Author Topic: Hello! Do I belong here?  (Read 30883 times)

Offline biathlon

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2009, 11:52:30 AM »
FISHING!!!!! Now yer talking! Don't mention my name anywhere near the water or the fish will depart in a panic stricken frenzy ;D My boy is 5. How old are yer kids?

Offline Tornos

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #46 on: September 02, 2009, 12:09:54 PM »
I have two daughters, 5 and 6. :)

Offline elk

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #47 on: September 03, 2009, 02:04:42 AM »
Shawn... a trucker I knew a long time ago, heard a story from a friend on "how to move out west."

He said to him... "buy you some land, son, and then go ahead, and buy a trailer or mobile home, 10 grand or so, less if you don't mind fixing up a used one or old one.  Slap it down on that land you bought, and voila, home with no mortgage.  Then while you settle matters over here, and build your home over there, take your time and do it all right, you'll have that small but safe place, your mobile home."

To that handed down advice I can add "insulate the bottom, and get some of the more space age centimeter wide air bubble insulation as opposed to fiber glass, and you've got yourself a toasty place to weather a winter or two."  I don't have any mortgages, so, for me, that might be easier than for you.  But we'll see who gets where and gets settled in first. :)  My friend's advice might help you avoid a second mortgage until you're rid of the first one.  If you don't mind dealing with cramped quarters, it will hopefully help you not have to go too far broke or into debt servicing two sets of interest while trying to pay down two sets of principal amounts.

Just my ten cents, may it help you.
Trading privacy for security is stupid enough; not getting any actual security in the bargain is even stupider.  ~ Bruce Schneier of Cryptogram fame (www.schneier.com)

Remember always that the only thing they required of us was our moral sanction. You lost when you accepted their moral code.

Offline Tornos

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2009, 04:29:44 AM »
Sound advice.  If I can convince the girls to give up some comforts temporarily, it may just be a plan. 

Thanks. :)

Offline MamaLiberty

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2009, 05:35:03 PM »
Electoral politics consist of the idea that we're all too stupid and evil to run our own lives peacefully, but we're all smart and good enough to "elect" other people to run them and force us to be peaceful...

Does not compute...
It's not that people are dumber, it's that stupidity used to be more painful.

Offline Big Ugly

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2009, 05:56:34 PM »
I agree completely!
It really doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?
Clean them,<br />Load them,<br />Keep them near at hand.<br />Remember Capt. Parker.<br /><br />\\\"Les hommes sages n\\\'ont pas besoin conseil. Idiots ne le prendront pas.\\\"

Offline ZooT_aLLures

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #51 on: September 04, 2009, 12:12:23 AM »
Quote
It really doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?
No...............it doesn't make any sense at all.....................

Offline Tornos

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #52 on: September 04, 2009, 01:07:44 AM »
Bigger problem than that we have elected officials is that they were never supposed to have the power to run our lives, or force us to be peaceful.  Within the bounds of the enumerated powers, they'd actually be useful servants.  I know many disagree with me on that last, but nobody here likes that they've usurped so much power.  We just have divisions on what we want to do about it.

Go team!

Offline MamaLiberty

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #53 on: September 04, 2009, 05:54:18 AM »
A few problems with that. You might personally hire some "servants" and get them to do what YOU need them to do. But if many thousands - or millions - of people "hire" them, they have different needs and different ideas about what their servants are supposed to do. How can a servant satisfy millions of people? How can anyone actually "represent" more than a few folks who have similar ideas?

Those servants then are either confused and ineffective, since they can't satisfy everyone, or they manage to take control of the means (taxes) and exercise the control themselves. They then cease to be servants and become masters.

As long as those "elected" have the power to steal (tax), they will have the power to call the shots. When they "share" the loot with enough of those who are electing them, you have a closed loop. The servants, become masters, are now free to rob us all at will and can't realistically be fired.

Oh, you can "elect" different people, but since they will have the same power to rob and control, nothing will change but the names.

The key here is to ask if the whole process could be totally voluntary. If those who wanted to elect such "servants" were free to do so, and those of us who don't want any servants were free to opt out completely... do you think that would be acceptable to either the "servants" or those who hired them? Oh no... All must be controlled and "taxed," and the ultimate penalty for resistance to those "servants" is death. Not compatible with freedom in my book.

It's not that people are dumber, it's that stupidity used to be more painful.

Offline Tornos

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #54 on: September 04, 2009, 01:23:40 PM »
Actually, Mama, you are describing phenomena that are in agreement with what I said.  The power to tax... didn't exist in our founding documents.  The government was run completely on tariffs.  The fact that one congressman represents 300,000 people or more... is as a result of their manipulation, similar to their jerrymandering of districts to create 'safe' districts for themselves.  These are distortions of what our government was meant to be... though the tax power was amended in legally, it was completely misrepresented to the american people by those selling it.  Since the early 1800s we have increasingly tolerated our politicians to be powerhungry liars, and now we have real problems as a result.

We disagree that there are no people who could be elected who would work to turn the clock back on these usurpations.  I listed a few in another thread who are in congress, who are trying to do just that.  We need many more like them.  We need to pay better attention in the voting booth... and encourage/support the right people well before election day.

Let me do something different.  Mama... let's accept that we're in complete agreement on everything that matters.  Please answer two questions for me, then:

1)  Is there any need for a national military?  Even a small one, to defend our borders against foreign aggression?  To protect our shipping?  Are you suggesting that the defense of our nation be given over to private industry, or left in the hands of individual localities?

2)  What do you propose to do to fix the situation we find ourselves in, if you've given up on the idea of electing likeminded representatives?

 :)


Offline elk

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #55 on: September 04, 2009, 02:11:49 PM »
And yet trade tariffs, so to speak, were part of the primary reason why the real founders (the spilled blood and spent treasure guys) REBELLED!

Why should I pay washington for the "privilege" to trade with you, are you incompetent at dealing with others and require regulation of your actions?  Are you implying I might be?  Then why do you believe in requiring me to pay for all this, when in the end, it feeds an army of unnecessary bodies and creates no safety, just expense.

A cargo of flour to the mill, going through one or two states (which is okay as far as trading goes) ends up paying SO many tariffs, permits, operating authorities, license fees and other extortions which the "law abiding" call "the fair share" that by the end, from a 50 cent bag of flour (in today's economy) you'll be lucky if the buyer gets it at 1.99 a bag... factor in profits, and inflation and you still wonder why you're getting wiped out by food and commodity costs?

I understand paying a port owner his due, because I'm putting use on the docks HE paid to build and maintain, but that's a private issue between ME as the captain of my ship and the port owner as the owner of that very real set of docks and warehouses, and the employer of those very real dock employees.  I don't see where the government keeps me safe.  In a free nation (think Free Luna before it develops government) there would be no "revenue guard" to board ships in harbor and demand tribute, while also condemning nongovernment piracy as "bad" or "evil."

But you may feel free to justify piracy under color of law any way you want.

Going back to truckers... you've got the IFTA (international fuel tax agreement) sticker, which requires the owner of the truck to keep track of odometer ratings and fuel consumption so he can pay taxes to the government and receive a sticker... not having the sticker results in cops doing to the "evil" trucker what cops do best.  But wait!!!  You already pay fuel taxes at the pump!!!!  So, technically, the way I understand it your fuel is taxed TWICE!  (And then you get the ignorant / useful idiot government apologists who scream "without income taxes how would we pay for roads?!")

But wait till you see what happens to any poor bastard caught on a highway at the "fuel check" inspections.  See, for those of you who don't farm or drive diesels, you aren't aware that the bastards put red die in "tax free / farm" diesel.  That stuff's significantly cheaper than the "road" diesel, usually left murky and being either green, gray or brown in color.  If people actually paid attention and did the math, they'd realize that the government extracts insane, nearly incalculable amounts of wealth out of every day of your life.  Via both taxes on you, and everything and everyone you interact with, there is nothing you touch that hasn't been taxed, retaxed, supertaxed, and fleeced some more by those government thugs that are so necessary for our "safety."  At least according to the braindamaged apologists.

I believe all those interstate operators permits that each state extracts, and the feds extract some more are yet another form of "trade tariffs."  So while you as a cop can justify it, Shawn, think about the fact that everything you buy, had you had an honest productive job, would be MUCH cheaper.  And if people were still self policing as was the case before the invention of the criminal enterprise known as professional police, instead of people looking around like scared rabbits and slamming their brakes at the sight of a speed trap cruiser or ticketlight, we'd have almost no accidents caused by such ridiculous fearful action, justifiable though it might be.  People seek the freedom of speeding on the road and people seek freedom, but know that bullies will demand their wealth, and have been mentally neutered to respect your uniform, rather than see those of your profession for the highwaymen and JBT's they actually are.

That's my view, and while I'll be nice to you while you extract my time and wealth from me at gun point, the day you do, you stop being human, in my eyes, that standing invitation for a brewski when we meet gets silently cancelled, and you add another straw to the camel's back.  And we're not far off from when the guillotines roll out and justice is meted out by the throng... as Jeff Snyder so snidely put it, and I so snidely paraphrase it, "french revolution style."


Also if you start saying that "free trade brought ruin to our economy" ask yourself... "free trade?"  Free trade would've implied a 1 page law, stating as follows... "no trade imposits or tariffs will be placed upon any private vessel or its crew, when entering a non government or privately owned port that has signed onto this free trade agreement, such port being a non government port and purpose of vessel being for any purpose, be it commerce or recreation, or other non government purposes not explicitly listed in this document. 

Take note: vessels setting out from a port abiding by this agreement will be advised to be careful of docking at foreign ports that aren't signatory to this 1 page, very clear and simple agreement, and to negotiate fees and rates with the owners of the port prior to docking.."


Somehow, NAFTA/CAFTA/etcFTA's have all been a lot lengthier in their setup, and nowhere nearly clear... so let US be clear, trade controls by governments are precisely why we are where we are, why we're all looking to leave where we live now, to go to a freer area and to try, for a change, to at least keep that area INHOSPITABLE to fools, so that they might, for a change, stop following us once we tame the place.  We're in this predicament because, free trade agreement or no free trade agreement, there hasn't been actual FREE (unregulated, untaxed, uncontrolled) trading in known history... the little that was, was the buccaneers of Tortuga and the privateers of the past (not the government licensed pirates who helped empires dominate the sea, mind you, but they're lost to history and mostly villified by every history book sold to us as truth by the very establishment whose existence, such lies guarantee.
Trading privacy for security is stupid enough; not getting any actual security in the bargain is even stupider.  ~ Bruce Schneier of Cryptogram fame (www.schneier.com)

Remember always that the only thing they required of us was our moral sanction. You lost when you accepted their moral code.

Offline elk

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #56 on: September 04, 2009, 02:18:17 PM »
I forgot to add one thing (I'll let Mama take first crack at your other questions about national military and navy to 'protect' "our" shipping)... but I'll address the protection of shipping lanes.

Did you ever read the article that ran on yahoo! news about a year back at the height of the media frenzy on somalian pirates?  Did you notice, perhaps, in that article that it was mentioned that the pirates were actually a lesser expense for the cruise liners than paying all the tribute... AHEM... tariffs and operating authorities and fees they required to travel through "national waters" of established plunder bands... AHEM... "national governments" ?

Apparently 1 in 100 ships gets jacked, 1 in 1 gets ransomed, the pirates treat their "guests" reasonably (except, apparently, those guys dumping toxic waste off the coast, those are apparently the ones that require military rescue and keeping of story under wraps.)  Either way, apparently having to ransom 1 ship every 100 runs is cheaper for the cruiselines than sailing through nearby national waters... how very strange, is it not?  Guess maybe the cruiselines find it less damaging to them to do this, than to accept the 'protection' of national militaries?  Weird that.  Must be a fluke, I'm sure.
Trading privacy for security is stupid enough; not getting any actual security in the bargain is even stupider.  ~ Bruce Schneier of Cryptogram fame (www.schneier.com)

Remember always that the only thing they required of us was our moral sanction. You lost when you accepted their moral code.

Offline Tornos

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #57 on: September 04, 2009, 02:43:51 PM »
And yet trade tariffs, so to speak, were part of the primary reason why the real founders (the spilled blood and spent treasure guys) REBELLED!

Why should I pay washington for the "privilege" to trade with you, are you incompetent at dealing with others and require regulation of your actions?  Are you implying I might be?  Then why do you believe in requiring me to pay for all this, when in the end, it feeds an army of unnecessary bodies and creates no safety, just expense.

Ok.  I wasn't specific enough.  The government was originally funded by import tariffs on foreign entities wishing to trade with us.  That is my understanding, anyhow.  If anyone can correct that, with a historical source I can look at, please do.  I wasn't suggesting any tariff between citizens.  That's a sales tax, and tariffs between states are prohibited by the constitution's interstate commerce clause.

Offline MamaLiberty

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #58 on: September 04, 2009, 02:55:47 PM »
Tornos, the presence or absence of some sort of military is not the real issue. The issue is theft. Is theft ever justified?

If some people, companies, shippers, whatever, decide they need a military - then they organize one and pay for it. They can collect donations from others, hold a bake sale, or sell part of their assets - but they can't legitimately steal from people to finance it.

Will there be some "free riders?" Of course. There are millions of them today and nobody seems to notice. But will the really necessary jobs get done? Most likely, since those who would lose the most by an invasion or piracy or whatever would pay the most - and be willing to do so. The key is voluntary cooperation and mutual defense.

The misadventures and invasion of other countries probably would NOT happen, however, since even if funds could be raised for such, these sort of actions would not be supported by most people. Think about how far the insane invasion and destruction of Iraq, etc. would have gone if it had been financed voluntarily rather than by massive theft. Would all the people who screamed "support" of the invasions and "wars" have actually written checks monthly to carry them out? I don't think so.

As for your second question, sorry, but I'm not obligated to present a 100% foolproof, totally planned and organized future for every person in order to know that theft, murder and lies are NOT the answer.

How about leaving people alone to live their lives, own their bodies and property, be personally responsible for their actions and choices, and figure it out as they go along. That's called the free market. There is no way to plan for the details. People have to negotiate their interactions moment to moment between themselves and agree on contracts for longer term situations. That's what makes freedom!

The exciting thing is that we already know how to do this! We all do it each and every day in MOST of our interactions and activities. We don't need a "law" to tell us to do anything, or NOT to do anything. Most of us know right from wrong without a politician making the decision for us.

Those who harm others, lie and steal, do so in SPITE of all the laws, politicians and so forth. Always have, and always will. All we can do is be aware, alert, self responsible and defend ourselves from these people - and help each other to do so. VOLUNTARILY!!
It's not that people are dumber, it's that stupidity used to be more painful.

Offline Tornos

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #59 on: September 04, 2009, 02:57:08 PM »

So while you as a cop can justify it, Shawn, think about the fact that everything you buy, had you had an honest productive job, would be MUCH cheaper.  And if people were still self policing as was the case before the invention of the criminal enterprise known as professional police, instead of people looking around like scared rabbits and slamming their brakes at the sight of a speed trap cruiser or ticketlight, we'd have almost no accidents caused by such ridiculous fearful action, justifiable though it might be.  People seek the freedom of speeding on the road and people seek freedom, but know that bullies will demand their wealth, and have been mentally neutered to respect your uniform, rather than see those of your profession for the highwaymen and JBT's they actually are.

That's my view, and while I'll be nice to you while you extract my time and wealth from me at gun point, the day you do, you stop being human, in my eyes, that standing invitation for a brewski when we meet gets silently cancelled, and you add another straw to the camel's back.  And we're not far off from when the guillotines roll out and justice is meted out by the throng... as Jeff Snyder so snidely put it, and I so snidely paraphrase it, "french revolution style."

I'm not talking as a cop here.  I'm trying to have a honest discussion between folks who agree about 95-99% of the issue.  Your fiery condemnation of my profession, and my personal value or lack of humanity because of it, do not advance that discussion.

I wouldn't mind some other perspectives on those two questions I aked though. ;D