member of the FSP-NH

[alexspartan]

"What?"

"Ammo, dude.  Bring ammo."

Sorry, had to complete it.

[alexspartan]

But, back on topic.  Yes, people have been giving speeches, with very good results, for years, on all kinds of topics ranging the entire agenda of liberty, but ultimately to no avail.

I'm willing to bet that if you could get every single Obama and McCain voter to watch a great libertarian speech on TV, when they're by themselves and away from the effects of the crowd, a speech that just totally blows their mind and makes them think in fundamentally different ways, a vast majority wouldn't change their votes.

Although, I would argue that a people, a society, that operates on the MYOB (Mind Your Own Business) principle would ultimately end up as slaves, unless they become foes of tyranny, and actively go out of their comfort zones to oppose tyranny, in all of it's forms.  Such can still be done while minding your own business. In fact, it is minding your business!

What do we plan on accomplishing in Wyoming?  Living the rest of our lives in an increasingly hostile political climate but only because it's less hostile?  Many of you who already live in Wyoming have posted many links and articles about how Wyoming is slowly succumbing to statists and socialists, especially in the southern cities.  What is being done to counteract this? 

I realize that there is a different culture in Wyoming than in NH, and I realize that Molon Labe was a fictional novel, but I do believe very firmly in the cause, now more than ever.  I understand that many in Wyoming do not like change, but things are already changing there.  At the very least, we need to stop the move towards less liberty.  Better would be to reverse the trend.

[maxxoccupancy]

That's exactly the thinking here in New Hampshire.

The point I'm trying to make is that educating the public is not as hopeless a picture as some paint.  Since the libertarian movement (LP, Reason, and numerous TV and radio shows, and so on) public opinion has gone from an almost wide eyed naivete about government to the exact opposite.  When I listen to people espouse political views, now, I hear a lot of libertarian phrases and ideas mentioned.  I have an easy time spreading the idea of individual liberty.  I believe that the great majority of people out there want either less government involvement in their lives in their lives or none at all.

The real objective is to find mostly proliberty folks and to get them to get into state and local politics, to show them how their tax dollars are really spent and to see how public power is really being misused.  If we don't have the general public as our ally, we don't have a leg to stand on.

[Boston]

I believe that the great majority of people out there want either less government involvement in their lives in their lives or none at all.

I don't believe that.

The public gets basically what they do want:  to be absolved of personal responsibility.
The goods of Liberty cannot be sold unless the "buyer" is first
an individual who is willing to take responsibility for his actions.

This is a psychological issue.  It's not due a lack of education.
While LPism can occasionally reach the right person of fertile soil,
that soil must generally already be fertile for the message.

If we don't have the general public as our ally, we don't have a leg to stand on.

True.
However, we live in a socialist state, supported by a socialist majority of voters.
And . . . they like it that way.
Don't ever forget that.
They don't want what we're selling.

This video (and our discussion) would be profitable for you:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x32cxf_yuri-bezmenov
http://www.fundamentalsoffreedom.com/fswforum/index.php?topic=6799.msg53175#msg53175

Boston

[maxxoccupancy]

When I speak to crowds, I win over pretty much everyone.  I just cannot understand why other libertarians are having a hard time with the general public.

[jubal]

It is almost humanly impossible to convince the dogmatic and doctrinaire mindset of mushrooms. Hopefully there are a few who haven't been in the dark places who will take on real nourishment instead of

[TreadNotUponMe]

The Western and Wyoming state efforts are far, far from dead.
Granted, if anyone relied solely upon the FSW website for news,
it probably appears so, but since the online action for the FSW
has always been our forum.  We've had many dozens of relocators
by now, and many of them have formed their own knots of
friendships and even business relations. <snip>
Boston

It's a problem that could be easily fixed by a random post on the front page.  "The weather is nice today."  I don't understand why you don't do it.  None of my business, but it couldn't hurt.

[maxxoccupancy]

Omigosh.  I've been "corrected" so many times on the freestateproject.org forum.  The FSW site isn't being updated, which serves as conclusive evidence that WY and MT are completely dead efforts.  If a few folks on this forum would be willing to create accounts and get a thread going on nhfree.com, a few posts from western members would probably help dispel that myth.  Unfortunately, most migrators are just repeating something that they believe to be true.  I've tried to post or state the correction a few times, but have gotten the angry, "Why don't you move out to Wyoming, then" response.  The NH project is really suffering from that.  Maybe 10-15% of members are just debatarians.

[rhodges]

If a few folks on this forum would be willing to create accounts and get a thread going on nhfree.com, a few posts from western members would probably help dispel that myth.

Speaking for myself, of course, I am not sure that I really care what they think.

If being certain of the truth on this subject were important to them, they would easily find the information they need.  Those who are satisfied with the limited information from an offhand comment are probably not interested in us anyway.

I've tried to post or state the correction a few times, but have gotten the angry, "Why don't you move out to Wyoming, then" response.

For these people, I am quite certain that I don't care what they think (or not).

[kylben]

I've tried to post or state the correction a few times, but have gotten the angry, "Why don't you move out to Wyoming, then" response.  The NH project is really suffering from that.

It would appear that your persuasive abilities are not what you think.   You may want to examine the parallels more closely.

Let Wyoming disappear from their ken.  Asimov's Second Foundation might be a useful analogy.

[maxxoccupancy]

Not with the FSP-NH folks, no.  Nevertheless, there are lots of people acting on false assumptions in this world.  Their ideas sound logical to them, but they don't seem to think things through.  The general public seems an easier target because they are less likely to be committed to some political or personal philosophy.

People can move where they want, but I have been a long time advocate of questioning bad assumptions, or at least acknowledging that something is an assumption--open to being disproved by evidence.  We makes our worst decisions when we're emotionally attached to some conclusion, and we make our best decisions when we carefully line up as much evidence as possible to consider the options in front of us.

[rhodges]

Nevertheless, there are lots of people acting on false assumptions in this world.

Heh.  That's like saying the ocean is a bit damp, eh?

We makes our worst decisions when we're emotionally attached to some conclusion, and we make our best decisions when we carefully line up as much evidence as possible to consider the options in front of us.

No argument there.  Emotional "investments" and the fallacy of "sunken cost" seem to be a recurring problem.

[Boston]

The FSW site isn't being updated, which serves as conclusive evidence that WY and MT are completely dead efforts.  If a few folks on this forum would be willing to create accounts and get a thread going on nhfree.com, a few posts from western members would probably help dispel that myth.

It may be evidence, but it's hardly "conclusive."

Tell the skeptics to simply register on our forum if they still believe the FSW moribund.
Meanwhile, thanks for your efforts on our behalf!


_____________

It's a problem that could be easily fixed by a random post on the front page.  "The weather is nice today."  I don't understand why you don't do it.  None of my business, but it couldn't hurt.

Thanks, and I agree.

Our webmistress has twice emailed me that she is ready to update
the FSW site with submissions, but these submissions are not getting to her.
There's a bottleneck somewhere that I don't yet quite understand, but I will.
This probably fell through the crack whilst I was in Africa over the summer,
but I'll get back on this.  I'd like the site revised at least 2x/month, if not weekly.

Boston

[maxxoccupancy]

Yeah, I work on the ocean, so I know what you're talking about.  Thanks for the supportive remarks.  I just posted a remark on the fsp forum about the jeffersonforum.net forum that is being put up (albeit a bit late) for liberty minded folks all over.  The intent is partly for folks all over the country to share info on liberty activism, as well as to serve as a recruiting tool for various free town, county, and state efforts.

Unfortunately, I got  another negative reply by someone who didn't want to hear about other state projects, or other efforts outside of NH.  It was a bit personal, but I've gotten used to that.  I've mentioned this to other freestaters, and the response is usually that they don't post on the fora anymore, as it is.

[Paul Bonneau]

I'm kinda on the fence on this one.

No doubt, if most of you had run into me around, say, 1980, you would have written me off as "hopeless". I was a conflicted mess of political opinions, some pro-freedom and some quite statist. Yet here I am. 

So, I would say it is not true that "the sheeple" can't learn to love freedom. I don't even like that term as it serves our enemies more than it does us, by alienating people from us. There are some people who can be turned around, and some who can't. That's all.

I look at it as planting a seed. You may not see a lightbulb appear above a person's head, someone you are trying to convince, and he grabs you and says, "I see it! You are completely right! I am going to turn my life around starting right now!" I know, that is a disappointment when it never happens. 

But some will come around in time. When the economy flops, the ones who look good now, living like leaches on society, won't look so smart. The more responsible will be vindicated.

I've also 'convinced' many people.  I even tricked a socialist friend of mine, in a way that would have made Socrates proud, to admit that socialism actually sucks, and that the anarchist-market is actually an amazingly awesome system for solving damn near every problem.  I even had him admit that gun control has never been to decrease crime, and that any further gun control is completely unnecessary and would in fact be detrimental.

But, they almost always go back to what they believe, because it's easy and convenient.  This is what my friend did.  He's voting for Obama.

No kidding. Why, I even know some folks who are going to vote for McCain! 

Give folks some time to come around. Don't be impatient. If talking to large groups is your thing, go ahead. If living as a good example is, and quietly, do that. It's all good.