Author Topic: WHY THE GUN IS CIVILIZATION  (Read 37339 times)

Offline Boston

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WHY THE GUN IS CIVILIZATION
« on: August 29, 2007, 10:12:17 AM »
Dear fellow Wyomingites,

Some folks have wondered aloud why many FSWers prefer to daily
wear their handguns.  The below essay explains very well why.

If anyone would counter with "Personal arms are not necessary in Wyoming
because violent crime here is nearly nonexistent
" -- they should ask themselves:
Then why do we still need the police?

You're several more times likely, in your lifetime, to need a handgun to deal with
a lethal threat than you are to need fire insurance on your home . . . yet more
people carry fire insurance than carry a gun. 

I don't understand that.

Regards,
Boston





Quote
WHY THE GUN IS CIVILIZATION


By Marco Kloos

Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.

[BTP NOTE:  According to David Friedman, author of
The Machinery of Freedom,  there is also a third category: 
Love (includes affection, friendship, etc.)]


 
In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

 
When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that  puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

 
There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a [armed] mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.


Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter. It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.

 
When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation...and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.

« Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 07:55:19 AM by Jared »

Offline bobcat

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Re: WHY THE GUN IS CIVILIZATION
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2007, 10:36:49 AM »
HERE, HERE!  Plainspoken, clearly and simply put argument.  Most effective.  One for the archives.

Thanks for the post, Boston.

A simple thought:
If one applies the typical liberal 'victimization' argument(s) to firearms ownership and use after reading this article, one has to wonder why liberals don't ENDORSE the ownership of firearms.  Wouldn't that help to EQUALIZE folks?  Hmmmm?

Because most liberals do not subscribe to individual citizens owning firearms, I can only conclude that those liberals are simply interested in controlling the citizen into submission.

Bobcat  

"Those who would sacrifice Liberty for security, deserve neither Liberty or security."  -Benjamin Franklin
"Citizenship is not a spectator sport"  -K Denninger

Offline Jared

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Re: WHY THE GUN IS CIVILIZATION
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2007, 11:56:47 AM »
We had a little bit of discussion about this, but it sort of fell off over attribution of the work -- http://www.fundamentalsoffreedom.com/fswforum//index.php?topic=4681.0
"Nothing good in life comes but at a price. Sweetest of all is liberty. This we have chosen and this we pay for."

Offline Paul Bonneau

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Re: WHY THE GUN IS CIVILIZATION
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2007, 12:52:54 PM »
Quote
Then why do we still need the police?

Well, we don't.  ;)

It might be a bit of a stretch to say the gun is civilization, since civilizations existed before guns. But I'd say the gun is freedom. Only personal arms, and the will to use them when needed, can make people free.
Laws turn men into slaves.

Offline MamaLiberty

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Re: WHY THE GUN IS CIVILIZATION
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2007, 02:00:16 PM »
It might be a bit of a stretch to say the gun is civilization, since civilizations existed before guns. But I'd say the gun is freedom. Only personal arms, and the will to use them when needed, can make people free.

Seems to me that the gun is simply the latest, most universally available tool for this purpose. But from the time the very first weapon was created - maybe since people got the idea to throw rocks to defend themselves - some people have always worked hard to keep others disarmed and subjected. Those two have always gone hand in hand.

Remember the reason many orientals used nothing but chopsticks for centuries?

Free men and women are armed, slaves are not. A few hundred years from now the gun will probably be considered a quaint antique, and something else will have taken its place. But free men and women will still be armed and ready to take personal responsibility for their lives and property - regardless of the tool they use. That is civilization.
It's not that people are dumber, it's that stupidity used to be more painful.

Offline PatriotAR15

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Re: WHY THE GUN IS CIVILIZATION
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2007, 02:12:23 AM »
Im sick of all the Euro-Trash bashing America and saying "Civilized Nations dont allow their citizens to own guns!!!"

This essay was well written, next time I cross a Frenchie insulting America because "we have to many guns", I'll have to send this essay.
Happiness is a cold gun, and a warm beer... Also could use a cure for dyslexia. - Jack

Offline jubal

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Re: WHY THE GUN IS CIVILIZATION
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2007, 07:59:33 AM »
God made man. Sam Colt made him equal.

   "It is reasonable and just I should have a right to destroy that which threatens me with destruction".
                                 John Locke
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When planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary".
 Thomas Paine

Offline Daveasxx

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Re: WHY THE GUN IS CIVILIZATION
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2007, 09:54:14 AM »
Simple and to the point.  This is one of the best essays I've read recently.

Dave
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."? Johann W. von Goeth

Offline socalserf

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Re: WHY THE GUN IS CIVILIZATION
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2008, 11:29:45 PM »
Why the Gun Is Civilization-
Neatly explains why D.C., Chicago, N.Y., and L.A. aren't civilized.

Offline johnwayne_s

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Re: WHY THE GUN IS CIVILIZATION
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2008, 12:30:09 AM »
I've just read the quote by Maj. L. Caudill (USMC). In my self-defence classes from years ago I always told my students it would be much smarter to learn to use a gun and carry it than to think they would be able to deal with all threats with the instruction I gave them in a two hour class. The main idea I passed to them was being aware of the careless things they themselfs do everyday, the dangerus habbits they've acquired over the years and their thoughtless inattention to the details. Everytime I brought up the idea of carrying a handgun they wanted to know if I carried one, and when I said I did, they asked why! They already knew I hold a Dan ranking in Aikido and have had training in Juijitsu for 4 years and trained in four other MA for the last 30 years. I explain to them that any MA training they get will help to get them fit and help to center their mind and control their body in the event of being attacked. But it sure would have helped to have read Maj. Caudill's message a long time ago. The streets of Shreveport are dangerus and to help keep it that way people here are duped into beleving that it's difficult to get a CCW permit and thay think it's unlawful to carry a gun in your car. I've talked to several people who think it's unlawful to buy an AR, AK, M1A, FAL or any other type weapon. A friend of mine was stoped by the SPD a year ago, and like an idiot he gave them permission to search his truck. They found that he had 5 Glock magazines that had "For Military or Government Use Only" on them. He was cuffed and read his rights. Lucky for all involved that the Sgt. in charge showed up and notified the other cops of the assalt weapons ban experation. The other cops had no idea there ever was one, they thought my friend stole the mags AND the Glock!!!!  JohnWayne_S

Offline elk

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Re: WHY THE GUN IS CIVILIZATION
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2008, 05:36:38 PM »
Wow JW... and here I would've thought the cops were merely malicious and trying to steal those mags because they're now collectors items.  I sold one for a lot of cold cash once, and it was, to me, a 12 dollar purchase.  Brand spanking new federal/cop/mil use only stamped sig mag.  Man those things are hard to come by "new" :)

Collectors items.
Trading privacy for security is stupid enough; not getting any actual security in the bargain is even stupider.  ~ Bruce Schneier of Cryptogram fame (www.schneier.com)

Remember always that the only thing they required of us was our moral sanction. You lost when you accepted their moral code.

Offline Redleg

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Re: WHY THE GUN IS CIVILIZATION
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2009, 03:10:10 PM »
My interpretation of the government's attempt to regulate firearms is that the government is trying to exert more control over American citizens, plain and simple. Obama, Reid, Pelosi, Feinstein, Boxer, Schumer, Dodd, Kerry, Kennedy, et al. and their ilk do not appreciate being challenged by us lowly commoners with our “simple educations”. They feel that their wealth & Ivy League educations entitle them to make decisions for, and dictate to, the rest of us. We are nothing more than "uninformed and ignorant masses" in their eyes. With government, any government including ours, it always boils down to control. It doesn’t take a degree in astrophysics to see that and 6,000 years of human history bears this out. History is full of government (all forms of government) oppression of its subjects. Even the Greeks who are touted as the fathers of democracy and western civilization kept slaves and treated their women as property fit for nothing more than bearing the next generation. Democracy was only enjoyed by male Greek citizens who owned land. America is the first country in history to truly allow freedom for all. Our founders were fully aware of the corrupting influences of governmental power. That is why they instituted a “Bill of Rights” in an attempt to guarantee our continued liberty. They knew that without it our noble experiment was doomed to failure. Unfortunately we have allowed those rights to be severly eroded over time. The 2nd Amendment is about checking the out of control power of government (which includes the right to defend yourself), PERIOD! This is a natural human right that can't be granted by any government, king, prince, or potentate. Every living creature has the natural right of self defense, unless of course you live in England or some other such country where they have attempted to strip that right away. They have the audacity to punish those who attempt to protect themselves from muggers even with briefcases and umbrellas. Never mind guns, which are now non-existent except in the hands of criminals and the government. Is there even really a difference anymore between the two? The criminal steals your wealth by taking your belongings and the government steals your wealth by the exorbitant and excessive taxes levied against your labor and other things. Without the 2nd Amendment we are nothing more than servants of the state, obliged to follow whatever laws, rules, or regulations they dictate, even when those laws are unfair, unjust, or unconstitutional. When we are disarmed and no longer have the power to resist, as the current regime is so intent on rendering us, and they are in complete control, I can guarantee you that they will no longer even bother with the pretense of trying to show us that they care how we feel. Their true colors will finally be blatantly obvious for all to see, even those in our country who have deluded themselves for all these years from the truth as long as they had the newest electronic gadget or other material comfort. At that point we will have finally slipped back into a state of servitude and be nothing more than a modern day serf for the state. Unfortunately 500 years of slow and agonizing forward movement in the pursuit of liberty with all of its attendant sacrifices for the cause will have come to an inglorious end.

I for one will not go gently into that good night!

"When the government fears the people, there is liberty; when the people fear the government, there is tyranny." - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Redleg

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Re: WHY THE GUN IS CIVILIZATION
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2009, 09:25:18 PM »
I also wanted to share the following short (3 page) Cato policy report entitled "Self-Defense: An Endangered Right" by Joyce Lee Malcolm. I think it adds quite a bit to the discussion on "Why the Gun is Civilization" but from another perspective, that of what happens when our rights are infringed or removed altogether rather than the philisophical approach. It shows the way the citizens' right to self-defense in England was gradually eliminated and what the results of this policy have been. It shows how out of control government can become (to the point of absurdity) in the application of those laws. It is one of the best recent examples I have seen why we MUST fight ANY laws which attempt to regulate or restrict our right to keep and bear arms or our access to guns, ammunition, reloading supplies, etc. Here is the link:

http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/v26n2/cpr-26n2-1.pdf

I HIGHLY recommend that EVERYONE read this short report!!!

"When the government fears the people, there is liberty; when the people fear the government, there is tyranny." - Thomas Jefferson

Offline MarkHB

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Re: WHY THE GUN IS CIVILIZATION
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2009, 05:34:26 PM »
Hallo.  I've registered here to point out a misattribution.  There is as far as I know no Major Caudill in the USMC, retired or not.  The author of this essay is Marko Kloos, whose blog carries his post here:

http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/2007/03/23/why-the-gun-is-civilization/

I'm sure it would be best appreciated if the actual author of this post were accredited.  Where this "Caudill" person came from, I do not know.

Please be sure to credit the actual author of this piece, not a fictional character, in linking or quoting it.  Thank you for your time. 

Offline socalserf

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Re: WHY THE GUN IS CIVILIZATION
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2009, 07:21:38 PM »
Hey MarkHB,
Welcome to the forum.

Looks like you are the Author of the article, a very well writen and thoughtful tract.
Thank you.