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Re: introduction and hello
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2013, 01:16:56 PM »
I don't inherently feel that working for the government precludes one from being a "libertarian-minded person", unless one feels the government is inherently immoral. 

Not unless you recognize that "taxes" are theft, and thereby immoral.  I'm not a "libertarian" either, nor an "anarchist." I am a self owner and self governor. That is true "government," in voluntary association and cooperation with others who do not practice aggression against others.
It's not that people are dumber, it's that stupidity used to be more painful.

Offline Brownhouse

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Re: introduction and hello
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2013, 01:34:13 PM »
Ok, I see where you're coming from.  I don't know if I'm in complete agreement, but I would agree to a large extent.  Some things come to mind that the government does purchase via taxes, such as roads and bridges, border fences and security, armed forces to protect against invasion, primary education, I'd be curious to know your thoughts on sources for funding of these things.  Import levies?  Again, this is in the spirit of discussion, NOT an attempt to be argumentative.  :)
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Offline MamaLiberty

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Re: introduction and hello
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2013, 01:57:33 PM »
Ok, I see where you're coming from.  I don't know if I'm in complete agreement, but I would agree to a large extent.  Some things come to mind that the government does purchase via taxes, such as roads and bridges, border fences and security, armed forces to protect against invasion, primary education, I'd be curious to know your thoughts on sources for funding of these things.  Import levies?  Again, this is in the spirit of discussion, NOT an attempt to be argumentative.  :)

How about voluntary association and the free market? (which we don't have right now, unfortunately) :) I don't think theft is necessary to build roads any more than it is to build anything else people need and want. Without a central and involuntary government to build roads, do you imagine that people would want them and then do without them? People are endlessly creative and enterprising, actually, even when left strictly to their own devices. :)

Just for example:  Education is morally the responsibility of the parents/families, welcoming the voluntary assistance of anyone in the community who feels they want to donate or assist. Many millions of children were educated this way before the Prussians took over. And many hundreds of thousands of them are educated this way now.  There is zero justification for theft or involuntary government control.

Would it be perfect? Of course not. Is it perfect now? Of course not. :) Nothing is going to be perfect, but turning away from theft and coercion couldn't help but be better.
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Offline tenacio

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Re: introduction and hello
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2013, 02:03:37 PM »
Ok, I see where you're coming from.  I don't know if I'm in complete agreement, but I would agree to a large extent.  Some things come to mind that the government does purchase via taxes, such as roads and bridges, border fences and security, armed forces to protect against invasion, primary education, I'd be curious to know your thoughts on sources for funding of these things.  Import levies?  Again, this is in the spirit of discussion, NOT an attempt to be argumentative.  :)

I’ve thought a lot about all this, too.  I try to see things from MamaLiberty’s perspective whenever I examine any issue.  As for roads and bridges, education, and I’ll add hunting laws and regulations, the ideal libertarian position is (I believe), all property is privately owned.  Hence, he or she who owns the road or bridge would maintain it, or not, at their own discretion.  I finally realized the hunting question is simple, too.  He or she who owns the land, owns the livestock on it.  Once a creature crosses over to the neighbor’s property, that neighbor now owns it.  Education is (theoretically) simple as well; all education is the responsibility of the parents, period.  It would take a generation (at least) to implement societal changes of such a magnitude, and we would have the vast majority of sheeple continuing to want their entitlements and the Government to protect them and be their nanny.
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Offline Steve C.

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Re: introduction and hello
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2013, 02:54:09 PM »
Question:

If I shoot a deer on land I have permission to hunt on, and the deer jumps over a fence to someone else's land am I out of luck? I know the happy answer is work it out with the other landowner, but if the other land owner says thanks for the fresh meat and takes it home am I out of luck? Are they stealing? Who gets to decide? How is that decision enforced?
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Offline Brownhouse

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Re: introduction and hello
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2013, 03:19:04 PM »
Ok, it's getting clearer, thank you Mama.  I do agree that people are enterprising, and I am a firm believer in the free market.  I will just have to spend some time considering the ways in which I have become or always have been complacent, and adapt to a more self-reliant lifestyle.  Here is an interesting observation: there is much less need for self-reliance in an area like Illinois, but also much less ability to prepare for the need for self-reliance in a more rural setting.  The government here takes massive taxes, but also "provides" certain "benefits", but these benefits can't necessarily be opted out of, they are "forced" benefits, if this makes any sense.  I have the benefits of natural gas, sewers, city water and garbage pickup.  If I wanted to put in an oil burner, a septic system, drill a well and get rid of my garbage, I wouldn't be allowed to, because the oil burner, the septic system, the well, and burning my garbage would be illegal, and there's no dump or transfer station to speak of.  We're essentially "offered" these "benefits" here, which we aren't allowed to refuse ha ha.  Some benefits.  Anyway, my family does have rural property up north, so these concepts aren't foreign to me.  To most people in Chicago though, I'm sure they would be.  Anyway, it's a good conversation with a beneficial outcome.  Thanks again.
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Offline MamaLiberty

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Re: introduction and hello
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2013, 03:21:03 PM »
Question:

If I shoot a deer on land I have permission to hunt on, and the deer jumps over a fence to someone else's land am I out of luck? I know the happy answer is work it out with the other landowner, but if the other land owner says thanks for the fresh meat and takes it home am I out of luck? Are they stealing? Who gets to decide? How is that decision enforced?

Yep, you just have to work it out. Discussion, arbitration, probably several other options. Also probably unlikely to be a problem unless the two neighbors were feuding already... and then you probably wouldn't have been hunting so close to the line anyway.

In this case, probably not the end of the world as you can shoot another deer. There are very few guarantees in life, even in a free world. :) I'd also say,  next time make a better shot so the deer doesn't go anywhere. <big grin>

Why do we so often think someone else has to fix things like this for us anyway?
It's not that people are dumber, it's that stupidity used to be more painful.

Offline Brownhouse

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Re: introduction and hello
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2013, 03:37:55 PM »
From my personal experience, bad neighbors are people who have a lack of respect for their neighbors.  May sound simplistic, but I think it's pretty profound.  If you have respect for your neighbors, and they have respect for you, then no one is taking advantage of the other, no one feels put upon, and there are no problems.  I have a bad neighbor.  I'm sure he'd say that I'm a bad neighbor too, but I'm not.  He has encroached on my property, trimmed brush that was on my side of the property line, and dumped waste on my property.  This was after I lent him tools and gave him some fill for free.  My reason for, I suppose you could say "wanting someone else to fix it", is because he is a serial offender.  He does it constantly, no matter what I say to him, and he now no longer speaks to me.  The next time he pulls one of his stunts, I can't really take the law into my own hands, I don't want it to escalate into an actual war, I just want it to stop.  So I'll call the police, they'll talk to him, he'll continue to hate me, and I'll continue to treat him with the respect that he will then have been forced to treat me with.  I 100% agree that we should try to resolve our own disputes, but sometimes we have to deal with people who don't have the same respect for others that is shown to them.

Unfortunately, in the deer scenario, if the owner was unwilling to let me take the deer, I'd have to abide by that, as the deer is technically on his property.  Out of respect, I'd ask, and out of respect, I'd hope he'd let me take it.
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Offline MamaLiberty

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Re: introduction and hello
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2013, 03:58:28 PM »
My reason for, I suppose you could say "wanting someone else to fix it", is because he is a serial offender.  He does it constantly, no matter what I say to him, and he now no longer speaks to me.  The next time he pulls one of his stunts, I can't really take the law into my own hands, I don't want it to escalate into an actual war, I just want it to stop.  So I'll call the police, they'll talk to him, he'll continue to hate me, and I'll continue to treat him with the respect that he will then have been forced to treat me with.  I 100% agree that we should try to resolve our own disputes, but sometimes we have to deal with people who don't have the same respect for others that is shown to them.

Well, this is exactly the problem with the current situation. You are effectively, forcefully prevented from doing much to fix it yourself. And that's especially true in a big city. I'm talking about how things might be dealt with differently, absent the "fixers" who claim an absolute monopoly on the process... in a truly free country - which most of us can barely imagine as possible. Many of our disagreements stem from that difficulty, and confusion of the statist status quo now with the possibility of actually being free to fix it ourselves.

Let's just say that a bad neighbor would have a lot more incentive to become a better one if the rest of the good neighbors worked together to refuse to trade with him, deny him goods and services they provide in a free market, and backed you up if this bad neighbor trespassed on your land or initiated force in some way.

Somehow, I can't quite picture the visit by some cops as creating any respect in this guy for you... but then, I don't know him. He might turn out to be an OK guy himself in a really free society. But no guarantees, remember. :)
It's not that people are dumber, it's that stupidity used to be more painful.

Offline Brownhouse

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Re: introduction and hello
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2013, 04:11:26 PM »
You're absolutely right, I don't think anything will cause this guy to respect me, I don't think he really respects anybody.  (He has a thing with tree limbs, they always walk over to my property.  We had a silent battle with one particularly large branch, it eventually ended up in the neighbor's lot on the OTHER side of him ha ha)  Anyway, as long as he stays off my property and doesn't cut things down or dump on it, that's all I care about.  As for trading with others, again you're right, if he was forced to deal with others, he would quickly see the error of his ways.  But instead, he just collects his government check and keeps to himself ha ha.  What a great system...just kidding.
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Offline RaisedByWolves

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Re: introduction and hello
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2013, 05:22:36 PM »
Speaking of bad neighbors, i recently have multiple new neighbors that moved here from out of state. They are coincidentally both aggressivly for a police state. I asked them why they decided to move to rural Wyoming, and their response was something along the lines of "republican talk shows told me to". I am almost completely disconnected from thd media, so maybe people on this forum already know about the talk show suggestion.
In my experience, these people are the worst neighbors. Anybody else having new big government radicals move to their neighborhood in Crook County?
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Offline BAR BAR 2

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Re: introduction and hello
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2013, 05:37:50 PM »
Speaking of bad neighbors, i recently have multiple new neighbors that moved here from out of state. They are coincidentally both aggressivly for a police state. I asked them why they decided to move to rural Wyoming, and their response was something along the lines of "republican talk shows told me to". I am almost completely disconnected from thd media, so maybe people on this forum already know about the talk show suggestion.
In my experience, these people are the worst neighbors. Anybody else having new big government radicals move to their neighborhood in Crook County?

I have personally stopped encouraging others to move here. Not that I dont want other freedom minded indviduals here, it is that I dont want to encourage follower types. If I have to prompt and prod a person and they act on my suggestion, they are just as likely to follow the wishes of another who may not have true freedom in mind.

If a person has any sense, they will ask questions and determine on their own if this is the right place for them. If they need someone to talk them into it though, they may not be the best fit.

Tex
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Offline wybhroots

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Re: introduction and hello
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2013, 06:01:26 PM »

If a person has any sense, they will ask questions and determine on their own if this is the right place for them. If they need someone to talk them into it though, they may not be the best fit.

Tex

That is sound truth. 

I recently had a discussion with a friend about why we are considering moving to Wyoming and thought they may have some interest in learning more about a free state as well.  Even though we share similar  beliefs, it still comes down to each individual.  Also, my husband and I have come to the decision that if one of us doesn't want to or doesn't feel right about a move, then we won't force the move.  We will continue our journey together until we both have the same convictions about a place.

As for the talk show that told the new neighbors to move to rural Wyoming......not sure which that would be, but we are aware of a few radio stations that mention moving to states where like-minded people would be. 

~Amy
“It's no wonder that truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to make sense.”-Mark Twain

Offline Brownhouse

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Re: introduction and hello
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2013, 07:55:13 PM »
I've been listening to conservative talk radio for years, I haven't heard anyone urging people to move anywhere.  I've heard some talk about people moving out of California, that's about it.  What sort of things are your new neighbors talking about, RasiedByWolves?  It's too bad they didn't prepare better for their new environment, but it would seem they'll either adapt pretty quickly, or realize that they made a mistake and move on.
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