Convincing Others FSW is "OK", or FSW Legitimacy

[Jason]

Ok, so I'm planning on coming to Wyoming this upcoming fall and my parents know of my plan, and have checked out the FSW, and so far have found nothing wrong with it, but they want some "outside" people to agree that it is not some wacko organization. I've showed them all the articles (and Boston's speech) about it from the "FSW Marketing" section, but that isn't enough for them. My dad sympathises with many of my views but my mom does less so (though far more so than mainstream non-Christian liberals). They are both Christian conservatives and generally vote "Christian" rather than "freedom", though my dad is much in agreement with many of my views and arguments. They say the FSW looks good, but "what if it is a wolf in lamb's clothing and once people start getting there, you are stuck, with no way out of Wyoming and are forced to do their evil plans?"

I am at a loss of what to tell them. They think it's good, but are a little skeptical and want to cover all the bases before "letting" me into something that could prove detrimental. How do I go about, 1) showing them libertarianism is basically their conservative beliefs and 2) that the FSW is full of upright, moral people, truly doing what the website says. I've told them Boston, the leader, is a Christian, and so are many members, and that it is NOT rascist as black people have joined the forum, plus it says so on the page, but they know they have heard there are lots of white supremacist groups "out there" and want to make sure you aren't one.

Is there a way to prove FSW's credibility? That it isn't a fraud? Or simply to convince them that it isn't. I know better, but they, being parents, are skeptical. (I guess that is their job )

And, how do you go about showing others that FSW isn't really all that extreme, and is really a bunch of good folks trying to get freedom and justice back like we once had? I'm talking about non-libertarians, that is.

Are there any other outside sources other than the one Durango, Co. Article about FSW that isn't bad? If so, what/where?

Last question: They say that as I'm just leaving high school I should take a year off before "doing something like this" and I told them "this" is just life. Can someone provide ways young adults can be involved make a differnce here, so I can tell them? Or reasons this isn't really a "must be involved" org. so they don't think I'm signing on to some slavery type scheme where I must do what the leader says, but rather a movement of like-minded folks simply all moving to one place and living their regular old, liberty-filled lives.

I'm sure these types of hints and sources that you guys give can be used by anyone trying to convince anyone else that the FSW isn't "wacko" and is truly on the "up and up". 

If all else fails, I'll be there, just 1 year from now instead of a few months. Oh well. If I get job/housing, they'll be much more comfortable letting me off to a new place right away. Which is what I'm working on right now.

Thanks all,

J

[appaloosablue]

J

Some points that may help..

1.? You are are not moving to a commune...you are free to choose where in the state you want to live.
2.? I am a 35 year old married mother of 6, registerd nurse and have no interest in belonging to a group that wants to control my life
? ? ?more.? If you look around the forum it is apparent that it takes all types and that the only thing that truly connects all of us is the
? ? ?prospect of true liberty.
3.? There is no propoganda being passed around to indoctrinate you---that would be a website that you read and not a forum where
? ? ?the members actively participate.
4.? Last time I checked people were free to move in and out of WY on their own accord--refer to #1.
5.? If you signed a statement of intent let them read it---all it states is that you are moving to WY by a certain date thats it, end of
? ? ?story.? It does not have any other kooky religous, policital, E.T. or racist agenda.
6.? I am a Christian, some on the forum are not but that does not preclude them from liberty.? In fact it should strengthen the
? ? prospect of true liberty.
7.? The minute someone starts telling the 'Members' what they can and can't do you'll be sure to see a dramatic loss of numbers.
8.? The people of this forum are not followers.? They would just a soon as belong to some kooky group that controls them as give
? ? ?up their rights to bear arms.? NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
9.? Boston has written a book that has given many insight into what true liberty and self reliance are.? That does not make us
? ? followers.? It instead makes human beings who share like minded goals and are willing to help one another.
10.? Many of the members have offered new comers to the state help, my husband and I included.? This is not being done to
? ? ? control.? It is being done out of compassion and a great desire?to help fellow humans who share the same goals get to WY.?

Also keep in mind that they are your parents and they are just concerned for you---you are at a critical age and will soon be under their care no longer.  This is a scary crossroad for parents.

Brandy
?

[rhodges]

It sounds to me like your parents have made up their minds, and that their insistence on "proof" is simply a disguised refusal.  In my opinion, it is probable that no amount of third party corroboration will suffice.

What if your next friend betrays you?  What if your next job takes all your hard work, breaks their promises, and treats you unfairly?  What if your girlfriend leaves you for someone else?  What if you buy a used car and it breaks down?  What if you slip on the sidewalk and hurt yourself?  What if you rent a movie and don't like it? Are you willing to patiently provide a comprehensive risk audit every time you meet someone new, look for a job, buy a used car, walk outside the house, or rent a movie?  Living life is about learning.  Yes, you will make mistakes.  So what?!  You will learn from them and be better for the experience.

You have already done your research, and apparently have decided that the people and principles of FSW are a good fit.  Be welcome!  But many people will NEVER agree with our ideas of liberty, free trade, and personal responsibility.  You will not be able to persuade them.  If your parents are in that box, I do not see any useful purpose in trying to do the impossible.

Tell your parents that you love them, and you will be glad to listen to all the advice they wish to give.  But you have your own path to take and lessons to learn.  When you have decided what path is right for you, nobody has the right to push you down some other path.

[Fred Rogers]

You could point to the undivided mindset here.

My wife and I recently visited Wyoming and met with one FSW member, at least, I believe Jared is a member.  Having read Molon Labe, Hologram of Liberty, and parts of Boston's Gun Bible, the idea that like-minded people could actually get together and agree about issues, seems like a miracle.  I don't imagine total agreement on all the petty issues is attainable.  But I imagine agreement on the bigger issues is a reality.

The simple fact that people from all walks of life, from all areas of the country are saying and writing the same thing about what matters most to them should be evidence enough that the idea of FSW is "kooky" or whatever other word one could apply to it.

It's difficult to imagine that anyone reading what is written here could conclude anything more than that there are here people who have had more than enough with gov't trying to legislate every area of their life.  I don't believe anything is hidden here; most express their thoughts openly.  And to say that everyone is in total agreement is wrong.  We're all independent and have our own ideas but most are ready to listen and learn and to add their thoughts.

[Space Cowboy]

Have your parents read Molon Labe? The SOI?

When communicating with someone, it is always easier to communincate if you have common reference points.

I have personally found it difficult to get across the FSW "idea" in just a single conversation. For me, it involves a study of history, economics, socialology and life experiances.

Bottom line for all of this, is, we're generally just a bunch of good people trying to make a life that is a little freer (and better) than we have found elsewhere.

SC

[wyomiles]

J, the only thing that will convince your parents that the people here are OK would be for them to come to a JAM, most of my freinds and family think I have gone off the deep end and joined a cult . For this reason I took my brother to the 2006 JAM. He had a great time, he saw that there were no secret initiation rights under the full moon at midnight. He saw that there are a group of great people here who see something wrong with america and are looking for an alternative. Now when my family asks me about this group I tell them to ask my brother. Next year I hope to take some of my nephews to the JAM.
 
I am a parent too and the world is a crazy, sometimes deadly place, and parents who love thier kids do not want to see them get hurt. The reality is that we all have to be exposed to this world, we make choices every day, some work out ,some don't. All we have is our faith that god will watch over us.  As christians your folks should understand this.

 What if you told your folks that you were going off to college ,far away from them? They would still be worried for you but they would probobly be excited for your opportunity?  When I went away to college I was exposed to all sorts of "non christian" activities. I experienced some things that scared the hell out of me. But it was college, it was "acceptable".  There were very few people there to guide me through it and most there did not give a damn about me.  But in america we send our kids away to college all the time ! 

The FSW, to me, is like a college, in that I am learning so many things, but unlike college there are many people here I would trust with my life. I had to spend a weekend camping with them at the 2006 JAM to truly find this out. And in fact many of them are more "christian" than many christians I know. ( even the ones who are athiests  )  History shows us many times that our young people have made a huge difference. In fact being young is in your favor because you still have energy and hope.
  I am free to move to Wyoming . I am free to associate with the FSW once I get there ,or not. And at the end of the day if I find that I have made a mistake in "joining" I can walk away and go back home.       So can you.         Miles

[Jed Bodacious]

J Santeria,

Tell them any time someone uses "group speak" it's almost guaranteed that they will get slapped down for it. Nothing like a cult!

I like your phrase of voting Christian rather than voting Freedom, my parents are much the same way, and in fact most of the people I live around vote that way. Frankly it drives me crazy, and if there were one hesitation in me about the FSW it would be this issue. While I would go down fighting for the right of others to practice whatever religion they choose, I do not want to live under their religious views.

Here is a good source for the Libertarian Christian or those hoping to convince other Christians to support freedom. http://www.theadvocates.org/christian/index.html

Honestly I think this is an intellectual fight we need to win, freedom and Christianity can co-exist, but people need to be and stay informed and vigilant.

Freedom has to be the hardest thing to keep; it is so vulnerable from all directions.

Jed Bodacious

[ZackSkrip]

Hey J.

I can kind of relate in the parent issue. not that they were against my going to the JAM (they weren't), but the idea of their son traveling 1,000 miles to go camping with a bunch of people he had never met did kind of bother them. My dad's comment to me: I hope they don't make you hold the targets.   

No matter how you broach it (at least as far as I have found) you will always come across as an extremist nutcase. The people your age and my age are not really into thinking about politics when the 'cool' thing is to go to parties and get plastered. You talking about firearms and liberty and free trade will often seem to them a non sequitur because you'll be starting from a different premise.

I agree with what was written above: Go to the next JAM! I went and I still keep in surprisingly good contact with many of the people that I met there, including Brandy's husband.

At 18 I was highly impulsive (most would say that that hasn't changed), if I were you I would keep in contact with people here and then come out to the JAM next year. Talk to RichardF, he came to the JAM and liked it enough he drove a few miles to Casper and got an apartment. Bam. He's here now.

The people here are amazing; this isn't a cult and they don't make you hold the targets, but the only way to know that for sure is to experience it.

Seeya at the next JAM?

Zack

[Jared]

Driiiiiiink the KooooolAiiiiid!!!



...but seriously -
> ""what if it is a wolf in lamb's clothing and once people start getting there, you are stuck, with no way out of Wyoming and are forced to do their evil plans?""

Not sure how to take this.  It's not like you'll be living in a dorm, with FSW keeping your paycheck and giving you bread and water in exchange.

You'll have your own apartment, your own job, your own vehicle, etc.  If you like it in Wyoming, sweet ...if you don't, you'll try somewhere else, etc etc.

Shoot, most commercial gyms have scarier membership agreements than the FSW - the Friends episode where Chandler tries to quit his gym is hilarious.

[Jason]

Thanks everyone for the great replies and input. Let me add one more question, maybe one only Boston or staff can answer: If we sign the SOI in and become members (which states we will make legal residence in WY by 7yrs of that date), are we free to move back out of WY if we have needs to do so, say after 4 or 5,  yrs of living in WY and giving to the FSW (with or without the intent of returning, the answer may be different for each of those). The reason I ask is b/c my parents are scared that if something goes wrong, my career changes, an emergency happens, my life goals change, etc. then I am stuck in WY for the rest of my life. I figured that, being based on voluntary cooperation, if we have a real need to move, esp. a temporary one, then we would be free to do so.

It sounds to me like your parents have made up their minds, and that their insistence on "proof" is simply a disguised refusal.  In my opinion, it is probable that no amount of third party corroboration will suffice.

Not true. Actually, they have not made up their minds. They think it looks good on the surface but want "proof" and third party corroboration to make sure it is what it says it is and isn't "bad".

Have your parents read Molon Labe? The SOI?

Molon Labe, No. The SOI, yes. I have told them of some of the laws passed in Molon Labe to get them a basic idea of FSW's goals and that helps. But they are a little sketchy about "extreme liberty" and suspicious of "anti-gov" types (which I guess I am). They (my mom esp.) see people who are against the federal government as trying to fight authority and find a way to do what they want, rather than bring back true liberty and justice to the land. They think some of the facts shown to them are simply "left-wing, one sided" arguments. Especially when I talk about being against the war in Iraq and telling them that soldiers actually come home wishing they weren't there fighting an unjust war. She says things like "FSW is just a way for people to do what they want without getting in trouble" or "They are running from the problem, not fixing it". (It's obviously too late to "fix" it, else the FSW wouldn't exist as a last ditch attempt, but they don't realize how bad off and close to police state America really is - but I'm working on that every day and am slowly making progress - one day I think they will be "libertarians", at least in belief, if not voting registration.)

Anyway, hope this helps you get a better picture,

J

[MamaLiberty]

Those convinced against their will, are of the same opinion still....

J, you can and should continue to help your parents understand your philosophy and what you feel is right to do, of course. But at some point, you just have to make a decision and follow your own way, even if they never come to accept it or adpot it for themselves.

You are a unique individual, with a God given mind and soul. Eventually you must do what is right for YOU. Then, perhaps when your parents see how happy, prosperous and free you are, they will come to understand.

Seize the day!
MamaLiberty

[Paul Bonneau]

Geez, J, you're just out of high school? I'm impressed you can write a coherent post. 

Can't blame parents for being parents. Try it some day, you'll see. As for myself, I inadvertently solved this problem many years ago when I had a serious case of teen rebellion. When I left home I wrote my parents essentially that I thought everything they believed in was crap, and I was going to do whatever the hell I felt like doing. Strangely, we've been on great terms ever since, a lot better in many ways than some of my siblings who never really got around to "cutting the cord". They'd never dream of questioning me (seriously, anyway) on something I'm doing. They trust me by now, as I'm still alive and out of jail at age 56. 

However this is not a method I'd really recommend.  You never know how it will turn out. But it is important to establish independence. I never took a dollar from them after leaving home at 18 either, even for college.

About the white supremacist thing, you might inform them I have a Chinese wife and a son of indeterminate race (the whole concept of race is a crock anyway). It might mean something to them that I've been with this group from the beginning.

[Shawn]

Hey J.

The people here are amazing; this isn't a cult and they don't make you hold the targets, but the only way to know that for sure is to experience it.

Seeya at the next JAM?

Zack

HEY!!? How come I had to hold targets?? Just kidding.? I was actually quite pleased to note that safety at the range was paramount.

[Lady Liberty]

Welcome, J!

Now keep in mind ? and feel free to tell your parents ? that I welcome you despite the fact that you and I are already apparently quite different. In fact, most of the membership of FSW is quite different from the other individuals in the group. Read the forum, and take note:

There are people here who are married and have children. There are people here who don't even LIKE them.

There are people here who are Christian. There are others of other religions. And there are some folk with no religion at all.

There are people here who like to work with their hands. There are others who much prefer to work with their minds.

There are those with and without college educations. There are the young ? such as yourself ? and others with considerably more life experience.

There are married and single folk, male and female, from almost every state in the union and virtually every background in upbringing.

My point is that, in a real "cult" of the sort your parents seem to fear, we'd all have to agree, and all have to be willing to play "follow the leader." The fact is that the one thing we do all seem to agree on is that we don't want to play "follow the leader." We want to decide for ourselves what the best things for our own lives and families might be, and then to have the freedom to exercise our all-important choices. The only way to do that is to lessen as much as we can the "Big Mother" influences of big government.

I don't blame your parents for their concern. As a child they love, it's their job to be concerned. But the one argument I used to great effect with my own parents (I left for the big city at 18 and never looked back) was this: If you've really done the job you've tried to do as parents, then you've got to trust my decisions. And you might even point out to them that that's really all the FSW is about: the ability to make our own decisions ? and mistakes, as the case may be ? as responsible and free adults ought.

Good luck! And welcome once again ?

LL

[Sean_Galt]

I guess my big question is how do you even FIND outside people who would be able to give an objective opinion? Anyone I have mentioned FSW to so far (and given/sold a copy of Molon Labe!) have almost immediately bought into the idea, even if they are not able to practically participate (in their current situations.)

Out of almost 50 copies of the book sold or given away, and just as many or more discussions with different sets of folks, I have had ONE person make the lame comment "its a dumb idea that will never work. Y'all are one big target." Then that person moved from the midwest to Reconquista territory.

Good luck finding outsiders. If you come up with anything in that arena, please share the info. I bet we could all use it, eventually. I suspect that the only outsiders that could make informed opinions might be from other free-state type movements, or just plain old Gulchers from elsewhere (who may also be disqualified as being "cult-like.")

Almost sounds like an impossible task, if I were in your situation; Aka a snipe hunt- but I hope it works out to where they decide to come with you!