Author Topic: The 11 Principles of Open Source Peaceful Evolution  (Read 18498 times)

Offline MamaLiberty

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Re: The 11 Principles of Open Source Peaceful Evolution
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2009, 03:58:02 PM »
That's apples and oranges, Sundog. None of us had any choice, or power over how the roads got built, or the land was acquired from others... It may well still be wrong in some ways, but we don't have the power to change it now.

We DO, however, have the direct power to decide not to steal ourselves, or participate in that current theft. We also have the choice to do everything possible NOT to be stolen from. I gave up a very good career/job and retired early for that very reason.

You very much sound as if you are grasping at straws to justify your acceptance of stolen goods. You can certainly do that if it pleases you, but I don't think you'll get too many here to agree that it is any part of liberty and justice.
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Offline kylben

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Re: The 11 Principles of Open Source Peaceful Evolution
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2009, 04:19:23 PM »
I don't think you'll get too many here to agree that it is any part of liberty and justice.

I lean towards the moral acceptability of the "drain the swamp" tactic, though perhaps on different grounds than Sundog is basing it on.  However, as Paul pointed out, it is a dangerous game vis a vis one's own independence and integrity, and has other drawbacks as well. 

Ultimately, the way out of the moral dilemmas posed by widespread moral depravity is to isolate one's self from it to such an extent that those moral dilemmas are no longer forced. For that reason, I prefer tactics that work the supply side (ala Galt's Gulch) rather than the demand side (draining the swamp). The no-magical-motor-or-invisible-force-field version of the supply-side approach is Agorism.

Either way, along the lines of my previous post about the current moral climate, I'm pretty reluctant to criticize where other honest people draw their own lines.
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Offline jubal

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Re: The 11 Principles of Open Source Peaceful Evolution
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2009, 06:31:14 PM »


   Not only are you contrary and ornery, your generous sweet and kind. Thats a good mix.
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Offline Rich

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Re: The 11 Principles of Open Source Peaceful Evolution
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2009, 06:41:56 PM »
Not only are you contrary and ornery, your generous sweet and kind. Thats a good mix.


SMOOCH... >:D
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Offline kylben

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Re: The 11 Principles of Open Source Peaceful Evolution
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2009, 07:08:16 PM »


   Not only are you contrary and ornery, your generous sweet and kind. Thats a good mix.

I take it that was aimed at MamaLiberty?  I agree.
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Offline SunDog

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Re: The 11 Principles of Open Source Peaceful Evolution
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2009, 09:51:52 PM »
We DO, however, have the direct power to decide not to steal ourselves, or participate in that current theft. We also have the choice to do everything possible NOT to be stolen from. I gave up a very good career/job and retired early for that very reason.

You very much sound as if you are grasping at straws to justify your acceptance of stolen goods. You can certainly do that if it pleases you, but I don't think you'll get too many here to agree that it is any part of liberty and justice.

I guess we will disagree, then, and that's OK too. I am not grasping at straws, as I perceive it, I am being rational. I don't think a limited government, supported by taxes on those receiving the benefits of government, contradict "liberty and justice." I do think our present government has strayed too far from the ideal, and needs to be turned in a new direction, by whatever means that work. But I do not advocate anarchy, though some here may. They're free to do so.

I wonder, if you do everything possible not to be "stolen from," how you avoid property tax, gas tax, and sales tax? You must have figured out a way to live that eludes me.

Offline kylben

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Re: The 11 Principles of Open Source Peaceful Evolution
« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2009, 06:44:07 AM »
if you do everything possible not to be "stolen from," how you avoid property tax, gas tax, and sales tax? You must have figured out a way to live that eludes me.

Aside from some small amount of sales taxes, those aren't part of "everything possible"... yet. Workin' on it.
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Offline MamaLiberty

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Re: The 11 Principles of Open Source Peaceful Evolution
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2009, 06:57:30 AM »
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how you avoid property tax, gas tax, and sales tax?

Let's see... I moved to Wyoming.
My property tax fell from several thousand to a few hundred a year. check
I drive about 100 miles a month since I retired - or less - instead of 300 miles a day when I was working. I drive a car that gets 36 MPG. Less gas, less tax. check
I use barter, buy used, make my own and so forth as much as possible. Oh, and Wyoming has much lower sales tax. check

And, as kylben says, we're working hard to reduce all those. Our mutual aid community here helps a lot.
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Offline Vince

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Re: The 11 Principles of Open Source Peaceful Evolution
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2009, 07:03:01 AM »
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I guess we will disagree, then, and that's OK too. I am not grasping at straws, as I perceive it, I am being rational. I don't think a limited government, supported by taxes on those receiving the benefits of government, contradict "liberty and justice." I do think our present government has strayed too far from the ideal, and needs to be turned in a new direction, by whatever means that work. But I do not advocate anarchy, though some here may. They're free to do so.

I hope Rod Whitaker's ghost will forgive me here but you draw shades of distinction which, I confess, are lost on me.  They are only benefits if they are voluntary choices.  Taxes are not voluntary no matter what arbitrary good you assign them to do.  Those property taxes we pay on land stolen from whomever (and lets face it, we can dive back a LONG way in history to play that game; Angles, Saxons, and Jutes pushed Celts and Welsh back to find their space just as Normans did to those same Anglo-Saxons generations later) also support the same corrupt institutions we are discussing.  I do not believe in racial guilt.  I had no hand in the theft of lands before my time, I can only live a moral life of my own since it is the only one rightfully under my control.

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Considering how much scorn the "FRN" receives in libertarian circles as "not really money," I am surprised at how resolved they are not to receive it at the hands of the government that prints it. And yet, they willingly partake of so many of the little benefits that government provides.

What would you have us do my friend?  Levitate and fly our way across this land?  If that were possible I would certainly do so and deny the extra support they get from the tolls.  Are you telling me you've never heard of alternative ways of managing roads?  They do not have to be government owned any more than our money must be the exclusive domain of government.

Unless I am misreading you Chris, you seem to be catching a whiff of hypocrisy where none exists.  We have, all of us, found ourselves in the place and time we are born in.  It does no good to blame grandpop for not shooting the bastards back when they had a chance to put 'em down good and proper.  That was tried in 1861 and to our greater distress today, it failed.

So?  We choose not to give up.  We have six thousand years of control freaks and sickos with no other idea but to make their way in the world on somebody's back not their own and oh, by the way, the power wielded felt so good too.

The entire six thousand year history has been one huge campaign for and against personal liberty.  Speaking only for myself I see no benefit derived from the institution of the state that could not be better provided and cheaper by the open market.  Freedom does not frighten me and I'm not ashamed to admit I've made mistakes.
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But Vince, people like you who give (under duress, I admit) and refuse to take are just the kind of people the government needs to make the current system go on and on.

I disagree here in the strongest terms.  I have known people all my life who see nothing wrong with collecting all the various government welfare available (under whatever term it is being called) because they paid in and are collecting "what's theirs".  Finally, some of us are awakening to different possibilities and following a principle like non aggression (in this case, refusing to accept stolen goods) in never an incorrect position to take.  In the process of this journey we must unfortunately learn from mistakes but this too can be a good thing.

As long as we learn.

Vince
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Offline SunDog

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Re: The 11 Principles of Open Source Peaceful Evolution
« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2009, 11:42:12 AM »
I had no hand in the theft of lands before my time, I can only live a moral life of my own since it is the only one rightfully under my control.

I quite agree. That's why I don't worry about it. I just don't live under an illusion that I don't benefit from "receiving stolen goods."

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What would you have us do my friend?  Levitate and fly our way across this land?  If that were possible I would certainly do so and deny the extra support they get from the tolls.  

Well it is possible, just difficult. Get an ultralight (non-licensed) aircraft and some off-road (non-taxed) gas.... As much fun as that would be, I won't bother because I don't mind paying gas taxes for the roads I use.

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Are you telling me you've never heard of alternative ways of managing roads?  They do not have to be government owned any more than our money must be the exclusive domain of government.

No, I've never heard of alternative ways of managing roads - at least until after the government uses its muscle to seize the lands they're built on. It kind of reminds me of the new Denver ball stadium. They bought all the land to build it, until one guy held out (for a lot of money) with one small piece of land near home plate. Then they brought in the big guns of government to seize it and compensate the former owner for a much smaller price. What would "libertarian" roads look like, if they had to divert around every patch of ground that a recalcitrant owner refused to sell?

BTW, in Wyoming, the government grants private interests the right to use eminent domain. Check out http://www.wyominglandowners.org/help/index.php. You'll see that if a commercial interest needs your land to make their business interest go, they can take with the help of the government. Wyoming is a great place to live, but it isn't perfect.

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Unless I am misreading you Chris, you seem to be catching a whiff of hypocrisy where none exists.  

Well, no, I won't go that far. It isn't hypocrisy. Perhaps it's not thinking through the matter all the way. Or maybe you've thought it through so much farther than I have that you've attained a new state of enlightenment.

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The entire six thousand year history has been one huge campaign for and against personal liberty.  Speaking only for myself I see no benefit derived from the institution of the state that could not be better provided and cheaper by the open market.  Freedom does not frighten me and I'm not ashamed to admit I've made mistakes.

Freedom doesn't frighten me, and neither does the prospect of a properly limited government. Let's define terms here - I mean government that has the right to use force for certain strictly defined (and limited) goals. For example, executing a murderer (after due process, of course). Or seizing land for certain purposes (like straight roads) after full public discourse, consideration of alternatives, and full just compensation (for the land and the inconvenience).

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Finally, some of us are awakening to different possibilities and following a principle like non aggression (in this case, refusing to accept stolen goods) in never an incorrect position to take.
You mean "refusing to accept stolen good as long as it's not too inconvenient," don't you? Or do you accept the fact that you must pay tax when you buy gas for your vehicle, so you might as well drive on the roads? (I do.) I see no difference in deciding that I paid in to Social Security, so I might as well take it. And I'll take energy credits for my home improvements, etc.

Would I vote to eliminate Social Security? Yes I would. But I would expect the government to print up some more FRNs and reimburse me for what I put in, less what I took out. That shouldn't bother most libertarians. They would only pay me in FRNs, not real money like gold.

So obviously we disagree in philosophy, by a good bit. But what of tactics? Do you expect your tactic of minimal tax payments with refusal to accept government money to work well? I think "drain the swamp" - a variation of "bring it all down" - will work better.

Chris


Offline Vince

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Re: The 11 Principles of Open Source Peaceful Evolution
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2009, 02:38:00 PM »
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I had no hand in the theft of lands before my time, I can only live a moral life of my own since it is the only one rightfully under my control.

I quite agree. That's why I don't worry about it. I just don't live under an illusion that I don't benefit from "receiving stolen goods."

How very convenient for you.

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Wyoming is a great place to live, but it isn't perfect.

I don't recall saying that it was.

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No, I've never heard of alternative ways of managing roads - at least until after the government uses its muscle to seize the lands they're built on.

Well then, I envy the educational road ahead of you; you've a lot of reading to catch up on.  Roads have been privately managed quite effectively throughout history but then you will discover that in your own time.

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Well, no, I won't go that far. It isn't hypocrisy. Perhaps it's not thinking through the matter all the way. Or maybe you've thought it through so much farther than I have that you've attained a new state of enlightenment.

And I have no idea what that means except it's a suspiciously glib tone of voice I haven't used with you.  In fact you've been using that tone since you joined this discussion and not just with me.

So you've convinced yourself that your not delusional about all these wonderful benefits.  Bully for you Chris.  Personally I think you're sounding more and more like a troll and I'm finished with feeding you fuel for your broadsides.
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Offline rhodges

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Re: The 11 Principles of Open Source Peaceful Evolution
« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2009, 03:05:41 PM »
It seems to me that this is turning into a "I'm more libertarian than you!" debate.

I remember that the original Yahoo groups mailing list for FSW specifically mentioned this (no "I'm more libertarian than you") but a search on the current forum comes up empty.  Well, at least until this message is posted  :)

Can't we stay focused on the real enemy?  ("The People's Front of Judea?" Or was it the "Judean People's Front"?)

Even if we don't agree on the long-term wish list, can we at least agree on the short term goals of reducing government and improving our individual freedoms where possible?

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Offline Vince

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Re: The 11 Principles of Open Source Peaceful Evolution
« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2009, 04:35:35 PM »
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Even if we don't agree on the long-term wish list, can we at least agree on the short term goals of reducing government and improving our individual freedoms where possible?

I'll go along with that. ~W~
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Offline SunDog

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Re: The 11 Principles of Open Source Peaceful Evolution
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2009, 04:54:21 PM »
Sorry if I riled people up. I wasn't sure what was meant by "troll" so I looked it up:

"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion." - Wikipedia

It wasn't my intent to be inflammatory or off-topic. I started by suggest the "drain the swamp" tactic as one that works against a socialist state. It was MamaLiberty that suggested I was advocating thievery, and I reacted to that.

I accept the statement from rhodges that we agree on the short term goals of reducing government and improving our individual freedoms.

Offline Boston

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Re: The 11 Principles of Open Source Peaceful Evolution
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2009, 12:38:39 PM »
Really, that's quite enough of this topic drift and sawdust sawing.

I quote 11 Principles obviously meant as general advice, and they're argued to bits.
Then ensued a battle of personalities.
Just great. 

Rich rightfully used this thread as an example of what frustrates him:
http://www.fundamentalsoffreedom.com/fswforum/index.php?topic=8378.msg71374#msg71374

Rhodges, thanks for your intervening post of wisdom.  It's a good place to end this thread.
Now, some folks will have more time to work for freedom.

What I may do is create a new board (stuck in a dank corner) entitled:

                       "Pointless Arguments Between Strangers, for Those Who Have The Time"

. . . and just start shoveling certain posts/threads into that.

I'm really getting tired of endless philosophical bitch sessions, especially with newbies of
single digit posts. 

Boston