WY versus MT

[TreadNotUponMe]

Hey all,

Lately because of Montana's threatened secession and Ron Paul's performance in Montana, some have been talking about moving there.  Why is Wyoming better than Montana?

[MamaLiberty]

I don't know a lot about Montana, really. All I do know is that I'm already here in Wyoming and have a growing community of like minded neighbors and friends here. You might build such a community there in Montana, but you'd likely have to do it from scratch.

However, I wouldn't put too much weight on this idea of secession. Talk is cheap, but the MT state government is tied hand and foot to the feds like any other state. They don't have any fewer bureaucrats or political climbers than any other state government.

[Pumpkihn]

It seems to me that the people of Montana are more isolationist than Wyoming.  They aren't very welcoming of new people.  There is a large sentiment of all immigrants are bad immigrants.  Wyoming on the other hand has the free state movement with a fairly strong foothold in certain areas.  That's the biggest difference I see.  Otherwise, Montana isn't the worst choice you could make.  I'm strongly looking at Idaho as well.

[Jared]

Yeah anywhere in the whole "triad" area (WY,MT,ID) would be a fine choice.

I chose WY because of FSW, the low population, the low density, the terrain, the energy resources, and my perception of its ruggedness and western culture.

[Jack-O]

Go where the wind takes you I guess.  I landed in MT, But I think the FSW crew has a strong and active firearms community.

[KentuckyRifle]

It seems like there are a lot more jobs, and better paying at that, in Wyoming than in those other two states. Plus, the group of FSW and likeminded people present is a huge advantage. Idaho has better gun laws, and both Idaho and Montana seem to have more trees and definitely a better water situation.

Really, the water situation is a big strike against Wyoming though, especially if you plan to prepare for really rough times ahead, like many on this site do. Lack of water means it is harder to raise livestock or crops. Greenery is not just to look at, it is food for our food

Likewise, trees are not just aesthetically pleasing, they are a very important heat source (firewood). I flew out to Wyoming in May of this year to look around, and there doesnt seem to be much that you could burn over a cold winter between Cheyenne and Thermopolis. Even the Cody area didnt have that much tree cover. Speaking of cover, it is a lot easier to avoid being seen when there are trees to help provide cover in whatever scenario you envision.

Wyoming is certainly attractive with it's low population density and wide open spaces, but I sure would miss the trees, green grass, and fertile soil of my beloved Dixie. On my parents 70 acres I can count 4 creeks that flow year around and during many times of the year there is running water in every holler and cranny in the terrain. Our cost of living is lower than Wyomings and land is cheaper. If it werent for the high population that is fast increasing, leaving wouldn't be a very attractive option.

I have applied to a couple of Wyoming jobs this week, so we will see how it goes. We plan to move out to Wyoming within the next year or so if possible. In my mind Idaho is a much more attractive option as a final landing place, because there not seem to be much realistic chance of a true "Free State Wyoming" movement succeeding. If there were, that would trump every other consideration. To truly have a chance it WOULD need a public, visible, and charismatic leader. Molon Labe was a nice start, but without someone to carry the torch it is a movement that will never really get off the ground. How many have moved? Dozens? Maybe hundreds? Certainly not nearly the amount of people needed. New books on the subject (like Predator vs Prey that I read a week ago) help to fan the flames and keep interest and momentum, but unless there is a lot more of that happening then there will not be much of a movement. However, my wife and I are going to add ourselves to the number present and accounted for and give things a chance to work out. If it doesnt, Wyoming is a lot closer to Idaho/Montana than Tennessee and Kentucky are.

[NoKnownPurpose]

Some things to think about from a tax perspective.

Wyoming
 - no state income tax (on passive activities such as interest income either)
 - 4% state sales tax
 - property taxes are reasonable from what I hear - can anyone in WY confirm?
 - Had a $1.2B budget surplus in 2007 (about $2400 per capita)
 - About 500,000 population

Montana
 - 6.9% top rate (over $14,900 in earnings)
 - no state sales tax
 - property taxes are assessed on livestock, farm machinery, heavy equipment, automobiles, trucks and business equipment in addition to real estate.
 - Had a $1B budget surplus in 2007 (about $1000 per person)
 - About 1M population

[manfromnevada]

Kentucky Rifle,
Obviously you didn't visit the Black Hills area of Wyoming!
I'm guessing I have 10,000 trees on my 48 acres! And a year round creek flowing thru it.
Yes, water and trees are available here, you just have to look closer.
But you are right that there is not THAT much water, even here. What passes as a "river" like the Belle Fourche, would be labeled a "creek" in most states.

Here is one possibility:
http://westernpropertiesonline.com/Lytle-Creek-Road-a57401.html

Mac

[KentuckyRifle]

On my trip I flew into Denver and rented a car and drove up through Cheyenne to Casper the first night, then from there to Cody the next day (through Shoshoni, Thermopolis, Greybull). While in Cody, (had a job interview, I WAS offered the job), I also drove out to Powell and back. Left the next day and went to Sheridan, through the Big Horn National Forest and cut down through Casper and stayed that night in Cheyenne. 1300+ miles in just 3 1/2 days. The closest thing to looking like the pictures you linked to was the Big Horn National Forest. I wish I had time to visit NE Wyoming while I was out there. On my next trip I will definitely make sure to go that way.

The property that you linked to looks very nice, although it would surely be out of our price range, at least by the time you added living facilities to it. It seems the nicer properties in Wyoming are in places where the jobs are harder to come by. Making it a little more difficult right now is the fact that my wife's aunt is selling 22 acres adjoining my father-in-laws 48 acres for $15,000. My wife is the third on nine children and she has really become enamored with the idea of us buying this property. There are a lot of pretty good deals around me right now...

http://www.no1qualityrealty.com/RealEstateListingPages/eastofmillcrk295hannah.htm This is 20 minutes from where I live now.

This is approximately 135.69 acres with a two room cabin that is approximately 20x24. The cabin has electric installed by no septic system. This is a great hunters get-away cabin. There is approximately two acres of open level pasture land on the property and the balance is wooded and from steep to level and gently rolling ridge tops.

There is a nice creek flowing through a portion of the property that comes from the lake at Standing Stone State Park Lake which is just a very short distance from the property. This creek is ideal for swimming, stomping around, fishing or just sitting back and enjoying the awesome tranquility that it offers most of the time.

The property is bordered by Standing Stone State Park as well as Standing Stone State Forest. There are a couple of springs on the property. The property is mostly steep with some real nice areas on the ridge tops.

This is unrestricted property, all mineral rights and timber rights will transfer to buyer at closing.

Call today to schedule your viewing appointment and don't let this property get away. When you come to view this property be prepared to hike to find the true beauty in this property. Seller may approve for you to bring your ATV (must have pre-approval letter) to make your viewing easier. However, extreme caution is advised as motorized vehicles are not permitted in the State Forest or State Park property adjoining the property and seller and listing firm / agent are not responsible for any mishaps.

Priced to Sell at $169,900

This property is 5 minutes from where I live now... http://www.no1qualityrealty.com/RealEstateListingPages/scotthollowroad34acresbehr135735.htm

This property has a little bit of everything. The 34+/- acres includes three pasture fields, as well as some large timber. The year-round, spring-fed creek attracts all kinds of wildlife, and the clear, level fields would be great for horses or for your home site. You can walk the trails along the creek, or explore the woods and discover some cool rock formations. This quiet, peaceful tract is very private and secluded, yet only five minutes from town and close to Dale Hollow Lake. Make this gem your own for camping, hunting, or to build your new home.

Priced to Sale at $68,000

Ah well, nothing is perfect and I suppose the extra cost of living in WY would be worth it because of the lower population density, but it is much more achievable for an older couple of more substantial means. I know I'm just 23 and I should be patient But I am afraid that time is running out and I may not have the opportunity to sit back and patiently wait for my chance to move to WY and buy acreage acreage....

I know there are a lot of traps and problems associated with multiple parties going in to buy something like this, but it sure is tempting to try to find someone likeminded to split something like this with.

[maxxoccupancy]

In FSP-NH, we occasionally run into towns that make it extra difficult to subdivide your land.  Since freestaters keep their agreements, we've been able to manage various arrangements like "renting" a parcel of land to get around some of these rules.  Before the FSP was ever thought of, there were 99 year leases and such.  I've seen people get really crafty about land use to avoid some of those rules.  There are so many ways around those rules.  Some of the Grafton, NH folks just "rent a room" which is perfectly legal.  Once there, who's to say that you can't simply allow someone free range on part of your land.

[Fran]

Hey all,

Lately because of Montana's threatened secession and Ron Paul's performance in Montana, some have been talking about moving there.  Why is Wyoming better than Montana?

I live in WYO 6 miles from the MT border. One could argue that WYO is better than MT, but I don't think one could prove it. It is a matter of opinion. They have many similarities, and many differences. I looked for the right property in WYO for 4 years. I had almost given up and conceded to move to MT. I decided that for the same money, I could get a far nicer property in MT with great land, lots of trees (I had planned on building a log home), and great live water. Also the towns seemed to provide more amenities than the towns in WYO. In a word, it was much prettier. But then, just in the nick of time, a friend called me and offered me the perfect opportunity in WYO. I didn't hesitate. Looking back, my first choice was ALWAYS WYO - for all the reasons discussed in Molon Labe - and similar research I had done on my own. I also really like the rugged, independent spirit of the folks in WYO. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of rugged folks in MT also - but as a whole, I see it (willingly) moving more towards "civilized" society with fancy coffee shops, book shoppes, and less hunters and gun nuts. But, every time I drive up to Great Falls, I love it and can't honestly say that I wouldn't love living there as much or more than in WY. For me, the clincher is the FSW. I love the idea that while most states continue to move further away from freedom, that in WYO - which has very low growth - there is a steady flow of folks moving and planning to move there with the specific goal of working towards maintaining the remaining freedom. That may not mean much to you, but to me, that's enought to move WYO to the top of the list. Also, by living in WYO -  60 miles south of Billings,MT - I get to take advantage of zero sales tax, fancy coffee shops, good restaurants, decent airport, COSTCO, Home Depot, Lowes, and other amenities and still live in one of the least regulated counties in WYO or the whole US. Whose got it better than me??? Consider Big Horn County. Good luck with your decision.

[maxxoccupancy]

Wow.  I spent four years in NH doing a similar search, and finally ended up buying a house in Seabrook, right on the border with Mass.  In fact, my property actually straddles the border with Mass, and I have a compost pile where I toss much of my garbage just across that line.

Does anyone have any good estimates for the number of movers in MT? An estimate for WY?  Has there been an outreach effort to bring native folk into the same proliberty activism?

[laramierancher]

KentuckyRifle,

Back in '68, when we first moved to Wyoming, we had similar feelings, coming from heavily treed Michigan.  It didn't take long to see the advantages of being able to watch that thunderstorm develop 200 miles to the west, and watch it move eastwards for hours.  Cover is a two way street.  Your 338 Lapua should be able to reach out and touch someone long before their 308 is a threat to you

Anyway, we now love the wide open spaces and feel claustrophobic when we visit an area crowded with trees.

LR

[GMZ]

I myself recently made this choice. The plan was to retire, then move to MT, and as such the job situation was less of a factor. Now that Ive decided to separate from the Navy before retirement the job situation in WY tipped the scale to that side. Ive also heard that MT and ID are less "welcoming" of immigrants, conservative or not than WY. FSW and taxes added to the already stacked deck.

[Blakejoh]

I myself recently made this choice. The plan was to retire, then move to MT, and as such the job situation was less of a factor. Now that Ive decided to separate from the Navy before retirement the job situation in WY tipped the scale to that side. Ive also heard that MT and ID are less "welcoming" of immigrants, conservative or not than WY. FSW and taxes added to the already stacked deck.

FWIW, the way I've heard it (MT and ID) is like this.  If you move in and try to blend into the local culture, you're generally accepted.  On the other hand, if you bring the attitude of "This is the way we did things back in California..." then you're not likely to be accepted by the locals.  I would imagine the same would be true for WY.

My wife and I are of the first type, and have made a lot of friends here in ID.  (My MT information is second-hand, as I heard it from a local who previously lived in MT.)