Greetings, how is the electron flow?

[shattenjagger]

Hello all, prospective FSW member checking in from MN. I grew up in ND and enjoyed the life style and politics of the area, unfortunately the job market i chose (wind energy, don't judge, i just enjoy power/substation engineering) took me all across the country in 6 month stints, finally accepting a promotion and settlng in MN very recently. As I started paying attention to the local politics, i quickly realized that this place offends me and while the rural areas are okay, they are quickly sliding the wrong direction. In short, i am on the verge of settling here, buying a house, and attempting to start a family and i am having second thoughts.

Now on to the meat and potatoes, I have a pretty good background in the wind industry, spending the last five years working for the largest wind turbine construction company in the states. I stared as a field engineer, but worked my way up to electrical superintendent within a year and subsequently ending up now in a position as an engineering and operation manager. I enjoy the work and would be most qualified to continue in the same vein, but the whole subsidized industry continues to rub me the wrong way. What is the climate for that type of work, both within the FSW and in the Wyoming economy?

There are quite a few paths I could take (master electrician in mn and taking my mn professional engineer test in october, which could transfer after a year by reciprocity), but I do enjoy the work and switching fields would undoubtably mean a cut in pay, i suppose conversely it would also mean freedom from an industry that is heavily dependant on the whims of the government.

Either way, glad to finally make my first post and hear from you folks.

int ro to fsw int ro to fsw Saved seconds ago Saved seconds ago Refresh

[FDNYLiberty]

Welcome!

MN is (as RICH would say) known as "Minne-socialist" 

I would consider that you move to WY and use your knowledge and talents by becoming a windmill generator (small style for home / farm use) salesperson or even opening your own business as an independent distributor/installer.

In any case, welcome to the forum.

FDNYLiberty

[Dani]

Hello, Shat.  I am new, too, and just wanted to check out the latest posts.  By the sound of it and the aim of the group, your line of work would be perfect (if I am understanding correctly).  Just as the previous poster put, specializing it for private use, especially for regular individuals, would be great and it would really cut down on government reliance.  Even if it is expensive, payments could be made based on the amount of money saved each month using the new energy system.  (My father and I discussed this once, only we were focused on solar energy.)

By the way, how does wind energy compare?  It is difficult to find information on it that does not seem biased for or against it.

[shattenjagger]

Wind energy is a far cry better than solar in terms of economic return, especially in a place like wyoming where it blows a lot and often. Unfortunately, you are still talking about a minimum of ten years till payoff, and that is with some battery storage of some sort. For people who wish to get off the grid it is an exciting alternative, but hard work, innovation in implementation, and a decent chunk of starting capital is required.

The commercial side is quite a bit more lucrative, but the starting capital is even higher, plus the added stress of securing purchase agreements with the local utility.

I have been mainly looking on the comercial side for work, but I will do some more research into the small wind market in wyoming and see what the possibilities look like. Additionally, it is always interesting to see how local regulations and zoning have influenced wind devolopment and how the local utilities have handled interconnection.

Thanks for pointing me in a new direction Dani and FDNYliberty

ps Minnie-socialist is pretty right on 

[kylben]

That new molten salt battery technology has the potential to make wind far more viable, by allowing greater time-shifting of use vs generation. Maybe even make it more viable for home/DIY use served by local entrepreneurs.

[shattenjagger]

You are correct, but much of that technology is pretty bleeding edge for the time being. And while there are some new models that are running at cooler temperatures, the last stats I remember seeng when we bid a solar project last year was somewhere around 300deg C. Something to consider when installing in a home. Pretty decent efficency in terms of thermal storage, only around 1% loss, but they lose more than that if you consider converting from electric energy, to thermal, then back to electric.

We are currently using some on a concentrated solar project, it would be interesting to see some data when they finish (unfortunately not for a couple years, i think).

Junkyard storage techniques are somewhat popular, go find some old farm equipment that still has batteries and use those, or perhaps a pumped water storage (a la gravity battery), if you have the land with a couple diferent elevation ponds.

[kylben]

Shat,

The molten salt stuff I saw was electrolytic storage, not thermal. The molten part was to keep it fluid and ionized... or something like that.  I read that MIT, who developed it, expects commercial application as soon as next year.  We might be talking about two different things, I'm not sure, but you're probably more in touch with it than I am.

I've always thought I want to just build a giant multi-ton flywheel on magnetic bearings and use that for energy storage. 

[manfromnevada]

Here's my humble opinion.
Most of these "alternative energy" systems are simply scams. Boondoggles. etc.
ALL are manufactured and used ONLY because of government "rebates", "credits", and "incentives".
None would exist without the taxpayer supporting it.
(OK, perhaps some veerrry small percentage where someone lives 50 miles from the nearest line.)

If you took away the taxpayer's contribution all of these companies (manufacturers and installers) would dry up and float away.

Sadly, none of them can compete with the cost to the customer for "conventional fuels" such as coal, gas, or nuclear.

There is nothing cheaper than Wyoming coal for producing energy, 24/7, day or night, calm or windy. No storage required. The sun's energy is already stored in the fuel from millions of years ago. And using the technology available today with scrubbers and such, the pollution becomes less and less every year.

But as Obama said:
"Under MY plan, electricity rates will necessarily skyrocket."
He's talking about alternative energy here, and Tax and Trade of course.

Here's my bottom line: If someone designs a wind or solar system without government handouts, if someone then builds that system without government handouts, if someone installs and maintains that system without government handouts, and if someone can produce energy, 24/7 with that system at a competitive rate, then GREAT! Go for it! I'm on board!

Until then, it's a scam. Like ethanol.

Mac
BTW, the retail rate for residential electricity here in Crook County with Powder River Energy is $0.055/KW-Hr. They don't produce the energy, they just distribute it. Much of our energy comes out of Gillette from the Dry Creek and Wyodak plants. In fact, they're having the grand opening of the new Dry Creek coal fired power plant on August 11, just north of Gillette.

[kylben]

I'm interested in at-home alternatives from a resiliency POV, not because I give the slightest darn about "conserving the nation's energy resources" or any BS like that.  Resiliency considerations are threefold, keeping in mind that all public utilities are state subsidized, price controlled, and enforced monopolies/oligopolies just as much as alternative is, though the balance is fluid.

First, the normal causes of disruption, storms, downed lines, natural disaster, etc.

Second: regulatory risk, which includes everything from price spikes and shortages and planned brownouts to getting my door kicked in in the middle of the night because my bitcoin mining rig used too many kilowatts and they thought I was growing pot (has already happened to at least one person). Not to mention things like "smart thermostats" controlled by the power company, and other such throttling/rationing schemes.

Third, the usual TSHTF risks.

I'm willing to pay a somewhat higher cost to mitigate some of those risks.

I have no intention of giving up the grid until there's no choice, but I wouldn't mind having backup, and maybe a way to defer costs if that becomes feasible (it's not now except on long timeframes with substantial up front investment, and even that is marginal).  Plus, I'm just fascinated by the science of it, it could be a fun hobby.

Yes, ethanol is probably the single most fallacious and disastrously dangerous of all the energy scams out there.

[Crappiewy]

Coal. Mans best friend. $35 per ton. You can even get buckwheat size for free in many places as long as you haul it away. It works well in pellet stoves.

[FDNYLiberty]

Coal. Mans best friend. $35 per ton. You can even get buckwheat size for free in many places as long as you haul it away. It works well in pellet stoves.

Yes, I agree CrappieWy.  But only "if" you can "haul it away." While obviously abundant in WY, during an emergency or other SHTF situation, you may not have any gasoline available for your truck to go and get it miles away. 

What we seem to be discussing and suggesting here is homestaed "backup" energy sources (solar/ wind / other) for emergency or grid down situations. I believe that there is a market for either this persons knowledge and/ or experience to guide or advise any interested parties on the types and use of available systems found available on the market for non-commercial (which is regulated) use. To hell with the gooberment "credits and rebates", I for one don't really give a hoot about that.  But what I do care about, in this case, is being able to talk to someone who can best advise me on how to do what I want to do as far as a home alternative energy system. I beleive that this individual can offer such advise, and hope he makes full use of this knowledge and talent.

FDNYLiberty

[FDNYLiberty]

Correction to my previous post. The statement "(which is regulated)" sholud be  "(which may be non-regulated)"

[Crappiewy]

Coal. Mans best friend. $35 per ton. You can even get buckwheat size for free in many places as long as you haul it away. It works well in pellet stoves.

Yes, I agree CrappieWy.  But only "if" you can "haul it away." While obviously abundant in WY, during an emergency or other SHTF situation, you may not have any gasoline available for your truck to go and get it miles away. 

What we seem to be discussing and suggesting here is homestaed "backup" energy sources (solar/ wind / other) for emergency or grid down situations. I believe that there is a market for either this persons knowledge and/ or experience to guide or advise any interested parties on the types and use of available systems found available on the market for non-commercial (which is regulated) use. To hell with the gooberment "credits and rebates", I for one don't really give a hoot about that.  But what I do care about, in this case, is being able to talk to someone who can best advise me on how to do what I want to do as far as a home alternative energy system. I beleive that this individual can offer such advise, and hope he makes full use of this knowledge and talent.

FDNYLiberty

Run your truck on coal too.

[kylben]

And it makes a great Christmas gift for that politician in your life.

[Paul Bonneau]

Here's my bottom line: If someone designs a wind or solar system without government handouts, if someone then builds that system without government handouts, if someone installs and maintains that system without government handouts, and if someone can produce energy, 24/7 with that system at a competitive rate, then GREAT! Go for it! I'm on board!

Actually, the folks over at Home Power Magazine have been doing that for years, and they also hate the rebates and credits because the last time that happened (Carter regime?), it drew in a lot of scammers and made a black eye for the industry.

It's price competitive as long as you are far enough out in the boonies; miles of power poles tend to get expensive. There are other advantages like not being dependent on a centralized power company, although most in Wyoming seem to be smaller and localized, which is good.