Wyotour with Wyomiles Part one

[wyomiles]

 Wyoming Road Trip
Miles Flansburg
Thu, 15 Dec 2005
Here is my version of a "round trip of Wyoming" which I sent to A Wyoming free stater, who was making the trip by car in the winter. I have updated it to be more useful to a summer driver. I have also added links to useful sites. Thanks to everyone  who took the time to put all of these sites together !!!

Everyone, please feel free to fill in the blanks (and correct my mistakes) and maybe between us all we can put together a really nice "Travel guide" for future reference. There seems to be more people needing this trip advice!
 Thanks, Miles

 Note: I am using the Wyoming Atlas and Gazetteer (as a reference) by DeLorme Mapping, PO Box 298, Freeport, Maine 04032, 207-865-4171. They have maps for several states and I have worn two of them out over the last 15 years. I picked mine up at Wal-mart. (http://www.delorme.com) 

I lived in Wyoming for 27 years and moved to Colorado in 2000 following my work. I own land on the Western side of Wyoming and am hoping to retire there as soon as my children graduate from high school.

 I am sure you will find lots of help on your tour from others on the WFS forum, especially those who are already in Wyoming. Many of them have left open invitations to visit their homes.  If you make a specific request to meet with others a week or two before you actually go , I am sure those on the list, already in Wyoming, would love to meet you.
I am more familiar with the Western and Southern halves of Wyoming so others will be able to help with the North and East. Following is my advice, for what it is worth. 
 
I am not sure how much experience you and yours have with the cold so I will give this advice, whenever and where ever you go in Wyoming, in the winter months, always prepare for the worst case. I have traveled many days in the winter with sunshine and dry roads and I have been caught in blizzards for hours, you just never know,so fill your trunk with a "survival" kit. Think food and drink and warmth. If you have winter clothing such as ski pants, coats, hats, scarves, gloves, long johns, etc. bring them.  Summer touring is a little more forgiving. I lived two miles from the South gate of Yellowstone for a couple of years and I remember waking up to a couple inches of snow in the middle of July. Again be prepared. You will probably see more rain than snow and wind is common.  But for the most part the weather in summer is wonderful.

If you rent your vehicle at an airport ask the rental place if there is a shovel and chains in the car. You may not need
them and they may not supply them but it wouldn't hurt to ask. You may also want to stop at a store and stock up before you leave the big city. Always keep your gas tank full. When you get to 1/2 tank think about where the next gas station is.

The FSW members have already had a discussion in the merits of 4 wheel drive VS. front W.D. Etc. It can be found in the archives, I believe. I assume you will be on major roads for most of your trip so you really should not need 4 W.D. Wyoming is extremely prepared for bad weather so the roads are generally plowed and the highway patrol is always around to help out (http://dot.state.wy.us).  The general population is usually very willing to help out a stranger in trouble and if you approach most folks in a kind way you will usually receive a kind reply. If you are really adventurous you can do :
a bicycle trip http://www.cyclewyoming.org
or motorbike http://www.geocities.com/abateofwyoming_2000/
or what the heck http://www.wagonsacrosswyoming.com/

If I haven't scared you off so far lets talk about the drive. You have many options depending on what you want to see and what point of entry you use. I will chart a course from Salt Lake City and make a loop back. If you are coming from Colorado or Montana, etc. join the trip below at the appropriate place.


THE TRIP :

As you look at your map. (BTW be sure you have a good map in the car or motorcycle) start at S.L.C. and travel east on Interstate 80. There are many state rest areas all along I 80, very nice.
 For lots of links :  http://usroadconditions.com/wy.shtml
Until you get to Wyo. you will be traveling in the Uinta mountains, beautiful area. Ski country, camping ,hiking. http://www.utahwild.com/mountains/uintas/index.shtml
Your first Wyoming town will be Evanston. http://www.etownchamber.com  Average Wyo town with most "civilized" amenities. There is a rest area in Evanston, which will be at the Eastern entrance to town, it has an info center where you will be able to get maps and tourist guides. You could start gathering newspapers here if you would like. In the summer they have a buffalo herd out back, I'm not sure about in winter.

Also on your map you will see entrances from Idaho via. Wyo.Highways 30,89,26 and 22. These will be two lane roads and pass through several small communities, mostly farming and retirees. Highway 30 going East will go through Kemmerer (http://www.kemmerer.org/)  the home of JC Penney's stores. You can go north on 189 past Fontenelle Reservoir, named after a fur trapper of the 1800's. Through La Barge, Big Piney, Marbleton and Daniel, all small towns, and join another route at Pinedale (discussed below).All of these towns are in Sublette county. http://www.sublette.com
 Highway 89/26 travels through a nice farming area and on into Jackson.

Traveling further east on I-80, from Evanston ,you will start to notice the landscape changing into a large windy plain filled with sagebrush. Most of the Southern ? of Wyo. is like this. You are traveling in Sweetwater County (http://www.tourwyoming.com/).  Several smaller towns will appear between Evanston and Green River. Also a Little America truck stop if you need a break. http://littleamerica.com/  Around this area you will also notice several large manufacturing facilities and mines. These are the major employer for a 100 miles around. Think baking soda and you will know what it is they mine here. http://www.wma-minelife.com/trona/tronmine/data0000.htm  One of my favorite small Wyoming towns is Fort Bridger. The fort is a reconstruction of a mountain man era trading post which latter became a US military fort. Every Labor day they have a mountain man rendezvous. It is a great time if you are in the area. http://www.fortbridgerrendezvous.net/

 Green River, City, is in a small canyon created by the Green River.
Average town, bedroom community for the mines. http://www.grchamber.com/  This is where Major Powell set off on his journey to explore the Colorado river system. http://www.wyomingtalesandtrails.com/photos4.html Turn up the music!

A large reservoir called Flaming Gorge is south of here. Rock Springs is 15 more miles east and is your first "large" city. Many motels , major chains. Make reservations if this is your first overnight stay. (about 4 hours from S.L.C.) They are in the middle of an oil and gas boom right now so most hotels fill up quickly. Lots of construction & gas field jobs here. Rock springs is the home of 56 nationalities so is very diverse. Good infrastructure, stores etc. If you have time the hospital and the college are on the same hill in the center of town, ask for directions. The college has some dinosaurs and a pretty nice tech area. R.S. also has a "world class" recreation center in town, if you need to stretch out after a long drive and a very nice museum. Rock springs is a fairly desolate looking city but if you live there a while it grows on you. http://www.city-data.com/city/Rock-Springs-Wyoming.html   Just north of Rock springs is where you will find the Killpecker Dune fields. http://www.wy.blm.gov/rsfo/rec/dunes.html
These are some of the largest moving dunes in the U.S. The name comes from the ability of the local water supplies to cause
undesirable effects to ones man hood. There are several dirt roads into this country and the most used is called Chilton Road. It leaves highway 191 just north of R.S. As you head for the dunes you will see "Boars tusk?, which is, what is left of one of the ancient volcanoes that created the area. There are signs along this road and developed parking areas. This valley is at the base of the White mountain. (More of a long bluff) There are many layers of fossil fish and shells as well as large ancient coral reefs here ,proving that, had we been here earlier ,we would have had some nice beach front property.
This area was also home to many native American tribes and there are several areas with petroglyphs but you may need a local to help you find some of these things. For a geological loop tour try this -- http://www.csc.edu/geoscience/ipg/IPGloop4.html
The dunes are home of the last plains elk herd in America. (elk were from the plains until we drove them into the hills) There are some huge bulls here. This area is very remote and if you get off the road you usually get buried in sand. Another interesting note about these dunes is that as they move with the wind they bury snow. There are places where the buried snow is hundreds of years old and local scientists are studying the water and life in this old snow. Anyway a good topo map or the DeLorme I spoke of earlier would help you explore this area.

 At R.S. you have a choice to go North towards Jackson or continue East to Rawlins. I will take you on a loop tour from here and you can go either way and return back to Rock Springs. So lets go North on Highway 191. And enter Sublette county http://www.sublette.com/  You will still be in a great basin of sagebrush until you see the Windriver maintains in the distance. Keep an eye out for herds of antelope. You may also see wild horses, which at one time belonged to the Spanish conquistadors and any number of native american tribes.  You will come to a couple of small farming communities on this highway. Eden and Farson. These were depression era Government projects. The government gave land to anyone who would settle here. There are a couple of reservoirs to the east which supply all of the irrigation for these farms.  In the summer this area is lush and green.  If you like ice cream and need a break, be sure to take a few minutes to stop in at the Farson store and buy an ice cream cone, be careful, a small is the biggest cone you have ever had and a large will feed a family. In fact the Farson store is the third largest distributor of Farr?s ice cream in the nation! And here is some more fun for the kids. http://www.wyoming4kids.org/learn/didyouknow.php
At Farson there is another highway headed East, HW 28, this will take you over the Windriver mountains and down into Lander. Over South Pass and along the Oregon trail. The road North goes into Pinedale, (where my land is ), and on to Jackson. Your choice of direction will depend on how much time you are allotting for your trip and whether or not you want to experience Jackson or Yellowstone. Remember you are moving to Wyoming so you will have the rest of your lives to explore.
If you do go North you will be entering more mountainous country and in the winter, up to 8 feet of snow ,so be sure to know what the weather is up to.  Also when you leave  Jackson you will go towards the Grand Tetons and then make a loop back south to a small town called Dubois then back into Lander. So the Northern route brings you full circle back to Lander anyway. Or after Jackson you travel north at Moran Junction into Yellowstone country. Yellowstone Park highways are closed in the winter. The park, however, is open to snowmobiles etc. So you can't drive your car past the South Gate of the park. I actually prefer Yellowstone in the winter. It is a beautiful place year around but winter is a lot more primitive. When planning a trip through Yellowstone you need to think first about the crowds. Most people visit Jackson and Yellowstone as a family activity, which means anytime school is out is the time you will have the crowds. If you plan on staying the night in Yellowstone be sure to get reservations months if not years in advance. Yellowstone is John Coulter country. Amazing displays of the power of mother nature. The animals are wild, even though many people, for some reason, believe that since they are in a park they are domesticated. Be prepared to stop at any time, and watch as you go around corners. Tourists will stop in the middle of the road, jump out of their cars, run the kids out into a herd of elk or buffalo and even bear and take pictures. Crazy stuff!  There are several entrances to Yellowstone depending on what state you are coming from. http://www.yellowstonepark.com  We will continue our journey out of the park to the East and into Cody later. (see below)

[wyomiles]

Backing up to Farson and Eden, the next town North is Pinedale. Pinedale is a small town, the real estate market is exploding for two reasons, there is a gas boom in progress in the area and you will have already seen evidence of the drilling on the plains, secondly the billionaires in Jackson have forced the poor millionaires to move in around Pinedale. (See the Sublette county link above) The Windriver mountains are beautiful and provide hundreds of miles of trails and hundreds of lakes . If you want to get away from it all , packing or riding into these mountains will give you nights with so many stars you will think you have been blasted into space, a quiet so quiet you will start talking to yourself just to be sure you haven't gone deaf, and there are places in these hills where you will not see another soul for weeks at a time.  Can you tell the Windies are my favorite place on earth ? A nice side trip is just North of Pinedale on Highway 352, through Cora, up the Green River valley and on to the Green River Lakes. A beautiful drive although it is dirt road for about 20 miles. To the south of the lakes sits Square top Mountain which is one of the Wyoming "poster children" A nice place to camp and some great fishing in a boat. http://www.windriverrange.org/photos.htm

Jackson is a tourist and ski Mecca. It is a beautiful place to visit. http://www.jacksonholenet.com/  If you bypass Yellowstone and head South at Moran Junction you will end up in Dubois. Dubois is a pretty nice little town and has a nice Big Horn Sheep museum. People are also discovering this area and it is growing. This link -- http://www.windrivercountry.com -- covers many of the towns and attractions in this area.
Anyway back on the road to Lander , You would have arrived here after moving South from Dubois or North East out of Farson on highway 28. Hy 28 is a drive over South Pass which was the Oregon trails crossing of the continental divide. If you take a side trip into South Pass City and Atlantic City you will find a couple of living Wyoming Ghost towns. Atlantic City has a wonderful 5 star restaurant called the Miners Delight, believe it or not.( And it is for sale!)
There is also a side trip on a dirt road on the opposite side of the HW  which takes you through the forest and to "Sinks Canyon". Here the Popo Agie (po-po-ja) river sinks underground, disappearing from site. It does come up latter and it?s fun for us kids. It is easier to get to from the Lander side on HW 131.
  Lander is a nice average Wyoming town. At first glance it may not look like much but there are a lot of millionaires here too.  I have not been on this side of the mountains for years but I always liked Lander. Stop at their chamber and collect any info you can. Lander sits in sort of a "banana belt" and always seemed to be warmer than any other spot in Wyo for some reason. http://www.landerwyoming.org/
Between Lander and Riverton is a Blink of a town called Hudson. There are two really good restaurants here so check them out. (See the Windriver country website above.)

Next we will travel to Riverton and Shoshone This is home to the Windriver Indian reservation. Somewhere here you will see signs showing the way to the resting place of Sacagawea the Shoshone woman who saved the Lewis and Clark expedition more than once. The Shoshone (Show-show-nay) tribe has a really nice interpretive center, may not be a winter activity but nice to visit in the summer. Recently I have heard that the Native Americans are also planning on building a casino. This should be a boom for the local area if anyone is looking for an opportunity. http://shoshone.us/shoshone-resources-p13.html
 
If you drive East from Shoshoni on HW 20/26, you will be headed towards interstate highway 25 and Casper . You may want to go North and see Sheridan or Buffalo as this will lead you into the North East corner of the state. I have not been to these cities for many years but I believe they are fairly good sized (for Wyoming) and should have most amenities of civilization. As you head North from Shoshoni on highway 20, you will travel past Boysen Reservoir, through The Windriver Canyon ,and into Thermopolis. There are already FSW participants here so you may want to plan on spending some time with them and getting the scoop about this area. I am not to familiar with this area except for the hot springs which are really nice. http://www.townofthermopolis.com/ As you come out of the canyon there use to be a little mom and pop restaurant that served the biggest hamburger on the face of the earth. The first time we stopped there we did not know this and ordered two burgers with all the fixins, when the waitress brought them out the cook followed her and we all had a good laugh.
When you leave Thermop, heading north, you have two ways to get to Cody, stay on HW 20 or go on HW 120. Lets go to Greybull on HW 20 Which also goes through Worland, the site of the 2006 WFS JAM. http://www.worlandchamber.com/
 
 At Greybull (http://www.greybull.com/destination.htm) you have a choice to make , you can go West to Cody or East to Buffalo, or North to Lovell. The road to Cody will take you through several Average Wyo. towns that again ,I don't know much about. Cody is named after Buffalo Bill Cody and his home is here and I believe may be open for tours ? Buffalo Bill Cody Ranch, ??,  Cody is also home to the Buffalo Bill Cody museum, Remington art museum, and one of the largest collections of firearms in the country. If not this trip , then some other time, this is an absolute must see. http://www.codychamber.org/ 
I am not to familiar with Powell, http://www.powellchamber.org/history.htm,
Lovell , http://townoflovell.com/
or Sheridan http://www.sheridanwyomingchamber.org/
so others will have to fill in the blanks here.
 
 
Your ultimate goal is to travel east to Gillette and on to the Crook County area targeted by Boston T. Party. There are several FSW residents in place here and they will be happy to see you and give you better info on the area than I. If you are going during the great motorcycle migration to Sturgis you just stay on I-90 East. Gillette is in the middle of a long boom cycle. There is lots of  activity here and many Jobs. Much of the work here is industrial   There are some who say that in the future , Gillette will be the largest city in Wyoming. http://www.jnlcom.com/_comm/imagesgillettewy/index.html

This area has the Devils tower, the Black hills, and Keyhole reservoir and the vore buffalo jump. http://www.newyoming.com/crookcounty.htm
When you get done exploring the area and visiting with other FSW'ers ask if you should double back to Buffalo or head South to Newcastle  http://www.newcastlewyo.com/ and Lusk on HW 16/85. Your goal here is to get to Casper but the roads to Lusk or Buffalo will be totally different.
 
Casper is a college town and is a relatively nice place.(In my experience) They have lots of cultural activities including a summer folk music festival that is really nice. They are home of the" Casper Star Tribune " which is "Wyoming's newspaper" Check out their local web sites for lots of info on the area. http://www.casperwyoming.org/
From here you will travel South down I-25 to Cheyenne , The capitol of the state. Along the way you will pass Glendo and Guersey Reservoirs and Wheatland. http://www.wheatlandwy.com/  At Lusk you can also travel South on Highway 85 to
Torrington http://www.city-of-torrington.org/ then Cheyenne.

Cheyenne is the gate way to Denver from Wyo.  and many people live here who commute each day to the Denver area. Of coarse this is a political town, with everything that accompanies that. It is also home to a large Air force base, Francis Warren AFB. Cheyenne also hosts the Cheyenne Frontier Days rodeo. and is a pretty big deal. I prefer the small town rodeos myself. http://www.cheyenne.org/. There is another nice rest stop and tourist info place on I-25 just south of Cheyenne headed to Denver.

From here you get on Interstate 80 again and head West to Laramie. This road can be treacherous in the winter so get a road report before you begin. You will be climbing up over a mountain range here. There is a nice rest area at the summit. If you like to climb or need a nice picnic area take a side trip into Vedauwoo (VEE-da-voo) http://www.teamarp.com/Wyoming/vedauwoo/Vedauwoo.htm.

Down the hill and into Laramie http://www.laramie-tourism.org/) which is the home of the University of Wyoming. http://www.uwyo.edu/  Laramie also is home to the state technical college. http://www.wyotech.com/  Mostly for auto tech I think, but if you're interested you could check it out.
The rest of your trip is a straight shot West back to Salt Lake City on Interstate 80. Outside of Laramie you will cross over the Elk mountains. This road is also treacherous so be careful. Many times they close the interstate here and reroute travelers around through Medicine Bow a very small town so be prepared. http://www.medicinebow.org  I-80 has many rest areas it's entire length.
 If you have time and wish to avoid the interstate you can take a couple of scenic detours. The first is North out of Laramie on Highway 30/287. this goes around Elk Mountain and goes through a couple of small towns. Another route would be South West from Laramie on Hiways 230/70/789 a very nice ride through the southern mountains called the
Medicine Bows. And the Snowy range. Many little towns along the way. The town of Encampment that has a little museum that is really nice, check it out. http://www.wyomingcarboncounty.com/html/encampment.html
If you use this route you can bypass Rawlins or take 71 North to get into Rawlins.

Rawlins is another average town.  There is a large Sinclair refinery east of town and the state penitentiary is here also. http://www.rawlins-wyoming.com/ The road from here to Rock springs is long and desolate so keep awake. Several small gas boom towns along the way and as you approach Rock springs several large coal strip mines and a coal fired power plant.
 
This is a huge trip and depending on how much ground you want to cover you may not want to do it all. Many FSW folks are picking a spot to base themselves, and renting for a while so they can establish residency and then take their time to explore their options as far as a permanent residence.  I took this tact when I moved to Colorado and it worked out well for me. Remember to try and make reservations ahead of time as the "booms" and tourism, in Wyoming have many hotels full. I have not given you to much info on mileage and travel times but you can generally figure slower speeds if the weather is bad. ( There are links in some of the above web sites that would give you travel mileage)
 
 Well I probably haven't covered everything so ask any specific questions you might have of me.  Wyoming is truly the nicest place I
have ever been and once you get settled and get the lay of the land you will discover true freedom.   

Miles
 
 

[Boston]

Wow, Miles, what a great Wyotour!
Thanks so much for posting it!

Boston

[wyomiles]

Your welcome. I hope others will find some good info in there. Lots of links. Miles

[bob gathercole]

in light of the consistently negative comments expressed on this forum and in this post about my community I don't understand why fsw invites people from teton county to join. I read this "tour" carefully: my community is the only one portrayed in a negative fashion. No one, including the owner of this forum, seems to find this worthy of comment.
if I were to post a similar 'tour' and include negative comments, say, about the rampant meth problem in Gillette, or anything along those lines, I'm sure there would be a reaction.
if you don't want members from my neck of the woods, in the interest of preserving your sense of integrity I think you should state this clearly.
save the posts about taxes, etc. this area has problems. so do yours. this area is also the home to thousands of working people who live and raise their families by the principles you folks talk about.

[MamaLiberty]

Bob, why not rather give a detailed description of your area and the people you are talking about - warts and all?

Others are writing about their experiences and personal impressions. Why not do the same yourself? ML

[Boston]

Bob, sorry that you've the misimpression that we don't "want"
folks in Teton County.  For me, at least, it's just not true.

From a new resident point of view, it's an extremely expensive county
to choose, as only 2% of the land is privately owned.

If the benefits of living there outweigh the costs, you would
be poised to convince us of that, and I urge you to do so.

this area is also the home to thousands of working people who live and raise their families by the principles you folks talk about.

I'd like to read about them here.

Boston

[/color]

[bob gathercole]

I am not under any misapprehension- the insults are real.
It is not up to me to counter these attacks. If I were doing the same about other parts of the state it would not be tolerated.
whether or not it is easy for new folks to live here is not the point.

[Don Wills]

I am not under any misapprehension- the insults are real.
It is not up to me to counter these attacks. If I were doing the same about other parts of the state it would not be tolerated.
whether or not it is easy for new folks to live here is not the point.

To Bob,

I would send this to you as a private email, but you don't have an email address associated with
your FSW identity, so this is the only way I can contact you.? I have been a resident of Jackson
Hole for one year now.? I love the area and plan to stay.? I connnected with the FSW folks through
this forum and at the 2006 Jamboree.? After being ostracized for my moderate political persuasion
(I'm not an anarchist like many here, particularly the loudest), I decided that posting on the
FSW forums is a waste of time.? Yes there is a party line which includes being anti-Teton county,
and being anarchist.

Since I live in Teton County and I'm not an anarchist, I decided not to participate with the FSW
folks any more.? I just don't fit their mold.? I still lurk here because there are a few good people
who make informative posts about Wyoming, but overall I would say you are just wasting your
virtual breath posting here.

I live out near the airport, and I'm in the phone book, so if you would like to have a beer
some time to talk about the beauty of Teton county or moderate libertarianism or whatever,
feel free to contact me.

Don Wills

[Boston]

from Bob:

I don't understand why fsw invites people from teton county to join. I read this "tour" carefully: my community is the only one portrayed in a negative fashion. No one, including the owner of this forum, seems to find this worthy of comment.

Gee, it was one man's opinion about one area.
It was the only snub of Teton County in the entire Forum that I've read.

Beyond that it was not worthy of my comment, else I'd have to comment
on everybody's singular opinions about every little thing.

I don't understand what seems to be this overly sensitive attitude of Bob's
about Teton County criticism.  (Maybe there were more insults bandied about
than I was aware of, but if so, he could have PMed me about them.)

If I were doing the same about other parts of the state it would not be tolerated.

This implies some kind of favoritism on my part, which simply
does not exist regarding insults on our Forum.

Bob was well liked at our shoots, and is a competent Rifleman.
I wish him well, and he's welcome at our future shooting events, as well as here.

___________
Chill was strenuously disagreed with by some, and thus
he decided to reduce his presence on the Forum.

This is a much different matter than being "ostracized."

Boston
[/color]

[wyomiles]

WOW, I want to apologize to Bob and Don and all of the other folks who live in Jackson and Teton County !!

I wrote up this tour from my perspective, I also said that anyone else could help me with anything that I left out or got wrong.

Let me tell you all that I personally enjoyed sharing my JAM campfire with Chill in 06 and I am sure I would enjoy sharing it with Bob in 07 if he choses to attend.

Bob I have very little positive to say about Jackson hole because of the way I and my family were treated there. You have no idea what we went through there and I could have been much more vile , believe me. I am glad you are happy there and that you are very proud of it. Please share your great experience with others here , you are just as welcome here as I am, to post your views.

By the way if you truly read the whole thing you will notice I dissed Laramie also, another place where I have bad memories. Again I know others who love it there and they are free to post here to counter my view. No hard feelings on my part.

Anyone who reads this info must take it with a grain of salt, in full knowledge that, just as with anything else that people write about, it has biases and inconsistensies.  I am just trying to help .   No personal shots were intended.    Miles

PS We all have enough to fight about in life I do not want to cause anyone here pain. I will edit the spiteful wording and hope that we can focus on our common ground.

[PaulWy]

Chill,

I am sorry that you feel ostracized here. I enjoyed talking with you several times at the jamboree. To help you (and others) understand where we stand, I would like to point out a few things. The first is that you were admirably upfront about your opposition to the Zero/Non-Aggression Principle. That first night as you told us of your plan to go the Libertarian Party convention to have that principle removed from the platform, I formed a pretty solid view of where you stand on things. I suspect that others did also. In spite of that position, I suspect you did not feel ostracized, since you stuck around for the jam. If your definition of ostracized is that we fail to throw out long-held and hard-won values, then I just have to say, ?too bad.? I expect that if you have anything else to contribute, we would gladly read it. For example, if you know of job openings that pay enough money to not commute from Driggs, Idaho or condos for sale at less than a quarter million or a cool event at the Teton Science Museum (of course the latter really does happen), please do share with us. If you hadn?t noticed, that is mostly what this forum is about anyway.

For those of you in Jackson who don?t get out much, people all over Wyoming consider Jackson a wacky place. Liberal elite ideas like signing up Jackson for an anti-global warming campaign just show that Jackson is part of Wall Street-Hollywood-Aspen-Washington DC. Long before FSW came along, we Wyoming residents delighted in sharing the story of Arnold Schwarzenegger at Bubba?s Bar-B-Que. Ask me some time if you haven?t heard it. I also assert that anyone who lives in Jackson knows all about these things, although it may not seem strange to them.

As for Jackson itself, I have visited Jackson periodically since I was a baby. My family has some history with the area. I even pondered a condo there, back when it was much more affordable. What you characterized as ?hatred? is probably more a matter of bemusement at how ?the rich people? live. The same attitude is held towards Hollywood, which in many cases consists of the same people (with some apparent exceptions.) If you really like Jackson, why not feel happy that the rest of us won?t add to the crowds there? There is an underlying assumption on this forum that potential re-locators cannot afford to live there, but that might attract people who do have enough money.

As for your charge of ?anarchism? among FSW people, it is a foul deed to pick the dirtiest word in your dictionary and throw it on people who befriended you. Nothing about FSW approves bomb-throwers or seeks violence against anyone, nor chaos and disorder, and you know that is what you want people to think when you make such a vile charge. Many of us have come to a position of opposing and refusing aggression in our lives. Most of us also believe in self-defense to prevent from others aggressing against us. If you want to define that as anarchy, you do violence to common sense and words themselves. I suggest you owe us an apology.


The reason you could not send Mr. Gathercole a PM is because he has not registered, and visits this forum as a guest. I understand how this could also distort his view of the forum, as it probably does for many people, because guests only get to see a few topics. Of course it also means that may fine posts on various subjects are not accessible to search engines and so fewer people find their way to this forum and FSW.

PaulWy

[PaulWy]

Correction: In the last sentence of the above post, the word "may" should have been "many."

In addition to guests not seeing the entire forum, registered users who are not signed FSW members/associates are not able to fully participate, including editing our posts. I am told that "membership has its privileges."

PaulWy

[Boston]

For some people not used to libertarian concepts and their real-world
extrapolation, it seems like "anarchism" because so many government
institutions and controls (which they favor) are absent in the libertarian paradigm.

I.e., it's a perspective issue, mainly.

So, I don't know if Chill was trying to be vaguely offensive, or if he honestly had
no other word to adequately describe his view of the libertarian vision.  Until
he clears that up, perhaps we should give him the benefit of the doubt...

The first is that you were admirably upfront about your opposition to the Zero/Non-Aggression Principle. That first night as you told us of your plan to go the Libertarian Party convention to have that principle removed from the platform,

I've not signed the ZAP myself, but not because I've anything
specific against it.  Sometimes, extremely succinct propositions take
me more time to consider, because of all that's left unsaid.

Nonetheless, I can't see any reason to have the ZAP removed from
the LP platform--unless there's already some solid body of work outlining
the dangers of ZAP of which I'm unaware.  The controversy interests me...

In addition to guests not seeing the entire forum, registered users who are not signed FSW members/associates are not able to fully participate, including editing our posts. I am told that "membership has its privileges."

It's not so much a privilege for FSWers, but one denied to the rest
of the forum participants to prevent general abuse common on other
fora.  It probably seems an unfair policy to apply to most, and I'm trying to
form a better policy.  Perhaps after X number of posts, editing control is allowed?

The reason you could not send Mr. Gathercole a PM is because he has not registered, and visits this forum as a guest. I understand how this could also distort his view of the forum, as it probably does for many people, because guests only get to see a few topics. Of course it also means that ma[n]y fine posts on various subjects are not accessible to search engines and so fewer people find their way to this forum and FSW.

To clarify this, Bob was actually a registered forum user, but disenrolled himself
(which changed his status to "guest").  Thus, his email account is no longer readable.


__________
Miles, thanks for your post and its spirit.  FWIW, I never thought you too harsh
on Teton, and certainly not offensive about it.  It's your call to edit the wording,
as nobody here is requesting this of you.

I extensively searched the forum for anti-Teton comments to understand Bob's ire,
and really couldn't piece together much to get so upset about:

http://www.fundamentalsoffreedom.com/fswforum/index.php?topic=3290.0
http://www.fundamentalsoffreedom.com/fswforum/index.php?topic=3375.0

(btw, we're really risking highjacking your thread, Miles, for which I apologize!  Lots
of spin-off topics here!)

Boston

[/color]

[wyomiles]

Boston, Thanks again, I felt in the spirit of goodwill It would be best to keep my negative comments out and keep the spirit of the tour on a positive note. Actually in the end Bob has probably called more negative attention to Jackson than I have.   And I think most people in my "socio-economic class", who spend a year or two living in Jackson, as I did, will come to the same conclusion and have the same experiences as I did.

No problem with the highjacking, thats all part of having a conversation.      Miles