When freedom advocates will no longer be welcome

[Paul Bonneau]

I was reading Norm's "get 'er done" post, pushing people to stop talking and thinking about moving to Wyoming and actually doing it:
http://www.fundamentalsoffreedom.com/fswforum/index.php?topic=4966.0
(I realize some unserious persons here won't have access to that board).

It occurred to me that much of the point of what we are doing is trying to get people established so freedom can continue at least in some respect here in Wyoming, as well as being a haven or a place to survive the coming "rainy decade". Well, there comes a point when showing up won't be a help any more. The folks who are already here have their support network of FSW'ers and even more local Wyomingites. The last thing we need is an influx of people who finally decided to get off the dime and move here after 1) they've lost their job, 2) a job ain't much anyway since there is no dollar left, 3) crackdowns and gun confiscations and riots are happening everywhere, etc (add your own list of trainwreck events). In other words, early movers make a positive contribution. Late movers are a drag on everyone, and might not be so welcome.

Obviously this is not a cut-and-dried thing. And it is a sensitive subject too. But it's something that might be well to add to your calculations, while you are dithering about whether to move.

If you intend to move, then move. If you intend to be the last man or woman getting in the lifeboat, then get lost! In that latter case you'd be better off making a go of it where you are (unless that's New Jersey...)

[rhodges]

That's an interesting point, Paul.  I guess the first question one should ask is, "Do I really WANT (intend) to live in Wyoming?  Or is it just a nice desire for when the stars are in alignment and it is CONVENIENT, or when things become so bad that I have no choice?"

It seems to me that the majority of libertarians like to talk about how things could be better, but will not DO anything.

Folks, the time is running out.  There is no possible way that I can keep up with all the news and information, but I do manage to absorb a great deal, and it is my belief that you have no more than two years, and probably a fair bit less.

In most places, I believe you will never, EVER get a better price for your house than today.  You will NEVER get a better price for that extra car, boat, snowmobile, and other consumer crap you hardly ever use.  Your 401K plan will probably drop like a rock, and today's taxes with the 10% penalty will probably seem like a tiny price looking back years from now.  Twenty years from now, your 401K will be worthless.  Keep what you really need, buy what you need and don't have, and sell the rest.

Go ahead and list your excuses.  The future does not care about your excuses.  What will happen, will happen whether you are ready or not.

The way I see it, you probably have at least a half year, and maybe as much as two years.  Good luck.

[NoKnownPurpose]

Hmm...

I live in central IL (near Peoria) currently - we saw housing prices increase by 10.5% in the past year.  The economy here is booming due to Caterpillar and the medical industry.  Oddly enough, Binghamton, NY where I grew up, and my mother still lives, was #1 for housing this past year (up 14.8 percent).  It's not all bad everywhere.

I personally can work from anywhere (although my largest client is asking me to spend a lot of time out in California, which I will be) but my wife's job (Sr. Engineer) is tied to this area.  Yes, she could likely get a job in WY but at a much lower salary from what I've seen.  Our jobs are also both pretty stable, my wife's especially since the weak dollar helps her company's sales and that company has never laid off an engineer (plus there are a large number of Sr. people nearing retirement age.)

I too am concerned about the state of the economy but what if you're wrong?  The cost of closing out our 401Ks and uprooting ourselves could very well mean the difference between a comfortable early retirement (age 50), living wherever we want and never needing to work again or saying "Welcome to Walmart" in our 80's.   (Not that there is anything wrong with that but it isn't in my plans.)  Our 401Ks are positioned such that they won't be destroyed if the dollar continues to weaken (healthy doses of unhedged foreign equities and short-term bonds) and will perform exceedingly well should we see an economic recovery.  If they do happen to be wiped out then things will have gotten so bad that money will be the least of my concerns.

As long as there have been calamities (financial and otherwise) afflicting humankind there have been people saying the "end is neigh".  To date they have been (mostly) wrong.  The world didn't stop working when the clock struck midnight on Jan 1, 2000 and it won't likely now.  I am not characterizing the current economic crisis with Y2K but the point is the same.  There are plenty of predictions on both sides, but nobody really knows what will happen.

Don't get me wrong, things are not all hunky dory and I am worried about many things, including the economy, threats to our freedoms and liberties and the future in general.  I am not however huddling up and living my life in fear.  I am preparing for bad times even as I hope we avoid them.  At the same time, I am keeping focussed on my career and investments.  Preparing for the worst is one thing, counting on it is entirely another.

If Wyoming will no longer welcome me when I am ready to move, so be it.  I don't consider myself enough of an elitist to live in that type of environment anyway.  In my life I've found that there are good people everywhere (many of them in the little town I live in here).  Wyoming certainly doesn't have an exclusive on them.  I'll simply stay put and live my life here.  It's less freaking cold here anyway. 

If I am right and things don't go completely to hell (I do think things will be hard for many people) in the next several years then the extra cash we'll have saved might let us buy a nice place to live at an even cheaper (in dollar terms) cost than today.

So those are my 'excuses'...  Everyone obviously should make up their own minds and follow their hearts but panic and rash decisions are almost never a good idea.  If the time is right for you to make the move, do so.  If not, don't.  There are always risks with whatever decisions you make.

[rhodges]

I too am concerned about the state of the economy but what if you're wrong?

Obviously you have to consider that seriously, and it seems that you have indeed been using your noggin.

Even if we see things differently today, perhaps new information as the future unfolds will eventually bring us together -- whichever direction that may be.

[bobcat]

+1 noknownpurpose.

We are working our plan and will be sticking to it.  If things go to heck in a hand basket before then, well, we'll just have to roll with the punches. 

NO ONE KNOWS what the future holds, NO ONE.

[Paul Bonneau]

I too am concerned about the state of the economy but what if you're wrong?

Certainly possible. You have to consider both sides of the equation though:

1) You pull up stakes and move to Wyoming, and it turns out I'm wrong.

2) You stay put, and it turns out I'm right.

Which of these is worse? In your case one of you can work the same job from here, the other takes a hit (maybe, although the energy sector is strong here). That does not sound so bad.

If I were in a big city I'd certainly get out. Otherwise I might have to think a bit. There will be good places to ride out a mega-Depression all over the place, not just in Wyoming.

...there have been people saying the "end is neigh".

Actually, horses would say that. People tend to say the "end is nigh". 

I guess I've made my point. It will be easier if you are here well BEFORE (and IF, of course) it falls apart, not after. You don't want to be just another number in a crowd of refugees, like the Okies in the Dust Bowl. As to probabilities, it's pretty certain the empire will fall. They all do. When is the big question; it takes a long time to run a good thing into the ground. But I take the "economic stimulus" checks as a strong sign that we are at the end. Lew Rockwell calls that "Zimbabwe economics".

[kylben]

there comes a point when showing up won't be a help any more ... (I realize some unserious persons here won't have access to that board).

Well, I guess I'm one of the people this is aimed at, so maybe I ought to explain myself.

I haven't signed the SOFI yet for one simple reason:  I can't yet do it in good faith.  It's a commitment I take seriously, and I cannot yet be sure I could live up to it.

There is a difference between wanting to do something and intending to do it.  Right now, I'm somewhere in between those two.  But the decision for me is not about convenience.  It comes down to whether, if I go there, I'll at minimum be able to pull my own weight, and preferably have the means to contribute. 

I wouldn't go there in hopes of Wyoming saving me. I've got lingering commitments that need to be met and disposed of, past mistakes to finish cleaning up from, and a financial "new start" to attend to.  Right now, those don't allow for the kind of rugged individualism in practical matters that Wyoming demands. There's no point in going there to be a wage slave, because being a wage slave where I am gets the job of no longer being a wage (and debt) slave done quicker.  I don't have the resources to devote to political freedom until I finish achieving my freedom in the non-political sense. An argument could be made that I don't have to be beholden to these commitments, that they are unfair or exploitive.  But, mistaken or not, exploitive or not, I took them on voluntarily.  I own them for better or worse. If I blew them off, I wouldn't have earned my freedom, and I wouldn't be much help to myself, to any movement, or to any free society. And until I'm at least that kind of free, I'm not free to sign the SOFI.

And it seems, Paul, that you're disregarding one aspect of the helpfulness of new arrivals.  Even if the political goals of the FSW are acheived, in part or full, there's still going to be a society to build, there will always be a society to build, because it's not something that is ever truly "finished".  Late arrivals may not help win freedom, but they can still contribute to what comes after. You're right, any late arrivals that only come out of desperation, because they have no other options, who have failed to prepare in any way, and who have little or no way to meaningfully contribute are not going to be any help.  I may not get there in time, but I'm determined not to go there as one of those.

[NoKnownPurpose]

Certainly possible. You have to consider both sides of the equation though:

1) You pull up stakes and move to Wyoming, and it turns out I'm wrong.

2) You stay put, and it turns out I'm right.

Which of these is worse? In your case one of you can work the same job from here, the other takes a hit (maybe, although the energy sector is strong here). That does not sound so bad.

If I were in a big city I'd certainly get out. Otherwise I might have to think a bit. There will be good places to ride out a mega-Depression all over the place, not just in Wyoming.

Honestly hard to say - we currently live on 16 acres in a small farm community, somewhat off the beaten path.  The basics of survival will be far easier here than in any major city to be sure.

My biggest concern would be our proximity to potential Chicago hordes (about 2 hours away).  People in the area are pretty sensible and conservative with a high rate of gun ownership and a strong sense of community (which we are just getting involved in after two years here).  I have a feeling this town, and others like it would come out OK.

Downside to moving is mainly cost (it was approx $35K to move from MI to here - paid for by my wife's employer - we'd probably be able to do it for somewhat less) and income restraints in WY.  My wife's employer is also expected to continue growing through at least 2010-2012.  By then several hundred more engineers will have retired and as I mentioned the company has never laid off an engineer even in past downturns.  They manufacture mining equipment so resource shortages are good for business.

So, should #2 come to pass we would shelter in place, I would certainly not join the ranks of refugees heading for warmer climates...to do so would be highly risky and as you have mentioned it would be unreasonable to expect to be welcomed with open arms.

...there have been people saying the "end is neigh".

Actually, horses would say that. People tend to say the "end is nigh". 

Ya got me there, and I have horses so I should know better...

Your points are well taken.  It would be neither practical nor wise to come to WY (though it would be a better choice than many) after the worst has occurred.  That said, my longer-term goal (assuming the empire doesn't fall in the mean time) is to move to WY to do my small part to help preserve a sanctuary for liberty and freedom both politically and more importantly, by example.  I sincerely hope that events don't conspire to prevent that.  For now I need to continue to fight that fight in IL.

[rhodges]

Honestly hard to say - we currently live on 16 acres in a small farm community, somewhat off the beaten path.  The basics of survival will be far easier here than in any major city to be sure.

Well that is definitely a plus.

My biggest concern would be our proximity to potential Chicago hordes (about 2 hours away).  People in the area are pretty sensible and conservative with a high rate of gun ownership and a strong sense of community (which we are just getting involved in after two years here).  I have a feeling this town, and others like it would come out OK.

Be sure to consider the possibility that FEMA will try to confiscate everything they think you have.  Some of your neighbors may be glad to tell FEMA about whatever fuel, food, guns, and ammo they know (or think) you have.  Know who you can trust.

Downside to moving is mainly cost (it was approx $35K to move from MI to here

That's a high price.  I bought a box truck and trailer for less than seven thousand, including repairs and maintenance.  I made four trips of about 1200 miles each way, and burned maybe a thousand gallons of diesel.  If I sold the truck and trailer, I could probably get a fair price back for them.  You must have a LOT of stuff...

Well, I wish you the best of luck in IL and be sure that there is still room here if you change your mind.

[Boston]

Thanks, Paul, for this thread, and thanks to the participants so far.

The "day late and a dollar short" crowd are ubiquitous in every state,
but perhaps the West will become known as intolerant of them.

Free market of association remains a powerful force.
I expect that the "lifeboat" types will gravitate towards the welfare states.

Boston

[NoKnownPurpose]

Be sure to consider the possibility that FEMA will try to confiscate everything they think you have.  Some of your neighbors may be glad to tell FEMA about whatever fuel, food, guns, and ammo they know (or think) you have.  Know who you can trust.

Yep that is a consideration.  Nobody knows what we have here and I don't advertise it.  The more important stuff will not be easily found.

That's a high price.  I bought a box truck and trailer for less than seven thousand, including repairs and maintenance.  I made four trips of about 1200 miles each way, and burned maybe a thousand gallons of diesel.  If I sold the truck and trailer, I could probably get a fair price back for them.  You must have a LOT of stuff...

You have no idea...   A big part of the expense was in lumber, hay and other stuff I would never have considered moving myself.  The moving guys were getting paid directly by my wife's employer so when they asked if we wanted the 300 bales of hay in the barn, big pile of spare lumber (mostly rough cut oak for stalls) and 140 or so steel T-Posts who was I to say no?    I also have a 40hp New Holland with loader and other implements that weighs in close to 10k lbs.  Horses were about $1200 for the three of them (easier to ship them than bring them in our bumper pull trailer). 

A big part of me misses the days when I could move everything I owned in two car (not truck) trips... 

I still do intend to come out there, in fact I will probably come out and look for suitable land sometime in the next few months.

[Paul Bonneau]

I haven't signed the SOFI yet for one simple reason:  I can't yet do it in good faith.  It's a commitment I take seriously...

Pardon me for overstating some of these points. Your motive is exactly the same motive I had for not being able to join FSP.

I understand your other reasons, but just remember, "Time and tide wait for no man."

Be sure to consider the possibility that FEMA will try to confiscate everything they think you have.

Well, that is a problem everywhere, not just places 2 hrs from Chicago. I don't think such measures as collectivizing farms is even off the table, when people start food riots. They will try it here just as much as anywhere else. Of course that would be a fighting offense... 

Sounds like you are set pretty well. Might not be a bad idea to partner up with someone already in Wyoming for a modest share of a country place, keeping your costs down for that but also giving you a backup location if 2 hours from Chicago turns out not to be enough.

[kylben]

Pardon me for overstating some of these points. Your motive is exactly the same motive I had for not being able to join FSP.

I understand your other reasons, but just remember, "Time and tide wait for no man."

I don't think you overstated it at all.  I just thought it was time I explained where I am at.  I certainly don't expect things to wait for me, I know I am in a race and there's no guarantee of winning it. I'm paying for past boneheaded financial decisions, but as a wise man once said, you have to start from where you are.

Even if the worst case happens, and I have to flee with the shirt on my back and whatever is in my pocket (assuming WY would still be someplace to flee to), I'd expect to live in a refrigerator box and start working my arse off, or at least use my last dollar ounce of silver to get a gun and a few rounds and head to the front lines. Not sure how good I'd be at the latter, but I'd have to do something to earn my keep.

But at least in that case, I could consider my debts null and void with a clear conscience.  Starting with nothing would be an improvement. I do really hope to get to Wyoming, but I plan to earn it.
 

[celeste]

well, I am in an interesting position. I live in Natrona county.  A socialist bastion on the rise if I've ever seen one.  My father and I have recently put our property up for sale with the intent of moving to weston county to join the free staters.  Unfortunately the free staters dont have a sign up position for those already in WY.  Anywho, for the purposes of getting majority thosde who emigrate after the fal migfht still be of some benefit. 

[Jared]

> Unfortunately the free staters dont have a sign up position for those already in WY.

We do, post in the SofI thread after 10 posts and you'll be "FSW Member, In Wyoming".