Prospective Free State Wyoming (FSW) Members and Interested Parties > Prospective Free State Wyoming (FSW) Members and Interested Parties
The 11 Principles of Open Source Peaceful Evolution
Future/Now:
--- Quote from: Paul Bonneau on September 24, 2009, 07:45:45 PM ---I have been pushing the line of thought recently, that it is not necessary to convert all these people who are supportive or dependent on the state. It's a very long row to hoe to get them to accept freedom. However, it is a much smaller job to get them to leave us alone.
Many leftists, for example (paradoxically) have the view that they are non-violent. Now, one tack would be to belittle this belief, and try to point out how absurd it is. But is that the best course? Why not instead, take advantage of this view of theirs, and use it to our advantage. Say to them, "Since you don't approve of violence, then I assume you won't get violent with me if I choose not to participate in your version of political paradise. If you let me opt out, I will then stop agitating against your views. We can live in peace. This means of course that you cannot tax me or force me to do this or that, because force implies violence. But you are non-violent so you should have no problem with that, right?"
--- End quote ---
Well, you could certainly try that, although it's debatable how far you'd get. Lefties are generally nonviolent only as long as you "play nice" and agree with all their bullshite. Better to just leave 'em without a word, move as far away as possible and be done with it.
To them, things like logic, reason, independence, etc are unequivocally foreign concepts. In fact, the mere mention of them is a mortal threat to their way of life slavery, which they've collectively shown time and again they will defend at any cost with damn near religious zeal. Freedom lovers might as well be parasites that only want to suck away every last drop of the brainwash potion that courses through their veins. Without that vital nourishment, how could they possibly sustain themselves? :o When faced with the possibility of actually getting a clue, and having to decide (for themselves, naturally) between that and perpetual cluelessness, their heads might explode! Not that the loss would really be all that great, mind you....>:D
Paul Bonneau:
--- Quote ---Well, you could certainly try that, although it's debatable how far you'd get. Lefties are generally nonviolent only as long as you "play nice" and agree with all their bullshite
--- End quote ---
.
However far one would get with this, it is certain that one would get farther than arguing they should become free.
Anyway, it is not hopeless. On that homeschool list in Oregon I used to post on, we got into a discussion about gun control. One woman, who is a Quaker and therefore of course nonviolent, was a proponent of gun control because "guns mean violence", etc. I carefully and respectfully pointed out that her stand was a violent one, because it involved government agents attacking anyone who refused to give up their guns. She finally came around - not to the point that she wanted to be a gun owner, nor even to the point that it was OK that other people were gun owners. But she did get to the point of admitting gun control was violent, and said (in effect) she would no longer support it. And she said she would pray for the time I gave up my guns voluntarily. :)
It helped that she and I saw eye to eye on things like homeschooling and Imperial foreign policy (i.e., constant war).
--- Quote ---To them, things like logic, reason, independence, etc are unequivocally foreign concepts.
--- End quote ---
It's funny, I've heard "liberals" and leftists make exactly the same comment about conservatives and libertarians. :D
elk:
--- Quote ---Quote
To them, things like logic, reason, independence, etc are unequivocally foreign concepts.
It's funny, I've heard "liberals" and leftists make exactly the same comment about conservatives and libertarians. Cheesy
--- End quote ---
Problem is something else altogether. Problem is that reason as a word has been bastardized, it has had its meaning subverted, modified, changed, removed and replaced... Reason has been lobotomized by the brainwashers in politics and bureaucracy. Reason can mean reason, or it can mean the ability to compromise out of cowardice or some other form of fear. Indeed, "reasonable" has been changed to mean "amenable." Interesting how the "neue sprache" has come into being as per Eric Blair's vision (some of you know him by his pen name, George Orwell.)
Rather than see reason as a cause and effect and understanding thereof, they see reason as being able to give in to the demands of bandits or thugs in order to minimize conflict.
I side with Heinlein here... "peace is overrated." If the price of peace is eternal slavery... I'd sooner fight. Not die, mind you, but sooner fight, suffer and then WIN. A life lived in slavery to creatures I dearly detest with every part of my mind that I can be aware of, is not a life, but an lasting conscious death. A life spent fighting, at least animates the mind, and the body.
Or to put it in feminine terms, "if the price of peace, is submitting to rape, on demand by the rapist, whenever, and wherever and on whatever terms the rapist desires, then no, I would rather fight, even if the penalty for failing to win is death. Not fighting is certain death by a thousand cuts (or in this case, rapes)... no thanks to that.
-----------------------
To put it in terms one can understand... I had surgery some years back. A fairly harmless procedure to clean up some damaged tissue, which then required a drain "fuse" (a fairly large one, and some stitches... 2 sessions worth, plus removal.)
Doc then tells me "you have to remove the fuse yourself, once it stops draining, after a few days, unless you want to pay for an extra visit, during which I will remove it, and then let it sit for another day, unhindered to dry up a little, then come in to get stitched up."
So after wandering about with a bloody bandage pouring out blood and... serum from the wound, I had to pull it out. I tried removing it, and discovered it was a bandage in a tender area with wounded tissue... very painful. The wound was still raw, and i had friends and family offering to help me remove it. I cowered for days pondering how to remove it once it stopped draining.
And then I had to make a choice. Be fearful of a quick bit of pain, or let that bandage rot in there, cause me further infection and perhaps a far more invasive procedure to cut out far more meat than I had lost in that small procedure. So I steeled myself, closed my teeth in case I might bite down and catch my tongue, and YANKED. And it hurt like hell! Sharp, agonizing pain. And since there was almost 2 feet of gauze stuffed into a 2 to 3 inch hole in my muscle, I proceeded to YANK again. After I was done pulling the bloody 'fuse' out... I was PROUD of myself. I didn't ask for anyone else's help. I did it myself. Therein lies the difference, to me reason wasn't the lack of pain in the process of making myself healthy. Reason was the ability to understand that short temporary pain, beats a permanent recurring infectious issue. So I was willing to suffer once to not suffer repeatedly in the future. This is what the collectivists don't get. If there wasn't a doctor there, or if I couldn't afford the extra visit, then being able to undergo pain at my own hands to avoid reinfection or further complications is an application of reason.
Collectivists can't do that. Pain scares them, risk scares them. They scare all of us, but a man of reason will not run away from risk, or from pain. Because a man of reason understands the greater implications of things. A collectivist or "amenable" man will surrender the moment the risk for pain, or the risk for loss is implied. He will also surrender the moment he is told to, because he is a coward. Cowards, as one says, die every day. A brave man only dies once. A wise or powerful man gets to pick when and where, and the TRULY powerful one figures out what the rest of us are still struggling with... that being, the process to not dying at all, or making death inconsequential to that individual. Not a single one of these will occur to the collectivist weakling, because he dies everyday, and yet still fears death, pain, or harm, despite subjecting himself to them every single day... willingly, out of his sheer fear of actually LIVING.
Meanwhile, I have dealt with having pain from a surgery and the process in cutting, stuffing, unstuffing, suturing and removing said sutures... and it did hurt, some parts more than others. I'm not afraid of it any longer... that's for sure. The collectivist cowards, afraid of a bit of minor pain, will let anyone else fight for them, and will only fight if "its safe." They fear shedding blood, even of their food, but are ok if someone else shoulders that burden. Collectivists of all stripes are merely the latest breed of insanity plaguing those of us having a go at being sane and living life... each his own life...
MamaLiberty:
Very good, elk. Well said.
SteveM:
--- Quote from: Paul Bonneau on September 24, 2009, 07:45:45 PM ---
I have been pushing the line of thought recently, that it is not necessary to convert all these people who are supportive or dependent on the state. It's a very long row to hoe to get them to accept freedom. However, it is a much smaller job to get them to leave us alone.
Many leftists, for example (paradoxically) have the view that they are non-violent. Now, one tack would be to belittle this belief, and try to point out how absurd it is. But is that the best course? Why not instead, take advantage of this view of theirs, and use it to our advantage. Say to them, "Since you don't approve of violence, then I assume you won't get violent with me if I choose not to participate in your version of political paradise. If you let me opt out, I will then stop agitating against your views. We can live in peace. This means of course that you cannot tax me or force me to do this or that, because force implies violence. But you are non-violent so you should have no problem with that, right?"
--- End quote ---
If this would work I'm all for it. But can they leave us alone? I wonder. They may profess non-violence but what they mean is they are too squeamish to commit violence themselves. So they pay others to do it for them as long as they don't actually have to witness it. The left and the neo-cons just can't leave anyone alone who aren't like them. It's a phobia as though the existence of anyone free is an utter repudiation of everything they believe and are. I hope I'm wrong about this but I believe in the end they just can't.
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