Utah looking at Wyoming

[username]

Oh, I found the S-of-I agreement stuff that talks about update of status... looks like I may be close.

@Bobcat, what a great interrogative!!  Thank you so much for prompting an intellectual debate!!  Utah isn't such a bad place for business if you're "one of the boys" (i.e. Mormon), but I'm not.  I do however deal with the general business population on a regular basis, and if you're not "in the club", buying your stairway to heaven so to speak, you are at an automatic disadvantage (usually).  Business aside, I have scant complaint about the outdoors and recreational opportunities here.  I love the Utah hippies, but am caught between worlds when it comes to conducting business (interacting with Utah's rich, white, homophobic, LDS population) and recreation (getting as far away from them as possible).

There is one specific aspect of Utah's statehood that I am not a fan of.  Mormons on-list, prepare to be further offended... sorry, it's just who I am, and I am a product of my experience(s).

When Utah joined the Union under the duress of Federal intervention (polygamy and taxes and all that) it was a clear statement that after all of their persecution, travail, hardship and loss across the plains from Missouri to proclaim Zion and all it's blessings... it was still only a temporary, tentative stab at real freedom.  The Mormon Militia was a short-lived pipe dream of Brigham Young against the Federal 50-cal's and cannons, etc that came and "established" statehood for the Mormons.  Today the FBI is populated largely by Mormon men who are of ubiquitous "Yessir!" mentality -- and that translates clearly through their day to day affairs here.  In my own vernacular, I refer to them as a "bunch of pussies" afraid to make ripples, much less waves.

Yes, Utah is a conservative state "today" while our general shop-buy gas-watch a movie-eat ice cream values remain unchallenged, but the minute a federal presence steps in and says jump... on the way up, the Mormon Church will ask "how high?"  I have absolutely zero relation to racial preference, but will use it here as an example.  Not long ago it became "unpopular" to discriminate based on skin color, and the Mormon governance found it in their best social interest to summon "divine intervention" to allow black men to hold the previously exclusive "Priesthood".  What better example of bullshit, political spinelessness could be found.  Like I said, I don't give a shit one way or the other what color your skin is, or what your sexual preference is, etc... as long as you stay true to the values that you proclaim and not sell-out at the hint of Federal threat or reward.  Utah has officially done it at least four times historically (twice just this year with their infantile Proposition-8 backpedaling, and permissions to store Nuclear Waste) , and I personally find it disgusting.

We do have a peculiarly unique 2nd Amendment stature that is a bit of a mystery to me despite my previous commentary, but I personally do not trust it further than I can throw it.  Until then, and likely long after, I will continue to exercise my rights -- 2nd Amendment and otherwise... Wyoming is looking pretty good these days!

Best,
JP

[bobcat]

Thanks for the frank reply, JP.  Much appreciated.
 
While we've always enjoyed Utah, recreation-wise, I always wondered what it would be like doing business there if one is not 'in the crowd' Mormon-wise.  Over the years, I've gotten stray comments here and there about the 'unique advantages' of being Mormon in Utah and the distinct disadvantages, including out and out shunning.  That has given cause for considerable hesitation, even if neighbors are 'conservative'... 

[manfromnevada]

I guess the church connection is like the "good ol boy's club" on steroids.

I've had nothing but good experiences with Mormons. The last time I drove back home from Lander I stopped off at a place where Mormons passed thru with their hand carts. A nice, privately funded, museum and such. Here in Wyoming. Devil's Gate or something. It was a weekend, only one only car of visitors. I stepped out of my car, Glock on hip, and proceeded to head toward the entrance. I was met by a man in a suit, a Mormon, and later his wife. They were very friendly. Never batted an eye at my companion, Mr. Glock. Later I talked to his wife. Only upon me bringing it up did they say that the man always carried as well as most of the men their. Self defense is a big deal with them, and rightly so.

I also like the idea of self sufficiency. Evidently their doctrine says to have a year of food on hand.

But certainly if they control the political and economic climate then that is always subject to abuse. I'm not wild about traveling thru UT anyway. You can't carry OC with it loaded in the car. Only unloaded. What's the sense in that? Use it as a club?

Yeah, I'll take Wyoming any day over ANY other state. It's not perfect here, but it beats the next best thing.

Mac

[walterc]

As a former Utahn (we make the annual family reunion pilgramage back behind the Zion Curtain every June), might I say "been there done that".  We left in '98 after our kids were all gone and we were tired of paying Wyoming Non-Resident hunting fees and hunting deer in Utah is a risky proposition at best.

And as far as the local political climate goes, my impression has always been that the separation of Church and State in Utah can be measured in a couple of city blocks.  Back in my younger days I remember the legislature taking the liquor by the drink legislation and "running it past the church authorities". 

We made a February trip from Salt Lake to Sheridan.  Not too bad at the time.  Picked a good weekend I guess.

We are in Gillette, close to Sundance and not far from Newcastle.  Sorry we don't have a lot of room (in the middle of remodeling), but we're certainly up for a meet and greet when you get here.

[username]

@manfromnevada,
Oh Utah Mormon's are pretty friendly on the surface that's for sure.  And I hate to generalize that 'all of them' are the same because of course that is never the case with any group.  But it's generally true that unless you are one of them, it's hard to have any meaningful social or business connections.

...about carrying in your vehicle through Utah -- Utah considers your vehicle the same as your home (for residents) with or without a permit, and has a "Peaceable Journey" law that allows non-residents with CWP's from any state to carry  open or concealed, and loaded.  Utah will validate any CWP from any other state.  I have heard stories about law enforcement officers who will tell you this is not true and try to arrest / confiscate based on their individual "idea" of the law.  But it is pretty well spelled out in the Utah Code.  Also to note, the specifics of "loaded" are different than what may be commonly understood.  Loaded in Utah is defined by only ONE action to fire (i.e. pulling the trigger).  Which means that you can carry a double-action autoloader with a fully charged mag, but no round chambered -- or a single-action autoloader with a decocking lever WITH a round chambered.  Since it requires cocking and / or racking and then pulling the trigger it is not defined as "loaded".

However, if you do not have a CWP, then you must follow the Utah definition of "Securely Encased"
76-10-501 (18) "Securely encased" means not readily accessible for immediate use, such as held in a gun rack, or in a closed case or container, whether or not locked, or in a trunk or other storage area of a motor vehicle, not including a glove box or console box.

Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street
http://www.le.utah.gov/UtahCode/getCodeSection?code=76-10-505

When weapon deemed loaded
http://www.le.utah.gov/UtahCode/getCodeSection?code=76-10-502

Possession of loaded firearm at residence or on real property authorized
http://www.le.utah.gov/UtahCode/getCodeSection?code=76-10-511

This is a decent link to compare the basics on a state-by-state view:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_(by_state)

JP

[manfromnevada]

JP,
Exactly my point. I don't "do" CWP or CCW or any other "permit". So unlike WY, NV, MT, AZ, NM, etc. I cannot drive around in my vehicle in UT and open carry.

Mac

[Brandy]

Today the FBI is populated largely by Mormon men who are of ubiquitous "Yessir!" mentality -- and that translates clearly through their day to day affairs here.  In my own vernacular, I refer to them as a "bunch of pussies" afraid to make ripples, much less waves.

Ha ha   as a former Mormom I agree.  I have received the dreaded letter that you have been excommunicated because I became a Catholic.

Brandy