Author Topic: Hello! Do I belong here?  (Read 30515 times)

Offline Paul Bonneau

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2009, 12:49:57 AM »
Well, this turned into another political philosophy thread.  :P  I'll just add a bit, can't help myself...

Quote
Does FSW completely oppose all government?

No. I oppose all government. As do some others, obviously.

I know there are good cops and bad cops. Bad cops are bad for obvious reasons. But good cops are also bad, for the same reason that good government school teachers are bad: because they are the ones propping up the system. If it weren't for them, people would much more quickly tire of government and do the right thing (that being defend themselves, and school their own children).

I also know only a small minority think the way I do. I would be happiest if government ceased to exist, but would be satisfied if government simply left me alone. I know most others are not ready for "no government" yet. That's why I think it should break down by communities, some of them with some different forms of government, others with no government, just voluntary associations. See which ends up working best.

It's also a matter of, well, consensus might be too strong a word, but most here think that counties like Crook and Weston need a pro-freedom sheriff. Even if that implies government (details to be worked out later). So on that score your presence is particularly welcome.

Don't mind the anarchists. You will find them as easy to get along with as can be. Particularly when you are out of uniform.  ;)
Laws turn men into slaves.

Offline Tornos

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2009, 04:42:49 AM »
Thanks Paul... sort of. ;)  You were one of the folks I was worried might want to rip my head off.  I saw "Laws turn men into sheep" and had to disagree.  I'd say "Unjust laws turn men into sheep", because decent folk aren't touched in the least by those laws firmly grounded in the Natural Law.  But we'll just disagree a little, and that's cool.  I'd be most happy in a nation founded on a Constitution along the lines of the CSA's (minus the sections sanctioning slavery, of course)... and you might chafe in a nation founded on the Articles of Confederation.  But we'd both be much happier with either option than with what we're getting now.

Introduction:

Hi!  My name is Shawn, and I live in California (Kalifornia? sure, fine).  I was born here, as was my wife.  For the longest time, we didn't know anything different.  There was a time when Reagan was our Governor, after all.  The state's been on a steep downhill grade for a long time.  I was born in the Los Angeles area, and have steadily moved away from that Sodom... but obviously haven't escaped far enough yet. 

As you know, I'm a Deputy Sheriff.  I'm fortunate enough to work for a Department that's still pretty old fashioned.  I have no pressure on me to write tickets... and I write very few indeed.  I enjoy taking thieves and liars to jail... especially liars.  Once in a while I see something that truly disgusts me, or disturbs me.  Gang members, for instance.  Once in a while I get to help someone who truly needed me.  There are ups and downs like anything else.

I have two daughters, ages 6 and 5.  They're in a form of public school called a parent choice school.  I tell myself that it's better than most public school situations, and it is.  I tell myself that I can educate them at home to fight their indoctrination, and I do.  But deep down, I know it's not good enough. 

My wife, Alina, and I have been together for 17 years.  She wants to move out of California too, but can't understand what I'd see in Wyoming.  It'll grow on her... I'm thinking a vacation next summer will be a huge step toward that.  For the time being, I'll post here and there, and try to become one of the community.  I hope to make a lot of like minded (some more, some less) friends.

Talk to you soon!

Offline Danl

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2009, 05:34:41 AM »
Tornos,

I think you may have found a home... and welcome. :)

I, much like Paul, would be very happy to suffer from benign neglect from the government.  I like the concept of natural law, but then do we need enforcers or instead do we need just judges, much as the Old Testament.  A complaint was made, for instance, the case was tried, and if the party was found guilty, the injured party cast the first stone, so to speak.

I would be interested in your comments on, "What is natural law?"  You can click through to a thread that might be considered more on topic for this response.  I have posed this question there.  Liberty without Morality will bring Neither

Once again welcome!

Regards, Danl ~W~
« Last Edit: August 30, 2009, 05:11:44 PM by Danl »
Alea iacta est, Molon Labe!
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Offline innov8r

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2009, 05:46:03 AM »
fwiw, i'm in the no gov't group as well. society yes absolutely - division of labor is great!

i have no use for law enforcement. it is part of a continuing stratifcation of this country. the politicians are practically untouchable and can get away with anything. cops can lie and kill also with practical impunity. one mans word in a 'court' of law is better than anothers if he wears a badge...puhlease..that's ridiculous

i like the 'idea' of a peace officer, but how does the man leave all his baggage at home and bring no bias to the job? law enforcement.....most don't have any idea of what constitutes a common law crime. if the critters in the state house or congress passed a law stating 'receding hairlines are a crime', most cops would arrest hair challenged folks and say 'i'm just doing my job'.

so, do you know what a 'crime' is?

Offline Big Ugly

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2009, 09:27:59 AM »
Hi, Shawn,
I, too, was born in Southern California, still have brothers there.
I grew up there in the 50's and 60's, when there were still some freedoms inherent.
I left in the early 70's, went back to visit in the mid-80's - vowed never to return!
It was quite a shock moving from an area where, if you drove more than 5 or 10 miles to get to a store, you were just wasting gas, to an area where a 2-hour drive was a requirement. Tell your wife, it's the starkness ... that's part of what makes the people less so. The harsher the environment, seems the kinder and more resilient the people, but not to be taken advantage of. Bring the family out and see what's out here - they might be surprised.

May I ask, what County?
Clean them,<br />Load them,<br />Keep them near at hand.<br />Remember Capt. Parker.<br /><br />\\\"Les hommes sages n\\\'ont pas besoin conseil. Idiots ne le prendront pas.\\\"

Offline Tornos

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2009, 01:03:43 PM »
May I ask, what County?

San Bernardino.

Offline MamaLiberty

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2009, 01:26:18 PM »
San Bernardino.

Oh dear... my condolences.  >:D  I lived and worked there for more than 20 years.
It's not that people are dumber, it's that stupidity used to be more painful.

Offline Big Ugly

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2009, 01:36:10 PM »
Actually, Most of the Deputies in San Berdoo County were better than most, right there along with the most Eastern and Northern Counties.
Stand to, Hold true to your Oath.
Clean them,<br />Load them,<br />Keep them near at hand.<br />Remember Capt. Parker.<br /><br />\\\"Les hommes sages n\\\'ont pas besoin conseil. Idiots ne le prendront pas.\\\"

Offline MamaLiberty

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2009, 01:58:49 PM »
Actually, Most of the Deputies in San Berdoo County were better than most, right there along with the most Eastern and Northern Counties.
Stand to, Hold true to your Oath.

Depends on when you were there. Sheriff Tidwell, a neighbor of mine in the 60s and 70s, was an old time 'peace officer' and a fine gentleman. After he retired, several far lesser men were sheriff, and at the last (late 1990s) the entire sheriff's department had a reputation for corruption and growing gestapo tendencies. Many of the local police departments had similar reputations.
It's not that people are dumber, it's that stupidity used to be more painful.

Offline elk

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2009, 03:53:56 PM »
Well, you can unelect a sheriff you can't unelect his posse of unelected deputies.  I was in gloucester.  One old fellow guards the cinema on saturdays on the point.  Total gentleman.  Damn shame he wears an uniform.  I'd rather see him as well paid private security.

A younger, crew cut JERK, for lack of more christian friendly profanity (family friendly's a misnomer pushed by the theocrats as far as I'm concerned) decides to thug on me while I'm waiting for my father outside the farm fresh.  Now, get this right, I'm in the fire lane... there's space all over, I'm where I can see any vehicle coming and move my car.  Yet the idiot just wanted to exercise his "authoritah."

Sorry, I don't agree with you on that Shawn.  I don't need protectors, and neither does any man worthy of life.  If you deserve your life, you take steps to protect it as best you can, and enrich it, in both material and spiritual wealth (goodies + friends + accomplishments and knowledge)... however I must draw the worst of the cops out when I'm out... or I simply don't kowtow to them.

Hint, the rules out here are fairly simple... you can be waiting for someone outside a store in the fire lane ONLY if you're awake and in your car.  I even had the car running.  If a fire engine or ambulance could not have found anywhere to park but my spot, out of the 300 square feet of firelane in front of that store... I would have gladly moved to make room.  Deputy Dipshit just wanted to show me who's boss.  Since I didn't feel like being arrested, and put my new home on the office record by giving them my address, I decided to play along... merely to keep my anonymity. 

I can't say as I'll feel sorry for Deputy Dipshit's family when some gangbanger blows him away in Hampton.  In fact, I might just cheer and praise the man in the local rebel rag.  This jerk has it coming.


So no, I wager all we're seeing now, is simply the end result of government, sorry to be the bringer of bad news Shawn.  You're in a line of work for cutthroats and murderers and thugs.  If you're a good guy, start your own private security group, and screen your customers.  Contract with a gated community, and screen your employees too.  Short of being sheriff voluntarily and running a department based on voluntary donations, I don't see how it can be done via natural law.  I thought the concept of natural law was, you seek what you desire and compensate those who possess it, unless you prefer to overpower them,and take, and then run the risk of them fighting back and defeating you.  "We" have no natural law, since uniformed men automatically have all the rights, and non uniformed men are "civilians" receiving neither respect due, nor any thanks for the fact that the uniformed, producing nothing, would starve to death without those whom they tax, abuse and fleece.

Sorry mate, just how I see it.  I understand that the position would be filled.

My father once asked me "and what would you replace the government with?"

I asked him... "if you got cancer, what would you replace a bulging deadly tumor with?"

He doesn't get metaphors easily, but I wager you do.  So while its still around, sure, do it since policing is one of the few paid jobs left (as is the case in all metastasized states.)  However, line up something honorable for when the state goes away... if even for a brief interlude in a sea of stupidity or tyranny.  (Something honorable means that I can opt out of it without your colleagues dressing up in Counterstrike getups and kicking my door in to "confiscate" my "unlicensed paraphernalia" for whatever the new taboos will be.) 
Trading privacy for security is stupid enough; not getting any actual security in the bargain is even stupider.  ~ Bruce Schneier of Cryptogram fame (www.schneier.com)

Remember always that the only thing they required of us was our moral sanction. You lost when you accepted their moral code.

Offline Paul Bonneau

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2009, 09:28:09 AM »
Quote
I'd say "Unjust laws turn men into sheep", because decent folk aren't touched in the least by those laws firmly grounded in the Natural Law.

So Shawn, you don't bother folks driving around with expired tags? We'll get along just fine.  :)

I can kinda see your point about unjust laws, but it's not just the unjust laws that turn men into sheep. The just ones do too. What I mean is, they make people stop thinking about what is right and wrong, what they are willing to put up with, what they purposefully disobey, why they should or shouldn't do that, how to respond if braced by a cop, etc. If there were nothing but just laws out there, they would still cause that problem. "It's the law, all I need to know!" Er, no.

Ever read Thoreau's Civil Disobedience? Everyone should be familiar with it, and others like it. But they are not. They are sheep. (Here I am, calling people sheep, when I have nagged others about doing that.  ::))

People need to get beyond their indoctrination in the government youth camps and start thinking about these things.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2009, 09:35:47 AM by Paul Bonneau »
Laws turn men into slaves.

Offline Tornos

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2009, 11:46:31 AM »
'Gestapo tendencies' is a little dramatic, I hope.  There are those in my Department who are more like what you describe, yes.  My only point defending my Department is that I'm not pressured to go that route.  I never said it was a perfect example of what a Sheriff's Office should be. 

To Elk:  Yes, you can unelect a Sheriff, but not his deputies.  However, a County Sheriff has near total influence over how his deputies do their work, if he cares to exercise it.  And if they're not working according to policy he sets, he can fire them.  It happens all the time.  That other stuff you said... like the man who ticketed you because you were in a fire lane deserving to be gunned down, and having no sympathy for his family, is hateful garbage.  Luckily, I know it isn't representative of the spirit of this group.  We disagree, and it would be useless to argue with you.

In fact, I won't argue with any of the 'no government' crowd.  We just disagree.  I'm an 'almost no government' sort... a 'government that stays within the bounds of the Constitution' sort.  I'm of Ron Paul's philosophy.  And even then I admit that the Constitution has a few Hamiltonian poison pills in it that it would be great to correct.  One day perhaps we'll have another Constitutional Convention and do that.  But, even as it is, if our Constitution were interpreted according to what was meant at the time it was written, instead of twisted and tortured by successive generations of political lawyers, it would serve its purpose fine and we wouldn't have these problems.

Now, to get more realistic and into the short term... Isn't one of the major purposes of the FSW project to weigh the population of Wyoming such that political change can be affected... through the system?  There is a way to limit the government, to get them out of your life, through election of liberty minded representatives.  Dont like having to register your vehicles (just one example)?  Get your representatives to repeal that law.  Privatize the roads and maintenance of them.  I'm all for that... but expect to pay the folks who maintain those roads then.

If what I described in the last paragraph is a goal of the FSW, along with having good, freedom loving neighbors, then I belong here.  If the goal is to overthrow all government, I do not.  I still have hope for a return to freedom through educating the citizenry and state-level political organization.

-Shawn

Offline jubal

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2009, 01:26:02 PM »


   HMMmmm, well Shawn, if you want a political solution to the problems politically. How do you solve them with politicians making the decisions to solve the political problems??? Oxymoron????
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When planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary".
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Offline Boston

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2009, 02:06:17 PM »
Hi Shawn, and welcome to our forum.

As the Founder of the FSW, I can state that the FSW is not an anarchist org.
Personally, I'd like to reduce government to the smallest level possible, but I
also am doubtful that government could be erased altogether.  Besides, it would
take decades to achieve that, making the prospect more theoretical than practical.

Basically, I think that most FSWers want a small and responsible government acting
in the best interests of The People, and constrained by law.   We don't yet have that anywhere. 


Quote
I am an Oathkeepers kind of peace officer.
Good enough for me!
I'm looking forward to meeting you and your family out here sometime.

 ~W~
Boston

Offline Tornos

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2009, 02:23:17 PM »
Jubal:  Elect the right ones.  If the right ones aren't running, get someone you know is right and make them run!  Then vote for them.  Or run yourself.  There are a few examples of politicians who will shrink the state out there... Ron Paul of TX, Jason Chaffetz of UT, Michelle Bachmann of MN, to name a few.  And those are from the U.S. House of Representatives, so there must be even better folks to be found in local politics... if we really, really look carefully.  Why the state of politics in the U.S. is in such disrepair is that we didn't pay attention... and neither did our parents or grandparents.  Most people still just look for an R or D after a name, and then pull the lever.  It can be done if we educate ourselves, educate our kids, and work smart.  Maybe I'm just an optimist?

Boston:  Thanks.  I appreciate the welcomes from everyone.  I'll stick around, meet and greet on the forum... and even read some good books!  With any luck I'll be in Wyoming with the family to visit/recon next summer.  Until then!

-Shawn