Author Topic: Wyoming Compared to South Dakota?  (Read 7052 times)

Offline ejalfree

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Wyoming Compared to South Dakota?
« on: May 15, 2009, 12:06:06 PM »
I've read some freedom scores that rate South Dakota as high and perhaps even higher than Wyoming. I don't have the figures in front of me so I don't know how each point of comparison stacks up. However, as someone wanting to head out to the area, can any of you Wyoming residents compare and contrast the two states? Is there something missing in the scores that you feel miss the point about either economic freedom, political freedom, taxes etc? Many thanks.

Offline HardwareHank

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Re: Wyoming Compared to South Dakota?
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2009, 07:00:13 AM »
Depends on what part of S. Dakota you're talking about. In Dakotaese, there are two South Dakotas.... East River (East of the Missouri) and West River (The other side)... dividing line right there at Chamberlain.

East River is more like Iowa. Farming country the further East you go and when you hit Sioux Falls... you might as well be in New Jersey. Fueled by credit-card companies who flocked-in to take advantage of the non-union (cheap) labor rates, from 2000 to 2006, the population grew by 15%, to 148,000. Catholic Relief and Lutheran Social Services have been bringing in "refugees" from Africa and there is a growing crime problem with that community. Lots of pheasant and deer hunting in East River... but most is on private land... so expect to pay a hefty "access fee".

West River is more down-home, but there too, in places like Rapid City, the influx of out-of-staters has dramatically changed the demographics. More public land than East River, so hunting and other outdoor activities are more abundant. (Thank God for public lands!)

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Offline Michigan Escapee

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Re: Wyoming Compared to South Dakota?
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2009, 01:40:20 PM »
Some of that rating may be due to the Sturgis influx every year. The fact that the state can tolerate the
worlds largest heap of bikers has to say something, good or bad I'm not sure. Personally I'm all for cheap
booze, trampy women, and shameless merchandising.

But with the extra people comes the problem of others deciding there needs to be more government
around to run their lives. If the population is more sparse it becomes harder to bribe the desk jockeys
to infest a region and dream up new social manipulation and money burning programs. Most likely due
to the simple problem of not having the money for essential services.

For the moment there's not much in South Dakata producing money except for credit card companies,
corn and cattle farmers, and a few mines. Over decades this could change again with the revival of
uranium mining, but that's going to be at least three decades before existing stocks get close to anything
resembling a shortage.

I wouldn't worry about the african imports, the sudanesse seem to be pretty mellow even if they get drunk
and boost a car now and then. The somali muslims you probably won't run into, but you never know. One
of those guys over here in washington went on a little rampage and racked up at least three felony charges
in under twenty minutes, and he only had something like a large kitchen knife.

Almost got stuck on that jury, that's one was a good reason why you never want to
fill out  a jury questionaire mailed to you. And proof that you don't need to be a strung out meth freak
to be a raving lunatic. ;P

Offline jubal

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Re: Wyoming Compared to South Dakota?
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2009, 08:40:21 PM »


   With so damned many laws on the books its fairly easy to get a felony rap today. Everything in Illinois and Minesota is against the law. You have to get a Permit to put a fire in your house out.
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When planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary".
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Offline Michigan Escapee

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Re: Wyoming Compared to South Dakota?
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2009, 11:49:23 PM »
I don't think you can get a permit to threaten your wife with stabbing, terrorize your children, and then
threaten your neighbors in front of witnesses that you will stab them if they snitch. But hey, I'm no
legal expert, go with your impulses. ;)

Offline ejalfree

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Re: Wyoming Compared to South Dakota?
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2009, 07:27:08 AM »
Folks, interesting discussion, but any chance we can get back to the original question?? Many thanks..

Offline manfromnevada

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Re: Wyoming Compared to South Dakota?
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2009, 04:30:49 PM »
It all has to do with the weighting given to each classification of "freedom".
How much for unimpeded home schooling?
How much for "allowing" midwives?
How much for not having an income tax?
How much for "shall issue" CCW?

You see? If you twiddle the numbers a bit then the rankings change drastically. You have to decide what is important to you.

Mac
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
<Edmund Burke>

Offline Paul Bonneau

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Re: Wyoming Compared to South Dakota?
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2009, 08:32:38 PM »
When I was running the unofficial "big spreadsheet" (everything but the kitchen sink) for the Free State Project, Wyoming always came out on top, if half-way reasonable weights were chosen. South Dakota almost always came out in second place. I recall they were good for economic freedom, not so good for personal freedom (if you want to make the distinction, which always struck me as a little artificial).

Please don't ask for this spreadsheet, unless you are willing to wait for a non-busy time for me to dig it out (say, next November).
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Offline MichaelNotMike

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Re: Wyoming Compared to South Dakota?
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2009, 07:40:32 AM »
When I was running the unofficial "big spreadsheet" (everything but the kitchen sink) for the Free State Project, Wyoming always came out on top, if half-way reasonable weights were chosen. South Dakota almost always came out in second place. I recall they were good for economic freedom, not so good for personal freedom (if you want to make the distinction, which always struck me as a little artificial).

Please don't ask for this spreadsheet, unless you are willing to wait for a non-busy time for me to dig it out (say, next November).

There is the 48-page William P. Ruger & Jason Sorens study, "Freedom in the 50 States":

http://www.mercatus.org/uploadedFiles/Mercatus/Publications/Freedom%20in%20the%2050%20States.pdf

Didn't you have something to do with that, Paul? Didn't it spin off of the "big board" Free State Project spreadsheet you're talking about?

Though Jason lists New Hampshire as number one overall, and Wyoming as 15. South Dakota as number 3. But as the study points out, it depends on which criteria are most important to you: if all you care about is guns and the right to marry your gay life partner, there's nowhere you'd want to be except Vermont!

California scores 47 out of 50 on that study.

Anti-war, pro-gun.

Offline MichaelNotMike

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Re: Wyoming Compared to South Dakota?
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2009, 07:45:02 AM »
I just realized the biggest irony of that whole thing...That study lists NY as 50 out of 50 (least-free state in the Union). And Jason lives in Buffalo, NY!

I dig that guy. And it seems to make no sense at all that he'd live there.

MWD

(p/s I'm from not far away from Buffalo, in New York State, and moved out of the state on my own at age 19.)
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Offline Paul Bonneau

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Re: Wyoming Compared to South Dakota?
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2009, 06:48:36 PM »
I tried Jason's original FSP spreadsheet, a very small one, but was unsatisfied because it said I preferred Delaware.  ::)

I expanded on it, adding factors as soon as I could find them. Other folks contributed too. It got very large, and started having problems with the factors that were not independent (a problem in any such spreadsheet). But it was better than Jason's original.

He upgraded his spreadsheet taking many items from mine, so it had enough to start making some sense.

Later he started this project which was an offshoot of all that earlier business. He was well-positioned to do a good job of it; it is a very esoteric sort of study. He invited me to participate but I declined as I was too busy. Also because I think spreadsheets like this have problems reflecting reality, as so many factors affecting freedom are not easily quantifiable. For example,I think Montana is actually near the top, although it does poorly in these spreadsheets.

Still, I think his study is worth something, especially if he keeps it going over a period of years as is his plan.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2009, 06:50:46 PM by Paul Bonneau »
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Offline Michigan Escapee

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Re: Wyoming Compared to South Dakota?
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2009, 07:44:46 PM »
Spreadsheets and statistics are fine if you understand they are a way to refine a wild
assed guess based on a limited pool of facts. Ultimately you have to simply get out
there and see for yourself what the area is like.

I got to cheat somewhat, growing up in Iowa you tend to meet a whole lot of people
from "flyover america". Truckers tend to cover a lot of ground as well as sales reps,
technicians, military people, etc. Unfortunately they also tend to hyperfocus on a
limited set of things.

East and West coast people often ended up in middle america for countless reasons,
and then the ones growing up there tend to run off the the big cities in the east
and west.

Oddly enough, the big city people don't seem to leave their own regions very much
compared to those who grew up in the middle of nowhere. Which tend to be comparing
a small fraction of a population to another small fraction.

Had a teacher in one school who told the class that most people in the US, something like 80% will
grow up, live and die less than 300 miles from where they were born. The kids tried to be polite and
not laugh too much because 300 miles is nothing out in the plains states. You usually had to drive
5-6 hours to get anywhere interesting. And if you joined the military, chances are you would blow
right past that limit just to get to basic training. 

But, some twenty years down the line and it was true enough. For Iowa the percentage was more
like 60, but still there were a whole lot of "townies" still pretty much in the same region. The ones who
left for work, college, whatever tended to socialize with the other people who left town. And even
outside of Iowa I tended to run into more travelers than townies socially.

Its kind of odd how that works, travel across the country and end up hanging around with people who
aren't even from the new place.  :P

So who knows, you can choose the scenery, and a better off region for what you want, but
I'm not really sure once you run off if you ever can really settle down and become a townie again.  ;D

Offline MichaelNotMike

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Re: Wyoming Compared to South Dakota?
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2009, 01:53:06 AM »
I tried Jason's original FSP spreadsheet, a very small one, but was unsatisfied because it said I preferred Delaware.  ::).....

lol!

One thing that really attracted me to FSW (and even to FSP) was the detail of the actuary math work that was already done.

DJ and I had been doing that on our own for over a year before we found y'all. (We'd boiled it down to a tie between Wyoming, Idaho, Vermont, Washington state, West Virginia, Kentucky and even rural Northern California. (This was before we bought our first gun!)

Our choices were mostly based on "price of enough land to be left the fark alone", and climate.

After we got the first gun (a shotgun), I got a copy of You and the Police, read it all in one night, then noticed mention of FSW in the back. I signed up for the forum that night and posted my first post.
http://www.fundamentalsoffreedom.com/fswforum/index.php?topic=6965.msg54951#msg54951

Then found the very detailed spreadsheet report work here, in Molon Labe, and on the original FSP board. All had so much more information than we'd been able to sift. Well, than I'd been able to sift. DJ does stuff like that for a living, and is very good at it, but wasn't "on board" as much as me yet, and also was too beat from doing it all day at work to do much of it at night.

It all made total sense, and now, six months and a week later, we're convinced Wyoming is the best place, and we're committed to living there before winter.

MWD

Anti-war, pro-gun.

Offline MichaelNotMike

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Re: Wyoming Compared to South Dakota?
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2009, 01:53:52 AM »
Spreadsheets and statistics are fine if you understand they are a way to refine a wild
assed guess based on a limited pool of facts. Ultimately you have to simply get out
there and see for yourself what the area is like. ....

We'll be in Wyoming Thursday!

MWD
Anti-war, pro-gun.

Offline wayneborngesser

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Re: Wyoming Compared to South Dakota?
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2009, 07:21:52 AM »
Welcome "Home" as Seniortech says, and I heartily agree with. It will feel like it pretty quick, if you're really a fit for this wonderful place.
“Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society”<br />Aristotle