Author Topic: The 11 Principles of Open Source Peaceful Evolution  (Read 18501 times)

Offline SteveM

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Re: The 11 Principles of Open Source Peaceful Evolution
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2009, 03:31:16 PM »
Do you really want to become one of the thieves? Theft is not justified, regardless of who is being robbed - or why.

Refuse to be robbed, by all means. But it is unethical to encourage anyone to become a receiver of stolen goods.

Agreed.  Opting out as much as possible and living independent of they system.  Establishing a network of barter, services and goods that operate outside the mainstream.  The current system will collapse under it's own weight without encouraging others to take from it, and I think the key is to be in a position where it doesn't matter because you are not a part of it.  Even social security.  I want mine back because they took it from me by threat of force, spent it, and refuse to give it back with interest.  But in the end depending on it just ties you into the whole mess.  So I plan to live in a way that I can get along without if need be.
Fearlessness is better than a faint-heart for any man who puts his nose out of doors. The length of my life and the day of my death were fated long ago.
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Offline SunDog

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Re: The 11 Principles of Open Source Peaceful Evolution
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2009, 10:27:38 AM »
Do you really want to become one of the thieves? Theft is not justified, regardless of who is being robbed - or why.

Refuse to be robbed, by all means. But it is unethical to encourage anyone to become a receiver of stolen goods.

Taking what is given by a lawful owner is not stealing. Under the law, it's the Government's to give. (Of course if you wish to go beyond law to the greater ethics, you may have a point. But if you check the title to your home, I'll bet you find it traces to a Government "patent" under which they took it from the native American inhabitants, who by the way migrated from the east and took it from the previous native American inhabitants, etc.)

So if they wish to give, then take, to bring it down and bring about (we hope) a more just Government.

In the years before moving to Wyoming (Sheridan County, BTW) my wife and I worked. Together we've been taxed more than a quarter of a million dollars for "social security" and in the 16 years we spent in California, when we were both employed, we "contributed" more than a half million dollars in Federal and State income taxes. Of course, we were part of the unwilling dupes who the parasites were feeding on.  Now that we've rejected that, we will take as much back as we can.

Offline MamaLiberty

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Re: The 11 Principles of Open Source Peaceful Evolution
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2009, 03:33:42 PM »
None of the "taxes" I ever paid was in any way, shape or form voluntary or considered by me a "contribution." It was all theft.  I worked for nearly 50 years, and never even tried to count how much was stolen from me.

Unfortunately, all the money stolen from me and you was spent at the time of the theft. There is nothing left for you to "get back." Any money you get from the government now is being stolen from other workers currently, or "borrowed" (actually or through inflation") so it will be stolen from you, YOUR children and grandchildren now and in the future through higher taxes and prices.

Sorry Sundog, your scheme most certainly has no appeal to me. If you can live with yourself that way, so be it. I can only hope you will come to understand the truth one day.
It's not that people are dumber, it's that stupidity used to be more painful.

Offline Big Ugly

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Re: The 11 Principles of Open Source Peaceful Evolution
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2009, 04:45:04 PM »

Quote
None of the "taxes" I ever paid was in any way, shape or form voluntary or considered by me a "contribution." It was all theft.  I worked for nearly 50 years, and never even tried to count how much was stolen from me.


If you did not refuse, then you did consent - that makes it voluntary, like it or not.
It may have been 'voluntary' under protest, or under duress, but voluntary none the less.

Quote
Unfortunately, all the money stolen from me and you was spent at the time of the theft. There is nothing left for you to "get back." Any money you get from the government now is being stolen from other workers currently, or "borrowed" (actually or through inflation") so it will be stolen from you, YOUR children and grandchildren now and in the future through higher taxes and prices.

In other words ..... anyone on disability, who has ever drawn disability, or any other type of 'government' support - is a thief? This would, by necessity, include anyone (military, government, etc.) employed by the 'government' ... since ALL government monies are obtained by theft.

Right?

Please remember that one person's truth is another person's myth.
Clean them,<br />Load them,<br />Keep them near at hand.<br />Remember Capt. Parker.<br /><br />\\\"Les hommes sages n\\\'ont pas besoin conseil. Idiots ne le prendront pas.\\\"

Offline kylben

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Re: The 11 Principles of Open Source Peaceful Evolution
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2009, 05:15:25 PM »
Quote
anyone on disability, who has ever drawn disability, or any other type of 'government' support - is a thief? This would, by necessity, include anyone (military, government, etc.) employed by the 'government' ... since ALL government monies are obtained by theft.

I've always said that one of the problems with any acceptance of immoral behavior (even by others) is that it often leaves a moral man without any moral course of action.  Is it moral to take disability payments taken from others by taxes?  I think it is not.  Is it moral - after the government has taken your money and run all the voluntary alternatives out - to not take the money and just die?  Of course not.

The hardcore, "don't do anything that relies on government money or services no matter what" leads to obvious absurdities.  Under that rule, you can't live in your own house, nor can you leave it, nor can you die in it.

I posted, earlier on the same blog this OP links to, the rules that I follow.  They are not absolutes, none are possible in this moral environment.  They are guidelines to balance one set of immoral choices against another set of immoral choices, against my goals and values in life:

Government assets are unowned - unless they can be traced back to an individual owner - and thus are subject to homesteading and/or casual use. I have a right to camp out in a national park and claim that portion of it which I make use of as my property. I do not have the power to defend that right, so I won’t be homesteading Yellowstone if I move to Wyoming.

Beyond that, I won’t use services that are themselves immoral, such as calling the police on my neighbor for his using drugs.

I won’t use government goods or services that I can reasonably acquire elsewhere, or reasonably do without, on the basis that it is too easy for that to become a habit which undermines my independence.

I will seek to increase my ability to acquire goods and services outside the mechanism of government, on the basis that doing so increases my independence.

I will never promote or support the creation of such resources beforehand, on the basis of the Non-Aggression Principle.

I will seek always to minimize the effect my consumption of them has on incentivizing the further creation of them.

I will never sacrifice my life or my well-being to any of the above rules.

In each concrete case, I have to apply reason to the concrete contextual facts, measured against these contextual rules, the absolute principle of the NAP, and those absolute principles underlying it.
Carpe Libertas!
An Agorist Manifesto in 95 Theses: http://www.humanadvancement.net/blog/index.php?itemid=247/

Offline MamaLiberty

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Re: The 11 Principles of Open Source Peaceful Evolution
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2009, 05:19:27 AM »
If you did not refuse, then you did consent - that makes it voluntary, like it or not.
It may have been 'voluntary' under protest, or under duress, but voluntary none the less.

If the robber has a gun to your head and will kill you if you do not give him your wallet, have you then "consented" to his taking the wallet if you surrender? That is not the same thing as consent, by any means. Being robbed in fear of your life is not "voluntary." No rational tribunal in the world would judge otherwise.

And theft is not a myth.

Of course the application of non-aggression is not easy or clean in our current situation. But that does not in the least justify theft. You merely have to decide what level of theft you will tolerate before you fight to the death.
It's not that people are dumber, it's that stupidity used to be more painful.

Offline SunDog

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Re: The 11 Principles of Open Source Peaceful Evolution
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2009, 05:56:48 AM »
Sorry Sundog, your scheme most certainly has no appeal to me. If you can live with yourself that way, so be it. I can only hope you will come to understand the truth one day.

I understand the truth is not easy. I can live this way, and will do so. I do not make either the laws or the taxes, so if I can use one to offset what was taken by the other, I will, "lawfully." I have never subscribed to "all taxation is theft," by the way, so I suppose I am not libertarian. But I do think that wasteful taxation is foolish, and taxation that primarily benefits politicians is primarily theft.

I wish you a peaceful life lived by the truth as you perceive it. But don't think that careful scrutiny won't reveal flaws in your version of the truth, too. You are "in Wyoming" and so are living on land seized from those who possessed it, by the Government, by force. If the theft occurred before you were born, is it still "right" to benefit from it?

Offline Paul Bonneau

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Re: The 11 Principles of Open Source Peaceful Evolution
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2009, 12:44:15 PM »
I think Kyle has the right take on it. Don't be a hermit, but do if possible minimize your dependence on and feeding of the state.

I've heard Sundog's plan called "draining the swamp". The problem with it is that it degrades one. You are no better than all the other parasites, even if you convince yourself that your motives are pure. I'm sure all the other parasites have plausible rationalizations as well.

Susan is right. Your money is already pissed away. You can't get your money back by stealing that of others.

Big Ugly, I think you need to rethink your definition of "consent".  :)  It's not consent, even if there are possible different levels of resistance, or even non-resistance (in the face of threats of violence).

Quote
In other words ..... anyone on disability, who has ever drawn disability, or any other type of 'government' support - is a thief? This would, by necessity, include anyone (military, government, etc.) employed by the 'government' ... since ALL government monies are obtained by theft.

Technically, yes. However I believe there are different levels of fault here. Is some kid, indoctrinated his whole life in government schools, at the same level of fault for receiving stolen funds, as some corporate welfare case? Or someone who games the system to get tax funds? I hardly think so.

I took money from the government when I was in the Marines. I now regret it, but I don't think I was particularly a bad person. Just misguided and in a sense, victimized by that same government, myself. Fortunately I never was put in the position of killing someone defending his country from the empire.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 12:53:29 PM by Paul Bonneau »
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Offline Big Ugly

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Re: The 11 Principles of Open Source Peaceful Evolution
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2009, 01:14:25 PM »
I disagree, Paul, consent - no matter the impetus, is still consent.
Some are willing to resist to the death and others value their lives above absolute honour.
Where is the point where one will sacrifice honor in lieu of life. Don't know! Depends on the time, circumstance, and person.

Anyone may tell me they disagree - no one may tell me I'm wrong without showing me what IS right.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 01:17:27 PM by Big Ugly »
Clean them,<br />Load them,<br />Keep them near at hand.<br />Remember Capt. Parker.<br /><br />\\\"Les hommes sages n\\\'ont pas besoin conseil. Idiots ne le prendront pas.\\\"

Offline Vince

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Re: The 11 Principles of Open Source Peaceful Evolution
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2009, 02:08:55 PM »
Back in 1972 I went to work for a large company.  I started in their labor pool for $4.00 per hour.  Eighteen years old and making four bucks an hour!!  HOT DAMN!  Still living at home back then I sat down at the dining room table with pencil and paper.  I meant to organize the moola right and proper.

Mom came by and looked over my shoulder.  I looked up at her and grinned.  "Remember when I was little I promised to buy you a new washer?  And you just smiled and said, 'Uh huh'?  Well now I can afford to do it."  She did smile sweetly and thank me for the sentiment (and one of the first things I DID do with my pay was exactly that).  However she went on to say I was overlooking something in all my calculations.  I was budgeting things using $160 per 40 hour week.

"You're forgetting your silent partner.  If you don't pay him he gets noisy."

That was when it first came home to me what direct taxation meant.  Of course I'd heard of income taxes and social security was a known bankruptcy in the making, even then.

If I wanted to keep my newfound employment, I had to pay up.  And I've continued to "pay the shot" every two weeks going on for 37 years and a few months.

I guess it was consent Big Ugly my friend because I could always have worked under the table painting houses and selling water ice in the summer and fixing cars (all things I had done already at that time).  And I could also have lost a lot of sleep wondering when I would have to explain how I got the house I was sleeping in, the car I was driving, and everything else.  They called you in to explain discrepancies back then (and still do, if they don't shoot you).  So I've worked overtime to make up what I would get straight time if they didn't rob me at gunpoint.

I consented but damn if it didn't feel just like a mugging.  I have thought a lot over the years about what one man can do when he is obviously out gunned.  I could have "withheld consent" by the strictest definition way back when and lived a life of desperation.  Because that is what it is when you sleep lightly expecting the door to fall in on you.  Ask Irwin Schiff.

There is however something that I can certainly do now that I've reached the other end of the working life equation.  And I can know for a certainty that it is not only within principle but won't get my head bashed in.  I can refuse to RECEIVE their stolen money.  I can refuse to rob my children to pad my golden years.  When you ask what IS right, that is the answer.

And, while I agree with your standards regarding consent I would point out that the powers that be hold all the trumps and have used them to good effect.  Forced indoctrination from the age of six (and even younger now, kindergarten wasn't mandatory back then), television and really, our entire cultural milleau have all shaped us and it is going to take generations to re-awaken the stiff spine needed to back the government down at every turn.

In short, we may indeed have the courage to stand and fire under immediate threat to life and limb, to jump under the bus or run into the burning house for our children but that is different from the courage needed to face a crushed lifetime.  Thirty seven years in prison may have even made Patrick Henry do a double take.

Forgive the rant, but I tried to get this all out as it ran through me.

Vince
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Offline MamaLiberty

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Re: The 11 Principles of Open Source Peaceful Evolution
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2009, 02:29:48 PM »
Excellent, Vince...  Bravo.

It's sort of like the woman being raped. If she is armed, she can fight of course. But if she's been disarmed by her benevolent government, or family, or upbringing, she has two choices if she's all alone: submit or die. And sometimes she doesn't get a choice at all... she just has to die.

So, no... I won't buy it. We've been disarmed in many ways for a very long time. We're being raped, constantly, and fighting it all alone only gets you dead. Not that I'm afraid to fight it directly, by any means. When the time comes, I will no doubt die that way.

But in the meantime, no - I do not consent to being raped.
It's not that people are dumber, it's that stupidity used to be more painful.

Offline Vince

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Re: The 11 Principles of Open Source Peaceful Evolution
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2009, 02:48:45 PM »
Thanks Susan, pre shade it (to quote the famous redneck comedian) ;D

Someone on these boards, Paul Bonneau perhaps? pointed out that there are different types of courage.  Cyrano wrote anonymous poetry for a man who could easily expose his chest to bullets yet couldn't bring himself to tell the woman he loved how he felt.

We've all seen these aspects of our nature, knowing how to channel them has traditionally made the leaders among us.
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Offline Paul Bonneau

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Re: The 11 Principles of Open Source Peaceful Evolution
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2009, 03:04:20 PM »
This may be a bit of a semantic argument. Or it may be that the word "consent" has taken on other meanings, meanings the government wants it to have, just like when they talk about our "voluntary" tax compliance system. Still, when people do go into things like contractual arrangements, they do make the point of stating there is no compulsion in the agreement. That way the agreement can stand up in the courtroom. An agreement with coercion added, couldn't (unless government is the beneficiary in that court, of course - there is always that exception, since the courts belong to government).

Maybe a better word would be "acquiescence"? It does not so much imply we are going along voluntarily.
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Offline SunDog

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Re: The 11 Principles of Open Source Peaceful Evolution
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2009, 03:48:59 PM »

There is however something that I can certainly do now that I've reached the other end of the working life equation.  And I can know for a certainty that it is not only within principle but won't get my head bashed in.  I can refuse to RECEIVE their stolen money.  I can refuse to rob my children to pad my golden years.  When you ask what IS right, that is the answer.


There is more to theft than receiving stolen money, Vince. Do you drive on a public road? Then you are receiving stolen goods by your definition that taxes equal theft. The road was paved with tax funds. And public sidewalks - in my area, the landowners are "extorted" to provide them for  public use, by law, at the landowners expense. If you walk on them, you are receiving the benefit of that extortion. And if you live anywhere in the U.S., you are very likely to be living on land that, somewhere along the chain of title, was taken by force from the possessor of the moment.

Considering how much scorn the "FRN" receives in libertarian circles as "not really money," I am surprised at how resolved they are not to receive it at the hands of the government that prints it. And yet, they willingly partake of so many of the little benefits that government provides.

I certainly do. And I don't feel bad about it. But I do feel the government has placed unsustainable demands on the producers in society. I want to help them see the mistake, and I want to reverse the trend. But Vince, people like you who give (under duress, I admit) and refuse to take are just the kind of people the government needs to make the current system go on and on.

Chris

Offline MamaLiberty

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Re: The 11 Principles of Open Source Peaceful Evolution
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2009, 03:49:29 PM »
Nope, I don't "acquiesce" either.  And I've got about 55 years of heel drag prints in the sand to prove it.  >:D

I so what must be done to survive, but certainly no more.

Why else do you think so many people consider me contrary and ornery?  :P
It's not that people are dumber, it's that stupidity used to be more painful.