Author Topic: Hello! Do I belong here?  (Read 30234 times)

Offline Tornos

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Hello! Do I belong here?
« on: August 29, 2009, 04:58:07 AM »
Hello fellow Freedom Lovers,

Before I get too deep into who I am, and all that, I want to find out if I even fit here.  I've read your FAQ, and the 'about us' section of your website, and several threads on this forum that caught my interest.  I haven't yet read 'Molon Labe', though I've ordered it... along with 'Hologram of Liberty'.  I have some concerns that I hope the kind posters here can help me with.  Please know that my questioning is not intended to incite, and is honest.

It's important that I reveal one thing about myself, by way of disclosure.  I work as a Deputy Sheriff.  This is the fountain from which some of my concerns flow, but not all of them.  I'm not ashamed to work in law enforcement, but neither does it make me feel powerful or superior.  I got into my profession because I believe in the fair enforcement of just laws... those that are founded in Natural Law... the sort that say 'your freedom to swing your fist stops where my nose begins'.  I am an Oathkeepers kind of peace officer.  I do, however, believe that there is a place for laws in society... just laws as I defined them above, set up by the people, and bound by constitutional restraints.  So, without further ado...

Questions:  Does FSW completely oppose all government?  I ask because of statements I've seen on these forums decrying laws in general, and putting down 'cops'.  Is there any place in your vision of Wyoming for local, community based government?  State government?  I wont ask about Federal government, because I think we're together on how out of control that's become.  Is the goal to live completely without restraint on any level other than personal?

I truly appreciate your honest answers.

-Shawn

Offline MamaLiberty

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2009, 06:48:20 AM »
Welcome, Shawn. Only you can determine that for yourself, but give it some time. Each of us can only speak for him/herself. You'll hear from others, I'm sure.

Every society needs those who are willing and able to be peacekeepers. The 'peace officer' of today comes closest to that professionally, but the bottom line is that each of us who are able must be willing to do that for ourselves. For example, I carry a gun every day, everywhere I go. I don't even dream that I could handle each and every potential danger on my own, but as a trained and armed person I have a MUCH better chance of doing so than someone  walking around unarmed and oblivious to their surroundings who is trusting the "cops" to protect them.

If you are able to accept that each person owns their own life and body, and is fully responsible for that life, choices and actions... then you will probably fit in here well, regardless of your current job.

Most of us have had very bad experiences with "law enforcement" and many are not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I think most of us will give that chance to a "peace officer." Let's talk about it. :)
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Offline Blaineus

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2009, 07:12:13 AM »
Hey, they seem to accept me, and I'm a federal naval officer.  I even admittedly fly black helicopters!   >:D

Honestly, there is a spectrum here.  Generally I'd say most lean towards the anarchist, no government side of that.  However, when you get out the microscope and look closer, there are pure anachro-capitalists, minarchists, and even a few that touch more on the traditional "republican-conservative" side.  There are atheists, agnostics, and devout practitioners of a few religions (though mostly Christian-based).  The common thread that seems to bind us all is a love for all things shooting related, a general feeling that there's something amiss in the world right now, and a strong belief that government has grown too unwieldy to handle it and was the biggest cause of the problem anyhow.

I think if you take some of the folks here who bash cops in stride, and you truly believe you're a peace officer, you'll fit in just fine.  Take a few people with a grain of salt.  We can't all agree all of the time.  That would be the other side of the spectrum, communism.
I will walk with integrity of heart within my house; I will not set before my eyes anything that is base. I hate the work of those who fall away; it shall not cleave to me.  Perverseness of heart shall be far from me; I will know nothing of evil.
~Psalm 101

Offline Shawn

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2009, 07:41:21 AM »
Yes, there's room for a wide spectrum here, I for one might fit into the conservative republic category. (NOT Republican). I've said I would settle on the federal side just for strict adhereance to the Constitution.  (Not that much to ask for)
Our heritage in a nutshell: "This country was founded by religious nuts with guns"  P. J. O'Rourke...Isn't it time?

Offline judithevans

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2009, 08:25:22 AM »
Welcome!! i for one would like to hear a LEO imput on some of our issues.  Some behind the scenes opinions.  We all like to spout off, but its obvious that our opinions are not always reality based. it is our 'druthers'.  i am focused on survival, and that is all about reality.  i also have my preferences but they arn't always connected to reality.  and reality is what is hitting us all in the face right now.  i am very concerned about networking to be prepared to get through the hard times here and coming.  and i don't like playing with guns so much as feel it is necessary to survival.  i live in Fremont Co and out in the country.  the 15 min plus time of response of the LEO is what i have to survive.   And when it gets bad, there won't be near enough LEO's to go around.  i have a relative who is a LEO and have treasured the advice he can give me.  Dove

Offline jubal

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2009, 08:52:49 AM »


   I personally do not like the term LEO (Law Enforcement Officer), to much authoritarianism to it. The term (Peace Officer) to me was what they were yrs. ago. LEO has a grate to it for me, but thats a personal take. I see no problem here for you if you can take what is said and roll it around in your head with reason and thoughtfulness to come to terms with it. You will find that most here do not hold back in there opinions but this is the kind of place this is. On the other side of it you may say your piece just as anyone else does. Our government (Fed) is completely out of the fence of the constitution and should be herded back inside that boundary. Some of our local gov. (Chicago) for example is corrupt to the core and gov.  as an overall example from great to the worst on the meter. Discussions here cover it all and in a direct and to the point manner. You will also find the deportment the best you will find on any forum of its members. Look us over, make up your own mind. Nothing is held back here.

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Offline wyomiles

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2009, 09:12:33 AM »
You are welcome here as far as I am concerned. If you are more of a peace officer than a LEO .
There are many laws on the books, so many that we all become criminals.
Others have already said it better than I, just be willing to debate with an open mind and you will be fine.
I believe we have had a lot of other discussions on this topic so dig around in the threads to get a better feel.

By the way if you are an Oath Keeper you are a giant leap above most in your field.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 09:29:21 AM by wyomiles »
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Offline Big Ugly

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2009, 09:24:14 AM »
Good Morning, Shawn,

Only speaking for myself ... but, I don't think anyone here truly believes in "no government what-so-ever". After all, when you have two people trying to co-exist you have a form of government, by agreement. Even in a household - who does what, when, where, and how, is a form of government.
If you are refering to the Deer Creek / beat up on the tractor driver, JBT type of law enforcement officer - then, yes we (many of us) have put down "cops". I don't think too many us would not like 'cops' just because they are cops. If they abide by their oath and engage in LAWFUL activities, as opposed to "legal" yet "unlawful, o.k. Many 'laws' are not lawful and should not be enforced. Unfortunately, there are those in uniform simply to force their will on everyone else under "colour of law".

A small word of advice. Don't make the same mistake as others have recently done. Don't be 'secretive', and, at the same time, pump everyone for 'personal' information. Give a little in order to receive. Be open and above-board when dealing with the people here. When you get on a 'personal' and/or 'friendly' basis, then deal with information of a 'personal' and/or 'friendly' nature.

We have many different people here, with many different outlooks and beliefs. Have a certain amount of respect for others and they will respect you as well. Agree to disagree, so to speak, but don't try to hammer anyone with your beliefs. If it's good, and it works, you'll eventually make your point.

Good books, both, and there are many more out there to read as well.

I live just down the street from a deputy, and count a few LEO's as 'friends'. All I ask, personally, is that you live by the oath you took, and administer the 'lawful' laws in as fair and just manner as possible. There are many things that should not be done in some situations, but that do not need a "law" saying the these things CANNOT be done. Perhaps, a warning as regards the possible consequences of continuing a certain behavior ... Why would one need a ticket for driving too fast on an open road with no traffic, etc., - if you drive too fast, trash your own car (or motorcycle) and bust yourself up ... whose business is it but your own, just fix the damage to the road and clean up the mess. When I was 16, I lost control of my car, doing something stupid, ('51 Plymouth - I loved that car!) and took out 6' of Ontario, CA, city curbing. I got to pay for the curb replacement and my car sat down at Uncle Carl's for about 9 months, until I had the money to get it fixed and driveable. Yes, the cops talked to me, so did my dad, so did my granddad (that hurt worse than anything else). Did I learn my lesson - Yes! Did I ever do another 'stupid thing' that cost me? Of Course! But I learned to accept the responsibility for my actions - if everyone accepted the responsibility for their actions, I don't think we'd have a need for "Law Enforcement" and you guys could go back to being "Peace Officers".
Sorry about the Rant!

From what you've written here, It seems as if you are on the right, proper, correct, what-ever, side of things - and welcome! Come on in, kick off the boots, relax, enjoy yourself. By and large, most here just want to be left in peace and try to do the same for others.

Ask questions, read the past postings, be honest and forth-right, and everybody should have a real good time.


Clean them,<br />Load them,<br />Keep them near at hand.<br />Remember Capt. Parker.<br /><br />\\\"Les hommes sages n\\\'ont pas besoin conseil. Idiots ne le prendront pas.\\\"

Offline elk

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2009, 11:12:11 AM »
Quote
Only speaking for myself ... but, I don't think anyone here truly believes in "no government what-so-ever". After all, when you have two people trying to co-exist you have a form of government, by agreement

Actually Big Ugly, that's often called "society"
 or a "natural social construct."  I.e. humans are naturally social creatures and try to get along with others of their kind.  Spontaneous order arises, but natural constructs like "society" do not require imposition on others through force.  Animals with claws respect each other, hell, even the skunks out here don't shoot first.  They stop, appraise me, i'm armed walking my dog, i stop appraise him, then from 5 feet away we each nod away and keep going.  There's no cop to tell me not to pick him off with my .22 and no skunk cop to arrest him if he sprays me.  We're each armed, and conserving of our ammo.

Government is, by its nature, an artificial  construct, imposed by the governing upon the governed.  All pretenses to the contrary have had very bloody results (as they will again and  again wherever tried.)

Waste is a natural government feature.  Think of Buffalo Bill.  I recall him and others being hired to destroy the native food supply.  Today the army corps are funding genetic sequencing projects all along the york river.  Why?  Well certainly not to increase the food supply.  After 20 years of such work, they would've figured something out.  It only took Tesla half that to come up with the electrical grid, generation devices and overhaul the multi phase motor.  But he was a private scientist, while these are government scientists.


So back to our subject.  As far as I'm concerned, Shawn, you're fleeing the sinking ship before you end up getting picked off by vengeful types.  HOWEVER!  Once in Wyoming, if you turn over a new leaf, get a productive job, and don't get authoritarian with me or those I know who don't demand your "shepherding them"... I'll gladly drink a beer with you, or shoot some prairie dogs together.

The state is every man's enemy, even its servants.  You, however, are not, at least not until you pull me over or put your hand on your gun while interacting with me in uniform.  Many a cop has done that walking up to my vehicle, and I had to resist the instinct to shoot a man so wantonly threatening me with lethal violence before we'd even made eye contact.  Each cop who pulled me over, in that swaggering bullying, threatening manner, announced he was my enemy before we ever met.  Don't behave like that, and, if you're able, stop accepting stolen loot as paycheck... and I'll have no beef with you from the perspective of "you were a cop."  Even if you can't stop accepting tax money (aka, tribute, or plundered wealth/stolen loot) having an insider as a friend can't hurt... but I wonder, when we meet, if you're in uniform, will you act like the servant, or the master?  Will you act like the thankful dog that eats the bread taken from me to feed you, or will you bite the hand that feeds you?  That alone will tell how our potential friendship would progress (i.e. if at all.)   I won't judge you as a "piece of crap cop/LEO" UNTIL you behave like one.  After that, all the leaves in the world turning over won't redeem you in my eyes.

However, based on the uniform, I'll have to assume the worst, just as if Blaineus landed his "black chopper" on my lawn, I'd greet him over my sights (while grabbing one more girlscout cookie, to paraphrase a recent thread here), and if he then tells me who he is, and says he's "finally making proper use of company resources" to come toss down a brewski with me, the sights go back over my shoulder, I greet him, and grab two cold ones from the fridge, and maybe some of those deeelicious but dubiously composed girlscout cookies...
Trading privacy for security is stupid enough; not getting any actual security in the bargain is even stupider.  ~ Bruce Schneier of Cryptogram fame (www.schneier.com)

Remember always that the only thing they required of us was our moral sanction. You lost when you accepted their moral code.

Offline Blaineus

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2009, 11:17:52 AM »
However, based on the uniform, I'll have to assume the worst, just as if Blaineus landed his "black chopper" on my lawn, I'd greet him over my sights (while grabbing one more girlscout cookie, to paraphrase a recent thread here), and if he then tells me who he is, and says he's "finally making proper use of company resources" to come toss down a brewski with me, the sights go back over my shoulder, I greet him, and grab two cold ones from the fridge, and maybe some of those deeelicious but dubiously composed girlscout cookies...
You'd have to have a REALLY big lawn Elk... so, I don't think you have any worries.  Plus you can hear the Big Iron from about three miles away at least, so I imagine I wouldn't get that close.  Love to share a beer though!   :P
I will walk with integrity of heart within my house; I will not set before my eyes anything that is base. I hate the work of those who fall away; it shall not cleave to me.  Perverseness of heart shall be far from me; I will know nothing of evil.
~Psalm 101

Offline elk

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2009, 11:55:46 AM »
Quote
Questions:  Does FSW completely oppose all government?  I ask because of statements I've seen on these forums decrying laws in general, and putting down 'cops'.  Is there any place in your vision of Wyoming for local, community based government?  State government?  I wont ask about Federal government, because I think we're together on how out of control that's become.  Is the goal to live completely without restraint on any level other than personal?

My views are my own... the FSW is not a "collectivist" group, and thus, while we are "we" insofar as our conversations go, and potential interpersonal interactions, there is no "we" as far as, one speaking for all.  As far as I understand, the FSW is private space, the forum belongs to Joseph, and the FSW trademark belongs to Boston.  All comments belong to the posters who post them.

That being said, while amongst the FSW I abide (as much as necessary for civilized discourse and association with others here) by its rules.  If, someday, Boston or Joseph really get upset with me being fairly outspoken, I'll have to respect their views and walk away (or get banned)... but by the same token, if they're ever on my property I expect the same civilized behavior from them.  And indeed, your right to enforce laws, regardless of their "constitutionality" ends at my and others' noses.  I have no need of your laws, I am, in fact, MORE civilized when I'm not worried that someone's trying to entrap me into breaking a law, be it constitutional or not.  So as far as I'm concerned, that's my view on "law" and man.  There's natural laws, and there's government laws.  Nature's laws ensure man keeps living as man.  Government's laws ensure man is reduced to a worthless beast of burden, carrying the load of the parasites AND the taboos and idiocies pushed forward onto men's backs by government and its willing aides.

That's the way I see it.  If others see it differently, by all means, they're welcome to their views.  But if they seek to enforce them upon me... I'm fast approaching that time when I'll be utterly sick of living under threat of robbery under color of law.  Thankfully, I've still got things I'm unwilling to lose.  But the government is daily finding ways to strip me of them.  When it finally robs me of that final thing, whichever that may be... well, hopefully you won't be the one sent to take it, because that will be the day I stop being civilized.


---------------------


Blaineus, hahaha, I got a garden, mate.  You land on that, I might not be too forgiving, and you'll damn well be paying for the watermelons! :)  That aside, the parking side of the house isn't half bad, just be careful of the power lines and internet feed... same as the garden, I paid for that, and it was money earned honestly, hauling stuff people paid for.  (had them moved away from the trees during the last hurricane, apparently the neighbors branches kept breaking my lines, and they were not willing to cut down the trees.  See, you just reminded me of yet ANOTHER civilized solution that was resolved by me, the cable company and my neighbors.  Amazing how this civilization thing works when not interfered with... and despite me packing a pistol, nobody got shot.  Crap, there goes another of Sarah Brady's little idealisms.

But yeah, the brewski is game...  If I see you in the near future, before the idiots declare beer against their national health care "imperatives"... we can still "legally" enjoy it... and poor Shawn won't have to jump through hoops to drop by and "not find" anything.  Hah!
Trading privacy for security is stupid enough; not getting any actual security in the bargain is even stupider.  ~ Bruce Schneier of Cryptogram fame (www.schneier.com)

Remember always that the only thing they required of us was our moral sanction. You lost when you accepted their moral code.

Offline KentuckyRifle

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2009, 12:25:42 PM »



So back to our subject.  As far as I'm concerned, Shawn, you're fleeing the sinking ship before you end up getting picked off by vengeful types.  HOWEVER!  Once in Wyoming, if you turn over a new leaf, get a productive job, and don't get authoritarian with me or those I know who don't demand your "shepherding them"... I'll gladly drink a beer with you, or shoot some prairie dogs together.

.... Don't behave like that, and, if you're able, stop accepting stolen loot as paycheck... and I'll have no beef with you from the perspective of "you were a cop."  Even if you can't stop accepting tax money (aka, tribute, or plundered wealth/stolen loot) having an insider as a friend can't hurt... but I wonder, when we meet, if you're in uniform, will you act like the servant, or the master?  Will you act like the thankful dog that eats the bread taken from me to feed you, or will you bite the hand that feeds you?  That alone will tell how our potential friendship would progress (i.e. if at all.)   I won't judge you as a "piece of crap cop/LEO" UNTIL you behave like one.  After that, all the leaves in the world turning over won't redeem you in my eyes.

However, based on the uniform, I'll have to assume the worst, just as if Blaineus landed his "black chopper" on my lawn, I'd greet him over my sights (while grabbing one more girlscout cookie, to paraphrase a recent thread here), and if he then tells me who he is, and says he's "finally making proper use of company resources" to come toss down a brewski with me, the sights go back over my shoulder, I greet him, and grab two cold ones from the fridge, and maybe some of those deeelicious but dubiously composed girlscout cookies...

Do you "allow" the loot to be stolen from you? Until you quit feeding, supporting, and upholding the machine with your taxes, all your brave words are nothing but hot air. You like to gripe a lot about government waste, and you LOVE to brag about how you will shoot others for much lesser infringements, or come close to shooting them for touching a gun on a traffic stop, but then do you meekly submit to the government taking more money from you then you will spend on food, clothing, and shelter this year? I wont say you are bluffing, I will say you are either a liar or you don't know yourself very well at all. If blaineus landed in your yard tomorrow and flattened your entire garden, I doubt very much you would do anything other than complain on here about it.

It is very easy to gripe and make long-winded speeches on an internet message board, it is another to actually do anything productive toward the cause of liberty. It is time a lot of us libertarian folks got our head out of the clouds and quit complaining that we dont have utopia, and do something realistic about making things better.

For my part Toros, I say good work and keep at it. The position that you are in is going to be filled by SOMEONE, as long as people like elk and I are still paying the taxes to support the position. Much better to have a Peace Officer in that position who understands Natural Law and will respect others liberties, than to have someone in there just because they want some authority. Spend your time chasing the thieves, murderers, rapists, and those who commit actual crimes against others. If more GOOD people did it, we would have a great deal of improvement very quickly. Quite frankly, it doesn't matter what laws the goons in Washington pass if the "enforcement" arm refuses to follow them.

Better yet, let them pay for your training and your inside intelligence to help the cause.
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Offline manfromnevada

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2009, 03:07:22 PM »
I, for one, have never had a bad experience with law enforcement. Quite the contrary. Both in NV and here in WY the local deputies seem like pretty good folks. We had two nice guys visit us during our summer get together and was refreshing to see the attitude of the both of them.

I try to judge each person individually. I don't always succeed, but I can hopefully look beyond whether they wear a badge, the color of their skin, or their religion (as long as they don't try to force their views on me).

Welcome.

Mac
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
<Edmund Burke>

Offline sbeckman

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2009, 07:17:54 PM »
Quote
We had two nice guys visit us during our summer get together and was refreshing to see the attitude of the both of them.

Yeah, how often do the local Sheriffs stop by to talk guns and hand out free ammo!  8)

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Offline Tornos

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2009, 08:53:05 PM »
Thank you for all of your replies!  I feel somewhat reassured, after reading them all.  It’s obvious that there is indeed a wide spectrum of opinion here… but the majority of that opinion seems less anarchist than I had feared.  I think I’ll fit in well enough.

MamaLiberty / KentuckyRifle / wyomiles:  I’m glad we agree that peacekeepers are necessary.  That is a large part of what I believe a peace officer should be.  Those who can defend themselves, have every right to do so.  Unfortunately, those who are helpless for whatever reason, make easy and frequent victims for true criminals.  The problem most people have with ‘cops’ comes from either the wrong people doing the job, or the spiderweb state of our legal codes.  You’re right that there are too many damned laws.  Busybody legislators are to blame for that… but so are we all, because we elected them.  The solutions are to make sure good folk are working in local law enforcement (can’t do much about the feds), and organize to vote in good representatives.

Elk : Thanks for taking the time to reply to me.  It seems you’ve had some very bad experiences with law enforcement.  I hope they were more misunderstanding than real injury.  There are some working as law enforcement officers who don’t understand their role, or are bullies by nature.  It’s unfortunate that they are the ones many people remember so vividly.  On the other hand, I can assure you that I will never approach another man and act like a ‘thankful dog’… whether in uniform or not.  Expecting that kind of thing could set the foundation for a negative encounter with anyone.  We could get into a discussion about the evil of taxation and government that would go on for pages… let’s just say that I agree the government in general is a bloated parasite… but I think that law enforcement and national defense are necessary duties of it… though even those two duties are overfunded and abused by our lawmakers.

Big Ugly:  You're right.  And I will better introduce myself in another reply.  This one is getting too long for my browser.

And to everyone else, thanks very much for the welcomes.  I hope we’ll have many productive discussions in the future.  Maybe I’ll even have the chance to join those of you on the frontiers of freedom.  Handing out free ammo?!?  I can't even get any for myself around here.