FSW article in Thermopolis' Independent Record

[planetaryjim]

Dear Countrymech,

Jim, have you ever been to Thermopolis?

Yes, I have been.  I've been in Thermopolis in 1971, 1997, 1998, and 2002.  Of course, if everyone were minding everyone else's business in Thermopolis, you'd have known as much.

There is no anonimity in Thermopolis.

You write as though anonymity were a bad thing.

I was never asked my name by anyone I met for the first time on my various visits to Thermopolis.  Of course, two of the people I visited there knew me by name ahead of time.

You write with the handle Countrymech.  Why don't you use your real name?  Your name isn't revealed on your FSW forum profile.  Nor is your e-mail address.  Do you have something to hide?  (Please rest assured that I don't mind if you choose not to disclose your name.)

It seems to me that there is a valid concern about your argument against anonymity based on your own unwillingness to disclose your own identity.  The argument you make comes off sounding hypocritical.  I regret that it seems like an ad hominem criticism to point out the evident hypocrisy in your argument, but I do feel the point needs making.

On a similar note, one of the planning department officials in Crook County apparently goes by the handle "Sundance Planner" on the web forum "Cyburbia" (sp?) wherein he extols the virtues of telling private property owners what they may and may not do with their own property, adding laws and regulatory burden to property ownership, and increasing the budget for planning departments.  As I recall from my visits to that forum some weeks back, he also expressed contempt for the intelligence and perspicacity of his neighbors.  It seems to me that his behavior is far more dangerous than anything that pro-property and pro-liberty folks like Boston might be doing.  After all, he has an official position with a county government, which rather makes his private opinions about what his department is and does a matter of concern to anyone who lives in, owns property in, or visits Crook County. 

Curious, then, that the local paper is making a mockery of objectivity by criticising Free State Wyoming members and plans, without investigating this rather perverse government official.  It is also amusing that the paper in Thermopolis complains of Boston using a pseudonym when the best evidence available indicates that one of the editors of the Sundance Times goes by the pseudonym Louis Laune, and writes what appear to me to be libelous statements about, e.g., Susan Callaway.  I suppose it is a professional courtesy for the Thermopolis paper to ignore such behavior by the Sundance paper?

There are no secrets, everyone knows evryone else's business.

I regret to inform you that I find your opinion on this point to be amusingly naive.  Of course, you actually don't know everyone else's business as much as you think you do.

After all, if you did, you'd not only have known that I had visited your community several times, but you'd know with whom I had visited.

It is a very tight knit community and my experience over the past 25 years has been that you will either fit in and be accepted or you will be more than glad to find a way out.

Presumably you would resent it if I were to say that I don't care what other people think, including you and your narrow-minded neighbors.

I wonder whether people who have dark complexions or foreign accents would "fit in and be accepted" or not?

We have a definite PR issue in Thermopolis and it needs to be handled delicately or FSW will amount to "Freeman" or Sand Point Id. Paul

I'm somewhat curious who you mean by "we" in your sentence just above.  I notice that you are not a member of FSW.

Isn't it droll that whenever individuals choose to exercise their freedom and behave with integrity toward one another, they are labeled with all kinds of monikers of other groups?  Free State Wyoming is a group of individuals who, in my experience of them, prefer free market economics to communism or socialism, prefer individual liberty to slavery, prefer tolerance to bigotry, prefer private property to state ownership of anything, and are capable of taking intelligent choices.

If the people in Thermopolis are narrow minded, foolish, hateful, hurtful, intolerant, anti-market, pro-communist, socialistic, or unpleasant, so what?  The world is full of such people. 

Curiously, my own experiences as a tourist and visitor to Thermopolis on various occasions has caused me to form a completely different view.  I have found the people I met there to be open minded, intelligent, decent, pleasant, tolerant, pro-market, pro-freedom, pro-property, and extraordinarily helpful. 

To expect the local newspaper to reflect such values is, in my view, to expect something exceedingly rare.

Regards,

Jim

[Chris]

Jim, ya might be reading a bit much into countrymech?s post.

I'm somewhat curious who you mean by "we" in your sentence just above.  I notice that you are not a member of FSW.

I thought the FAQ stated that FSW members want to move to and live ?in Wyoming as good neighbors with the locals.?

How does ?us vs them? elitism serve to promote an expectation of ?good neighbors? or foster anything but a hostile attitude towards anyone who might be affiliated with FSW?  Should everyone, including locals should sign up as a full FSW member/associate or they shouldn?t attempt to join the forum and view themselves as at least a small part of this group? (Including locals who have participated in this forum but haven't bothered with an SOI that promises to move to WY when they already live there?)

Being antagonistic &/or easily offended are not exactly endearing traits, especially from those of us who are "Wyoming Bound? towards those who already live there (like Paul), whether they are SOI signers or not.

You write as though anonymity were a bad thing.

While it may be a questionable assertion, the statement that ?there is no anonymity in Thermopolis? doesn?t seem to have anything to do with whether anonymity is good or bad, only it?s existence (or lack thereof.)

You write with the handle Countrymech.  Why don't you use your real name?  Your name isn't revealed on your FSW forum profile. 
?
It seems to me that there is a valid concern about your argument against anonymity based on your own unwillingness to disclose your own identity.  The argument you make comes off sounding hypocritical.  I regret that it seems like an ad hominem criticism to point out the evident hypocrisy in your argument, but I do feel the point needs making.

Unless I?m missing something, he?s signed at least his first name (Paul) to most of the posts I?ve seen him write, including the one you seem to be taking offense to. (Reread his last post, or your last quotation of his post.)

Of course, you actually don't know everyone else's business as much as you think you do.
?
After all, if you did, you'd not only have known that I had visited your community several times, but you'd know with whom I had visited.

He also said that ?It is a very tight knit community?. Visiting 4 times in the last 35 years hardly makes you either a member of the community, or a subject of talk that everyone would know about (unless you performed some famous or infamous act(s) on one or more of your visits.)

It is also amusing that the paper in Thermopolis complains of Boston using a pseudonym when the best evidence available indicates that one of the editors of the Sundance Times goes by the pseudonym Louis Laune, and writes what appear to me to be libelous statements about, e.g., Susan Callaway.  I suppose it is a professional courtesy for the Thermopolis paper to ignore such behavior by the undance paper?

I?m with you 100% there. Isn?t there a joke about sharks not eating lawyers due to the same kind of ?professional courtesy??


Chris

[Boston]

from Chris:

Being antagonistic &/or easily offended are not exactly endearing traits, especially from those of us who are "Wyoming Bound? towards those who already live there (like Paul), whether they are SOI signers or not.

I agree!

Boston

[Paul W. Allen]

Naive Jim? I bet you didn't know that I have 2 ex-wives, one from Va and thye other from Ma. I tried to get them to accept Wyo in all its glory. It didn't work. My wife now is from Wyo, born and bred. Imagine that it has lasted 10 years. the other marriages only lasted 2. Did you know that Wyo ranks at the top of the list as far as suicide rates per capita. Did you also realize that 60% of the workers that were recruited through job fairs have already left the state. This is Wyoming, not some great social experiment. Wyoming will decide if you have the metal to cut it. As far as a $25.00 fee? If that is what it takes to get credibility then you spend too much time on the net. Come out here try to grow a lawn with no water, repair beams in your barn because the wind shattered them. Then call me naive.If you really manage to  move out here and make it a few winters and we will talk. Paul.

[planetaryjim]

Dear Chris,

Thanks for your comments.  Countrymech, aka Paul W. Allen, wrote some things that were rude and had a bullying tone.  I don't particularly care for either, and am happy to give as good as I get.

Wanting to be a good neighbor does not mean that I wish to be a bad neighbor.  A bad neighbor is someone who makes newcomers feel unwelcome, is inhospitable, and makes casual assertions about how tough it is to live in Wyoming that lots more people commit suicide there, thus anyone from anywhere else is unlikely to have the mettle to live there.  It seems extraordinary to me that I've found a more pleasant welcome in the contents of the messages of every African that I ever met in Djibouti, Eritrea, Ethiopia, or Somalia who has written to me than I have in this commentary by Mr. Allen.  Oh, well.

Asking what the man means by "we" is not promoting an idea of elitism.  It is asking, sincerely, what he means.  If he were a member of FSW, or an associate of FSW, or had some information about himself on his profile when I wrote to inquire, I would have had a better idea of who he was, and might guess what he meant by "we."  (Mr. Allen: I don't have any concern about the $25.  I don't mind if you sign up, pay, don't pay, or don't sign up.  It is all the same to me.)

It seems absurd that my comments would cause hostility toward other FSW members and affiliates.  I'm just this guy.  I'm not an officer of FSW, I'm not a leader of FSW, I'm just a member and volunteer.  My opinions are my own, and it is not only absurd to assert that my opinions are someone else's, or are generally accepted by others in this (or any other) group, but it is wrongheaded.  Guilt by association and tarring with a broad brush and punishing many for the sins of one are things that militarists, nationalists, socialists, bullies, and politicians do.  I'm against such behavior, and you should be, too.

Should everyone sign up?  Every single one should take his own choice. 

Given that each individual has to be responsible for his own choices, I don't much like it when someone says, "We ought to do " thus and such.  What does "we" mean in that context?  I asked a question.   You read into my message an elitism about membership that was not there.  I simply wanted to know what the guy meant by "we" in the context of his message.

I've been in a lot of groups with a lot of meetings.  Invariably, someone uses the word "we" in its self-exclusive sense.  "We ought to do thus and such," meaning "All y'all ought to get on with this very obvious idea I've had.  Get back to me when it is done."  I find that usage to be very frustrating, and I try to confront it whenever possible.

The SOI, as I understand it, can be signed by anyone, whether they have to move to Wyoming or not.  As I understand it, the fulfillment of the requirement to establish voting residency is easiest for those who already live in Wyoming - though not everyone is allowed to vote.

Being antagonistic or easily offended are not endearing traits, from me, nor from Mr. Allen.  If you review the thread, you'll notice that I made a few respectful comments and then he lashed out at me for not being a native of Thermopolis.  It is certainly true that I'm not a Thermopo-hoplite.  Perhaps I never shall be.  Perhaps if I show up there, someone would choose to slash my tires or key my Jeep to show me just how welcoming they can be.  I've no idea.  That has not been my experience in the past, though.

Being submissive is not my way.  If you think that I ought to let antagonistic comments slide, I regret very much that I cannot assist you in this manner.  I am obstreperous because I see no reason not to voice objections.  I am ornery because I see no reason not to stick to my principles.  I am difficult because I am unwilling to let other people boss me around or bully me. 

Everyone has choices to take.  I've taken plenty.

Regards,

Jim

[planetaryjim]

Dear Mr. Allen,

You are correct that I don't know anything about you or your personal life.

You are certainly mistaken that Wyoming has the most difficult climate that I've encountered.  For cold weather, that would be Alaska, and for barrenness, the Guban Desert.

It is unclear to me why you wish to make antagonistic comments about whether or not I've the mettle to live in Wyoming.  Certainly, it is a valid criticism of your comments that you have not indicated much hospitality or warm fellowship is available from you and those of your neighbors who share your outlook.  Perhaps one of the reasons that Wyoming has a very high rate of suicide is this lack of warmth or welcome.  I wouldn't know.

With particular regard to lawns, I dislike them very much, and would not seek to grow one.  A lawn is a peculiar northeastern European conceit to suggest wealth.  A carefully tended and closely cropped lawn indicates the presence of sheep, goats, cows, or other livestock.  For thousands of years, Europeans accounted for wealth using cattle.  Words like "pecuniary" refer to this habit of identifying cattle with wealth.

So, if one were to travel in, say, 15th Century England and one encountered a group of rolling hills of closely cropped grass, even if one did not see any sheep, one would expect them to be out of sight in one of the valleys.  So, having a lawn meant having livestock and wealth.  Even a small lawn meant having a few grass eaters and some wealth.

It is therefore something of a cultural imperative for Americans to have lawns and go about mowing them to simulate the presence of sheep.  "See how wealthy I am?  I have this lawn, and you just don't happen to see the sheep right now, they must be out in back."

Growing a lawn without water? Not me, man. 

I'm not out in the yard every Saturday mowing the grass to impress the neighbors. 

It happens that I think being a good neighbor is more about being prepared for disasters, being willing to come running when there's trouble, being alert, being considerate, and being decent.  It means, to me, standing up for what I believe is right, and taking no guff from bullies.  It means having principles about private property, individual liberty, and free market economics, and sticking to those principles in spite of what the neighbors might say.  If I'm not able to live up to what you think a good neighbor is, then I very much regret my inability.

Regards,

Jim

[Paul Bonneau]

Jim, have you ever been to Thermopolis? There is no anonimity in Thermopolis. I would wager that a full 1/2 of the county is inter-related. There are no secrets, everyone knows evryone else's business. It is a very tight knit community and my experience over the past 25 years has been that you will either fit in and be accepted or you will be more than glad to find a way out. We have a definite PR issue in Thermopolis and it needs to be handled delicately or FSW will amount to "Freeman" or Sand Point Id. Paul

Good point, Paul. However, if Thermopolis is anything like Cody is, the newspaper raising hell has little credibility itself. So deflecting criticism might not be that difficult after all.

I agree these small towns don't harbor many secrets. Cody is the same. It's all right, that's the way I like it. People should be known for what they are.

[Jared]

> or FSW will amount to "Freeman" or Sand Point Id.

Actually there has been some confusion in Sundance over this point, simply because of the word "Free" in Free State Wyoming, some people have mistakenly associated FSW with the Freemen.

[planetaryjim]

Dear Jared,

Isn't that interesting?  "Free" now connotes "the Freemen of Montana."

And, presumably, 19 April now connotes the deaths of various men, women, and children in Oklahoma City in 1995 rather than the defeat and massacre of redcoats in 1775.

Ain't NewSpeak grand?

"Freedom is slavery,"  "War is Peace," and "Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia."

All the news that's printed to fit.

Regards,

Jim

[Boston]

Good points, Jim.
As Orwell so deftly portrayed in 1984, to control thought one must control the language.

Jared, I think the silly confusion of the FSW with the properly jailed Montana "Freemen" will be
very short-lived, and is already dying out.

Boston

[manfromnevada]

Boston,
I hope you're right, but Jared's comment was based upon what I actually heard a "local" tell me when I first told him that I was indeed with "that Free Wyoming" group (after he asked me). This was two weeks ago.

Think about average Joe. He doesn't read that much and what he does read he skims. He read something about "Free Wyoming" or "Free Staters" or "Free State Wyoming" people moving in. The only other thing that comes to thought (since he's never heard of FSP) are those "Freeman" who caused lots of trouble up north.

They must somehow be connected, or at least similar, right? Something undesirable, that's for sure!

That's why I think it's important for those of us who live here to come forward and talk to people one on one if the opportunity prevails. Just like talking about OC when someone asks. It educates and spreads the truth rather than rumor and innuendo.

Mac

[bobcat]

Dear Jared,

Isn't that interesting?  "Free" now connotes "the Freemen of Montana."

And, presumably, 19 April now connotes the deaths of various men, women, and children in Oklahoma City in 1995 rather than the defeat and massacre of redcoats in 1775.

Ain't NewSpeak grand?

"Freedom is slavery,"  "War is Peace," and "Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia."

All the news that's printed to fit.

Regards,

Jim

Well put Jim.  See, you can write a short post!  I know, it must have been painful.
I particularly like "All the news that's printed to fit."  Good play on words.
 

[Chris]

Jim,

I don?t buy the response ?But he started it!!?  from 5-year-olds, & I don?t buy it from you.

He had a ?bullying tone?? This is a forum ? the inability to reliably infer ?tones? from printed words on a page is a known drawback of forums. As I said the other day, I believe you read more into Paul?s post than is/was there.

I would agree that I did the same thing with your post if your question about the meaning of ?we? was not solely qualified with your observation of membership status. I will grant that although you may not have had an elitist message/intent in your head when you typed it, the words in your post certainly contained such an implication.

It seems absurd that my comments would cause hostility toward other FSW members and affiliates.

It doesn?t matter whether we like it or not, people?s opinions of groups are influenced by their individual members. If you, I, ML, Bonneau, or even Boston attack people for whatever reason, everyone else in FSW can easily get splattered with the resulting feelings & opinions. Maybe there?s some unicorn-itopian planet or moon-base out there where all of the Libertarian Party theoretical ideals exist & that doesn't happen, but that?s not the case on Earth. Right or wrong, guilt by association happens all the time.

I?ve read a lot of good ideas & points from you Jim, but we could all do without some aggrieved mentality which perceives attacks & bullying where they don?t necessarily exist. Not every disagreeing opinion is an attack or ?antagonistic comment.? Nonetheless, it is not difficult to stand up for yourself without the need for condescending, sarcastic & egotistical replies.

My point is not about being submissive or letting people boss you around, but that an overly defensive & argumentative attitude does nothing but alienate others & sow bitter seeds in places many of us may want to move to. Such actions lend credence to the idea of FSWers as ?outsiders? or "invaders", & increase the likelihood of hostility & unpleasantness for you & everyone else in the FSW, especially those of us who are still working to move there. It?s hard enough to fit in to a new town without being viewed as a potential (or even probable) jerk, based on someone else?s actions.

Chris

[Boston]

FSWers, as with anybody, should be judged solely on their own individual merits.

It is a human trait, apparently, to judge by association.
I have tried to limit the scope of that by limiting the scope of the FSW itself.

It is barely even an organization...on purpose, thus it will necessarily stretch
any accuser to speak of us accurately in a collective sense, especially pejoratively.

That said, if anyone hears a generically unfavorable report of the FSW, yet
without concurrently supporting evidence regarding any FSWers in particular,
then the listener has all that is necessary to file such a report under the category of:

Unsubstantiated Rumor Based on Interpersonal Ignorance

Overwhelmingly, Wyoming locals like FSWers in person, and that is what matters.

As I close this thread, I thank you all for your posts.

Regards,
Boston