Why I carry a gun (Sundance)

[Derringer]

I felt the need to start a new thread in reply to the post by Jackpot. If ANYONE on here has a right to voice their opinion on this subject it is me, and Ill explain why. I can show you why Wyoming needs to be guard against the mentality that your freedoms don't matter, and it is up to the Police (state) to protect you. What happened in Vermont WILL happen in WY if the people let it!

Vermont, for it's size is still the most rural state in America. Due to it's close proximity to Massachusetts and the Peoples Republic of New Jersey, we have had an influx of what many would brand "ultra left wing extremists". They started moving here in droves about 10 years ago, and brought big change to this beautiful rural agricultural farming state. The city of Burlington and surrounding Chittenden County was targeted by these people to be the choice location to move to. They came in droves with Massachusetts and New Jersey political idealogy, and were determined to reshape Vermont into their idea of a socialist state. Then came the Sudanese refugee programs, the sweeping welfare programs and the word got out about how easy it is to get welfare in VT. Within the past few years hard core drug dealers have moved in from NJ and MA and taken over, selling crack and heroin on streetcorners while their naive VT girlfriends collect benefits and prostitute themselves. Then the shootings started, the home invasions, and the armed robberies. The same blight that was caused by their socialist programs in Newark New Jersey were now happening in rural Vermont! I have always carried a gun, but now the reason is apparant. Violent crime is out of control. If it can happen in Vermont it's just a matter of time before it comes to Sundance.

I have not moved to WY yet, but I see the same thing in the future for your state if you don't draw a line in the sand! I just saw an article on CNN about someone who kidnapped a girl in Nebraska and drove her to Montana (thru WY). I read on a WY sheriff's hompage about the meth problem, and the associated crime that is out of control. Why do I carry a gun? I think it's a no brainer! I choose not to carry a big sixgun in an open holster and swagger down main street in Sundance, but I do carry a powerful .357 Bond Derringer and so does my wife tucked in our belts. A very un-obtrusive gun, but I really don't care if the grip becomes visible and offends you! I have been carrying for 28 years and have had to pull it 2wice to defend against armed  robberies without having to fire it. In both cases the moron ran away, thank goodness I had it. I normally conceal my pistol so I have the advantage, but open carry sends a clear message that this state allows people the right to defend themsleves, and it will be obvious to criminals who will move on to areas where there is less of a risk to them. They don't care if they take your life, just look at the national statistics. The free staters are moving to and organizing in WY so at least there is one state where their freedoms are intact and criminals are not welcome to victimize innocent hardworking folk! It is not some cult, militia, political  or religious group. It is just freedom loving like minded INDIVIDUALS who also understand the meaning of unity and working together as neighbors! If you don't think there is a VIOLENT crime epedemic in this country you are fooling yourself. A gun is nothing more than a tool to protect your life and put food on the table. England has a total ban on handguns and their violent crime is at an all time high: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3419401.stm

If you really don't like your freedom, and want the police protecting you, criminals keeping you behind bars in your house, and the state deciding your very move, I suggest you move to CA, NJ, MA, NY, DC, MD, IL where guns are banned and the state licenses and controls you!

I am not a right wing republican AT ALL, and I don't even support Bush! I am a centered libertarian ( http://www.lp.org/ ) type that believes in the constitution and my freedoms. I believe in peace, diplomacy, BORDR SECURITY. If we loose that we are no longer America! Do you understand that Vermont was always squeaky clean and Apple Pie American? Read about the "New Vermont" and see what can easily migrate to WY from CA ..........

Here are some really good articles borrowed from another VT poster on OC.org:

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/specialnews/heroin/story2.htm

http://media.www.vermontcynic.com/media/storage/paper308/news/2007/02/27/News/Robberies.Leave.Vermont.On.Edge-2745963.shtml

http://alphecca.com/mt_alphecca_archives/002550.html

http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs07/722/overview.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry

[Jackpot]

Whoa....ok.  If this is intended for me, which it blatenly is, than you should have probably sent this as a PM or even just added it to the thread i had started.  From what i gather from your post its a good thing your coming, your gonna save us.  Did you ever stop to think that maybe Wyoming isnt like all these other states for a reason?  Weve managed thus far to keep our state relatively quiet and clean without too much debacle.  Im not condemning anyone that carries a gun publicly but it does make me feel uncomfortable when  a stranger is carrying.  I have no idea what that persons intent is, and most of the time im with my family so you can hopefully see that this is not all just dilusions.  I can see your point and on alot of degrees i concur with carrying a pistol, but at other points and times that you might be carrying i feel differently about it.  Its your perogative to carry whenever you want and thats your business but when you wear a gun publicly for everyone to see it becomes everyones business whether you like it or not, its just that way man. 

Once again this is your right, and if your past warrants such measures as carrying publicy thats your freedom that no one can hamper, just dont expect many smiles and rays of sunshine for it. 

[MamaLiberty]

Jack, I'd really like to understand your reasons for being uncomfortable with someone who open carries. What in your experience would cause this? A stranger could harm you in many ways, and just as easily could be carrying concealed. How is this better for you or your family? Does the average criminal carry openly?

I have not talked to anyone here in this small Wyoming town who has expressed any kind of discomfort with my openly carried revolver, or with me as a person. I've found only support and encouragement here, even from the sheriff and local police.

I"d like very much to understand exactly why the sight of an older lady - prepared to defend herself with a gun - would disturb you so much. Or anyone else who was not threatening you or your family. Can you elaborate? MamaLiberty

[mikeyali1776]

Jack, I'd really like to understand your reasons for being uncomfortable with someone who open carries. What in your experience would cause this? A stranger could harm you in many ways, and just as easily could be carrying concealed. How is this better for you or your family? Does the average criminal carry openly?

I have not talked to anyone here in this small Wyoming town who has expressed any kind of discomfort with my openly carried revolver, or with me as a person. I've found only support and encouragement here, even from the sheriff and local police.

I"d like very much to understand exactly why the sight of an older lady - prepared to defend herself with a gun - would disturb you so much. Or anyone else who was not threatening you or your family. Can you elaborate? MamaLiberty

It don't think it is that crazy at all for open carry to be off-putting to some.  I open carry everywhere I can legally do so (except when I go to the bar) and it is met with apathy, curiosity and sometimes concern.  The merits of open carry aside, it is eccentric.  People fear what they do not understand.  However, here is what they do understand.  If you are openly carrying a pistol you have introduced a weapon into an environment that may or may not have a weapon.  Out of sight out of mind right?  This means that the potential for death is higher.  In other words, by being armed you have increased the odds in your favor, but you have also increased the bet.  A simple assault now has the capability of becoming a murder.  You have to think tactics here.  Whether or not you are armed is irrelevant to me if I were to rob you because I know that I can disarm you.  So unless you intend to draw upon every person that gets within a few paces of you when you are in public (which is quite obviously illegal) then a to a determined attacker you are of no threat at all.  What you have also introduced into an environment when you open carry is a person who everyone can see is comfortable with violence.  That too can be off-putting.  I speak not of the merits of any of this, only the facts of the situation.  It should be assumed that a person who carries a deadly weapon has gone through the motions mentally and is comfortable with the use of deadly violence to achieve their goals. 

Some aren't comfortable with this.  Then again, some aren't comfortable with people that use profanity.  In any case, the freedom to swear or pack heat shouldn't be removed.  If a person is uncomfortable with my carrying then they can leave.  By carrying you do make a situation safer.  But all of life is a game of odds.  By being armed you may prevent a situation from happening, diffuse a situation, or put an end to a deadly situation.  Then again, you might turn a simple mugging or drunken argument into a murder.  Such is why I don't OC in the bar.  Roll the dice.  There isn't a thing unusual about Jackpot feeling uncomfortable about OC in some situations.  It is also quite understandable that the uninitiated to be concerned with OC.  That is why OC'ers have a responsibility to educate without being preachy or smug about it.

mike

[Derringer]

No ones coming to WY to "save you". Some people are coming to WY to escape the opression of the "ultra left" agenda. Why am I not moving to Florida or other "bible belt" states then? B/C I don't want the opression of the "ultra right" either! It's a matter of finding a place to be free. This is not a utopian world where enlightened beings practice Qi Gong in unison, and live like Buddhist Monks in peace with each other and in harmony with nature. Everywhere you look in the world there is extreme violence, war, murder.... We have a long way to go as a species.... You seem focused on guns, like I said a gun is a tool. A policeman carries tools on his belt for a reason, so do I and so does my wife. Like I said I personally conceal most of the time, but that is my choice. As far as "saving WY" perhaps you need saving from yourselves! I am a PROUD native Vermonter. I saw my state go from a beautiful rural farm state where neighbor hels neighbor to a ghetto overun by crack dealers. Why b/c of apathy on the part of the stupid Vermonters who let it happen. Because of lefty ?"do gooders" who moved here to change everthing and make the state more like MA or NJ. DO you really want that to happen to WY? You ever see the movie An Unfinished Life with Robert Redford? That depicts they way Wyoming and all states should be. Where the evil violent felon is run out of town at the end of a rifle while the Sheriff looks the other way, and the black man who I see as opressed in the so called "left" states, is treated like a member of the family based on his behavior instead of his skin color. Fiction? Perhaps, but seems to me like a good free way to live the way it is depicted.

[bobcat]

Whether or not you are armed is irrelevant to me if I were to rob you because I know that I can disarm you.

Maybe, maybe not.  You make a lot of assumptions about others training and awareness.

Some aren't comfortable with this.  Then again, some aren't comfortable with people that use profanity.  In any case, the freedom to swear or pack heat shouldn't be removed.  If a person is uncomfortable with my carrying then they can leave.  By carrying you do make a situation safer.  But all of life is a game of odds.  By being armed you may prevent a situation from happening, diffuse a situation, or put an end to a deadly situation.  Then again, you might turn a simple mugging or drunken argument into a murder.  Such is why I don't OC in the bar.  Roll the dice.  There isn't a thing unusual about Jackpot feeling uncomfortable about OC in some situations.  It is also quite understandable that the uninitiated to be concerned with OC.  That is why OC'ers have a responsibility to educate without being preachy or smug about it.

Swearing and packing heat are apples and oranges.

Life IMHO is not a game of odds.  Luck or lack thereof is a result of preparation or lack thereof.

A simple mugging? or drunken argument?  If someone attacks me or mine with the intent of severe bodily injury, and I take DEFENSIVE action, that is exactly what it is, Defense in my eyes and the eyes of the law.  If the aggressor is killed while I am defending myself, it is clearly NOT murder.  Murder is an act of aggression without cause (not to be confused with motive). 

As far as OC'ers having the responsibility to educate, maybe some, but it is the responsibility of all citizens to understand the law.  If I chose to carry, according to the law of the state I am in, I am not required to justify to anyone unless law enforcement asks to see my ID and Permit(if required).

I am NOT trying to pick a fight here.  Quite the contrary, just calling them like I see them.  Sometimes I carry just to carry.  Eccentric?  Maybe, maybe not.  If I were expecting trouble, I would be carrying my 12ga.

[Jackpot]

I think there must be either a big misunderstanding at this point or a wall of defense that some of you cannot look past.  Iam not attacking any of you for openly carrying, thats your decision and i dont think any less of you for it.  Lets pretend we all know what eachother look like and we all have met before, isnt it great!  Now i know who you are and you know who I am.  If you walked into a local establishment carrying a weapon i wouldnt give a rats ass, in fact i might even question you on your handgun and what make it is.  Now lets spurt back to reality, I dont know you and you dont know me.  You walk into the same local establishment that im at with my little girl on my knee.  I dont know you from Adam, but just the same i see an individual with a gun stickin out of his belt, and even better someone walks in behind you with a gun in there belt.  Do you see now? 

Im not against the right to conceal or anything of that matter, Im just for Jackpot's family is all.  Guns dont make me nervous, People dont make me nervous, but strangers w/ guns that i have no idea about, nor what their agenda is about make me nervous.  Is this crazy talk or is this just instinct? 

Ive got a family that i love above all else and want to protect with every breathe in my body, so yes you make me nervous.....until i know its you.


BTW MamaLiberty i worry about people that carry openly that i dont know for the same reason you carry openly, kinda ironic eh?

[bobcat]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here.  I have been know to saw it off behind me so hopefully, you're not under the tree.

Jackpot and all,  I think what we are seeing here is a touchy subject getting discussed with some vigor at an electronic distance.  I, for one, would much rather be face to face while discussing  such an important subject, so as to read the rest of our communication, as in voice inflections, and body language.  I'll admit I could use a clearer picture...

Firearms aside for a moment:
I can't speak for anyone else but I would suggest we are all highly concerned about the well being of our families and would do almost anything to protect them, regardless of the threat or level of threat.  This is Job One.  We just have different ways of expressing that concern and prescriptions for getting that job done?  I would like to think most all of us in this discussion, while we have a few differences on point of view, appear to be on the same page?  I believe you are correct Jackpot, a misunderstanding, and I hope, not so big.

Another aspect of all this discussion is that several of us, especially those of us who have lived or have close relatives who have/do live in areas infiltrated by libs are particularly distressed at seeing many of our freedoms erode over time.  It's in our face and we all should be linking arms to put these commie libs in their place.  This is distressing to us to the point that 'we' don't want to see the slippage of freedom happen to anyone else.  That is, after all, what we are talking about, keeping our freedoms (&NOT just firearms freedoms).

Well, that's my attempt at fence mending.  It's late and I may not have gotten that Western Union splice quite right...

Respectfully

[Derringer]

Jackpot, Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's the sight of carried firearms combined with the fact you don't know the person or his intentions that bother you? In my line of work I have traveled into some pretty bad neighborhoods. I always carry concealed when working in such places. Now let's assume that someday Sundance becomes like Burlington Vermont. Individuals who dress like gang bangers and wear colors are hanging out on street corners and armed robberies increase just like the articles I cited in Vermont. Now are you going to worry if said bangers are carrying illegally (b/c most of them are felons) concealed firearms, or are you going to worry about the "cowboy" guy who carries his single action openly. Seems to me if you are in the store with your daughter and 5 rowdy gang bangers walk in talking about beating ho's, being in prison for robbery Etc you will get nervous. Now there are no Sheriff's Deputies for miles and in walks a "cowboy" open carrying, who are you going to worry about more? I am getting the feeling that you are afraid of guns in general, and you don't want your daughter exposed to seeing anyone other than police carrying, and I can understand that. But don't you understand that there is a violent crime epidemic in this country caused by drugs and gang bangers? It's in Iowa, Vermont, Colorado, Etc and not confined to NJ, MA, NY anymore. Now I for one conceal and have several licenses that allow me to do that in MANY states, but I think open carry also sends a message that there are legally armed citizens out there and some states do not restrict people so the only recourse in a call to the police AFTER the fact. Check out these stats on armed citizens using their tools to stop serious crime:   

http://www.combatcarry.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=58

No one is here to try and convince you you need to own a gun, or even like them. We are just saying that the leaglly armed citizen carrying open or concealed is not the issue. I am sure you have told your daughter or will when she is old enough to watch out for the "bad people", and not to talk to strangers. My suggestion is if she sees somone carrying a gun and asks you why just say "because there are bad people out there and good people are allowed to protect themselves". Don't teach her the mindset that she should rely on the police for everything b/c that is not realistic and you know it!

Here are some stats you probably don't want to see, and I can guarantee you it won't happen to my armed wife, you may need to copy and paste on the address bar since links don't seem to work here:

http://www.paralumun.com/issuesrapestats.htm

[FSW Forum Administrator]

Everybody needs to step back, take a breath, and relax. This is an emotional topic. Stick to discussing facts.

FSW Forum Admin

[MamaLiberty]

Seems we all labor under some misunderstandings and maybe a few preconceived notions.

First, I don't think most of us who carry a gun are "comfortable with violence" in the manner you seem to suggest. I know I'm certainly not, but I am prepared to deal with it. Having been a nurse for more than 20 years, spending time as triage nurse in a busy ER, I have seen violence and dealt personally with the after affects of it. I traveled extensively through some of the worst parts of Los Angeles and Riverside, going house to house seeing patients. I never had much doubt about who was a threat and who was not. The real threats were certainly not open carrying!

I don't need to be "comfortable" with gun violence, any more than with a tornado, but I know that I can deal rationally and effectively with the aftermath because I've been proven under some pretty severe situations. That doesn't mean that I'm guaranteed to succeed in my self defense, of course, but only that I will be able to do something besides die as a helpless victim.

I am well aware of the tremendous power of the tool I carry, and the AWESOME responsibility I have chosen to take on in carrying it - in addition to complete responsibility for my own life in every other way. This is not something I take lightly, and I make every effort to prepare myself to exercise that responsibility well.

My sincere prayer is that I never get into a situation where I am compelled to draw my sidearm. I think most people who carry feel the same way. But, if it is necessary, I will do my very best to stop the threat immediately with the least danger possible to others.

I'm sorry if some people perceive all strangers as threats without reason. That must make life very difficult. In my experience, "bad" people are pretty obvious and I don't need to see a gun to know that. They can kill me with a hammer or their hands if I'm not prepared to defend myself. I am vigilant and prepared, without being paranoid of everyone. It's a fine balancing act, for sure.

But most people are just as obviously not a threat, and the presence of an openly carried gun does not change that as far as I'm concerned. I look on them, instead, as potential allies and friends.

I hope to meet you all in June. You are all my potential allies and friends.

[bobcat]

ML, Thank you for your clear, lucid and calming comments.

[Jackpot]

There seems to be a preconceived notion that i must be terrified of guns.  This is not true and i do own several myself.  There is another thought that keeps swimming in your mind like a shark clouding your judgment is that I must be one of those guys, that depends on the police and that everything will always be alright.  This is also not true.  All this talk of bad neighborhoods and gang bangers that ive supposedly never seen or had to deal with.  I lived in Southern California for 5 years while active duty in the military.....oops did i say military, wanna talk about a bad neighborhood try Baghdad. 

Preconceived notions aside, Im not trying to say that you shouldnt OC but what i am saying is that in no way can you expect everyone in the world to put trust in the fact that you must be a good guy because you OC.  Is that so hard to grasp, really?  I trust all of your reasons to OC and havent got a problem with that.  Thats not the issue.  But what i warn you of is the fact that its hard to hug someone and welcome them to your community when all they see is a gun.  Thats what people see first and foremost, deny me that.  Im sure once they know the reasons behind your OCing than it will become apparant that you arent a threat and that you can be trusted, but as human nature proves time and time again its not going to be the first thing to pop into peoples minds right off the bat. 

By educating a community on the matter might make this a non-issue but your not gonna convince everyone nor will this be tolerated by everyone.  Everyone is different.

Once again if you didnt catch it the first time, I have no problem with OCing nor the reasons for which you do it, none whatsoever.  But i do have a problem with every stranger i meet that brings a weapon into a weapon free enviroment, thats just my stand on it.  Why not leave it in the truck or car, thats where i leave mine? 

[Derringer]

What is a weapons free environment? I assume in WY you mean courthouses, fedral building and other places off limits. I am glad you don't percieve me as a threat since I choose to carry all the time, but I conceal carry (with license) instead of open carry. I understand your point, out of sight out of mind. I feel the same way when I see someone dressed like a hoodlum/gangster. I need to figure out if he is a threat or someone that can be trusted.

[Paul Bonneau]

Someone mentioned that OC is "eccentric". That it is. However, Wyoming is also a state that has simulated western gunfights every evening in several cities including the capital, during the tourist season. OC may be "eccentric", but it ain't THAT eccentric. People will have to get used to OC, that's all; because it is going to get a lot less unusual. Those who simply can't get used to it, will just have to move to Denver I guess. This is a normal process, and one that advances freedom. Good (pro-RKBA) folks move in; hoplophobes move out. We want this to happen. We have no obligation to conform to the desires of people who can't stand the sight of a gun.

I actually wish it were easier to carry concealed, in which case I would often do that in preference to OC. But I finally understand it is wrong to ask government's permission to carry, and I don't want to be bothered about all the places where CC is "illegal". Current statute actually promotes OC at this point. When the legislators finally begin to respect the 2nd Amendment and pass Alaska Carry and dump the restrictions, then I will CC more. But I still will OC too, because it is something that needs to be done.

Why not leave it in the truck or car, thats where i leave mine?

I know a fellow who had a gun stolen out of his car. Here in Cody. I bet he doesn't leave his gun in the car any more. Anyway, what good does a gun in the car do, if you need it?

Seems like we like to rehash this issue over and over.