So close, yet so far away!

[Blackwolf]

I just wanted to introduce myself - I just found this place!    

My husband and I live in western SD at the moment (we're refugees from the once-great State of Oregon).  He's retired and on disability, I take care of the animals and the garden (such as it is).  We thought SD was a great place at first, kind of like Oregon used to be back in the 50s and 60s.  Don't get me wrong - it's full of great people, but we're finding the politics sliding ever more down the drain, resembling Oregon more and more every day.  South Dakota now wants to charge us SALES TAX on things ordered on the internet from other states.  The Post Office is in cahoots with this idea, and has already "informed" on us when we bought cigarettes online.  Now we just go to Beulah.  SD slapped a $1.00 per pack tax on a year or so ago to fight obesity.  I don't actually get the logic of that, but... whatever.  Now they want to ban smoking in the entire state.  Just like Oregon.  (Except Oregon is now considering making it illegal to smoke in your own home or vehicle if you have children.  We're getting so sick of the government trying to live our lives for us.) 

Right now we live literally in the middle of nowhere (halfway between two "villages" that are 80 miles apart), and that suits us just fine, but I have to tell you, when we were moving over here, and we were crossing Wyoming, I fell in love.  I thought that would be what South Dakota would be like (the geography), but alas, that was not so.

(I'm rambling... sorry)

So recently we've been thinking of moving somewhere ELSE.  I was thinking of Wyoming.  We have 7 years left on our mortgage and then our place will be paid off.  In the unlikely event that we can find some other sucker to buy this place that's close to nothing, we can then go where we want.  So I'm trying to find out what Wyoming's like.  Hopefully, I can get a feel for it here.   

Thanks for making this forum available, and I hope I can get to know some of you, and maybe even in person, if you live far enough east in Wyoming! 

~Lannie

[wyomiles]

Howdy Blackwolf glad you found us. If you are close to The Newcastle Wyoming area we are having a get together near there in June. Come on over.

[Blackwolf]

Well, it's not close, but it's get-to-able!  LOL!  I looked around for the information and see that it's a weekend campout, which we wouldn't be able to do (no one to take care of the farm while we're away), but we COULD probably drive over there for a bit on one of the days and meet some people.  The only problem would be that we'd be gone from home so long, I'd need to bring our dogs, but we could keep them on leashes, if that would be OK.  They're nice dogs, but I understand not everyone wants to be licked in the face, so I could keep them leashed.

It sounds like it will be a fun time at the campout, and I wish we could camp with you (I DO miss camping!), but I guess a few hours of meeting some new friends and maybe using the range (I DO miss shooting!) would be a welcome diversion for us.   

~Lannie 

[HardwareHank]

Wyoming is just as tax-hungry as S. Dakota is.

Montana has no sales tax and a lot of N. Central Wyomingites shop in the Billings area. If you buy something in Billings that has to be trucked down, Wyoming collects the sales tax at the Port of Entry.

[Blackwolf]

Yeah, which is why we were thinking of somewhere in northern Wyoming, so we could shop in Montana.  On the other hand, I'm not sure I'd want to be so close to Yellowstone.  On the OTHER hand (do I have 3 hands?), if it blows, we sure wouldn't have time to worry about it! 

So Wyoming already charges sales tax on things ordered from out of state? I wonder if they'll start searching cars at the border to see if you have contraband (like groceries bought in Montana)? That would be the next logical step, right?  Or did I misunderstand?  Because as far as I know, it's not legal for a state to collect a "sales tax" on something purchased in another state.  They could charge some kind of "use tax" I suppose, if it was worded right, but not a sales tax.  But then, maybe I'm falling behind the times, and I need to study up a bit.  (I get steamed every time I hear about governments breaking laws and getting away with it.)

I do plan to browse around here every free minute I have, but in the meantime, since this question might not have been addressed before, what are the raw milk laws in Wyoming?  Can I sell raw milk there?  Or is it illegal?  Anybody know?

~Lannie

[MamaLiberty]

First, welcome indeed! I'm in Newcastle, and would love to meet you any time. Dogs welcome!

But you have to realize that there is no perfect place. Montana has plenty of taxes too, and plenty of government to attempt running your life as well. There are folks almost anywhere who want to tell you what to do and consume your productivity. It's just up to us not to let them.

I buy locally as much as possible - now running about 90%. The taxes are less than the cost of going to SD or Montana, not to mention the time involved. Nothing is perfect.

As for raw milk, I don't know about WY, but suspect that is really a federal matter anymore - or soon will be. If you wait for permission to do things, you won't get much done. Don't ask and don't tell is my advice, but you have to make up your own mind. I'd sure buy raw milk if I could get it. Heck, I'd even be happy to help you do the milking!!!

[Blackwolf]

And I would be happy to LET you help me!  LOL!  One cow is enough, soon it will be two!

I actually got hold of an acquaintance of mine on another forum (she lives near Casper) and she said it's illegal to sell raw milk in Wyoming.  Actually, she said there used to be legislation against it, and now they've removed it, but there's no law that says you can (I guess if they don't say you can't, you should be able to, right?).  But she also said she hasn't dug very deeply to find out for sure.  She also cleared up the sales tax question I had.  She said that if you buy something out of state and take possession of it there, then bring it back, it's fine.  If you buy something and have it shipped, they'll slap a use tax on it when it comes across the border, because you would be taking possession of it in Wyoming.  But so far, they haven't done anything about charging a use tax on things bought on the internet and mailed or UPSed into Wyoming.  They probably would if they thought they could, but it would be a logistical nightmare, in my opinion. 

The feds can't make it legal or illegal to do anything in any State.  All they can do is threaten to withhold funding to a State until the State makes its OWN law that the feds are happy with.  They can regulate interstate commerce of a thing, but not the sale of the thing within a State (whether it's milk or furniture or whatever).  On the other hand, if the State wants to do so, they can tell the feds to go pound sand.

Regarding the trip to Newcastle, I realized that in June I'll have already weaned the calf off my cow, so I'll be back to milking twice a day.  What a drag!  But the milk is good!  Anyway, it would definitely make a short visit out of it, but we could still probably get over there for at least a couple of hours one day.  I figure it's going to be 3 hours over and 3 hours back, so if we only spent 2 or 3 hours visiting, it wouldn't be any worse than any other shopping day.  We only shop once a month because it's so far, and then we're gone most of the day.  And besides, it will be summer then (hard to imagine, having just experienced our 12th blizzard for this winter and it's hovering just above zero right now), but the days will be long, so at least I won't have to come home and milk in the dark.   

~Lannie

P.S.  I hope I'm not coming across too strongly, being a new member and all.  You probably won't believe this, but I spent most of my life being a very quiet, shy, introverted person who never spoke up.  I don't know what happened but at some point I seem to have found my voice.  I just don't want to offend anyone by my strong feelings about certain things, so if anyone ever thinks I'm out of line, please tell me and I'll shut up (or at least TRY to! LOL!).   

[MamaLiberty]

Good grief, don't worry about speaking your mind around here. I'm not the only opinionated one here, just maybe the loudest sometimes. I milked a dairy herd for more than 15 years... so I'm ready!

And, unfortunately, the feds CAN legislate or control anything they want to. The "commerce clause" is used to regulate anything and everything, regardless of whether it crosses state lines or not. 

Of course the states could, and should, ignore unconstitutional federal "LAW," but they don't and won't.

From another forum: http://thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?topic=8133.new;boardseen#new
Every Thursday for the past 6 Months, Government Officials have raided
homes and businesses. Sometimes at Gunpoint, sometimes with a Warrant,
and sometimes with nothing more then the burly bodies that intimidate
those about to be oppressed.

                        Recite the Names below:

Stowers, Greg Niewendorp, Hixon, Miller, Griepentrog, Palmer

                           Now add your name.

Don't shrug aside if you are a businesses that provides goods and
services to Livestock owners. If we don't own Livestock – you have
nothing we need or want.

Today, Thursday of course, H.R. 1105 is awaiting assignment to Committee
in the Senate. It stands poised to allocate $289 million to APHIS for
the implementation of the National Animal Identification System. It also
outlines the time frame to implement in 2009 the tracking of 33 species.

An example: Poultry – “By July 1, 2009 – achieve 98% traceability in the
Commercial Poultry Industry...

That means if Murray McMurray sends you a chick – it had better be
traceable from their end and you better trace it when it gets to your
homestead. Think the cost of a Broiler is bad now? Think what it will be
when every chick that leaves that plant will be accounted for.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:HR01105:@@@X

The House managed to pass this “Omnibus 2009” in 24 hours and we have no
reason to believe that the Senate will not as well.

[Blackwolf]

And, unfortunately, the feds CAN legislate or control anything they want to. The "commerce clause" is used to regulate anything and everything, regardless of whether it crosses state lines or not.

OK, my bad, I should have said they can't LEGALLY do that.  I know they do illegal things (they have tried to do them to me).  But what I'm finding scary is how many people think they have the RIGHT to do illegal things.  That's why they do it.  Because they're getting away with it.  If only more people actually read the Constitution...

But I have chores to do, and I guess this isn't the time or place to get into THAT discussion!  LOL!

By the way, thanks for the invite!  And my doggies thank you!  Maybe one of these days, even if it isn't for the campout, we'll hop in the car and make a trip down your way.  I'll let you know.   

~Lannie

[Big Ugly]

So, Mama?
What are the FEDS gonna do, force laser engraving on eggs and tattoos on chicks?
How the hell are they gonna track everything?
After you eat the eggs and the chickens, maybe we should send the 'excreted remains' to them for final accounting?

[MamaLiberty]

Nobody ever said it would be practical, or even doable. Since when has that stopped anything the government idiots decided to do? Remember microstamping, "smart" guns and registered ammunition? They use whatever excuse they can find to hammer down the nails that stick up... the resisters, those who object to the chains and whips. Those who play along and at least pretend to love the pain wouldn't even really have to PLAY completely... you know what I mean? As long as they PAY, of course...

Actually, a lot of that could be done with the RFID chips and data bases. Done voluntarily, in the free market, it could improve animal husbandry in many ways. Done goon style for goon purposes that have nothing to do with improved livestock management, it's going to be another "war on..." with the same unintended consequences.

And, sending excrement to bureaucrats sounds fine to me, but they live in their own sh** 24/7, so I doubt they'd notice.   I'd rather send pointy things at high velocity myself, but I'm strange.

[Paul Bonneau]

Lannie, welcome aboard!

I'm sorry to inform you that there is no good place. There is only better and worse. And I don't think Wyoming is that much better than SD. When we were looking at states for Free State Project, SD usually came out right behind Wyoming in terms of liberty.

And having lived for 35 years in Oregon before Wyoming, I can tell you there are a lot worse places than Oregon too.

I am just warning you that any effort to upgrade your situation, from SD to Wyoming, would probably leave you kinda disappointed. If you came from New York or California, on the other hand, you probably say it was easily worth the effort.

SD going down hill? So is Wyoming, year by year.

The good news, if good it is, is that the Empire is crashing down right now. So there is going to be a big shake up. I think Wyoming and SD are going to be good places to weather the storm, and may end up with more freedom in the long run - if we are lucky, and if we are determined enough.

[Blackwolf]

You know, sometimes I complain a bit about living so far away from anything, and it IS an inconvenience when you need to have something done that you don't know how to do yourself, but... when I saw this place, I knew it was where we should be, location-wise, if the Empire ever did come crashing down.  You can see anything coming for quite a ways.  We're not anywhere near a population center, and all the ranchers that live in this area are like us.  So even though we might not NEED three horses anymore (two to ride, one to pack) because I think we're in a position to just hunker down, we still have three.  I always like to have options.

I hate being so vague about things, but sometimes I wonder who's reading these kinds of forums.  So I'm vague.  Hopefully I was also clear.   

And about Oregon.  I LOVED Oregon.  I was born and raised there.  It just got "Californicated" to the point that it was impossible to live there anymore (for us).  Everything got so expensive.  I know a lot of people - my family included - who wouldn't dream of leaving.  But I got in a snit about not being able to build a stinkin' greenhouse without a building permit and an inspection.  Then when I lost my job (a casualty of 9/11) and couldn't find anything but flipping burgers, we decided to get out.  We figured if we was gonna be poor, we might as well be poor somewhere we'd be happier.     And where we could build a greenhouse without some government official telling us how to do it.  I do miss the mountains, though.  And the forests.  And the water.  And the warmer winters.   

So if we do end up staying here, and not moving when our house is paid off, can we still be friends?  Gosh, you guys are like neighbors!

~Lannie

[MamaLiberty]

You bet! The big difference I can see is that there is a real community of like minded people here with which to be friends and neighbors. That's the most important thing to me anyway.

If we were closer I could come over and help milk, make cheese, pet the horses (I love the fool things) and we could sit and gab while we shelled peas or something... but where you are it's sort of a long hike for a good talk over the back fence.

[Blackwolf]

You bet! The big difference I can see is that there is a real community of like minded people here with which to be friends and neighbors. That's the most important thing to me anyway.

I know, and that's why we'd like to come over there.  I think I said, I got this link from someone at Frugal's forum, and they do the same thing, but they all live somewhere ELSE.  There's not another member that I know of there that lives anywhere in South Dakota or eastern Wyoming.  Their campouts are in Vermont, so no way could we even visit one of those.  That's why I was so happy to have found you guys.  At least you're closer than Vermont!  LOL!

If we were closer I could come over and help milk, make cheese, pet the horses (I love the fool things) and we could sit and gab while we shelled peas or something... but where you are it's sort of a long hike for a good talk over the back fence.

PEAS??    Surely you jest!  LOL!  I love peas, and I've tried growing them all 5 summers we've been here, but we don't have "Spring" or "Fall."  It's winter, then one day it gets hot and melts the snow, and then it's blistering until the first fall blizzard.  Last summer, I almost thought I could do it, because we had a long, wet spring and early summer.  So wet that my garden flooded (and the pasture, and we had creeks with rapids running through the shelterbelt tree rows).  So the peas drowned.  My lettuce, which was in a raised bed, did great.  I had more than I could eat.  But after the flood receded, it got hot and killed off what was left of the straggling peas, then 3 nasty hailstorms about 3 weeks apart defoliated everything else repeatedly.  South Dakota is not the place to grow a garden, I'm finding out.  But as I said, I'm stubborn, and will try again this year.   

It sure would be nice to have company during milking and all that fun "processing," though!  Sometimes I think I spend more than half my life in the kitchen, and the rest in the barn.  My house (much to my disgust) suffers terribly.  "What's on TV tonight, honey?"  "Oh, about an inch and a half of dust!"  ROFL!

~Lannie