Author Topic: Under 30s?  (Read 36329 times)

Offline Richard

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Re: Under 30s?
« Reply #105 on: October 04, 2006, 05:53:51 PM »
I am not a big believer in the ladder theory. I think it is completely correct in a sense, but it's on an axis that's irrelevent and gives plenty of excuses but no solutions.  It also blames females for something that's not there fault and uses them as an excuse.

I am by no means an expert in this field, but I study it intensely as I am determined to get that part of my life under control.  I have found that to be successful in anything you must take responsibility for all your failures and successes. 

I may be wrong, but I look at it like this.  It's not the girl's fault if you get put on the friend ladder.  The girl doesn't make that choice, it's hardwired into her.  You make the choice which ladder your going to be on.

The basis for attraction is Survial and Replication value.  Men's attraction switches are turned on by 80% replication value and 20% survival value.  Women's for 80% survival value and 20% replication value.

The basis for Neg Theory is that women have a protection sheild to filter out the weak men.  Your Inner confidence and self-belief usually materializes itself on the outside by inceased success, more friends, more money, etc.(ie survival traits)

Basicly if you insult or bust on them in a  cocky and funny way,  this shows that you have inner confidence and are not afraid of them. By exuding this self-confidence, it shows that you must have lots of survival traits because that same self-confidence materializes on the outside in all other areas of life.   You may get tested many times and you can't give in.  It's a natural urge for women to try turn their husbands into nice guys once they get married or start a relationship, even if it means that they will no longer be as attracted to them.    It seems like a lot of this is done unconsciencely by both parties.  It's hardwired into our genetics.

After you bust through this natural sheild that protects them from weak men, then you can talk to them like normal.  It's hard to really explain because I am just learning all of it but basicly your 100 times more likely to attract a girl if you refuse to buy her a drink and tell her to buy you one, than if you offer to buy her a drink.

As I said earlier in the thread, I am no expert on this but I have some great resources to point to if any of you guys or girls are interested.  PM me for more info. 

I know I didn't summarize this as well as I  hoped to, but I would be interested on anyone else's thoughts on my comments.

Offline MamaLiberty

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Re: Under 30s?
« Reply #106 on: October 04, 2006, 06:22:54 PM »
OOOOh... I can't wait to read what Laurel says about this... tee hee...  >:D

Love the boxers, boys. Why aren't there any for us girls?  :P

BTW, unusual theory, RichardF. We did it a lot different when I was 20 something. Oh well, live and learn, I guess.

Lurking MamaLiberty
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Offline Richard

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Re: Under 30s?
« Reply #107 on: October 04, 2006, 06:53:38 PM »
Thanks for the feedback MamaLiberty.  I am also looking forward to what Laurel has to say about it.

I know I didn't explain it real well.  I forgot to differentiate that neg theory is different from whats known as a "sh*t test".  They are both very small factors in the big picture also, not as an alternative to the ladder theory. They don't really explain much.

 From what I've read "negging" doesn't always have to be used, only on girls with huge egos.  Both are usually completely unconscience.  A girl might think and say she wants a nice sweet guy, but that may not be what attracts her.   A "sh*t test" is given unconsciencely also, if you fail it, you sudden become unattractive and go on the friend ladder.  Such as if a girl asks you to do something.  If you kiss up to her and do everything she is less attracted to you.

 I could be wrong, but I've read both males and females can't choose what makes them attracted to other people on a physical level.  I believe it's hardwired into us.  What people think and say they are attracted to are not always the same as what they really are.   I may be completely wrong.  I am just going according to what I'm reading and learning right now which makes sense to me. 

Offline MamaLiberty

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Re: Under 30s?
« Reply #108 on: October 04, 2006, 07:33:01 PM »
I suspect this isn't something you're going to learn out of books. Just as the real market can't be "managed" and only the truly free interactions of people can comprise a healthy economy, so the interactions of human beings in every other area of life is endlessly varied and unpredictable. It can't be planned, and it can't really be anticipated with any accuracy.

The only way it works at all, far as I can see, is if we recognize the same dynamics at work in male/female relationships as are natural in every other human interaction. Each person owns themselves. Each person is responsible for themselves. Each person has their own baggage from their previous experience, and must work through or around that to get to where they want to be.

Dysfunction and disappointment are the result of failing to recognize this and attempts to manipulate others to our own needs and goals.

The only really stable and happy relationships I've ever seen or known were built on mutual respect and non-aggression, even in the smallest things. The partners must be willing to work together in voluntary cooperation for mutual goals, while remaining open to the fact that both goals and methods can change over time. They must also realize that they are responsible for their own happiness and well being. Nobody else can make YOU happy. :)

MamaLiberty - an old woman who has been there and done that... :)
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laurel

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Re: Under 30s?
« Reply #109 on: October 04, 2006, 08:49:53 PM »
Boys, boys... you underestimate me! First of all, I read the ladder theory YEARS ago. :) My analysis is this:

The selection criteria are not very accurate, at least not consciously. Where the LT suggests that women seek money/power primarily, MOST women I know really don't care about either, except for the extent to which they provide basic necessities. Having said this, I do believe that women value these things more subconsciously than we realize. It's part of the instinctual nesting drive - we want a big tough guy (power, manifested in different forms) who can provide for the welfare of our family (MONEY!). What the LT neglects, however, is that the evolved human brain DOES value other qualities - like sensitivity, intelligence, sense of humor, etc. because they ALSO pertain to the ability to provide for the family. While I'm not planning on having kids any time soon, I wouldn't date a guy if I didn't think he could be a good father - instilling values and ethics into our children. I wouldn't date a guy who was unkind, either, no matter how rich and powerful he is.

Now, selection criteria aside, I think the structural ladder part of the LT is, while perhaps a bit crude, dead-on. As Richard suggested, however, it's not necessarily a woman's "fault" or even an intentional thing if a guy ends up on one ladder or the other. I'll use a friend of mine as an example. I knew this guy all through high school and towards the end of those four years he wound up with a major crush on me. (Well, at least that's the point at which he articulated it.) So much so, in fact, that he sat me down and basically had a one-man intervention with regards to my high school sweetheart who he was CONVINCED was not good enough for me and not making me happy. Well, he was right, but I didn't want to hear it right then. A couple months later, after graduation, I'd broken up with said "sweetheart," and the friend wanted a chance to take me out. Even though I didn't really feel an attraction for him, and he certainly didn't have money or power, there were a lot of things I DID like about him (funny, quirky, lots in common) and I WANTED to be able to fall for him. I really, REALLY tried to have feelings for this guy. He was trying to jump ladders and I was doing my damndest to let him... But it just wasn't there. So, according to the LT, I "misrepresented" what ladder this guy was on. Maybe that's true, but I certainly didn't do it with malice. I was taking a chance and it just didn't pan out. It happens!

So yes, I think there are ladders. I don't think the majority of women get as much glee out of kicking men into the "abyss" as the site suggests. There are, however, exceptions to every rule, so I'm sure there ARE women who give at least 50% consideration to money/power and women who DO take great joy out of abyss-kicking. :) Now for the important stuff: what can you, Joe Singleguy, do about it?

1) Don't try to get chicks who give at least 50% consideration to money/power unless you're looking for one shallow broad.
2) Accept that there are ladders.
3) Accept that deep down, in your primordial heart of breeding hearts, you probably WOULD sleep with (or more seriously, procreate with) your female friends. You wouldn't be friends if that woman didn't have SOME quality you found attractive. It may be physical, it may be mental, it may be emotional. Bottom line, your answer to this question: "If she were the last woman on earth and you had to sleep with her to ensure the continuation of the human race, would you?" will almost invariably be yes.
4) Accept that her answer will NOT invariably be yes. I DO have guy friends who I think are great as friends, but never in a million years could imagine knocking boots with. Seriously. Like, good-bye human race, sorry I couldn't pick up the slack on this one, but... nope. Not gonna happen.
5) It never usually doesn't hurt to try to jump ladders (at least once), unless the girl is really psycho and will freak out that you even considered it. If that's the case, she might be a little too unstable for friendship anyway. :) Really though, it's happened to most of us females a time or fifty, and most of us are pretty good at letting you down gently (aka kicking you into the abyss) and shrugging it off, returning you to "friend status" and us to being totally cool with that. At that point, you can make some choices:
a. Change yourself in ways that might get you to the other ladder and try again later. It's pretty rare, but it happens. Mike was once FIRMLY planted on the friends ladder. He changed a lot, though, and I changed too, and the "jump" eventually worked out for him. Mind you, he'd tried before, and I wasn't having it. We stayed friends, though, because we were both capable of being mature about it. The big thing here is to never intentionally misrepresent yourself as something you're not, 'cause eventually that WILL come out via your true actions and it'll probably be ugly. If you REALLY change because YOU want to and you can maintain that as the "new you" instead of a temporary thing designed to get the girl, it'll be a lot better than the alternative.
b. Freak out and decide you can never speak to that girl ever again. Probably not the most mature course of action. Also a quick way to lose a good friend.
c. Give up and resign yourself to the friends ladder. Depending on the situation and depending on the girl, sometimes this IS the best thing to do, especially after repeated attempts at choice "a." Even girls who are pretty chill about attempted ladder-jumping have a breaking point, and continuing to try with a girl who has made it very clear that she doesn't like you LIKE THAT is also a slow, annoying way to lose a good friend. Sometimes you've just gotta let it go. There is no one-size-fits-all guide to when that moment is - use your head. If you start thinking you're acting creepy, stalkery, or downright annoyingly, you probably are.

Did that cover most of it? :)

Laurel


Offline Jared

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Re: Under 30s?
« Reply #110 on: October 05, 2006, 12:38:58 AM »
We did it a lot different when I was 20 something.
This is indeed true Mama.  Unfortunately things have changed and not for the better. :(

Richard's points about negging and shittests are spot on.  Like the song says, don't hate the player - hate the game. ;D
And in a nice libertarian twist, what enables 'the game' is big government: welfare, feminism, etc.
Women are hardwired, yes, and the safety net of government allows them to act in sub-optimal ways.

Did that cover most of it? :)

Laurel
Not too shabby. 8)

"Nothing good in life comes but at a price. Sweetest of all is liberty. This we have chosen and this we pay for."

laurel

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Re: Under 30s?
« Reply #111 on: October 05, 2006, 01:05:11 PM »
One more thing - Richard, while I agree with you on the conscious vs. subconscious intentions of women, I heartily disagree with you regarding your "buy me a drink theory."

Mike once pissed off his date by suggesting that very thing (and that was AFTER he'd bought her several) and a second date didn't even end up on the radar. I told him when I heard about it that I'd be pissed too - and if some random guy at a bar said that to me, I'd laugh at him!

*shrug* Maybe it works for you, but it certainly wouldn't work with me. I'm a pretty fiercely independed kinda gal, but I am also quite old-fashioned in many ways and am always way, way more attracted to a gentleman than a jerk. I'd save the joking and the razzing for when you already know her, because it's probably not going to be a very good pick-up strategy.

Basicly if you insult or bust on them in a  cocky and funny way,  this shows that you have inner confidence and are not afraid of them. By exuding this self-confidence, it shows that you must have lots of survival traits because that same self-confidence materializes on the outside in all other areas of life.

Or, she's going to wonder what the deal is with the cocky persona and never give you a second thought. Women are far more perceptive than men, face it. If you put up this "cocky" front to try to convince her you're confident, she'll know if you're faking it. Nine times out of ten cockiness is a sign of compensation for a LACK of confidence rather than true confidence. In my opinion, the way you show a woman you're "not afraid of her" is to walk up to her, introduce yourself, ask her name, buy her a drink, and talk to her like she's a human being rather than some prize to be won for the evening. BE GOOD AT BEING YOURSELF. That's confidence. You can joke with her later - show her you have some class, first.

Laurel

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Offline PatriotAR15

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Re: Under 30s?
« Reply #112 on: October 05, 2006, 07:06:35 PM »
I can say for a FACT that I have female friends who, I wouldnt want a "significant other" type relationship with. Even though she wants one with me. But thats because there are some traits that REALLY Bother me about her. So I dont think its true that, men cant be JUST FRIENDS with females. Too add to it, I actually used to "be with" this girl in question. We are both still good friends, and I dont feel any "wierd" about it. What makes me angry, is how its always "Attracted vs. Unnattracted" type issues that face me. Either I like them and they dont like me, or I Dont like them and they like me.

One other thing that angers me, is how girls have a way of ....almost trying to get you to like them...only so they can shoot you down. I've been flirted with, and been given INTENTIONAL false signals from women, and been totally shot down in the end. Alot of people say "shes just a heartless bi***" But Im wondering if maybe there is some hardwiring in women....
I think maybe deep down, women like too spread their influence amongst many men, in order to reassure them that there are more options in case the current situation breaks down. This of course doesnt necessarilly mean that your the next runner up.... Indeed you might be at the bottom of the list after 30 other men that she knows she can hook. So just because she does this, doesnt mean she's REALLY attracted to you... That and women are attention getters...from my experience...
Happiness is a cold gun, and a warm beer... Also could use a cure for dyslexia. - Jack

jleonard

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Re: Under 30s?
« Reply #113 on: October 05, 2006, 07:44:42 PM »
Wandered over here wondering what the "under 30's" were into. 

Won't stay long, but I have to ask...whatever happened to just wanting to get laid?

jkl (who came of age in the 60's...and enjoyed the 70's too...and the 80's...well you're never too old)

Offline Blaineus

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Re: Under 30s?
« Reply #114 on: October 05, 2006, 08:04:11 PM »
Hey I'm under 30 and I agree with you whole-heartedly.  I'm engaged to be married, so that whole phase is over... but when I was single, I didn't analyze things so much.  Just do what you what you can!   8)
I will walk with integrity of heart within my house; I will not set before my eyes anything that is base. I hate the work of those who fall away; it shall not cleave to me.  Perverseness of heart shall be far from me; I will know nothing of evil.
~Psalm 101

Offline manfromnevada

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Re: Under 30s?
« Reply #115 on: October 05, 2006, 08:31:39 PM »
I'm (way) over 30, but I'll throw in my $0.02:
I've had white friends, black friends, Mexican friends, Vietnamese friends, Italian friends,
but NEVER had a woman friend (meaning a female friend in a non-sexual sense).
I can't imagine it. It just seems weird. I can't picture calling up (female name) and going out to have a beer, or shoot pool, or shoot guns, or go to camping.
Maybe that says something about my upbringing or the way society says we interact with people? Dunno. Just never seemed to know any females that were at all interested in anything I wanted to do, so what kind of friend would that be?
Just thinking about that ladder theory.
Mac
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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Offline Jared

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Re: Under 30s?
« Reply #116 on: October 05, 2006, 09:06:07 PM »
One other thing that angers me, is how girls have a way of ....almost trying to get you to like them...only so they can shoot you down.

There's a saying - "Women want an endless supply of men to reject."

They don't actually want you, they just want to know that they are attractive to you.  By responding to the signals you've satisfied her ego and she can shoot you down.
Which is why negging and other aspects of player theory work ... by appearing disintersted in her, you spark her interest in you, because she's thinking "why doesn't this guy like me?"
And you get into the social proofing concept as well - girls want guys who other girls want ... both because of female competition and the fact that you have been vetted in a sense.  If other girls find you attractive, the girl will place you higher on the ladder because you will have status.  It's the whole "man I couldn't get girls to look twice at me before, but now that I have a girl it's like they all want me"....  When you show obvious interest, you show yourself to be of lower status than her, and therefore less desirable.
"Nothing good in life comes but at a price. Sweetest of all is liberty. This we have chosen and this we pay for."

laurel

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Re: Under 30s?
« Reply #117 on: October 05, 2006, 11:27:19 PM »
Bottom line with player theory, IMHO: if you play the game and the only kind of girl you're going to attract is the kind who LIKES TO PLAY GAMES!

Keep in mind that the way YOU act will attract certain types of women. Attract a girl who likes the game, and she may leave you for another player - eventually you won't be interesting to her anymore. Attract a girl who likes YOU, not the chase, and you'll have a better shot at having her for life.

So yeah, if you're just looking to get laid, by all means go for the former. I'm not even saying there's anything wrong with that! I think there are two kinds of guys here, or at least guys looking for two different things, and theories and advice are not one-size-fits all. There's a way to go about things if you want to land a girl for a night, and a way you go about things if you want to land her for good. Very rarely, IMHO, are they one and the same.

Laurel

Offline PatriotAR15

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Re: Under 30s?
« Reply #118 on: October 06, 2006, 12:36:30 AM »
Yeah, I for one arnt into "the game". I am lookin more for someone to "settle down with"...
Happiness is a cold gun, and a warm beer... Also could use a cure for dyslexia. - Jack

Offline auxter

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Re: Under 30s?
« Reply #119 on: October 06, 2006, 11:07:44 AM »
I agree with Laurel.  Play the game, you get game players.  Nice guys and girls, ready to settle down, don't look for spouse material at the bar where game playing on both sides abound.  You'll find them at functions where common interests bring you together.  Also, if you go at it with a "Ladder Therory" attitude, you yourself will be limiting good potential spouses.  Time to climb down off the ladder, dismantle your own, and take each person as an individual.  Your sucess rate might improve.