Author Topic: The Future of Free State Wyoming?  (Read 11642 times)

Offline Boston

  • FSW Founder
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,212
  • FSW Rifleman
    • Javelin Press
Re: The Future of Free State Wyoming?
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2006, 05:46:13 PM »
Quote
Bottom line, FSW is going to remain limited in its aims: attracting freedom-lovers to Wyoming. Anything else is up to individuals and the organizations they put together.

Precisely, Paul, thanks.

And that will be the secret of the FSW's success:  that we didn't
try to make the FSW into some kind of political organization.

The FSW is merely a broad Wyoming umbrella for moderately kindred spirits.
That's it.

If/when the FSW has attracted thousands of actual relocators, then they will
have enough potential clout to contemplate political goals.  But meanwhile,
it's naming the grandchild of an embryo...

Boston
[/color]

Offline Crispin

  • Rather Interested
  • ***
  • Posts: 55
Re: The Future of Free State Wyoming?
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2006, 06:02:45 PM »
Quote
Bottom line, FSW is going to remain limited in its aims: attracting freedom-lovers to Wyoming. Anything else is up to individuals and the organizations they put together.

Precisely, Paul, thanks.

And that will be the secret of the FSW's success:? that we didn't
try to make the FSW into some kind of political organization.

The FSW is merely a broad Wyoming umbrella for moderately kindred spirits.
That's it.

If/when the FSW has attracted thousands of actual relocators, then they will
have enough potential clout to contemplate political goals.? But meanwhile,
it's naming the grandchild of an embryo...

Boston
[/color]

Good Evening,

Yikes...it seems that I misinterpreted the FSW site. My apologies and thanks to Richard, Paul and Boston for clarifying things for me.

Having said that, when Free State Wyoming does start to organize, I would be very willing to work on such...20 years in Uncle Sam's Army, plus a great deal of experience in Volunteer organizations have given me an appreciation of how powerful organized action can be. With that, an absolute hate of egos, which are, in my opinion, the biggest threat to any organization.

Regards,
Crispin






Offline Don Wills

  • FSW Founding Member, In Wyoming
  • ****
  • Posts: 847
Re: The Future of Free State Wyoming?
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2006, 08:59:32 PM »
On Chill's response, I think he's just giving his own usual pessimistic take on things; almost all of it could be disputed. For example...

Paul,

With regard to my "usual pessimistic take on things" - I call them as I see them,
and not through rose colored glasses.

Do you have a rebuttal to these key points that I made?

1.? ?From meeting many at this year's Jam, and from the postings here, I've come
to the conclusion that FSW folks seem to be particularly disenfranchised from
the existing political system.? There is almost universal disdain for the Republicans,
the Democrats and the Libertarian Party.

2.? FSW folks are really big fans of guns. ... the truth is that we're not
going to effect political change in Wyoming at the shooting range.

3.? Mol?n Lab? is fiction and will stay fiction.

Many participants in the FSP (New Hampshire) are involved with politics *today*.
That's just not the case with FSW folks, notwithstanding your important contribution
to transparency in the Wyoming legislative process.

And welcome to Wyoming - what county do you live in?

Don "Chill" Wills

Offline teotwawki

  • Casual Observer
  • **
  • Posts: 44
  • Brother E of the Church of the Immaculate M1a
Re: The Future of Free State Wyoming?
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2006, 05:07:17 PM »
One thing this interested newcomer would like to add to the discussion is that saying that the FSW group has particular disdain for any specific political party might be a turn off for folks who might be on the fence.

There are many folks with Libertarian leanings who have, for lack of better words what some would call leftist tendencies.  Now, it would seem in my short time on this board that many folks here consider themselves Libertarians, but there are many who do not. 

I think it's safe to say ALL OF US hold the Constitution and the Bill of Rights as the documents of the highest order, alongside or somewhere near their holy texts (if they subscribe to holy things).  I know I do.  I don't always agree with some things said in threads and I bite my tongue most times because frankly I don't have the time to hand out tongue lashings or get into huge philosophical debates right now, I'm too busy doing preps for my family at the moment. 

In any case, for any political movement (is this a political movement?)  >:D needs to have a capacious tent that can acommodate wide philosophical views.  There should, certainly, be a few tenets that the "movement" agrees on - but anyway my 9 week old is screaming, my 3 year old is mauling my bulldog and I'll sign off fer now...
Critical Thoughts & Radical Dissent Against Authority Created This Nation.  Conformity Did Not.

Offline Strider

  • FSW Associate
  • **
  • Posts: 149
Re: The Future of Free State Wyoming?
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2006, 08:53:43 PM »
It makes sense to say that Free State Wyoming's sole purpose is to get people to move to Wyoming. BUT if the people of Free State Wyoming don't have the political goal of moving the state of Wyoming toward greater liberty then most of what we are doing here is simply hot air (or whatever the electronic equivalent is.

On a related note, I don't buy the idea that 'this is just the way things are and you can't change them'. If that were the case we'd all be Tory citizens of Canada. Moreover, if anyone is a Christian, as I am, then you have to acknowledge the idea that we have a responsibility to do the right thing and work for positive transformation, even when it is a lost cause. (Though I'm not saying it is, just stating a principle).

Strider
Strider
III

Offline Paul Bonneau

  • Member, In Wyoming
  • Administrative Staff
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,480
    • Wyoming Liberty Index
Re: The Future of Free State Wyoming?
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2006, 11:24:29 AM »
Chill, I already supplied a rebuttal of points 3 and 4 of your original post. As to the other two:

Quote
1.  From meeting many at this year's Jam, and from the postings here, I've come
to the conclusion that FSW folks seem to be particularly disenfranchised from
the existing political system.  There is almost universal disdain for the Republicans,
the Democrats and the Libertarian Party.  FSWers are not the kind of people who will
be patient enough or capable of playing politics while surreptitiously planning and
pulling off the 'infiltrate and take over the dominant party' scheme, let alone
seceding from the US.  Mol?n Lab? is fiction and will stay fiction.

Yes, there is disdain. That is only normal for anyone who has even modest powers of observation. Again that does not imply all of us are simply going to ignore the system (although some are). I disdain careless drivers, but I still take them into account when I drive. In my view, the system impinges on us so we have to deal with it somehow. As to the rest of your point, we specifically reject the idea of doing anything "sneaky" or "infiltrating", etc. We are just individuals, moving to a state that we believe will be most in line with our views, just like the way other people often move to other states. Naturally, being here, we will act individually or in groups (but not via FSW) to keep or even improve its friendliness to our views (which for us can be boiled down to the word "freedom") - again, just like anyone else who moves to any other state, and anyone who has previously moved to Wyoming. Molon Labe! is indeed fiction, but it is also something to inspire that movement of people, and an excellent novel besides.

I don't disagree with all of this point you made, but with some of it.

Quote
2.  FSW folks are really big fans of guns.  Don't get me wrong - I think guns are
great tools, just like cars and big bank accounts.  But the truth is that we're not
going to effect political change in Wyoming at the shooting range.

Mao said, "Political power flows from the barrel of a gun" (no commie ever spoke more truly). Or as Boston put it in Boston's Gun Bible, "I'd like to see your backup plan!" (my recollection of the quote) The emphasis on guns is just our attending to our backup plan - although it is also fun!

What's more, it's not just a mere tool like a bank account. Historically, advances in personal freedom were directly connected to advances in personal weaponry that is usable with a modicum of training, a description that fits firearms. Without firearms, freedom is impossible. No other factor is so important for freedom, except perhaps the right to free speech (which itself depends on RKBA).

What I find astounding is that there are freedom-lovers who have not understood this connection and made it a part of their persona. FSW is clearly for those who have, or at the very least for those who are willing to take the time and effort to make it so.

As to political involvement, you simply have no basis for judging what FSW people in Wyoming are up to, unless you claim perfect knowledge. Just because FSW has not centralized political activity in the way FSP has, does not mean political activity is not happening. Centralized political activity does not fit a state like Wyoming very well anyway, in my opinion; local efforts are much more important here, and tend to be somewhat invisible to observers. Also, remember in any comparisons with FSP, we have started later than they did.

Bottom line: folks, if you see a political need, then get working to fill it, yourself and with your friends and associates. Don't wait for FSW to lead you, as it ain't gonna happen. Do use this forum as a resource though - I certainly do!

Chill, I apologize for characterizing what you said as a "usual pessimistic take".

Quote
I think it's safe to say ALL OF US hold the Constitution and the Bill of Rights as the documents of the highest order, alongside or somewhere near their holy texts (if they subscribe to holy things).

Teotwawki, I urge you to read Boston's Hologram of Liberty for a more nuanced understanding, which will give you a better view of some of the comments you may have read here about the Constitution, that have irritated you up to now. I happen to hold the same view as Cathy Henderson, who said, "The Constitution may not be a perfect document, but it beats the hell out of what we're using now." Any reasonable interpretation of the Constitution would leave us far more free than currently, even if it was designed by those who wished to centralize power in federal hands.

Paul (Park County)

Laws turn men into slaves.

Offline teotwawki

  • Casual Observer
  • **
  • Posts: 44
  • Brother E of the Church of the Immaculate M1a
Re: The Future of Free State Wyoming?
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2006, 06:30:14 PM »
Interesting.  I wasn't aware that I had any issues with any commentary here regrading the Constitution. ???


Teotwawki, I urge you to read Boston's Hologram of Liberty for a more nuanced understanding, which will give you a better view of some of the comments you may have read here about the Constitution, that have irritated you up to now. I happen to hold the same view as Cathy Henderson, who said, "The Constitution may not be a perfect document, but it beats the hell out of what we're using now." Any reasonable interpretation of the Constitution would leave us far more free than currently, even if it was designed by those who wished to centralize power in federal hands.
Critical Thoughts & Radical Dissent Against Authority Created This Nation.  Conformity Did Not.

Offline Shawn

  • FSW Rifleman
  • FSW Founding Member, In Wyoming
  • ****
  • Posts: 374
  • Right and easy seldom meet.
Re: The Future of Free State Wyoming?
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2006, 09:10:09 PM »
I think it's safe to say ALL OF US hold the Constitution and the Bill of Rights as the documents of the highest order...

It's not safe to say the foregoing... ;)? There are some that feel the Constitution was written with ulterior motives.? Maybe.? I haven't studied the issue/theory.? But like Paul said, and I would say, any reasonable interpretation of the Constitution would leave us far more free than currently.
Our heritage in a nutshell: "This country was founded by religious nuts with guns"  P. J. O'Rourke...Isn't it time?

Offline teotwawki

  • Casual Observer
  • **
  • Posts: 44
  • Brother E of the Church of the Immaculate M1a
Re: The Future of Free State Wyoming?
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2006, 09:50:13 PM »
Wow, sometimes I feel like I'm herding cats... >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
Critical Thoughts & Radical Dissent Against Authority Created This Nation.  Conformity Did Not.

Offline Jared

  • Wolverine
  • FSW Founding Member, In Wyoming
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,518
  • FSW Rifleman
Re: The Future of Free State Wyoming?
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2006, 10:29:43 PM »
*meow*
"Nothing good in life comes but at a price. Sweetest of all is liberty. This we have chosen and this we pay for."

Offline teotwawki

  • Casual Observer
  • **
  • Posts: 44
  • Brother E of the Church of the Immaculate M1a
Re: The Future of Free State Wyoming?
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2006, 10:39:26 PM »
Can we agree that breathing is a good thing? ;D
Critical Thoughts & Radical Dissent Against Authority Created This Nation.  Conformity Did Not.

Offline Don Wills

  • FSW Founding Member, In Wyoming
  • ****
  • Posts: 847
Re: The Future of Free State Wyoming?
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2006, 08:09:06 AM »
As to political involvement, you simply have no basis for judging what FSW people in Wyoming are up to, unless you claim perfect knowledge. Just because FSW has not centralized political activity in the way FSP has, does not mean political activity is not happening. Centralized political activity does not fit a state like Wyoming very well anyway, in my opinion; local efforts are much more important here, and tend to be somewhat invisible to observers. Also, remember in any comparisons with FSP, we have started later than they did.

Bottom line: folks, if you see a political need, then get working to fill it, yourself and with your friends and associates. Don't wait for FSW to lead you, as it ain't gonna happen. Do use this forum as a resource though - I certainly do!

I'm not judging people and I don't claim perfect knowledge - I'm just reporting my
own, admittedly limited, observations.

Many FSP (NH) members have joined the political process by running for office as
Democrats, Republicans and Libertarians, and by getting involved with and working
on various political projects.? They use the FSP online forums for communication and
organizing, but I wouldn't use the term "centralized" to describe FSP political activity.
And I disagree with your implication that New Hampshire is more conducive to "centralized"
political activity than Wyoming.? On the contrary, New Hampshire has the smallest
legislative districts for state house representatives of all states, and has a long history
of grass roots activism.? Wyoming has the Republican Party - end of story.

The bottom line is that, for whatever reason, it appears to me that FSP folks are much
more "into" politics than FSW folks.

With regard to whether local government or the federal government is more detrimental
to liberty - each has his own opinion and we'll just have to agree to disagree.


Offline MamaLiberty

  • FSW Founding Member, In Wyoming
  • ****
  • Posts: 9,520
  • Self ownership/ personal responsibility
    • The Price of Liberty.org
Re: The Future of Free State Wyoming?
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2006, 08:59:56 AM »
If you are interested in action, not a part of or sanctioned by FSW, take a look at this thread. http://www.fundamentalsoffreedom.com/fswforum//index.php?topic=2909.new#new

It will only take a few of us to make good use of this system and begin to prepare ourselves for potential emergencies.

No, it has nothing to do with political activity, as such. I happen to think it will be a lot more useful in the long run. Make up your own mind.

MamaLiberty
It's not that people are dumber, it's that stupidity used to be more painful.

Offline Boston

  • FSW Founder
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,212
  • FSW Rifleman
    • Javelin Press
Re: The Future of Free State Wyoming?
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2006, 11:59:22 AM »
from Chill:
Quote
...On the contrary, New Hampshire has the smallest
legislative districts for state house representatives of all states...
Yes, but that consequently means the weakest reps in the nation.
TANSTAAFL...
What will 1 rep of 400 accomplish?   
They'd need 20 reps for even 5% of the house to be the swing votes.

Going after the house without first having local political influence is a very flawed
policy in my view.  And, NH counties are not the local linchpins; the townships are.  (Good luck!)

On a related note, I think that FSPers running for office under FSP auspices or support
(however vague) is a political mistake given the significant local resistance to the FSP.
There are NH bumper stickers appearing:  Free Staters Go Home!
The main reason for that, IMO, is the FSP is overtly active in the political sphere.

My impression is that FSPers are trying to sell their politics before they've even
first sold themselves as good/reasonable neighbors.  The FSW gemeinshaft is the opposite.

This is why I've kept the FSW much more bland about political offices.
A free state org's raison d'etre is simply to attract freedom-minded relocators
and help them network--not engage in local/state politics, or even endorse
those who do.


Quote
Many FSP (NH) members have joined the political process by running for office as
Democrats, Republicans and Libertarians, and by getting involved with and working
on various political projects.
Many?  Hmmm.  I'd be surprised if more than a half-dozen of their 426 in NH have
actually run for office there.  Whatever the #, how many have won?  Hence, I'm not
yet seeing as much political activism there as you do.  It's no doubt more than the FSWers,
but hardly any large wave.


Quote
The bottom line is that, for whatever reason, it appears to me that FSP folks are much
more "into" politics than FSW folks.
Perhaps, for now.
The FSP has had a time lead over the FSW, and that has much to do with it, too.


Any FSWer is welcome to run for office and even champion themselves on this forum.
However, the FSW itself will never offer any particular endorsements.
We're not a political organization, and we won't blur that line, as has the FSP.

Boston
[/color]

Offline Paul Bonneau

  • Member, In Wyoming
  • Administrative Staff
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,480
    • Wyoming Liberty Index
Re: The Future of Free State Wyoming?
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2006, 10:05:15 AM »
Quote
On a related note, I think that FSPers running for office under FSP auspices or support
(however vague) is a political mistake given the significant local resistance to the FSP.

That's what I was talking about, when I mentioned "centralized" efforts in New Hampshire.

As to the Republican party being dominant in Wyoming, that is so, but it is also pretty irrelevant. For one thing, it just means the important election is the primary, not the general election. Competition between Demopublicans and Republicrats is one thing that can have an effect on freedom, but it is hardly the only thing. Anyway, D's do pretty well in some parts of the Wyoming.

Wyoming appears to be less political than NH. That is because personal connections more often substitute for politics, which is natural in a small-town/rural state. I think things are developing here as they should; it may also be the case that things in NH are developing as they should. What's clear is that big city-style politicking would be pretty out of place here.
Laws turn men into slaves.