Author Topic: Resistance to unjust authority  (Read 20932 times)

Offline Terence

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Re: Resistance to unjust authority
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2014, 03:25:21 PM »
Is that what you are? One with no higher authority?

Yes.

Well, Good morning, god.

I suppose with yourself as god your no atheist. No sense being against oneself.

In your exalted status why answer only one of the last four questions?
You're the most religious poster, here, by far. Why dodge direct questions, now?
They certainly remain unaddressed in your usual anarcho-atheist diatribes, thus far.
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Offline MamaLiberty

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Re: Resistance to unjust authority
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2014, 03:36:03 PM »
Well, Good morning, god.

I suppose with yourself as god your no atheist. No sense being against oneself.

In your exalted status why answer only one of the last four questions?
You're the most religious poster, here, by far. Why dodge direct questions, now?
They certainly remain unaddressed in your usual anarcho-atheist diatribes, thus far.

My sovereignty is over myself alone... as is yours. I neither pretend or want any authority over anyone else. I am happy to cooperate with any number of people, which does not negate my sovereign authority or theirs.

The sovereign authority of each human being springs from the same source as life itself. You have to answer that question for yourself...  You can't answer it for me. And I have zero obligation to defend that or explain anything, especially in a hostile environment.

You believe and do as you wish, of course. I have nothing more to say to you.
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Offline Seniortech

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Re: Resistance to unjust authority
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2014, 04:47:42 PM »
May I comment?
Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods.
A. Einstein

Offline Terence

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Re: Resistance to unjust authority
« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2014, 05:52:25 PM »
May I comment?

Just reading your question, now, John, just before responding to the latest.
Feel free to ignore and looking forward to your commentary.

Terence
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Offline Terence

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Re: Resistance to unjust authority
« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2014, 05:52:42 PM »
My sovereignty is over myself alone... as is yours.

Best refrain from imputing aspects of my assumed sovereignty until semantic mismatch(es) might be resolved. I’m not convinced they are and we’ve established that you may not ever speak for me.

I neither pretend or want any authority over anyone else. I am happy to cooperate with any number of people, which does not negate my sovereign authority or theirs.

One with no higher authority is properly described as a god. Who cares what you, momentarily, say you “Want”, in contrast to what you say you are: a god. Recall your  succinct “yes” to having no higher authority as it may have  ramifications beyond your intent.

Your a self-pronounced god, now, honey. Whether or not you decide to extend your archist rule (How ironic for an anarchist) is just good or bad luck for the rest of us earthlings.

The sovereign authority of each human being springs from the same source as life itself. You have to answer that question for yourself...  You can't answer it for me.

That’s the same question you been asked and won’t answer! So, what is your answer? From where does the source of life spring?  No one on this thread has attempted to answer the question for you. You’ve been asked, and shy away from, the answer by re-asking the question as if it’s some previously un-introduced idea. Not at all, do tell, do answer.

“And I have zero obligation to defend that or explain anything, especially in a hostile environment.”

Rare disagreement amidst the avalanche of your “anarcho-atheist” (Do correct, if inaccurate)  religious beliefs is described by you as a "hostile environment”?

Welcome to the world you’ve created. Strain to recognize what the rare and odd disagreement, without hostility,  looks like.

You believe and do as you wish, of course. I have nothing more to say to you.

I disagree with your religion and you have nothing to say?  Unlikely, but if so, perhaps your previously related posts should be reevaluated as unevaluated.

Even in this one thread you’ve left at least three fundamental questions of your own dogma unanswered.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 06:04:55 PM by Terence »
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Offline Old Ironsights

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Re: Resistance to unjust authority
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2014, 09:40:53 PM »
Well, golly Terrence.

One small question...  In a discussion of Secular Authority, is it Rational to assume that a person declaring that there is no legitimate "higher authority" other than Self  is talking about non-secular matters?

Can one's Personal Sovereignty be assumed to be more justifiably derived from God than secular sovereignty (which only has Paul to back it up)?

If one is to accept Paul's position on Secular Sovereignty then aren't we all TheoPolitical SLAVES to whichever "Authority" has declared itself to be the "legitimate authority" that Paul declares MUST exist at the behest of God?

Sorry.  Paul is no more the Arbiter of Theology than Muhammad is.

If Paul is "Right" then the EXISTENCE of the (Original/Founder's) US is a CRIME AGAINST GOD... AS IS ANY RESISTANCE TO TYRANNY THAT IS NOT IN ANTI-PAULINE DOCTRINAL OPPOSITION.

According to Pauline dogma, one can only (nonviolently) oppose anti-Pauline repression... and even then your best hope is for submissive martyrdom.

And you think that what some of us mean by "no higher (secular) authority" is somehow denying the Supreme Authority of Divinity?

Sorry, your theology just doesn't wash.

God #1
Me/Family #2
Philosophy #3
Secular "authority" way at the bottom.
Anarchy ungodly? See 1 Sam. 8

The desire to control the life of others is more evil than the desire to simply kill them.
The desire to control the life of others by proxy, through “voting”, is just as evil… but more cowardly.

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Offline Boston

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Re: Resistance to unjust authority
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2014, 11:41:05 AM »
O.I. --
Pauline:  Are you referring to our Paul Bonneau or the Apostle Paul?   :D

___
Hmmm, interesting thread. 
It does seem to me that Susan's philosophy must indeed resolve to self godhood.
If that is an unwarranted interpretation, I'd like to learn why.  (She can reply to me, if not to Terence.)

___
Seniortech, please do comment.

Regards,

Boston

Offline Terence

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Re: Resistance to unjust authority
« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2014, 12:20:57 PM »
Well, golly Terrence.

One small question...  In a discussion of Secular Authority, is it Rational to assume that a person declaring that there is no legitimate "higher authority" other than Self  is talking about non-secular matters?

Great question.

Formulate “rules” for dealing with authority without understanding them in the context of Reality, as was being done here in typical anarcho-atheistic fashion, and the four dimensions to which the discussion was limited will be made into a prison.

Is it rational to discuss radio waves and light while limiting  the discussion to four dimensions? How much can a fish learn about the ocean if nobody bothers to tell him that  he’s studying in an aquarium?

Like radio waves and light, discussions about authority,  and now sovereignty, extend beyond the four dimensions.  Even science, always pathetically late to the game, has settled on either 10 or 11 dimensions as comprising what is referred to as Reality. So, what’s all the fuss and “surprise” about if such important matters are discussed in full context, here?

If someone tried to figure out whether sound or light had an effect on the trajectory of a bullet, on this forum, would it be “irrational” to do so?

Those who successfully oppress, TPTB and all who comprise them, have been outplaying the population on such matters for centuries.

How about a little thinking outside their box for change?


Can one's Personal Sovereignty be assumed to be more justifiably derived from God than secular sovereignty (which only has Paul to back it up)?

Yes. I don’t see Personal Sovereignty as derived in any way from secular sources.

If one is to accept Paul's position on Secular Sovereignty then aren't we all TheoPolitical SLAVES to whichever "Authority" has declared itself to be the "legitimate authority" that Paul declares MUST exist at the behest of God?

Interesting term, “TheoPolitical”.

The weak and incompetent reading of Romans 13 that remains tragically uninvestigated by so many Christians has been leveraged by many a tyrant to do just that.

Interpreted thoroughly, however, the same words contain much insight to keep from being sucked into all manner of slavery.

Sorry.  Paul is no more the Arbiter of Theology than Muhammad is.


Arbiter? I haven’t had much occasion to look at Paul’s  writings in that respect. On reflection, arbitration was an occasional task for Paul in sorting out the early churches. Such passages are not many, however, in comparison to the rest of his work.

Since Muhammad was the most successful con-man in history i think there is much to learn about what not to do from him. In comparison, L. Ron Hubbard is a walk in the park.

If Paul is "Right" then the EXISTENCE of the (Original/Founder's) US is a CRIME AGAINST GOD... AS IS ANY RESISTANCE TO TYRANNY THAT IS NOT IN ANTI-PAULINE DOCTRINAL OPPOSITION.

Lot’s of capital letters, here!

There is no command by God to erect a government. The only organizational structure recommended was the advice to Moses to pick men the people trusted to judge matters so he wouldn’t be overwhelmed with such requests.

Even Rothbard refers to this period as one of two long-term successful periods of anarchy (The other being the early Celts, IIRC).

The pleadings of people to appoint an earthly king over them was a sinful rebellion against God. If one reads through the Bible, line by line, asking the question, “Is this where God says to form a government?” the reader will get to the end of the book and find nothing.

I agree with Rothbard that the counter-revolutionary war was a just war, as was the civil war between the states. What was done, afterwards, is a different can of worms.

Then again, I wouldn’t have begged for a king, as the people did in the time of Samuel.


According to Pauline dogma, one can only (nonviolently) oppose anti-Pauline repression... and even then your best hope is for submissive martyrdom.

Much of what Paul wrote was written from jail. If one is looking for passivity amidst oppression or “law abiding” (man’s law) behavior then he’s not much of a role model. If one is looking to be free and maximize their liberty on earth, however, he’s hard to beat.

I thought there were lots of Romans 13 threads, here, so will keep it brief: Read through it in greek as if it’s advice for dealing with all sorts of “powers” and with government being only one of those powers. Start seeing it as some kind of endorsement or advice to create such powers and it all goes terribly wrong (As well as being inaccurate).

And you think that what some of us mean by "no higher (secular) authority" is somehow denying the Supreme Authority of Divinity?

Not at all IF I had seen anyone on this forum, besides you just now, referring to anything
outside of the four-dimensions in front of their face. Taking it further, as you've done, and referring to
the mere possibility of a "Supreme Authority of Divinity" is quite a leap for this forum.

I think doing so will provide useful liberty yielding results and hopefully in the next
few posts or so.

Sorry, your theology just doesn't wash.

What theology is that?  It’s quite rare for me to discuss these matters on this forum or anywhere else, up until now.  This thread didn’t take much of a theological turn until this exchange, here, with the response to your questions.

Sorry, your theology just doesn't wash.
God #1
Me/Family #2
Philosophy #3
Secular "authority" way at the bottom.

Is this yours or part of what you’re saying that doesn’t wash? I can’t tell which from the context.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 12:30:36 PM by Terence »
Liberty is “Stolen” by your own signature. Find the adhesion contracts and deal with them.

Offline Paul Bonneau

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Re: Resistance to unjust authority
« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2014, 12:28:34 PM »
I suspect the Paul being discussed is Saint Paul, not me.  :)

Quote
It does seem to me that Susan's philosophy must indeed resolve to self godhood.

If one thinks in terms of gods, I suppose.  :)

I must confess this thread leaves me scratching my head. I don't see why anyone should get hot over the nature of authority - unless one's intention is to impose that view at a later date. If there is no such intention, then the question becomes more an academic one, and there should be no heat.
Laws turn men into slaves.

Offline Terence

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Re: Resistance to unjust authority
« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2014, 12:37:16 PM »
I must confess this thread leaves me scratching my head. I don't see why anyone should get hot over the nature of authority - unless one's intention is to impose that view at a later date. If there is no such intention, then the question becomes more an academic one, and there should be no heat.

I'm hoping this all leads to some useful payoffs, soon.

Regarding "imposing that view at a later date" I think of it more like
a physics equation: It's useful to know that F=MA and to recognize
the repetition of universal constants that keep coming up over and over again
like 'e' or the speed of light.  It's discovery and recognition, not imposition.
Liberty is “Stolen” by your own signature. Find the adhesion contracts and deal with them.

Offline Paul Bonneau

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Re: Resistance to unjust authority
« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2014, 12:54:49 PM »
Actually I can think of another reason to get hot: one's own beliefs are shaky, and seeing other's expressed looks like a challenge or attack on them.

Just to move this along some more...
Quote
Cite "necessity of survival" as the source of authority and they'll put you in the same cage as the horses and the ducks.

One does not have to think we are the same as ducks and horses, to believe that at least some of their motivations still also drive us. Or are you suggesting a will to live no longer drives us?

Quote
That's when sovereignty was given (According to you), not from where.
It seems strange to me to talk as if it was "given". Why couldn't it just result from conception? Did the sperm give it to the egg, or vice-versa?

If God is in the picture, that is all right, but it won't work very well as an explanation for people who don't believe he exists, and perhaps also not for those who think it an open question. I suppose you were questioning Susan because she is not in those groups.
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Offline MamaLiberty

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Re: Resistance to unjust authority
« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2014, 01:04:05 PM »
If God is in the picture, that is all right, but it won't work very well as an explanation for people who don't believe he exists, and perhaps also not for those who think it an open question. I suppose you were questioning Susan because she is not in those groups.

Maybe this is the root of the problem - and I was not seeing it. I am NOT a "christian" or religious in any way. I used to go to church, studied the bible and all the rest for most of my life. The more I studied, the less I believed - and the more I realized that I never believed any of it.

I accept a "Creator," and that the creator is the source of my life and my soverignty, but I can't explain it any more than I can fly unaided to the sun and back.
It's not that people are dumber, it's that stupidity used to be more painful.

Offline Seniortech

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Re: Resistance to unjust authority
« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2014, 03:37:17 PM »
Hearing no objection I will continue. 

None of us, in the strictest sense, are “sovereign individuals.”

There is an Order in the Universe and in the world we inhabit.  This Order is instituted by the Creator God referred to in the Declaration: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”  This is not the complete list of unalienable rights with which we are endowed but these are certainly on the list. 

Man is also endowed by his Creator with certain unalienable obligations.  There is a Natural Law which we are required to obey.  This is the Malum in se, to which we cannot plead ignorance.  The same Creator who has set order in the Universe and has endowed us with certain unalienable rights  has also instituted the Natural Law.  For example, the authority of a father over his son is part of Natural Law. What could be more natural?   If we neglect to properly exercise that authority the price we will pay is a ding-a-ling rebel kid, and that is just the start of it. 

Another item on the unalienable rights list is the freedom to choose.  We are free to choose to not obey the Natural Law but there is a price to be paid if we so choose, and we will pay that price.  But we should not confuse freedom of choice with sovereignty.  Freedom of choice does not make us sovereign individuals?  If we were sovereign then wouldn’t that mean that we could make any choice without any adverse consequences?  I mean, after all, who can question or punish a Sovereign?   But, as in the case of a wayward son resulting from our negligence we suffer some kind of punishment. 

The chaos that plagues us as a civilization is the result of our ignoring God’s immutable law and the evidence of this is a nation of ding-a-lings.  Witness the ding-a-ling in chief!  The idea that we can fix ourselves by our presumed individual sovereignty is doubtful at best and foolish at worst.  Whether we like it or not, admit it or not, we are all subject to the one Sovereign God.  If we are sovereign we are sovereign under God.

The question is not: Am I a sovereign individual?
The real question is: What does God require of me as a sentient being?
Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods.
A. Einstein

Offline Boston

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Re: Resistance to unjust authority
« Reply #43 on: August 29, 2014, 11:33:04 PM »
Well, I applaud everyone's patience and decorum here.
I think it an important thread, even if only "academic".  Perhaps especially if only academic.

I was once PMed the below:

Quote
I was created the owner of my life. That is, with sovereign authority over that life.

To my reckoning, therein lies the insoluable paradox.
Creatures cannot be sovereign in the fullest sense over their own lives.
This, I think, is Terence's main point.

I see the child:parent relationship as a metaphor for the creature:Creator relationship.
While we outgrew our parents' authority, we do not outgrow God's authority.
Seniortech (good to see you post!) touches on this to a degree.

I'll take it further, i.e., Z/NAP is not enough. 
It will not foment some kind of paradise, sorry.

Humans are sufficiently sovereign to reject the Lord, but not so sovereign as to negate the
consequences of that rejection.  We do have much authority over ourselves, and over our
Earth, but neither is unlimited.  I share Terence's frustration with the anarcho-atheist crowd
on this matter.  Had human beings been the answer, we'd have risen above our own muck
looooong ago.  We've not been waiting for Locke, or Paine, or Bastiat, or Rand to finally place
the last puzzle piece. 

No, rather, Jesus has been waiting for each of us to surrender to His loving, eternal sacrifice.
To finally admit that we are not Sovereign over our lives, which began without our will, knowledge, or effort. 
We must all get at least this right:  that we are spiritual beings having
temporarily a human/physical experience.  Miss that, and you'll miss the key to it all.

C.S. Lewis paraphrased it best with the admonition that we must all decide if Jesus was
liar, lunatic, or Lord.  In my own past spiritual laziness and secular arrogance, I tried to avoid
the matter.  Well, as I discovered, it cannot be avoided.   Those of us who do know this, are
frustrated with endless talk of human sovereignty -- nothing personal, Susan. 

In love, Agape,

Boston

Offline Old Ironsights

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Re: Resistance to unjust authority
« Reply #44 on: August 30, 2014, 03:51:19 PM »
To talk about Human Sovereignty in the Theological Sense is folly.

But it is NT folly to discuss it in the Political Sense.

No Human has ANY "authority" over my (non aggressive) actions/person without my explicit consent.

THAT is "personal sovereignty". 

Secular "authority" is a (largely) shared Stockholm Syndrome delusion... in the same way as our Constitutional Liberty is but a Hologram.

It is only the generalized insistence/acceptance/indoctrination created by Religious Hierarchy that concatenates subjugation to Deistic Sovereignty with subjugation to Secular "Sovereignty" (usually defined as some sort of extension of Deistic Sovereignty - i.e "God Ordained that I "Rule"...).

At any rate, the two issues, Personal Sovereignty in relation to Theology, and Personal Sovereignty in relation to Secular "Authority" should NEVER be conflated...
Anarchy ungodly? See 1 Sam. 8

The desire to control the life of others is more evil than the desire to simply kill them.
The desire to control the life of others by proxy, through “voting”, is just as evil… but more cowardly.

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