Author Topic: Social liberty/libertarianism? Foreign policy?  (Read 21285 times)

Offline Liberty99

  • Reader
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Re: Social liberty/libertarianism? Foreign policy?
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2010, 06:22:31 AM »
Yes, many people, including murderers, rapists, corrupt politicians, etc., should be treated as pariahs to some extent or another.  However, if you're a normal, innocent person who can raise a family just fine and are a productive member of society, I don't see how being gay, straight, bi, whatever should matter to anyone else.  That's my limit.  You should be judged, rightly so, for things that involve aggression and the initiation of force against others as well as denying others' rights.  But certain private practices or preferences I'm not big on judging people for as long as they're good, hardworking folk.

Offline Liberty99

  • Reader
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Re: Social liberty/libertarianism? Foreign policy?
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2010, 06:24:16 AM »
And when I say "judge," I mean in terms of right and wrong.  Not in terms of preference.  You can think what you want about how gross or nasty or weird a certain behavior is, but as long as it's consensual among the adults involved, and no one's harmed, saying "this is wrong", esp. if you use religion as a reason, seems a little backwards to me.  I'm sorry if that offends you, but just that's my belief.

Offline John

  • FSW Associate
  • **
  • Posts: 860
  • Wyoming Housing Provider
Re: Social liberty/libertarianism? Foreign policy?
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2010, 01:44:05 PM »
Quote
Big business can be just as detrimental to our freedoms and livelihoods at times as big government.
I heartily disagree. I see a large difference between being tasered, tortured, tethered, taxed, and trapped vs. being... what?  Charged a high price?  Waiting a long time in the check-out line?  What really is the worst thing a Big Scary Business can do to you?

This seems similar to your demand that sexual deviants be not looked down upon. I see a big difference between being frowned at and being trapped in a concrete cage for the rest of my life. Libertarianism does not define right and wrong. It defines the permissible circumstances to use violence, aka the gov't. If you really think that the only things which are wrong are those acts which initiate force, then yes, you are a libertine philosophically.

Yes, homosexuality is wrong. Incivility, crudeness, promiscuity, being a drunk, all these things are wrong. They are bad. Our buddy, The State, should not be involved. Victimless crimes are not crimes at all.  But you seem to be demanding tolerance, acceptance, and embrace for bad and destructive behavior. That is a recipe for disaster.

No offense has taken place, and no reason to be sorry.   

Offline Liberty99

  • Reader
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Re: Social liberty/libertarianism? Foreign policy?
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2010, 11:23:31 PM »
Well, I can think of a few.  What about the risks of offshore drilling and the recent BP oil spill disaster?  If BP knew there was no legal authority to take them to task for screwing up, what reason would they have to be careful, so long as they get all the oil in the ocean possible?  Things like strict liability obligations if screwups occur as well as compensating those affected, such as fishermen, are sometimes necessary.  Or how about if a company dumps in your local lake or river, for example? Now, I know all about Ronald Coase and his study about property rights, but from what I've gathered, it would seem very difficult for a town to actually negotiate, esp. if it has millions of citizens with NO gov't, with a big corporation that makes billions. 
I'm not so sure voluntary agreements and the market would always work in the absence of a legal authority to punish negligence, fraud, etc.  Maybe I just don't understand all the intricacies, but I think anarcho-capitalism has too much blind faith in the market.  As much as I like the free market, I'm a bit more moderate in this regard.  I think there surely are a few cases of reasonably-defined market failures and times when a little regulation here and there is needed to fix a problem.  The companies don't ALWAYS have the incentive or reason to act responsibly.  Sometimes they screw up.  Market fundamentalism seems to me to be just as bad for our cause as gov't fundamentalism for so-called welfare liberals.  Or neocons.

Well, I guess I should've elaborated a little more on morality and complexities. My mistake.  I did mention the utmost importance of responsibility in my first post, btw.  Yes, I do also look down upon things like incivility, crudeness, etc.  Promiscuity, it depends. I don't encourage it, esp. without protection, but if they're responsible enough to be a little promiscuous, with protection of course, and handle their other life duties, who am I to get in the way or make a big deal?  I don't encourage it, but if a few people out of a million are promiscuous and safe, that's a risk I'm willing to take for a free society.

Maybe it's just a difference in our personalities that's the biggest issue here.  I like to think a lot, esp. about empirics, economics and politics.  I have a very analytical mind, so I question things a lot.  And things, esp. so-called moral codes that don't make sense to me, like calling homosexuality wrong, makes no sense to me.  You have every right to have your opinions, but I just don't care for this notion among many Americans that we should cling to certain traditions that really make no sense.  Tradition for tradition's sake, if you ask me, is dumb, quite frankly.  If you wanna uphold a tradition, at least one that tells people how to behave or what's "wrong" or "right", you need a greater reasoning.  Unless it's something real harmless and practically pointless like a bar mitzvah, clinging to a tradition can be detrimental to society, like the tradition of slavery we didn't abolish until at least the Civil War era.  Or things like segregation. 

Offline Liberty99

  • Reader
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Re: Social liberty/libertarianism? Foreign policy?
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2010, 11:34:34 PM »
I just came up with another scenario: takings.  Let's say there's no one to stand in the way between a business that wants to expand and the fact that you live where they want to expand.  In an anarchist society, theoretically there'd be really no one to stop them from bulldozing your house and property and just setting up shop there.  They wouldn't even have to compensate you.  Now, maybe the citizens who hear about it could be armed and may threaten the business owners if they try, but for simplicity's sake, let's say they didn't bother buying any handguns (or any weapons, for that matter) yet.  What, then?  Are they just gonna all say to the business owner, "Let's sit down and discuss this rationally and come to a fair agreement"?  Unless the townspeople propose something like giving the company a huge bribe (or something similar), I don't see any way around this abuse.  Who's going to stop them without some kind of legal  or forceful obligation to respect property rights?

Not everyone is willing or might consider it in their best interests to voluntarily contract with someone else.  I think anarcho-capitalism and other "libertarian" strands of anarchist thought put too much faith in voluntarism and cooperation among people.  Not everyone is willing or will honestly cooperate.  That's why I think anarchism, esp. in highly-advanced large nations like the U.S., is mostly theoretical and utopian.  I'm not so sure an anarchist society would pan out well.

Offline sbeckman

  • FSW Associate
  • **
  • Posts: 941
  • FFL Type 01
    • L&M Precision
Re: Social liberty/libertarianism? Foreign policy?
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2010, 11:37:29 PM »
Quote
what reason would they have to be careful, so long as they get all the oil in the ocean possible? 

Because by not being careful they lose a f*ing! bunch of oil and all the money they could make on it???,
have to pay billions out of their potential profits, get a damn bad name in the public eye, endanger further drilling opportunities, etc. etc.

(Geez, the downsides to such a disaster for everyone practically write themselves)????

Oh yeah, they purposely created this just to get away with it because there was "...no legal authority to take them to task for screwing up".

Gimme a break.

Did they F*ck up?  They sure as hell did.  Did they plan to, or try to, as is alluded to??
Hell no!

You guys probably think the airlines like to see planes crash for the same kinds of reasons?

The distaste for capitalism is incredible here????  The libs on the left could learn a trick or two from this forum!



No, I'm not cynical. Oh No.
www.landmprecisiongunworks.com/
FFL Type 01

Offline MamaLiberty

  • FSW Founding Member, In Wyoming
  • ****
  • Posts: 9,520
  • Self ownership/ personal responsibility
    • The Price of Liberty.org
Re: Social liberty/libertarianism? Foreign policy?
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2010, 05:38:29 AM »
You guys probably think the airlines like to see planes crash for the same kinds of reasons?

The distaste for capitalism is incredible here????  The libs on the left could learn a trick or two from this forum!

"You guys?" I don't see most of us on this forum taking that stand. One person posting doesn't make a forum. Some of the rest of us quit even trying to talk about this sort of thing here for other reasons. Come visit "The Mental Militia" if you want to talk to a bunch of anarcho-capitalists - and about a dozen other varieties of libertarian and anarchist.
It's not that people are dumber, it's that stupidity used to be more painful.

Offline Stratispho

  • FSW Member, Wyoming Bound
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,230
  • Google Voluntaryism
    • Facebook
Re: Social liberty/libertarianism? Foreign policy?
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2010, 03:22:04 PM »
Well, I can think of a few.  What about the risks of offshore drilling and the recent BP oil spill disaster?  If BP knew there was no legal authority to take them to task for screwing up, what reason would they have to be careful, so long as they get all the oil in the ocean possible?  Things like strict liability obligations if screwups occur as well as compensating those affected, such as fishermen, are sometimes necessary.  can be detrimental to society, like the tradition of slavery we didn't abolish until at least the Civil War era.  Or things like segregation. 

So if the US Fed government pushes a company to drill out in the middle of the ocean, then writes all the rules on how they can drill, then inspects their drilling and certifies that it's safe... How is the company solely to blame?

Me thinks you may want to read up more on how a free society may work. And I use the term may because know one knows for sure. I only know that I'll keep arguing for more freedom until I get it or I'm dead.
I pledge allegiance to liberty and justice for all, and pledge perpetual opposition to the Republic of the United States, and to the control and tyranny for which it stands.

Offline Ed

  • Casual Observer
  • **
  • Posts: 35
Re: Social liberty/libertarianism? Foreign policy?
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2010, 08:14:02 PM »
Liberty99,

your positions are way too rational, reasonable, level-headed and truthful to ever be popular with libertarians, from what I've seen in the movement.

Offline Stratispho

  • FSW Member, Wyoming Bound
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,230
  • Google Voluntaryism
    • Facebook
Re: Social liberty/libertarianism? Foreign policy?
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2010, 08:44:26 PM »
I pledge allegiance to liberty and justice for all, and pledge perpetual opposition to the Republic of the United States, and to the control and tyranny for which it stands.

Offline John

  • FSW Associate
  • **
  • Posts: 860
  • Wyoming Housing Provider
Re: Social liberty/libertarianism? Foreign policy?
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2010, 10:00:54 PM »
Liberty99,

Just to emphasize again, I am a complete social libertarian. 100%.  See here, for instance. Legalize it, legalize it all!  That's my motto. But that doesn't mean "embrace it, embrace it all".  Libertarianism is only about politics, not general morality.  I was trying to explain that to godscarp in that old thread who was coming at it from the other side -- behaviors x, y, and z are wrong, so we shouldn't legalize them. You are saying that because we should legalize x, y, and z, they can't be wrong. Both of these extremes are in error. There are two issues that must be bifurcated, not fused together: morality and legality. Some behaviors are morally wrong, but aggress against no one and should be legally OK.

You think opposition to homosexuality is irrational and baseless.  Yet, homosexuality, if adopted and practiced, amounts to species suicide. That seems like a rational and well-grounded reason to oppose its spread and see any increasing popularity of the lifestyle as unfortunate.

Offline John

  • FSW Associate
  • **
  • Posts: 860
  • Wyoming Housing Provider
Re: Social liberty/libertarianism? Foreign policy?
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2010, 10:07:17 PM »
Regarding the Big Scary Business Threat, let me just say:

Mises.org, Mises.org, Mises.org!!!!!

Offline DarkSide

  • FSW Member, In Wyoming
  • ****
  • Posts: 161
Re: Social liberty/libertarianism? Foreign policy?
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2010, 09:00:58 AM »
You think opposition to homosexuality is irrational and baseless.  Yet, homosexuality, if adopted and practiced, amounts to species suicide. That seems like a rational and well-grounded reason to oppose its spread and see any increasing popularity of the lifestyle as unfortunate.

The key word, as mentioned before, is RESPONSIBILITY.  As in the PERSONAL kind.  To put it succinctly (possibly a bit graphic, sorry), if a man wishes to place his manhood where another man evacuates his bowels, that's his business.  I find it disgusting beyond measure, but as long as I don't have to see it or hear about it I'm mostly unaffected by it.  The real problem comes when I'm expected to pay for the inevitable results, through the extortion of tax money and increased medical premiums, etc.  People can try heroin and meth all they like, but shouldn't expect others to pay for their rehab.  The idea that alcoholism, drug addiction, homosexuality and any number of other vices are diseases, genetic predilections or anything other than lack of self control or poor judgment/choice of lifestyle is ridiculous.  Bottom line is - if you're only hurting yourself, fine.  Do what you want.  But making someone else pay for the results of your misbehavior or otherwise clean up your mess is HURTING them.  Expecting those same people to embrace and celebrate your condition goes beyond the bounds of reason, yet this seems to be exactly what is expected by many of the so called "gay rights" organizations.  Heartless?  Perhaps.  I'm afraid the path my life has taken has left me with a very low tolerance for BS.  Selfish?  Damn right!  I have enough to do taking care of those I love and helping those I consider deserving.  Being bled by irresponsible leeches and parasites sets my teeth on edge every time.  Whew, end of rant, sorry I blew up.  Please don't consider this rant aimed at anyone in particular here.
DS

Offline LisaIA

  • Social Type
  • ****
  • Posts: 228
Re: Social liberty/libertarianism? Foreign policy?
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2010, 09:19:04 AM »
I don't get the point of equating homosexuality to drug addiction or disease.  What are the "inevitable results" of homosexuality that you're expected to pay for?  It's just SEX and LOVE.  It has nothing to do with anyone other than the two consenting adults involved. 

And as for homosexuality leading to the end of the species?  I don't buy that either.  I'm hetero, married, and have no plans of reproducing. I'M the one leading to the end of the species.  But as long as I don't munch carpet, I'm a-okay in your books? 
Our liberties we prize and our rights we will maintain.

Offline DarkSide

  • FSW Member, In Wyoming
  • ****
  • Posts: 161
Re: Social liberty/libertarianism? Foreign policy?
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2010, 10:58:43 AM »
I don't get the point of equating homosexuality to drug addiction or disease.  What are the "inevitable results" of homosexuality that you're expected to pay for?  It's just SEX and LOVE.  It has nothing to do with anyone other than the two consenting adults involved. 

And as for homosexuality leading to the end of the species?  I don't buy that either.  I'm hetero, married, and have no plans of reproducing. I'M the one leading to the end of the species.  But as long as I don't munch carpet, I'm a-okay in your books? 

AIDS comes to mind.  Many other diseases and conditions are possible as well.  That's not to single out homosexuals either, it was merely by way of example.  The same results can be achieved by careless heterosexual promiscuity, drug abuse, purposely inhaling industrial chemical fumes, riding motorcycles without helmets or any number of self destructive behaviors.  I understand that there are homosexuals out there who are in careful, monogamous relationships and who accept personal responsibility for their choices.  I still think it's disgusting, but I don't have any real problem with those folks and I'm not talking about them.  They aren't the ones being represented by most of the "loud and proud," "celebrate our lifestyle" organizations out there, however.  In my opinion, of course.  And, as I said - we ALL pay for their follies through the extortion of taxes, increased medical premiums and myriad other ways.  So in that respect you're quite wrong - in our current entitlement society it DOES have something to do with someone other than the two consenting adults involved.  If I (along with everyone else) am to be forced to accept any amount of responsibility (financially, in this case) for someone else's  behavior and lifestyle choices, then I should get to set conditions on those choices.  Don't like conditions?  Fine, take responsibility.

As for your second statement, I'm not sure it was directed at me.  Oh well:  Plans don't mean much, as my wife and I learned.  Glad we have our daughter, though, and wouldn't change it for the world.  I consider it a blessing that certain folks don't reproduce and I doubt the species is in any danger.  Furthermore, I don't care if you munch carpet or not as long as you take personal and financial responsibility for any repercussions that crop up from said activity.   :D

DS