Author Topic: Hello! Do I belong here?  (Read 30631 times)

Offline socalserf

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #90 on: September 05, 2009, 07:12:51 PM »
Washington should have known better.

"If only Uncle Joe knew!"



That is it exactly!
Old George knew Alexander intimately, they were in fact birds of a feather.
Read some of Washington's quotes, there were few men more elitist than G.W.

Adambomb, these are for your use;
 
A concise work by Rothbard on the Whiskey Rebellion.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard1.html

Here is my favorite reference;
The Whiskey Rebellion: Frontier Epilogue to the American Revolution by Thomas P. Slaughter
http://www.amazon.com/Whiskey-Rebellion-Frontier-Epilogue-Revolution/dp/0195051912

Shay’s Rebellion-
A short article,
http://www.unknownnews.org/0812-02HR.html

Shays's Rebellion: The American Revolution's Final Battle, by Leonard L. Richards
http://www.amazon.com/Shayss-Rebellion-American-Revolutions-Battle/dp/0812218701/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_c

Tornos-
PM regarding Appleseed sent.

Elk-
On the money as usual.
Something I like to point out is that if the USA wasn't an Empire we wouldn't have had any wars in the past century.
We would have been served very well indeed by a militia.
BTW, until 1968 ordinary citizens owned and operated light and heavy artillery with no issues or problems.
And before 1934 ordinary citizens owned and operated light and heavy machineguns.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2009, 07:55:05 PM by socalserf »

Offline Tornos

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #91 on: September 05, 2009, 08:12:20 PM »
Seriously?

George Washington = Joe Stalin?

George Washington who refused to accept a third term in office?  Who cautioned against the growth of federal power?  Who rejected outright Hamilton's suggestion that Washington be King?  He wasn't perfect, but comparing him to Stalin brings ridicule to an otherwise productive discussion.  He clearly listened too often to Hamilton, and in this case was dead wrong, but Washington was no 'Uncle Joe'.  That sort of over the top comparison may be red meat for anti-government folks, but isn't going to convince anyone else.

Kylben, I'm sorry if this post sounds chastising.  I did condemn his actions in regard to the Whiskey Rebellion, but I'm not willing to condemn the man outright.  Do you have more examples of Washington's despotic tendencies?  I may have been misled by a poor educational system, but for the most part I remember Washington resisting and cautioning against the abuses of government.

Offline socalserf

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #92 on: September 05, 2009, 08:38:19 PM »
I don't presume to speak for Kylben; he is far more articulate than I.

I will guess that his reference was to the tendency of the public to absolve Big Men and to lay blame at the feet of unpopular subordinates. Famously illustrated by Kylben’s historical reference quote. Stalin encouraged this, of course.

As far as G. Washington being the equelvent of  Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili,
I think Stalin was almost unequalled in evil. Again, that is just my opinion.

Offline Tornos

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #93 on: September 05, 2009, 08:47:43 PM »
Old George knew Alexander intimately, they were in fact birds of a feather.
Read some of Washington's quotes, there were few men more elitist than G.W.
Two Washington quotes I like:

"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action."

"If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."


And a quote that in part I agree with, because it refers only to national defense... but which is still very troubling because it advocates compulsion:

"It may be laid down as a primary position, and the basis of our system, that every Citizen who enjoys the protection of a Free Government, owes not only a proportion of his property, but even of his personal services to the defense of it."

So, he was not perfect.  I conceed that point.  He was a man we needed, to free ourselves of the British Empire.  He was an inspirational figure.  He was an imperfect servant of liberty.  But he was far removed from Joe Stalin.

Offline kylben

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #94 on: September 05, 2009, 10:47:21 PM »
Tornos, context is important.  Of course Washington was nothing like Stalin.  Socalserf expressed it well, but I'll add that the quote is not about Joe, and the reference to it was not about George. It says nothing whatsoever about either man, and it is negligent thinking to assume it does, let alone to read into it an intent to imply an equivalence.

The quote and my reference to it refer to the naivete of people who think those leading things are oblivious to what is going on, and would put a stop to it if only someone would tell them what is really happening.  The fact is that while Hammy certainly took advantage of George's advancing feeblemindedness, Washington was far from an innocent dupe. He agreed with what Hamilton was doing, though it is likely that he failed to understand the full scope of Hamilton's ambitions.
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adambomb

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #95 on: September 06, 2009, 01:09:31 AM »
Socalserf-
Thanks for the recommendations.  I gave Shay's rebellion a quick look on Wikipedia, but, well, I mean it was Wikipedia.  Nice to have some more "peer reviewed" references.  Also looks like my informal mental list of things to read has now turned into a written list!  No biggie though, it's still more satisfying than TV.  Ha, that reminds me, during the big DTV switch I had decided I wasn't going to partake in the big converter box handout, my TV would still work with the DVD and Playstation, which is all I ever used it for anyway, but my parents managed to talk me into getting a government-funded converter.  Some 9 months later, it's still sitting on the floor, next to the TV, still in its box...

As far as owning machine guns and howitzers, just another example of me thinking perhaps I was born in the wrong century.  But then again, maybe I am wrong, perhaps this could be the RIGHT century... ~W~

Offline ZooT_aLLures

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #96 on: September 06, 2009, 09:01:19 AM »
Quote
I may have been misled by a poor educational system, but for the most part I remember Washington resisting and cautioning against the abuses of government.
Yeah, but that wasn't reason enough for him to keep his fingers out of the formation and/or function of this abusive entity, now was it?
I'm thinking that by that time he had learned what a grave mistake he had been involved in, and no longer wanted any part of it.....

And as far as that goes, alcohol is still a heavilly taxed product, and you're right that first tax opened the door other taxes, and it wasn't long after a war had been fought against the taxes the king had imposed on them either. And now 250 years later the government gets more of ones paycheck than the person earning the money does.
Slavery comes in many forms, but is defined as being forced to work for the benefit of another...........and whether that benefit is called national defense or law enforcement is irrelevant, what is relevant is that one is forced to work for the benefit of another, and for that matter, even to keep what one has already bought and paid for in this land of freedom and liberty.

In the book of Thomas, there's a passage that goes(paraphrased)
When the lamb lies with the lion and the lion lies with the lamb, does the lamb not become the lion, and the lion not become the lamb?


Offline Brandy

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #97 on: September 06, 2009, 09:38:18 AM »
Hamilton and the Whiskey Boys

   The Whiskey Rebellion of 1794 was the first major challenge of sovereignty following the War for Independence.  It showed that not all citizens would be satisfied with the young government; and, that the establishment was fully capable of responding to a rebellion resulting from such dissatisfaction.
   Following the 1780’s, the young United States government had reached greater financial needs.  Alexander Hamilton, Washington’s Secretary of the Treasury, wanted to increase revenue.  Among other methods, he introduced a stiff new excise tax on whiskey and stills.  Congress passed the tax on March 3, 1791.   It became the Tariff Act of 1792  and placed a tax of 20 to 30 cents on every gallon of whiskey produced.   The measure was not welcomed, and legislatures of North Carolina, Virginia and Maryland even passed resolutions of disapproval shortly thereafter.   
   Farmers in western Pennsylvania were especially offended; they began to rally together in a refusal to pay the tax.  A frontier lawyer by the name of David Bradford helped to organize resistance.  Herman Husband, who had previously led the North Carolina Regulars, also assisted the insurgents.    Some men opposed a violent
rebellion, most notable was Hugh Backenridge and Albert Gallatin.  Their moderating efforts likely prevented the secession of Washington County from Pennsylvania and the Union.   
   The whiskey producers weren’t just protesters to the tax.  On one occasion they tarred and feathered a collection officer.  Another was severely flogged with beach rods and run out of the region.   Everything came to a head on July 17 1794.   Alexander Hamilton related the events himself to President Washington in a letter dated August 2: “Armed collections of men…have attacked the house of the inspector of the Revenue, burnt and destroyed his property, and shed the blood of persons engaged in it’s defense”.
   Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution gives congress the power “To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the Union, suppress insurrections, and repel invasions”.  The approval was given and the Militia was called up.  Hamilton implored Washington to gather an “imposing” force, as to “save the effusion of the blood of the citizens”.   The President heeded this advice; on August 7 1794, four states furnished him with 15,000 men. 
   Washington immediately marched on western Pennsylvania accompanied by Generals Daniel Morgan, Henry Lee, as well as Alexander Hamilton in uniform.   Hamilton was proving his conviction by going with the army as he explained to Angelica Church in a letter dated October 23, 1794: “’tis useful that those who propose measures should partake in whatever dangers they may involve”.
   Hamilton reminded Washington that a proclamation was required by law to be issued previous to the use of force.   The proclamation apparently had little or no effects.  Upon the approach of the formidable militia, however, the rebels laid down arms, solicited clemency and promised future submission. 
   There were several factors that triggered the insurrection, this included regional conditions.  Western Pennsylvania at the time was relatively remote economically, and grain was not cost-effective to ship long distances.  Whiskey, however, could bear the cost of transport; it was even valuable enough to be used as trading currency.  Therefore, extra grain was usually distilled. Because whiskey had this ubiquity, everyone felt the weight of the excise tax.
   One must remember how recent the revolution was to the new Americans.  The United States had declared its independence only eighteen years before.  Certainly there were many whiskey-still owners who felt that the tax on whiskey was as objectionable as Britain’s pre-revolution Stamp Act.  They likely believed the response should be the same: violent opposition.
   Hamilton explains in his August 2 letter to Washington how “Various alterations have been made…” to the excise tax,  although it never appears that he would support repeal of the Act.  There is evidence that Hamilton was actually expecting a rebellion from the very beginning in his October 23 letter to Angelica Church; he wrote: “Assure [Mr. Church] that the insurrection will do us a great deal of good and add to the solidity of everything in this country”.   The rebels seemed to fall into the government’s plans, as Madison charged, to “establish the principle that a standing army was necessary for enforcing the laws”.
   Jefferson helped to repeal the tax after he took office in 1801.   This surely came as welcome relief to many, but the decade of the Act’s duration and the resulting rebellion had important effects on the nation.
   Unfortunately for the grain farmers, the military confrontation was a direct result of their violence in the summer of 1794.  If they had continued to peaceably refuse to pay they may have avoided the government’s hammer.  The Pennsylvanians had a right to resist the tax, but they initiated force, which gave the government cause to suppress their actions. 
   Conversely, this gave the government the chance to prove it was strong enough to cope with the situation.   Quickly mustering 15,000 militia was obvious proof.  This over-capable force was important to President Washington because “we had given no testimony to the world of being able or willing to support our government and laws”.
   The first Administration of the United States had successfully established the authority of the system.  Men in history have rebelled against oppressive governments many times.  The difference was that these governments generally had perpetrated serious crimes against citizen or human rights.  This time, the government had only passed a disagreeable tax, which they had not enforced militarily before the rebellion.  The rebels had to learn that being a citizen under the Constitution was different from being a subject of a king.  The real lesson was that an aggrieved party should work within the system of the Constitution for as long as is possible before resorting to force.










Bibliography

Bailyn, Bernard, et al., The Great Republic. Lexington: D. C. Heath and Company, 1981.

Burke, Merle. United States History: The Growth or our Land. Chicago: American Technical Society, 1957.

Carruth, Gorton, and Associates, eds., The Encyclopedia of American Facts and Dates. New York: Thomas Y. Cromwell Company, 1972.

Cousins, R. B., and Hill, J. A., American History for Schools. Boston: D. C. Heath and                                                                                                                              Co., 1913.

Freeman, Joanne B., ed., Alexander Hamilton: Writings. New York: Library of America, 2001.

Garrity, John A., 1,001 Things Everyone should Know about American History. New York: Doubleday, 1989.

Goodrich, Rev. Charles A., A History of the United States of America, on a Plan Adapted to Aid the Memory by Systematic Arrangement and Interesting Associations. Shoals, 1822.

Montgomery, D. H., The Leading Facts of American History. Chicago: Ginn and Company, 1910

Morison, Samuel Eliot, The Oxford history of the American People. New York: Oxford University Press, 1965.

Overton, Bruce, ed., Macmillan’s Modern Dictionary: Revised Edition. New York: The Macmillan Company, 1945.

Rocheleau, William F. ed., The Home and School Reference Work. 6 vols. Kansas City: The Kieth and Dixon Company, 1913.

Wirth, Fremont P., The Development of America. Boston: American Book Company, 1948.
 
Veritas numquam perit - Truth never perishes!

Offline Tornos

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #98 on: September 06, 2009, 11:23:41 AM »
Tornos, context is important.  Of course Washington was nothing like Stalin.  Socalserf expressed it well, but I'll add that the quote is not about Joe, and the reference to it was not about George. It says nothing whatsoever about either man, and it is negligent thinking to assume it does, let alone to read into it an intent to imply an equivalence.

Perhaps I've become a bit touchy.  Yes, of course, Washington was a big boy and capable of understanding what he was doing.  My "Washington should have known better" was a statement of disapproval over what he did, not that he was ignorant of what he was doing.  Your referencing that statement about Washington, and then adding the "Uncle Joe" quote made me think you were drawing a comparison.  Sorry if I misunderstood your context, there just wasn't much context given.

Anyhow, this has been instructive.  I've learned something about these early rebellions. :D  It's amazing how quickly the federal government started expanding its power.  I can't say that the Whiskey Tax was illegal, but it seems to have been the first step down a long road of ever-worstening abuses.

Offline ZooT_aLLures

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #99 on: September 06, 2009, 11:28:45 AM »
Quote
but it seems to have been the first step down a long road of ever-worstening abuses.
Yeah.............to the point that government now gets more of your paycheck than you do....

Offline biathlon

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #100 on: September 06, 2009, 02:11:10 PM »
I'm glad you've stuck around Tornos. You definetly have a thick hide. I hope you'll show up at one of our gatherings and sit to have a beer to get to know us.  ;D Are you former military? ::)

Offline Tornos

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #101 on: September 06, 2009, 08:52:50 PM »
Thanks, I like beer.  Hopefully we'll have that chance next summer.;D

I was in the Army Reserve.  That was during the Bush41/Clinton years.  Served out my enlistment, and moved back into being a full time civilian.  The military can really help directionless youngsters find their way.  Maybe service in a state militia/guard would do the same.  In my case it was completely voluntary, as it should be.  :)

Offline kylben

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #102 on: September 07, 2009, 08:39:00 PM »
Sorry if I misunderstood your context, there just wasn't much context given ...   It's amazing how quickly the federal government started expanding its power.

Well, the context was your quote, which was about his state of knowledge not his actions.  Anyway, no harm done.  As I say about the Whiskey rebellion, putting it down sent the message that resistance to taxation with representation would not be tolerated.  Kinda set the tone for the next two and a half centuries.

You think that was eye-opening, bring up Lincoln around here some time.  >:D

Just remember, when you read history, from the founding to the present, that we live in Hamilton's America more than anybody else's, and that today is part and parcel of it. He was the true father of this country, not Washington. Our country was strangled in it's infancy, and replaced with Hammy's Bastard Stepchild.

It puts a lot of things in a very different context.
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Offline Tornos

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #103 on: September 07, 2009, 10:57:07 PM »
You think that was eye-opening, bring up Lincoln around here some time.  >:D

There is a saying; "If you can't find anything good to say about someone, don't say anything at all."

That's all I have to say about Lincoln. :-X

Offline socalserf

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Re: Hello! Do I belong here?
« Reply #104 on: September 07, 2009, 11:05:43 PM »
Tornos, I think your going to fit in here just fine.


Thanks, I like beer. 


That is the statement that puts you over!!

Congrtaulations!!  ;D ~W~