Greetings, how is the electron flow?

[Guy Daley]

Hello all, prospective FSW member checking in from MN. I grew up in ND and enjoyed the life style and politics of the area, unfortunately the job market i chose (wind energy, don't judge, i just enjoy power/substation engineering) took me all across the country in 6 month stints, finally accepting a promotion and settlng in MN very recently. As I started paying attention to the local politics, i quickly realized that this place offends me and while the rural areas are okay, they are quickly sliding the wrong direction. In short, i am on the verge of settling here, buying a house, and attempting to start a family and i am having second thoughts.

Now on to the meat and potatoes, I have a pretty good background in the wind industry, spending the last five years working for the largest wind turbine construction company in the states. I stared as a field engineer, but worked my way up to electrical superintendent within a year and subsequently ending up now in a position as an engineering and operation manager. I enjoy the work and would be most qualified to continue in the same vein, but the whole subsidized industry continues to rub me the wrong way. What is the climate for that type of work, both within the FSW and in the Wyoming economy?

There are quite a few paths I could take (master electrician in mn and taking my mn professional engineer test in october, which could transfer after a year by reciprocity), but I do enjoy the work and switching fields would undoubtably mean a cut in pay, i suppose conversely it would also mean freedom from an industry that is heavily dependant on the whims of the government.

Either way, glad to finally make my first post and hear from you folks.

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Sounds like you are a PERFECT match for what Wyoming has to offer.  Southern Wyoming has quite a few wind farms.  Arlington (along I-80) has one of the highest average wind speeds of any place in the US AND south of Rawlins they are planning a titanic wind farm.  They are in the process of getting all their permits and should be starting in 2012.  They've held several community meetings already.  No idea why, virtually nobody lives out there.  In conjunction with the wind farm, they are building a big substation AND a big power line leading to CO? or NV, can't remember which. 

I agree with one poster.  Work for one of the big wind energy firms and help/start your own small business on the side. 

One thing that most people are forgetting when it comes to wind energy is that we are having constant rate increases.  Across the nation the utilities have been bending over customers with 15% increases and more.  So its hard to compute the ROI when rate increases are coming so frequently. 

That's one thing we have in abundance in southern Wyoming - wind, (also wind carried garbage, did you know the plastic bag was the state flower?)

[kylben]

did you know the plastic bag was the state flower?)

Hah!  I thought it was the state bird.

If you want the independence but don't mind having to turn off one thing before you turn on the next, or wait until the next sunny warm day to do your laundry, then great.

Here's the thing...  I don't see that as being a natural dichotomy - either independent and completely disconnected from the world and living like a relative primitive, or connected, modern, and subsumed into the collective.  Sure, we pretty much only have those two choices at present. The only way out of the system is to go it mostly alone.  But it doesn't have to be that way.  One of the things I see as a big benefit of "concentrating" people who want more independence is that they can build an interdependent network.  Not collectivized, not one for all and all for one, but also not isolated and alone. and with only what you can make with your own hands  Instead, self-sufficient in the sense that one makes or trades for what he needs, but trades honestly, without all the collective restraints about "our" resources and a "social contract" that forces us to sacrifice to our neighbor instead of helping him out. 

It's not going to happen overnight, and for now we each have to choose what level we want to be in or out of the system, but the potential is there.  Humanity built civilization from the caves once, we can build it again, from the depths of this collectivist pit we've all been thrown into.

[Terence]

One of the things I see as a big benefit of "concentrating" people who want more independence is that they can build an interdependent network.  Not collectivized, not one for all and all for one, but also not isolated and alone. and with only what you can make with your own hands  Instead, self-sufficient in the sense that one makes or trades for what he needs, but trades honestly, without all the collective restraints about "our" resources and a "social contract" that forces us to sacrifice to our neighbor instead of helping him out. 

It's not going to happen overnight, and for now we each have to choose what level we want to be in or out of the system, but the potential is there.

Another breath of fresh air, Kylben.  Your recent posts hint at, or describe directly, the core of human abundance.

The magic of the algebra is that all of the objects are unquantifiable yet the relationships are undeniable; evidence of the agora unseen.

Terence

[manfromnevada]

GD said,
One thing that most people are forgetting when it comes to wind energy is that we are having constant rate increases.  Across the nation the utilities have been bending over customers with 15% increases and more.  So its hard to compute the ROI when rate increases are coming so frequently.


Actually, it's easy to factor a 15% annual cost increase into ROI calculations. Nobody knows the future, but certain estimates can be made. But also remember that some of these increases are caused by government MANDATES that require utilities to BUY "alternative" energy even though it is more expensive. I don't think the cost of coal has gone up much, if any.

"Under my plan, electricity rates will necessarily skyrocket." (Obama)

And Kylben is right about a community utility. I know a couple of friends whose development has a community well and they all pay an annual fee to maintain it. I guess the same could be done with a larger wind turbine although you'd still have the problem of storage. There is still no practical electrical storage systems for large energy amounts.

Mac

[kylben]

There is still no practical electrical storage systems for large energy amounts.

The molten salt battery technology looks promising, and is beyond the lab stage, but not quite to the commercial stage - though they claim to have all the kinks worked out and that its just a matter of gearing up plant to produce them.  I've glanced at the concept, and it seems somewhat amenable to a DIY effort, as well. The basic idea, as I understand it, is that salts (not NaCl, or at least not only that) heated to their melting point (something like 3X water boiling point, I think) ionizes them such that they can store charge in large amounts for long periods of time by chemically recombining with the other materials, and are easily "stackable".  How they are brought to temperature, and if they have to remain molten after being charged, I'm not clear on. They're supposed to be much safer and less toxic than lead-acid, while also having higher capacity, though they are probably not useful for small, portable applications like cell phones.

The community utility idea, I was mainly thinking of those coal generator boxes, but any generating tech could be done in that way.

[manfromnevada]

As I said, There is still no practical electrical storage systems for large energy amounts.

The problem with electrical energy is that it must be produced at the instant it is required, quite unlike a tank of propane, a pile of coal, a cord of wood.

Electrical generation by turbines using coal, oil, gas, nuclear, and even hydro produces it on the fly, as is required, moment by moment.
Solar and wind are by their nature sporadic, variable, and unpredictable, and perhaps totally unavailable at times in various areas.

That makes them problematic since they are not reliable. If you don't have a grid system to back you up then you need more and more storage and expense to get you over the dead periods. How many days of cloud cover or calm days can you afford to bridge? Two? Three?

Just as there is a value to being independent and "off grid", there is a value to having reliable and near limitless electrical energy at your fingertips without worrying about sequencing your appliances or how many more windless days are forecasted.

It all depends on what happens in the future. If all hell breaks loose and the entire electrical infrastructure fails, then the guy with his own wind/energy system will be king of the hill. On the other hand, if all continues pretty much as it has, then buying electricity from your local utility for 5.5 cents per KW-Hr and not having a concern about investment or maintenance comes out on top.

Who knows?

Mac

[Terence]

It all depends on what happens in the future. If all hell breaks loose and the entire electrical infrastructure fails, then the guy with his own wind/energy system will be king of the hill. On the other hand, if all continues pretty much as it has, then buying electricity from your local utility for 5.5 cents per KW-Hr and not having a concern about investment or maintenance comes out on top.

So, let's say you're already hooked up to the local utility for electric and you'd like to setup a modest backup 'off-grid' solution.
Narrowing the scope to electricity is there a current alt form that makes sense?   Let's assume that the property in question
has whatever resources/inputs necessary for the system proposed (Wind if wind is needed, wood if wood is needed,
a source of coal if that's needed, etc.).

Terence

[Dennis Wilson]

setup a modest backup 'off-grid' solution.

What is more modest than a Honda generator that can be fueled by gasoline and/or propane?

[kylben]

is there a current alt form that makes sense? 

I don't think there is one single "killer app", it depends on what you need and what's available where you are at. A couple of things though, "alternative" energy isn't so much the important thing (in my thinking at least), but off-grid.  It's just that most of the off-grid options also happen to be alternative technologies, though crappie's coal-in-a-box could have some potential, and it is anything but "alternative".  Also, not all of your energy needs have to be provided by electricity.  There are lots of off-grid options for things like heating and cooling that never need wires.  Franklin stoves, geothermal, etc.  There's even some cooling "technology" that's been used in the middle-east and asia for many centuries that involves burying blocks of ice in the winter, and through ingenious home construction keeps the house cool most of the summer.  Then there's gas.  Lots of ways to produce that, especially if you're willing to recycle everything you produce in the way of waste. Some places in Africa use their cattle waste for natural gas for cooking and heating.  People use composting to generate heat (and good soil) for their greenhouses in winter.

We're a bit spoiled by the grid into thinking that all of our home energy has to come through wires, but there's a ton of room for thinking outside that box. Say what you will about hippies, greenies, and their fellow travelers, there's a lot to learn from their websites about doing things like this in a "rugged individualism" and off-grid way, no matter how whacked-out their motives for wanting to might be.

[manfromnevada]

Dennis' suggestion of a propane powered generator makes sense. There are conversion kits for many generators to switch from gasoline to propane. At least that way you can have 500 or 1K gallons of energy already stored on site.

This works for short to moderate interruptions in the power system, but there's no way to create propane on site. It would have to be replenished when it ran out.

Every methodology has its scope. Some work well under certain conditions with short interruption (like me using grid power and a gasoline generator), others work better for longer interruptions, and still others work for the other extreme (no grid at all). I don't think there's a perfect "size that fits all".

Mac

[kylben]

This site might be helpful. I'm not that familiar with it, but I hear good things.

http://homepower.com/home/

[manfromnevada]

That site is the typical greenie energy site. Even had a "great" article on a hybrid cars. Fantastic!
Their business is to promote alternative energy. Look at their sponsors.

Mac

[kylben]

That site is the typical greenie energy site.

Yes it is.  But as I said above, if you strip out the political and social wackiness, those greenies and the like have some good concrete information. Even they are forced to concede the laws of physics and what it takes to apply them. There's no "green" science, there's just science and not science. I'm sure that site has a mix of both, but I'm happy to leverage their watermelon research, technology, and experience to help with my capitalism.

[Terence]

setup a modest backup 'off-grid' solution.

What is more modest than a Honda generator that can be fueled by gasoline and/or propane?

That's funny, Dennis: Between the time I posted that question and saw your answer I was starting
up just such a backup generator. I've been bad about regular non-emergency start-ups and was
reprimanded by a friend, recently, about that!

Terence