Free State Wyoming Forum
Prospective Free State Wyoming (FSW) Members and Interested Parties => Prospective Free State Wyoming (FSW) Members and Interested Parties => Topic started by: Crispin on September 12, 2006, 11:44:35 AM
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Good Afternoon,
It is Primary Day in Maryland. My wife and I voted this morning to avoid the after work crowds.
One of the things that I am not sure that I understand concerns the future of the FSW movement.
In The "Official" FSW Frequently Asked Questions section, the goal of Free State Wyoming is?
To encourage, assist, and reward the migration of liberty-minded Americans to Wyoming in order to maintain and further its relative laissez-faire Western culture; to eventually create a haven for those Americans who desire not to live as, or under, government supremacists.
I have no problem understanding this.? What throws me is how this is to be accomplished, because it is clearly pointed out that?
The FSW is not a political organization, and we have no formal agenda.? Our members stand for free trade, political liberty, and voluntary cooperation--that's all.
Without organization?political or otherwise, is the goal to ?eventually create a haven for those Americans who desire not to live as, or under, government supremacists? possible?? I am having trouble connecting the dots.
Thanks,
Crispin
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Hey Crispin,
I thought I would give a quick response since I think I have teh answer. The FSW is only about getting people to wyoming, networking, etc as mentioned in the FAQ. It us up to individual members to start political organizations, hold events, fight for liberty within the state of Wyoming. Thats as basic as I can describe it right now.
Hope this helps. Have a good day!
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Richard,
Thanks for your prompt response!
I very much appreciate your putting things in perspective. My biggest problem was trying to marry up "Molon Labe" and contemporary politics.
I am a 51 year old military retiree (98Z50/00R50/11B50) that is ready to actively support a James Wayne Preston.
Regards,
Crispin
"Soli deo honeur et gloria"
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... My biggest problem was trying to marry up "Molon Labe" and contemporary politics.
Here are my observations with regard to your questions/concerns -
(caution - Mol?n Lab? spoiler is contained herein)
1.? From meeting many at this year's Jam, and from the postings here, I've come
to the conclusion that FSW folks seem to be particularly disenfranchised from
the existing political system.? There is almost universal disdain for the Republicans,
the Democrats and the Libertarian Party.? FSWers are not the kind of people who will
be patient enough or capable of playing politics while surreptitiously planning and
pulling off the 'infiltrate and take over the dominant party' scheme, let alone
seceding from the US.? Mol?n Lab? is fiction and will stay fiction.
2.? FSW folks are really big fans of guns.? Don't get me wrong - I think guns are
great tools, just like cars and big bank accounts.? But the truth is that we're not
going to effect political change in Wyoming at the shooting range.
3.? There is no political action taking place that is in any way related to FSW.
I don't know of any Wyoming-resident FSWers who are involved in politics
at all.? I would be very interested in helping with such an effort - I have
some time and money to put into trying to change our political system,
and the desire to make a difference.? However, I don't think a great
mass of support (either time or money) is going to come from FSW folks.
4.? I personally believe the problem with politics today is at the federal
level.? The Constitution has been kicked around for 150 years or so and
is hardly recognizable.? Electing a more liberty-oriented sheriff in Crook
County isn't going to make a hill of beans difference.
Readers - please note that I've made some generalizations that might upset
you.? I don't mean to be disrepectful or personally insulting - my posting
is not meant to offend you or start a flame war.? I'm just making some
observations that might help Crispin understand us.
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Well, I'm not starting a war here either... but if all that stuff is true Chill, what then is the point of all this?
If we're not planning on going somewhere in the general direction of Molon Labe, why are we here? To incessantly complain about things and talk about guns? How do others see this, as a movement, a revolution, a gripe session or what? I'm really interested to know like Crispin where we're going with FSW, if anywhere at all.
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Chill is, as I see it more right, than wrong for now.
I actively campaigned for our new Republican Sheriffs Candidate, a 20 year veteran state trooper,an honest guy, a shooter, outdoorsman & staunch 2nd amendment proponent and he was blasted here as a "statest".
One of the FSW'rs is on the Crook County school board. So while yer not 100% right, yer mostly right on with the rest of yer comments. :'(
Hunter
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Hunter,
If you're referring to this thread: http://www.fundamentalsoffreedom.com/fswforum//index.php?topic=2892.0 then I vehemently disagree that your sheriff was "blasted as a statist." Paul was questioning the man's honesty as a politician, in a question directed at Sgt.Slappy, not as your friend. Is it so out of line for him to think someone who is running for public office might lie to get there? I could come up with a pretty long list of people who have done just that... Anyway, he wrapped that thought up by saying "Perhaps you know the answer for a fact, which would put you in a far better position than about 98% of most voters." If you know the man yourself, then obviously you know the answer for a fact. A question and answer is not the same as a "blast."
I'm commenting because I took your post as more of a gripe than a constructive criticism/explanation of FSW. So, you feel your man was blasted. So what? Are you saying FSW people are too liberal? Conservative? Libertarian? Scatterbrained? Does this mean you don't have a lot of hope in FSW, or you think it's bound to fail? What would you do, or have the rest of us do, to try to turn this problem around?
Regarding Chill's post, I too think he's right on the money with a lot of it. However, I'm optimistic. I, for one, am more than willing to get involved in politics. I am here and I will be whenever I find myself in Wyoming. How many FSW members are IN Wyoming right now? Not many, right? So ONE person on the schoolboard is a pretty good start! I mean heck - that's more than the Libertarian Party can say in some states, and we're a whole lot smaller.
I believe in what the FSW can accomplish, but it has to start HERE with good ideas and discourse. Not bickering. Not insulting one another. Not picking fights. This isn't directed at one person, but ALL of us. Crispin is new here. Do you honestly think some of the threads that have been going on are a good example of what - or who - we are? Is that "point scored" against someone you're arguing with really worth the one or two or three people who might read it, think we're all a bunch of jerks and never give FSW another thought?
Now, Crispin - my answer to your question is essentially the same as RichardF's. I think that some wrinkles need to be ironed out, some people need to find their place within FSW, and things will kind of sort themselves out. We're going to find out who is willing to get out there and campaign, or run for office. We're going to find out who is going to vote. We're going to find out who is content having a piece of land and showing up to shoot once in a while, but otherwise just wants to be in Wyoming to be left alone. A combination of the first two groups is going to evolve into a political force, where the first group is running for office/campaigning and the second group is supporting them with their money and votes. Yeah, we'll have to start small. A school board. County commission. City council. Can we take over the federal government? I doubt it - not peacefully anyway, and not in my lifetime. And yeah, the feds sure can make things miserable. But a determined community can deter them, too. A whole bunch of (armed) people saying "You'd be better off leaving us in peace" isn't likely to be the place they want to tangle. A sheriff who refuses to assist federal officers - that's going to make things pretty tough. And on a day-to-day basis, who are the folks that affect you the most? Who pulls you over for going five miles over the speed limit? Who levies a new school board tax? Who zones your property so you can't build a granny flat for your elderly mother?
Start there, and the rest will follow. Maybe it's youthful idealism, but oh well. I prefer it to cynicism, it gives me less ulcers. The fact is, living free is likely to inspire others to follow suit. I believe Molon Labe is possible. Not as quickly as it moves in the book, mind you, but I believe it is possible. I believe that FSWers can inspire people around the country, not to mention the next generation, to keep the ball rolling. That is changing the world, in my book. That's why I'm here, and that's why I've got my eye on Wyoming. Freedom in my lifetime - yes... and for all those who follow, too.
Laurel
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Heck, I'd LOVE to get into politics.
I'd love to become James Wayne Preston......but, I doubt that would happen.
I think what the freedom movement desperately needs, is more leaders IN GOVERNMENT to rally behind...
Alot of you might be flabergasted, and ask "WHY!?!"
Simple....having a person IN GOVERNMENT, who has the same views and principles and concerns...and given the fact that he has a voice...(Hence we have one through him), gives us someone to rally behind....
I Know this sounds wierd...but recall Molon Labe...
BEGIN SPOILER WARNING-
When James Wayne Preston called on the people of his state to rally to the defense of Wyoming, people rallied behind him.
End Spoiler...
So many libertarians, paleolibertarians, paleocons, ultracons, whatever your label, are willing to fight, but need someone to rally behind..to boost their morale.
If the govorners of Wyoming, Idaho and Montana called for secession and called upon the citizenry to take up arms to defend the new Free West Republic, I KNOW that it would be enough of a morale booster, that you would see people who would normally otherwise "Sit it out", actually instead come out into the field with appropriate gear, and ready to ROCK.
Look at Ron Paul and how much NATIONAL attention he gets from libertarians, Paleo-Conservatives, and PaleoLibertarians. The majority of his campaign donations come from OUT OF STATE!
Imagine if we got a govorner...or even just a sheriff! That sheriff could EASILY call upon patriots, and Patriots WILL COME.
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Just my take on the FSW.
The month or so I was up in Wyoming, I met Hunter, Mama Liberty, Jared, Paul, Tom & Martha and I talked to Razor City Rifle Man on the phone about job leads in Gillette. My best friend Michael moved up there and is still there loving his new job! I brought Mama Liberty some fresh Oklahoma Tomatoes, She later gave us some homemade bread, Jared helped both Michael and I with lodging, job hunting, internet access, fun and beer! Later Jared and I helped Tom & Martha move their stuff out of storage to their new house, Martha fixed us all a real good dinner that night, I helped Jared move a few things out of storage. Since I have been gone I've gotten word that Paul & Michael helped Jared shingle the roof of his new house, and many of the folks up there have been helping PatriotAR15 with his move from NJ.
I feel good about the FSW! This is the beginning and it's bound to be the toughest....but you know what it's kind of fun too! I only wish my new job was closer than 3-4 hours away:(
I truly believe the rest will come once the trail blazers have laid the foundation!
Let's hear two cheers for the FSW!!!!!!!!!
Jed Bodacious
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If you're referring to this thread: http://www.fundamentalsoffreedom.com/fswforum//index.php?topic=2892.0 then I vehemently disagree that your sheriff was "blasted as a statist." Paul was questioning the man's honesty as a politician, in a question directed at Sgt.Slappy, not as your friend. Is it so out of line for him to think someone who is running for public office might lie to get there? I could come up with a pretty long list of people who have done just that... Anyway, he wrapped that thought up by saying "Perhaps you know the answer for a fact, which would put you in a far better position than about 98% of most voters." If you know the man yourself, then obviously you know the answer for a fact. A question and answer is not the same as a "blast."
Laurel,
It's possible I was mistaken, I don't think so, but I am, at least, willing to admit, it is possible.
FSW is made up of many different people, of different ages, from many different backgrounds, degrees of knowledge, and having similar but different political/personal views.
One thing for sure is most of us have STRONG OPINIONS on differing subjects.
Those combine to make for Rousing? and even heated (gross understatement? :o) discussion/conversation.
I myself am a realist. I see things as they are, not as I'd like them to be. I observe and ask people of their opinions and I listen to them. I know how most here in Wyoming thinks. Most here in Wyoming are conservative liberals, even the few democrats are more conservative than demos in most other states.
Radical right or left wing thoughts are resisted by both groups.? Point examples being were statements made on the old FSW Yahoo site about "taking over" a while back,? or on this new site by Johnm about firing ("fire them all") state, city & county workers some time back, even the stuff about getting rid of the public (or "Guvment" as Paulb says) lands (I'm not sure Kreswindhunter or clemac (both being ranchers) would agree with that). Stuff like that will get ya nailed to the floor in a conversation with 99.44/100%+ of Wyomingites.
Actual life is a he11 of a lot different than the visions espoused here. And will continue to be that way for YEARS to come, that gal is the reality of things. Now dear, if that makes me a "statest" so be it!
As far as the sniping and nitpicking here is concerned, live with it, they're growing pains.
My bitches are voicing the concerns of a great many of Wyoming's people AS I SEE THEM Molon Labe was a great read, even a vision, but......... the Wyoming change won't happen anywhere near as fast as the books did.
He11, It may never happen! And ........ I'll betcha if it happens, it won't be as the book discribed it! I'll further betcha it won't happen in my life time.
Like minded people still have independent thought and THEY aren't always "like minded"!
That's just the way it is! That's life, that's reality!
The far right drives me just as nutz as the far left does and ....... they both use the same rhetoric & tactics to support their positions.
That's my story and I'm a stickin to it? ;)
Hunter
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Good Morning, All?
Chill?thank you for your response and perspective on things.
I am very much the ?new kid? on the block and certainly have very little direct knowledge about Wyoming and the Free State Wyoming movement. Having said that?the Free State concept does seem to have potential, else why would we be here? Likewise, Wyoming seems to be a suitable environment to test the feasibility of the Free State concept based on the arguments put forth by Boston and others.
My thoughts on some of the points that Chill made (please let me know if I have taken anything out of context)?
?FSW folks seem to be particularly disenfranchised from the existing political system.? FSWers are not the kind of people who will be patient enough or capable of playing politics??
This is probably the scariest point you make, in that I see the Free State concept as being all about politics and the effective use of political tactics and strategy within the existing political system. A game can?t be won that isn?t played.
?But the truth is that we're not going to effect political change in Wyoming at the shooting range.?
No argument with this point.? My only observation would be that arms/shooting, etc. are a common interest, which is important in overall group dynamics.
?There is no political action taking place that is in any way related to FSW. I don't know of any Wyoming-resident FSWers who are involved in politics at all.? I would be very interested in helping with such an effort - I have some time and money to put into trying to change our political system, and the desire to make a difference.? However, I don't think a great mass of support (either time or money) is going to come from FSW folks.?
Talk about a potentially ?no-win? situation! It was my understanding that Wyoming was/is a suitable locale for a Free State effort based on the ability for a limited number of like-minded individuals to have an impact. Also, that in the current population of Wyoming there was a chance of local support for Free State ideals.
?I personally believe the problem with politics today is at the federal level.? The Constitution has been kicked around for 150 years or so and is hardly recognizable.? Electing a more liberty-oriented sheriff in Crook County isn't going to make a hill of beans difference.?
I very much agree that the biggest problem is at the federal level. My feeling on this, however, is that I, personally, have a better chance of contributing something of value (in terms of time and effort) at the local level.
More comment on other messages in a bit. First, tho', it is lunch time, here and my darlin' wife packed us great lunches today!
Regards,
Crispin
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4.? I personally believe the problem with politics today is at the federal
level.? The Constitution has been kicked around for 150 years or so and
is hardly recognizable.? Electing a more liberty-oriented sheriff in Crook
County isn't going to make a hill of beans difference.
Great thread, excellent thoughtful response. I agree with all of it except 4. above. Yes, the Constitution has been mis-interpreted to meaningless. If we took as one goal to help restore the Constitution I think the state level is a most appropriate level to make changes at.
That's kind of the central theme of Molon Labe, that the state organizes (under a charismatic leader) to push back against FedGov and start the process of returning the Constitution to pre-eminance.
Realistically the other way to fix it is to pack the Supreme Court with Constitutionalists. I like Bush's two judges, but we need to get rid of about three more and keep putting hard core Constitutionalists to really accomplish that. Obviously people like Ruth Ginsberg and Souter are the main instrument of defanging the Constitution, destroying the bill of rights, and enabling the ever growing FedGov BLOB that threatens to eat the neighborhood.
So, yeah, electing a sheriff is good. The basic ML idea is sound - take over a county and push back at the state. That becomes a bully pulpit for forcing discussion at the state level about fundamentals that are never discussed: Why do we have welfare? Why do some people get free stuff and other people get taxed to provide it? If you can cause that discussion to happen you *may* end up growing enough awareness to get part 2 "Freedom lovers control the State" to happen.
Sure, it's a long shot. But what's the alternative?
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Sure, it's a long shot. But what's the alternative?
I guess that was my thoughts. I mean, what are we waiting for? I know it's not going to go just like Molon Labe, but are we going to wait for the next terrorist attack, or the immigration issue to get completely out of hand, or the Patriot Act III and new gun laws, before we do something?
Maybe reading Enemies Foreign and Domestic and Domestic Enemies was a bad idea. Throw in watching V for Vendetta. I don't want to live in those worlds. And I think there needs to be a backstop to run to when the stuff hits the fan. I just thought people here would be all working on that more actively. :-\ I'm not blaming anyone, except me, for getting my hopes up again.
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Good Evening,
There has been much discussion on this thread, which I found very educational concerning the state of the FSW movement. While there were considerable pessimisms expressed, there also seems to be an underlying belief that possibly, just possibly, there might be something to this Free State concept. The big question seemed to be how to proceed.
While there are pitfalls, the internet and sites such as this are wonderful tools for the organization of groups. For those interested in the Free State concept, the internet enables the following?
o For those actually on-site in Wyoming (does anyone have any idea as to how many there are), it makes for easy communication and coordination.
o For those planning to move to Wyoming at some point in the future, it offers a venue for making the transition as painless as possible, plus quick assimilation into the local Free State effort.
o For those who will never immigrate to Wyoming, but are sympathetic to the Free State movement, it offers a platform for offering support to the FSW movement and/or helping to create a Free State group in their local area.
Organizationally, the link that MamaLiberty posted concerning the ?Liberty Incident Command System? is a wonderful basis for discussion as to what the FSW organization should actually consist of in Wyoming (and beyond).
Regards,
Crispin
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Richard's post up there in the beginning had it right. FSW is not the Organization That Does Everything.
I am somewhat amused at the notion that nothing good can happen if we don't get "organized". Actually, much that has happened in moving toward freedom in the past was pretty spontaneous. Lots of people don't need leaders and organization; they just pick up and do what needs doing. Or when some organizing needs to be done, they do it for one specific project, starting small and building as needed. It's hoped we are attracting doers to this group, not just followers.
On Chill's response, I think he's just giving his own usual pessimistic take on things; almost all of it could be disputed. For example:
There is no political action taking place that is in any way related to FSW.
I don't know of any Wyoming-resident FSWers who are involved in politics
at all.
The Wyoming Liberty Index may be a somewhat modest thing, but it ain't nothing! Now that I'm a Wyoming resident, I'm going to publicize it a lot more than I have. (BTW I can always use more volunteers for WLI too.) And there has been some discussion of running for office; I've talked to many who are interested in it. Just because one recognizes there are limitations to what realistically can be done politically, that does not imply a complete rejection of the system.
Some folks here want nothing to do with the system; others still think some good can be done through it. There is no utility in the two sides of this issue fighting about it; we are not the enemy. Both viewpoints are welcome in FSW, because even those who aren't fond of "the system" still can be good neighbors, and often are the best kinds of neighbors. There is a world outside of the political world that still needs the attention of freedom-lovers.
I personally believe the problem with politics today is at the federal
level. The Constitution has been kicked around for 150 years or so and
is hardly recognizable. Electing a more liberty-oriented sheriff in Crook
County isn't going to make a hill of beans difference.
Sorry, I have to disagree. Most infringements on liberty are local ones, so local changes are going to make a big difference. Washington may be big, ugly and nasty, but they are also far away and not well liked around here. But Chill, if you don't think I'm right about this, that is OK. Let others worry about local elections, and ignore them yourself.
As to Pete, he's made a career of misinterpreting what I write around here. ;) And realism is in the eye of the beholder.
Bottom line, FSW is going to remain limited in its aims: attracting freedom-lovers to Wyoming. Anything else is up to individuals and the organizations they put together.
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Bottom line, FSW is going to remain limited in its aims: attracting freedom-lovers to Wyoming. Anything else is up to individuals and the organizations they put together.
Precisely, Paul, thanks.
And that will be the secret of the FSW's success: that we didn't
try to make the FSW into some kind of political organization.
The FSW is merely a broad Wyoming umbrella for moderately kindred spirits.
That's it.
If/when the FSW has attracted thousands of actual relocators, then they will
have enough potential clout to contemplate political goals. But meanwhile,
it's naming the grandchild of an embryo...
Boston
[/color]
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Bottom line, FSW is going to remain limited in its aims: attracting freedom-lovers to Wyoming. Anything else is up to individuals and the organizations they put together.
Precisely, Paul, thanks.
And that will be the secret of the FSW's success:? that we didn't
try to make the FSW into some kind of political organization.
The FSW is merely a broad Wyoming umbrella for moderately kindred spirits.
That's it.
If/when the FSW has attracted thousands of actual relocators, then they will
have enough potential clout to contemplate political goals.? But meanwhile,
it's naming the grandchild of an embryo...
Boston
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Good Evening,
Yikes...it seems that I misinterpreted the FSW site. My apologies and thanks to Richard, Paul and Boston for clarifying things for me.
Having said that, when Free State Wyoming does start to organize, I would be very willing to work on such...20 years in Uncle Sam's Army, plus a great deal of experience in Volunteer organizations have given me an appreciation of how powerful organized action can be. With that, an absolute hate of egos, which are, in my opinion, the biggest threat to any organization.
Regards,
Crispin
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On Chill's response, I think he's just giving his own usual pessimistic take on things; almost all of it could be disputed. For example...
Paul,
With regard to my "usual pessimistic take on things" - I call them as I see them,
and not through rose colored glasses.
Do you have a rebuttal to these key points that I made?
1.? ?From meeting many at this year's Jam, and from the postings here, I've come
to the conclusion that FSW folks seem to be particularly disenfranchised from
the existing political system.? There is almost universal disdain for the Republicans,
the Democrats and the Libertarian Party.
2.? FSW folks are really big fans of guns. ... the truth is that we're not
going to effect political change in Wyoming at the shooting range.
3.? Mol?n Lab? is fiction and will stay fiction.
Many participants in the FSP (New Hampshire) are involved with politics *today*.
That's just not the case with FSW folks, notwithstanding your important contribution
to transparency in the Wyoming legislative process.
And welcome to Wyoming - what county do you live in?
Don "Chill" Wills
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One thing this interested newcomer would like to add to the discussion is that saying that the FSW group has particular disdain for any specific political party might be a turn off for folks who might be on the fence.
There are many folks with Libertarian leanings who have, for lack of better words what some would call leftist tendencies. Now, it would seem in my short time on this board that many folks here consider themselves Libertarians, but there are many who do not.
I think it's safe to say ALL OF US hold the Constitution and the Bill of Rights as the documents of the highest order, alongside or somewhere near their holy texts (if they subscribe to holy things). I know I do. I don't always agree with some things said in threads and I bite my tongue most times because frankly I don't have the time to hand out tongue lashings or get into huge philosophical debates right now, I'm too busy doing preps for my family at the moment.
In any case, for any political movement (is this a political movement?) >:D needs to have a capacious tent that can acommodate wide philosophical views. There should, certainly, be a few tenets that the "movement" agrees on - but anyway my 9 week old is screaming, my 3 year old is mauling my bulldog and I'll sign off fer now...
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It makes sense to say that Free State Wyoming's sole purpose is to get people to move to Wyoming. BUT if the people of Free State Wyoming don't have the political goal of moving the state of Wyoming toward greater liberty then most of what we are doing here is simply hot air (or whatever the electronic equivalent is.
On a related note, I don't buy the idea that 'this is just the way things are and you can't change them'. If that were the case we'd all be Tory citizens of Canada. Moreover, if anyone is a Christian, as I am, then you have to acknowledge the idea that we have a responsibility to do the right thing and work for positive transformation, even when it is a lost cause. (Though I'm not saying it is, just stating a principle).
Strider
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Chill, I already supplied a rebuttal of points 3 and 4 of your original post. As to the other two:
1. From meeting many at this year's Jam, and from the postings here, I've come
to the conclusion that FSW folks seem to be particularly disenfranchised from
the existing political system. There is almost universal disdain for the Republicans,
the Democrats and the Libertarian Party. FSWers are not the kind of people who will
be patient enough or capable of playing politics while surreptitiously planning and
pulling off the 'infiltrate and take over the dominant party' scheme, let alone
seceding from the US. Mol?n Lab? is fiction and will stay fiction.
Yes, there is disdain. That is only normal for anyone who has even modest powers of observation. Again that does not imply all of us are simply going to ignore the system (although some are). I disdain careless drivers, but I still take them into account when I drive. In my view, the system impinges on us so we have to deal with it somehow. As to the rest of your point, we specifically reject the idea of doing anything "sneaky" or "infiltrating", etc. We are just individuals, moving to a state that we believe will be most in line with our views, just like the way other people often move to other states. Naturally, being here, we will act individually or in groups (but not via FSW) to keep or even improve its friendliness to our views (which for us can be boiled down to the word "freedom") - again, just like anyone else who moves to any other state, and anyone who has previously moved to Wyoming. Molon Labe! is indeed fiction, but it is also something to inspire that movement of people, and an excellent novel besides.
I don't disagree with all of this point you made, but with some of it.
2. FSW folks are really big fans of guns. Don't get me wrong - I think guns are
great tools, just like cars and big bank accounts. But the truth is that we're not
going to effect political change in Wyoming at the shooting range.
Mao said, "Political power flows from the barrel of a gun" (no commie ever spoke more truly). Or as Boston put it in Boston's Gun Bible, "I'd like to see your backup plan!" (my recollection of the quote) The emphasis on guns is just our attending to our backup plan - although it is also fun!
What's more, it's not just a mere tool like a bank account. Historically, advances in personal freedom were directly connected to advances in personal weaponry that is usable with a modicum of training, a description that fits firearms. Without firearms, freedom is impossible. No other factor is so important for freedom, except perhaps the right to free speech (which itself depends on RKBA).
What I find astounding is that there are freedom-lovers who have not understood this connection and made it a part of their persona. FSW is clearly for those who have, or at the very least for those who are willing to take the time and effort to make it so.
As to political involvement, you simply have no basis for judging what FSW people in Wyoming are up to, unless you claim perfect knowledge. Just because FSW has not centralized political activity in the way FSP has, does not mean political activity is not happening. Centralized political activity does not fit a state like Wyoming very well anyway, in my opinion; local efforts are much more important here, and tend to be somewhat invisible to observers. Also, remember in any comparisons with FSP, we have started later than they did.
Bottom line: folks, if you see a political need, then get working to fill it, yourself and with your friends and associates. Don't wait for FSW to lead you, as it ain't gonna happen. Do use this forum as a resource though - I certainly do!
Chill, I apologize for characterizing what you said as a "usual pessimistic take".
I think it's safe to say ALL OF US hold the Constitution and the Bill of Rights as the documents of the highest order, alongside or somewhere near their holy texts (if they subscribe to holy things).
Teotwawki, I urge you to read Boston's Hologram of Liberty for a more nuanced understanding, which will give you a better view of some of the comments you may have read here about the Constitution, that have irritated you up to now. I happen to hold the same view as Cathy Henderson, who said, "The Constitution may not be a perfect document, but it beats the hell out of what we're using now." Any reasonable interpretation of the Constitution would leave us far more free than currently, even if it was designed by those who wished to centralize power in federal hands.
Paul (Park County)
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Interesting. I wasn't aware that I had any issues with any commentary here regrading the Constitution. ???
Teotwawki, I urge you to read Boston's Hologram of Liberty for a more nuanced understanding, which will give you a better view of some of the comments you may have read here about the Constitution, that have irritated you up to now. I happen to hold the same view as Cathy Henderson, who said, "The Constitution may not be a perfect document, but it beats the hell out of what we're using now." Any reasonable interpretation of the Constitution would leave us far more free than currently, even if it was designed by those who wished to centralize power in federal hands.
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I think it's safe to say ALL OF US hold the Constitution and the Bill of Rights as the documents of the highest order...
It's not safe to say the foregoing... ;)? There are some that feel the Constitution was written with ulterior motives.? Maybe.? I haven't studied the issue/theory.? But like Paul said, and I would say, any reasonable interpretation of the Constitution would leave us far more free than currently.
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Wow, sometimes I feel like I'm herding cats... >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
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*meow*
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Can we agree that breathing is a good thing? ;D
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As to political involvement, you simply have no basis for judging what FSW people in Wyoming are up to, unless you claim perfect knowledge. Just because FSW has not centralized political activity in the way FSP has, does not mean political activity is not happening. Centralized political activity does not fit a state like Wyoming very well anyway, in my opinion; local efforts are much more important here, and tend to be somewhat invisible to observers. Also, remember in any comparisons with FSP, we have started later than they did.
Bottom line: folks, if you see a political need, then get working to fill it, yourself and with your friends and associates. Don't wait for FSW to lead you, as it ain't gonna happen. Do use this forum as a resource though - I certainly do!
I'm not judging people and I don't claim perfect knowledge - I'm just reporting my
own, admittedly limited, observations.
Many FSP (NH) members have joined the political process by running for office as
Democrats, Republicans and Libertarians, and by getting involved with and working
on various political projects.? They use the FSP online forums for communication and
organizing, but I wouldn't use the term "centralized" to describe FSP political activity.
And I disagree with your implication that New Hampshire is more conducive to "centralized"
political activity than Wyoming.? On the contrary, New Hampshire has the smallest
legislative districts for state house representatives of all states, and has a long history
of grass roots activism.? Wyoming has the Republican Party - end of story.
The bottom line is that, for whatever reason, it appears to me that FSP folks are much
more "into" politics than FSW folks.
With regard to whether local government or the federal government is more detrimental
to liberty - each has his own opinion and we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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If you are interested in action, not a part of or sanctioned by FSW, take a look at this thread. http://www.fundamentalsoffreedom.com/fswforum//index.php?topic=2909.new#new
It will only take a few of us to make good use of this system and begin to prepare ourselves for potential emergencies.
No, it has nothing to do with political activity, as such. I happen to think it will be a lot more useful in the long run. Make up your own mind.
MamaLiberty
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from Chill:
...On the contrary, New Hampshire has the smallest
legislative districts for state house representatives of all states...
Yes, but that consequently means the weakest reps in the nation.
TANSTAAFL...
What will 1 rep of 400 accomplish?
They'd need 20 reps for even 5% of the house to be the swing votes.
Going after the house without first having local political influence is a very flawed
policy in my view. And, NH counties are not the local linchpins; the townships are. (Good luck!)
On a related note, I think that FSPers running for office under FSP auspices or support
(however vague) is a political mistake given the significant local resistance to the FSP.
There are NH bumper stickers appearing: Free Staters Go Home!
The main reason for that, IMO, is the FSP is overtly active in the political sphere.
My impression is that FSPers are trying to sell their politics before they've even
first sold themselves as good/reasonable neighbors. The FSW gemeinshaft is the opposite.
This is why I've kept the FSW much more bland about political offices.
A free state org's raison d'etre is simply to attract freedom-minded relocators
and help them network--not engage in local/state politics, or even endorse
those who do.
Many FSP (NH) members have joined the political process by running for office as
Democrats, Republicans and Libertarians, and by getting involved with and working
on various political projects.
Many? Hmmm. I'd be surprised if more than a half-dozen of their 426 in NH have
actually run for office there. Whatever the #, how many have won? Hence, I'm not
yet seeing as much political activism there as you do. It's no doubt more than the FSWers,
but hardly any large wave.
The bottom line is that, for whatever reason, it appears to me that FSP folks are much
more "into" politics than FSW folks.
Perhaps, for now.
The FSP has had a time lead over the FSW, and that has much to do with it, too.
Any FSWer is welcome to run for office and even champion themselves on this forum.
However, the FSW itself will never offer any particular endorsements.
We're not a political organization, and we won't blur that line, as has the FSP.
Boston
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On a related note, I think that FSPers running for office under FSP auspices or support
(however vague) is a political mistake given the significant local resistance to the FSP.
That's what I was talking about, when I mentioned "centralized" efforts in New Hampshire.
As to the Republican party being dominant in Wyoming, that is so, but it is also pretty irrelevant. For one thing, it just means the important election is the primary, not the general election. Competition between Demopublicans and Republicrats is one thing that can have an effect on freedom, but it is hardly the only thing. Anyway, D's do pretty well in some parts of the Wyoming.
Wyoming appears to be less political than NH. That is because personal connections more often substitute for politics, which is natural in a small-town/rural state. I think things are developing here as they should; it may also be the case that things in NH are developing as they should. What's clear is that big city-style politicking would be pretty out of place here.
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Chill, it just dawned on me:
You're politically minded, intelligent, articulate,
and already in Wyoming. If there isn't enough
political activism going on here, why not run
for office yourself?
Boston
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Thanks for the compliments, Boston.? I've always
considered myself more of a producer rather than
the talent, but one never knows.? Suffice it to say,
I will be involved in Wyoming politics in one way
or another.
Don "Chill" Wills