Author Topic: The 300! The 1st 300 FSW Moving Members  (Read 42867 times)

Offline Boston

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Re: The 300! The 1st 300 FSW Moving Members
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2009, 08:40:59 AM »
Quote
I think that having people have to sign up to use the forum lowers the Wyoming numbers too. It's not like it's protecting any information, anyone can make a sockpuppet, and even pledge, to get full views of all users' info (Hell, I moved to Wyoming, and I still can't view my friends' profiles on here!). But having to sign up just to read stuff, and (having to pledge to edit your own typos) comes off as a little off-putting to newcommers. Might be time to take a look at that policy, if more movers really is a goal.
MWD, I see your point, but, as you describe, if it's that easy to sign up with ulterior motives,
then it's just as easy to sign up if somebody's for real. 

What little formality to forum registration that remains, I like.

Boston

Offline baldeagle

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Re: The 300! The 1st 300 FSW Moving Members
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2009, 08:23:42 PM »
Do we really need a body count?  Some can make the move easier than  others.  I cannot physically move there till spring/summer 2010.  Any Ideas of a good town that would welcome a self-employed gunsmith?  Hot Springs County appeals to me.  I was born on a state bordering eastern Wyoming and would like to move further west then Crook,Weston, Niobrara, Goshen

Offline Rich

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Re: The 300! The 1st 300 FSW Moving Members
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2009, 08:51:34 PM »
Welcome! No we don't need a body count... Just Critical Mass! Don't really care how we get there, just
so we do...

Love to have you in Weston, but go where your heart tells you is right...

Look around, drive around, find a home.
Glad to have you anywhere in Wyoming!

Rich
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Offline dr1best

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Re: The 300! The 1st 300 FSW Moving Members
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2009, 09:48:17 PM »
Sometimes, when we give birth to a new child, we think of it as are own. We want to hold on, sometimes too tightly, for fear it my not become what we had in mind for it to be. But the child grows into it's own, becomes what it will. Hopefully shaped by our ideals, not bound by them.
It's a honor to see the child grow, the seed is planted, roots bound to the same soil.
And what the child becomes. What glory.
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Offline maxxoccupancy

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Re: The 300! The 1st 300 FSW Moving Members
« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2009, 11:29:13 AM »
There are many folks out there for whom the decision to move depends on some assuring that they are joining a large and growing group.  FSP New Hampshire has had media, ads, outreach, and "The Counter."  Despite my conviction that Wyoming was a better choice (too bad I moved to New Hampshire right off the bat, not knowing much about the western alliance) and that it would bring in more people, there has been nearly constant high profile outreach in New Hampshire (and media attention) for six years, resulting in hundreds of new movers and about 1500 locals who have joined up.

We have found that these are effective tools for getting new people in, and I believe that the New Hampshire project has already passed critical mass.  I.e., it would continue to grow and succeed even if the earliest movers dropped out or moved on.  To the contrary, the early movers are actually getting more active at recruiting even more folks.  The rate of growth has actually increased, and this is driving even more interest in the project, causing the whole thing to snowball.

There are also solid arguments for not wanting to have "a census," but the Wyoming effort not only gives up people who would move because of a counter, but all of the folks that they would talk to and recruit.  I'm not sure which choice is better for Wyoming, but the worst thing, IMO, would be to have half the folks set up some kind of counter or pledgebank effort, while the other half refuse to sign up on principle, thereby giving the world the false impression that the movement is half its size.  The best solution, in my opinion, is to try to build some kind of consensus around a strategy (or a few), and to get as many people as possible behind that recruiting effort.

Up to you, but that's how we do things back east.  BTW, I'm currently back in the Seattle area, and it is definitely easier recruiting for Wyoming than New Hampshire out here.
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Offline rhodges

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Re: The 300! The 1st 300 FSW Moving Members
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2009, 12:12:28 PM »
There are many folks out there for whom the decision to move depends on some assuring that they are joining a large and growing group. 

I think you just made an insightful point here.  It seems that these people feel the need for some kind of social contract.  As you say, they won't do it alone.  To me, it almost sounds as if they are city people.  To be fair, they are freedom-loving people also.

Quote
... but the Wyoming effort not only gives up people who would move because of a counter,

If someone needs a counter or a social contract before he or she does "the right thing", it does not seem to me that this person really has strong convictions about anything.

Quote
...but the worst thing, IMO, would be to have half the folks set up some kind of counter or pledgebank effort, while the other half refuse to sign up on principle,

I will certainly not sign up on some pledge tracking web site.  I suspect that the FSP movers resonate well with all the organization and social networking of the FSP.   But it does not resonate with me.
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Offline MichaelNotMike

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Re: The 300! The 1st 300 FSW Moving Members
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2009, 12:30:49 PM »

If someone needs a counter or a social contract before he or she does "the right thing", it does not seem to me that this person really has strong convictions about anything.


I second that. Strongly.

For what it's worth, I spend a lot of time on the New Hampshire site, probably as much as I spend here. 

They have a lot of good stuff happening, but also have more problems, more arguing (in person too, not just online, from what they discuss online) than FSW seems to, and I think it's because of the numbers.

Growth comes with its own set of issues.

Just something to consider.

MWD
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Offline maxxoccupancy

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Re: The 300! The 1st 300 FSW Moving Members
« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2009, 10:42:44 PM »
Hmmmmmm....  What would an event like Burning Man or the Tenth Amendment march on 9/12 be if you didn't know that others would be there?  Maybe that's a bad example, but quite a few folks looked at both Wyoming and New Hampshire and actually came out east with the false belief that "no one" (or very few) were in Wyoming.  Unfortunately, some couldn't or wouldn't come out to New Hampshire, and so dropped out and ended up getting involved with other things.

I would rather folks move to one of the two big states--or at least got involved with a free county project somewhere.  Our biggest pool of prospective movers are folks who seem to have lost faith in the liberty movement.  Honestly, how many American patriots would have signed up to fight the American Revolution if they thought that only a handful of folks were getting involved.  Those who risked their lives for independence were not less committed to liberty because they were waiting for a real effort with a real chance to fight against British tyranny.  Larger numbers attract more people, while those new people help recruit others.  Most people who've heard of the western effort continue to operate under the belief that just a tiny handful of people are out in Wyoming, and I have no proof whatsoever to dissuade them from that notion.

This is all I have to say on the matter.
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Offline Rich

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Re: The 300! The 1st 300 FSW Moving Members
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2009, 10:33:09 AM »
Well Max,

I guess I don't know what to say other than the fact That I can with near certainty
say we have AT Least 100 Movers, many if not most, I can name off the top of my head.
And more on the way. Not to mention the # of earlier mover /Natives here.

And if they they are serious enough to consider moving, have them come to the Freedom Expo
in June, and see and talk to us themselves.

I don't have any other traction on the other methods at the moment.

Rich
"There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know."  "Sec Def Rumsfeldt"

Offline kylben

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Re: The 300! The 1st 300 FSW Moving Members
« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2009, 11:10:05 AM »
There are many folks out there for whom the decision to move depends on some assuring that they are joining a large and growing group. 

I think you just made an insightful point here.  It seems that these people feel the need for some kind of social contract.  As you say, they won't do it alone.  To me, it almost sounds as if they are city people.  To be fair, they are freedom-loving people also.


As I said before, the core orientation behind that is one of the things I'm looking to get away from. I'm not saying that anyone for whom that is a consideration is a worthless sheep, but as a general rule, it indicates, as rhodges said, at least a weak commitment if it is the primary consideration.  I do want there to be a strong social underpinning that I can both count on and contribute to, but I've thought long and hard about whether I would move there even if I didn't know anyone, had never heard of the FSW (or if it disappeared one day), and I think I still would. The FSW makes it easier and more appealing, and adds another dimension of purpose, but it is not a make-or-break issue.

Maxx, you have to understand, the Wyoming effort places a lot less emphasis on numbers than NH does. It's not unimportant, but neither is it the singular overriding factor. The reason Wyoming was chosen - at least the reason I chose it - is that it is already to a large extent the kind of place I want to be. It can be better, but that betterment doesn't rely on only sheer numbers in the same way NH does.  In NH, my sense of it is that the social aspects are an outgrowth of the numbers game, important, but secondary.  In WY, I think it is just the opposite, the numbers game is built on the social underpinning.  As a result, indiscriminate number building is not nearly so helpful, and might actually hamper success.

That's not to say that the FSW has some secret handshake and vetting process that seeks to actively keep people out, it's just that Wyoming is the kind of place that self-selects for a certain kind of person, and the FSW works with that rather than trying to push back against it.

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Offline Rich

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Re: The 300! The 1st 300 FSW Moving Members
« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2009, 12:54:34 PM »
Kylben, Then WHY do we even Have a forum and WHAT IS our mission Purpose HERE?

Not YOURS, But the FSW as a whole.

If I am not mistaken it IS to encourage freedom loving folks to move here and help provide
a bulwark against statist CO,CA,etc...Movers... to help prevent what has happened elsewhere.
Such as CO. and to some extent MT.

And you Know I came BEFORE The FSW or The FSP for that matter.

WHY is it so hard for you to want to Promote or would you just like to wait till its too late.

Whether you like it or not the BS is coming here, hell of lot easier to stop it now then TRY
to Reverse it after the fact, and we need help to do so.

"What is the goal of Free State Wyoming?
To encourage, assist, and reward the migration of liberty-minded Americans to Wyoming in order to maintain and further its relative laissez-faire Western culture; to eventually enjoy a haven for those Americans who desire not to live as, or under, government supremacists."

It appears your posistion is out of sync. with the stated mission goals.

Maybe I'm wrong here but, demonstrating that this IS a viable movement furthers the cause and NO
it's not just a #s game but it is supposed to be a movement, and there has been some success here.
That does help people Justify the heavy commitment of moving.
 You don't promote growth by going SHHHH. Quiet.... were moving to Wyoming, keep it under your hat...

Rich

« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 01:06:18 PM by Rich »
"There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know."  "Sec Def Rumsfeldt"

Offline kylben

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Re: The 300! The 1st 300 FSW Moving Members
« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2009, 02:11:34 PM »
It appears your posistion is out of sync. with the stated mission goals.

I also remember something in the mission goals about, and I'm paraphrasing from memory, encouraging people of "good moral character" to move to Wyoming.  There's nothing wrong about wanting to smoke a doobie in downtown Keene at a 420 rally (and I'd probably join them if I was there, even though I haven't 'partaken' for probably twenty years now), but do you think that wanting to do so automatically means someone is of "good moral character"? I'm trying to get across to maxx what I see as the difference in approach in the idea of numbers in and of themselves between Wyoming and NH.  I didn't mean to give the impression that I spoke for you or for the FSW, and I'm sorry if I was too sloppy in my wording and left that impression.

Numbers are important, and I'm not afraid to promote Wyoming.  I've talked to a lot of people about it, both in person and online. I'm anything but quiet about it.  I can't reach the numbers that maybe you do, or that Boston and others do, but I do talk it up to people.  But I also realize that the majority of those people will never take it seriously.  Those looking for a quick fix won't be interested in Wyoming.  Those looking to maintain their accustomed lifestyle would never consider Wyoming.  Those who aren't really committed to liberty beyond one or two pet issues won't be interested in Wyoming.  I'm OK with that.  I don't discourage them, or try to exclude them, but I realize it is usually just a fantasy they might indulge for a few minutes before moving on to more "practical" things they have to worry about.

I'm also up front about Wyoming's "relative laissez-faire Western culture" and what that might mean to somebody who is considering moving.  I have to admit, it is somewhat foreign to me, too, but I am willing and eager to adapt myself to it rather than try and adapt Wyoming to my lifestyle.  Again, I don't try to use that to discourage people, I talk up the positive aspects of it, but it's a culture that's not for everybody.  The last thing I want is to convince somebody to move there and have them either hate it, (and by extension distrust both me and any freedom movement they might encounter in the future), or worse, accelerate the BS that we all know is coming Wyoming's way by being unable to leave it back where they came from.

I don't know how out of sync I am with the mission goals, as I am not privy to the planning that you and others have worked so hard at.  I am certainly not trying to undermine it by keeping people out of Wyoming. I'm just trying to get maxx, and others to see that in Wyoming it is a far deeper thing than simply numbers.  Much of what he suggests is useful, but also some of it tends towards looking at numbers to the exclusion of the rest of it. The pledge registry is going over like a lead balloon, not surprisingly.  But there are aspects of the idea that could be useful and productive if we can tease them out.  To the extent I have any goals in this area, or think I might have any influence, it would be to try to figure out how to adapt some of the ideas used in NH to the different needs of a Wyoming movement.  It is not to discourage or ignore the issues of numbers, but to find ways to pursue numbers that are in keeping with a laissez-faire and individualist western culture as opposed to a more group oriented eastern culture. If maxx and other FSP'ers understood the difference, they might be more able to help us figure out how to adapt the methods that have worked for them.


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Offline Rich

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Re: The 300! The 1st 300 FSW Moving Members
« Reply #42 on: October 03, 2009, 02:29:45 PM »
I accept that, and if I came across as being harsh I apologize.

How ever we do need Some % to help stem the statist movements afoot even now.

I see nothing wrong with some statement of some official # of members in Wyoming
even if vague.

Even so simple as come join well over xxx members in Wyoming with many more on the way.

If nothing else to let folks know that this IS a Viable movement and not *Just* "internet chatter"
with no actual results...

Would that not be acceptable to most here?

Just to say yes it is real and not just a forum board.

Rich
"There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know."  "Sec Def Rumsfeldt"

Offline maxxoccupancy

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Re: The 300! The 1st 300 FSW Moving Members
« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2009, 03:35:11 PM »
In New Hampshire, we just say let those who want to sign up sign up.  If they want to sign up anonymously, so be it.  If some folks don't want to be counted, then that's fine, and it's not our place to tell them so.

I've worked very hard getting the word out about these two state efforts.  The problem, on the west coast, is that New Hampshire may as well be Antartica, and that Wyoming is largely believed to be an unsuccessful movement of perhaps a dozen or so individuals, with no growth or activity out there.  I know plenty of people who are just as committed to liberty who are as likely to move to Alaska, Montana, Idaho, rural Nevada--or even leave the country.  Because someone moves overseas in pursuit of freedom (not realizing that there is a robust movement in Wyoming and New Hampshire), does that mean that their commitment to freedom is any less?  Believing there to be no credible migration alternatives, many continue to pursue local activism and educational efforts.  Does this mean that they are less committed to liberty?  If many folks feel that the whole effort is hopeless, does that mean that they could never join a growing, vibrant movement and become a superactivist themselves?

In New Hampshire, many people  even migrate to other towns that appear to have an established based of freestaters, already.  Seeing the numbers of movers in various towns, folks get excited and decide to channel their efforts into a move--something that they would not have if they thought that they'd arrive alone. "The Counter" is New Hampshire's biggest recruiting tool, and some of our best activists were despondent folks who said that, when they saw that counter going up every other day, they just got too excited, dropped everything, and moved out.  If they would not move out and join what they now believe is a "dead movement," but will pack up everything and come out west when they see how much is going on in Wyoming, are they not an addition to the effort?  If many are already busting their butts in their home state for freedom, are they unimportant to the liberty effort?
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Offline Rafi

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Re: The 300! The 1st 300 FSW Moving Members
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2009, 03:45:35 PM »
Let's face it, most people are followers, even freedom-loving people.  Some people will not make the move unless they see some growth in the numbers who have moved or committed to move to wyoming. They need to see it or believe it. How is that done?