Author Topic: Why the Focus on Survivalism?  (Read 10994 times)

Offline kylben

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Re: Why the Focus on Survivalism?
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2008, 11:21:17 AM »
Quote
The State will only lose it's power when the people choose to ignore it.  It's the legitimacy issue.

And, like Boston said, the focus on "survivalism", or rifle skills, is an insurance policy in the case of the State not taking kindly to being ignored.

That's exactly the difference between FSNH and FSW.  NH is trying to change the government.  WY, or at least what attracts me to WY (forgive me for speaking in terms of "we", it's mere expedience, all anti-collectivist caveats apply), is about each of us trying to change our own orientation to government in whatever form it exists.  That's why the focus on arms looks so threatening to NH, and to mainstream libertarians; the lens they see these things through is an attempt to change the government, so of course it looks like preparations for violent revolution.

And to us here on this side of the new Mason-Dixon line (formerly known as the Mississippi River), the NH/LP approach is viewed as being counter to the purpose, since a focus on political activism tends to reinforce one's government-centric orientation.

Both approaches seek to convince others as well, but the purpose in doing that is different as well.  The NH/LP approach relies on reaching a critical mass of people in order to achieve any of its goals. While the WY approach, essentially an agorist one, sees each additional person taking our view of things as incrementally increasing the network of friends, support, trading partners, information sources, etc, (and, only incidentally, voters) that helps to effectively live a less-government-centric orientation. 

I'm glad both approaches are being pursued.  Despite what we each see as the two working at cross-purposes, I believe the two approaches compliment each other. But ultimately, political activism will not solve the problem.  Nor will active or passive resistance alone, or violent overthrow, solve the problem. It is ultimately a question of how people view the their relationship to  government.  Both activism and arms serve the purpose of helping to protect the ability to live an orientation of self-sufficiency, but without that orientation coming first, nothing can protect individual freedom.

My sig sums up my thoughts on what is required for an real solution. 
Carpe Libertas!
An Agorist Manifesto in 95 Theses: http://www.humanadvancement.net/blog/index.php?itemid=247/

Offline citizen_142002

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Re: Why the Focus on Survivalism?
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2008, 12:18:07 PM »
I may have given an impression of what's going on here a in a tinted way. I'm a minarchist and so I focused on the inside the system examples. Two of the media sources I mentioned Free Talk Live and the New Hampshire Free Press were started by vehement Ancaps. Well Mark from Free Talk Live is a minarchist, but Ian's message of totally rejecting the state is definitely the one that carries through.

There are plenty of people here who completely reject the authority of anyone calling themselves the government. Russel Kanning has gone to jail here many times for not recognizing state authority and so has Lauren Canario.

There really is no group think in the FSP as some try to allege. There many different camps, and some of them disagree pretty strongly on the best way to eliminate/reduce the state. The LPNH doesn't seem to have benefited much from the early movers and I think that's because a lot of them take an outside the system apolitical approach. Plus it's not hard to for state rep as a Republican or Democrat and win. You can run on basically zero budget, so you don't have to stay on the party's good side.

I'm not trying to convince anyone to move to NH. I think Wyoming is a fine place for a free state, or free state-less society. I'm just trying to say that reaching out to the public and other sympathetic groups can help you get more movers. I've found that the greatest strength in the FSP is that there is such a diversity in what people are doing here, FSW might be able to benefit from that kind of diversity of thought and action.

The discussion has been pretty civil and I appreciate that, but a couple folks have seemed really angered that I'd dare to ask a simple question. My experience is that people who are confident and feel secure about what they're doing don't come off as angry, so most of you probably feel happy with whatever strategy you've got so stick with it.

One of the great things about freedom is that different people are able to handle things differently and others get to see what course of action seems most productive to them.

Offline MamaLiberty

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Re: Why the Focus on Survivalism?
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2008, 12:34:42 PM »
Quote
I'm just trying to say that reaching out to the public and other sympathetic groups can help you get more movers.

You really don't know what we are doing, and so have no basis for this statement as it is.

Quote
The discussion has been pretty civil and I appreciate that, but a couple folks have seemed really angered that I'd dare to ask a simple question.

If you were actually one of us, your question would be far more relevant. As it is, you are somewhat like a person who enters the home of another and immediately begins to criticize the building, the furniture and even the children. Those who live in that home could be forgiven for being less than enthusiastic about your comments in that situation, don't you think?
It's not that people are dumber, it's that stupidity used to be more painful.

Offline kylben

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Re: Why the Focus on Survivalism?
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2008, 01:17:29 PM »
I'm a minarchist and so I focused on the inside the system examples. Two of the media sources I mentioned Free Talk Live and the New Hampshire Free Press were started by vehement Ancaps.

There are plenty of people here who completely reject the authority of anyone calling themselves the government.

Being anti-state or not isn't what I was talking about, though that is part of it.  By orientation, I meant more the way you approach interaction with the state, and even with the world, whether you oppose or support it.  Think of it as an internal orientation vs an external one.  Trying to change the world, vs trying to change yourself to better deal with the world.  For instance, trying to preserve the external economic freedom to feed myself vs trying to acquire the ability to feed myself whether or not the freedom to use economic means to do so persists.

There really is no group think in the FSP as some try to allege.

I don't know if you mean me, but I'm not alleging it.  I'm aware of the diversity of political persuasion in NH.  I don't think there is much of a difference in orientation, though.  I could be wrong.

I'm just trying to say that reaching out to the public and other sympathetic groups can help you get more movers. 

I don't speak for FSW, but my impression of it, and the approach I hope is generally accepted, is not to get "more" movers, but to get quality movers.  To the extent that more are sought, it is not sought primarily from "converting" the general public, but in convincing and assisting those already so inclined to choose Wyoming.  Public "converts" are always a good thing, of course (assuming they really mean it), but again, here the difference is stark.  The NH orientation is outward, get more people "on our side" so that there is an effective group with which to effect change.  The WY approach is to carve out an effective niche of freedom and self-sufficiency so as to later attract more people to pile on - or not if that is what they choose.

Your approach sees people, including yourselves, as the means to a political end, my approach sees people, and myself, as the end to which all political activity is subservient.

I I've found that the greatest strength in the FSP is that there is such a diversity in what people are doing here, FSW might be able to benefit from that kind of diversity of thought and action.

I'd take offense at that, but I think it's not meant that way, rather is a reflection of your view of the world.  You see "diversity" in various approaches to pursuing external change, and lump all other pursuits under the same category of "not doing what we're doing".  I'd offer that what I've seen from FSW people, it is a far more diverse assembly.  Everyone is pursuing their own means to their own ends individually, no two are doing it exactly the same way. They cooperate and share when appropriate and mutually beneficial, but none subsume their means and ends to the means and ends of the group.  Yes, there's a plan, as elaborated in "Molon Labe", but that plan is both more comprehensive and detailed than the FSP plan, and more flexible in accommodating individual preferences, resources, and the transient nature of voluntary cooperation.  The NH approach, while perhaps not monolithic, still collects people into groups to pursue common ends with common means in an open-ended time frame.  That there are a multitude of such groups does not mean that there is more diversity overall.

The pushback you've seen here looks to me less like anger than a suspicion that causes people to avoid risking more than basic civility.  Your phrasing, such as demeaning an interest in arms and self-sufficiency under the mild epithet "survivalism", even if just a reflection of a different world view - and perhaps more so, if that is what it is - is enough to make some here wonder about your good intentions.

One of the great things about freedom is that different people are able to handle things differently and others get to see what course of action seems most productive to them.

I agree with that.  I believe we can and will each provide the other examples of methods, practices, and concrete results that can be educational.
Carpe Libertas!
An Agorist Manifesto in 95 Theses: http://www.humanadvancement.net/blog/index.php?itemid=247/

Offline socalserf

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Re: Why the Focus on Survivalism?
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2008, 02:31:07 PM »
Citizen-14002,
Have you been to Wyoming lately?

I suggest going out there and breathe the air of liberty.

There is some thing about the place that can't be understood from a distance.

Take a little drive this summer(and don't forget your Battle Rifle).




Offline Fran

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Re: Why the Focus on Survivalism?
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2008, 03:36:02 PM »
I may have given an impression of what's going on here a in a tinted way. I'm a minarchist and so I focused on the inside the system examples. Two of the media sources I mentioned Free Talk Live and the New Hampshire Free Press were started by vehement Ancaps. Well Mark from Free Talk Live is a minarchist, but Ian's message of totally rejecting the state is definitely the one that carries through.

There are plenty of people here who completely reject the authority of anyone calling themselves the government. Russel Kanning has gone to jail here many times for not recognizing state authority and so has Lauren Canario.

There really is no group think in the FSP as some try to allege. There many different camps, and some of them disagree pretty strongly on the best way to eliminate/reduce the state. The LPNH doesn't seem to have benefited much from the early movers and I think that's because a lot of them take an outside the system apolitical approach. Plus it's not hard to for state rep as a Republican or Democrat and win. You can run on basically zero budget, so you don't have to stay on the party's good side.

I'm not trying to convince anyone to move to NH. I think Wyoming is a fine place for a free state, or free state-less society. I'm just trying to say that reaching out to the public and other sympathetic groups can help you get more movers. I've found that the greatest strength in the FSP is that there is such a diversity in what people are doing here, FSW might be able to benefit from that kind of diversity of thought and action.

The discussion has been pretty civil and I appreciate that, but a couple folks have seemed really angered that I'd dare to ask a simple question. My experience is that people who are confident and feel secure about what they're doing don't come off as angry, so most of you probably feel happy with whatever strategy you've got so stick with it.

One of the great things about freedom is that different people are able to handle things differently and others get to see what course of action seems most productive to them.
Please spare us. Mark is a complete idiot and Ian isn't much better. Maybe you should open a new thread called "psychobabble and pot-stirrers" and you can all get lathered up by all the names for the subtle variations of liberty lovers that you know. Gosh, don't you get enough of that at the FSP forum? To me they are only varying degrees of enlightenment - or self-truth. At some point, you will realize that the government (all government) is designed to control by force. Those in government want power - always more power. Trying to change it is a noble (but futile) cause.
My tone is probably more uncivil than most of the FSW folks, but I am not apologizing for that. I don't care for your ideas, or your methods. I don't care for the FSP, or some of their methods. I want government to leave me alone, and I'd like you to leave me alone. As far as being angered about people asking a question... I wasn't angered. You can ask anything you like. But I will answer how ever I like - directly, bluntly, and honestly. If you don't like my answer, don't whine until I agree with you... just go someplace else where they do agree with you. Sometimes, it pays not to ask certain questions. You might try to figure the answer out for yourself. For instance, you shouldn't ask questions like: How much money do you make, where do you live, what is your SS#, how many guns do you have, how much food storage do you have, how can you believe in God, or have you ever cheated on your spouse? Most people have enough good manners and good sense not to ask such personal questions. I would put your initial question into that category. It IS a public forum, but it is really for meant for those in the FSW and those considering moving to WYO. If you notice, none of the FSW folks have asked the question or chimed in to agree with you. Regarding whether we are secure or insecure about the decisions we have made... try not to hurt yourself, Dr. Freud... A. It is none of your business and B. You sound like an imbecile trying to analyze someone based on such limited information.
I believe it is obvious to everyone that you are only a provocateur trying to bait us into ethereal discussions that “minarchist” <g> love to engage in. As I said earlier, I'm not interested in your games or suggestions. I'm not interested in your cracker jack psychology or about being politically correct. I'm really only interested in serious discussions about FSW with those who have chosen WYO or those who are considering WYO. It appears that you are happy in NH and have found a hobby with the FSP folks that agrees with you. Good for you. Thanks for the visit. Now on your way, troll.
With earthbags, we can build dirt cheap homes that last forever
one bag at a time. Although Wyoming isn't just for dirtbags...

Offline Michigan Escapee

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Re: Why the Focus on Survivalism?
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2008, 04:24:55 PM »
Citizen-14002,
Have you been to Wyoming lately?

I suggest going out there and breathe the air of liberty.

There is some thing about the place that can't be understood from a distance.

Take a little drive this summer(and don't forget your Battle Rifle).


Come on, the guy would shrivel and die without a connection to the hive. Three bars on the cell phone and he'd start to panic.  ;)

Washington on the other hand, has high mountains, fresh air, Wi-fi, lattes, angsty Seattle nerds to debate with until the sun burns out, and one thing Wyoming has very little of. RAIN buckets and buckets of it. Over 93 inches one year I think. And no state income tax, which is a bonus as well.  ;D

And there's geoducks, which scare the holy hell out of some people. http://www.dec.state.ak.us/EH/images/lab/geoduck.jpeg
You drop one of those on some prude out of staters plates, they'll scream like the devil was after em.  >:D
Our local variety is usually black though.  :o

Who can say though, I might live long enough to retire, and then I can get a cabin and small plot of land out there. Maybe a modest 300-400 acres, and play crazed recluse for a change.  :)
 

Offline socalserf

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Re: Why the Focus on Survivalism?
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2008, 05:48:29 PM »
I guess that I'm hopelessly optimistic.
Can't everyone become enlightened?
It's well known that everone doesn't want to see the light, but that is a personal issue and is ammendable.

Q. How many psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb?
A. Only one, but it takes a long time and the light bulb has to want to change!

Citizen-142002, Have you ever been to an Appleseed?
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php
Consider becoming a Rifleman.


Offline Michigan Escapee

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Re: Why the Focus on Survivalism?
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2008, 09:42:57 PM »
Hey, on the survivalism theme, I found this series while rotting my brain with random youtube
wackyness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNNnHe3MzTU&feature=related

This guy is a riot, just goes to show what old bored vietnam vets can dream up over a winter
or two without the benefits of basic cable. And surprise surprise, its a product of stomin norman's crew(don't ask) out of Michigan.

Offline bobcat

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Re: Why the Focus on Survivalism?
« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2008, 01:28:55 PM »
I may have given an impression of what's going on here a in a tinted way. I'm a minarchist and so I focused on the inside the system examples. Two of the media sources I mentioned Free Talk Live and the New Hampshire Free Press were started by vehement Ancaps. Well Mark from Free Talk Live is a minarchist, but Ian's message of totally rejecting the state is definitely the one that carries through.

There are plenty of people here who completely reject the authority of anyone calling themselves the government. Russel Kanning has gone to jail here many times for not recognizing state authority and so has Lauren Canario.

There really is no group think in the FSP as some try to allege. There many different camps, and some of them disagree pretty strongly on the best way to eliminate/reduce the state. The LPNH doesn't seem to have benefited much from the early movers and I think that's because a lot of them take an outside the system apolitical approach. Plus it's not hard to for state rep as a Republican or Democrat and win. You can run on basically zero budget, so you don't have to stay on the party's good side.

I'm not trying to convince anyone to move to NH. I think Wyoming is a fine place for a free state, or free state-less society. I'm just trying to say that reaching out to the public and other sympathetic groups can help you get more movers. I've found that the greatest strength in the FSP is that there is such a diversity in what people are doing here, FSW might be able to benefit from that kind of diversity of thought and action.

The discussion has been pretty civil and I appreciate that, but a couple folks have seemed really angered that I'd dare to ask a simple question. My experience is that people who are confident and feel secure about what they're doing don't come off as angry, so most of you probably feel happy with whatever strategy you've got so stick with it.

One of the great things about freedom is that different people are able to handle things differently and others get to see what course of action seems most productive to them.
Please spare us. Mark is a complete idiot and Ian isn't much better. Maybe you should open a new thread called "psychobabble and pot-stirrers" and you can all get lathered up by all the names for the subtle variations of liberty lovers that you know. Gosh, don't you get enough of that at the FSP forum? To me they are only varying degrees of enlightenment - or self-truth. At some point, you will realize that the government (all government) is designed to control by force. Those in government want power - always more power. Trying to change it is a noble (but futile) cause.
My tone is probably more uncivil than most of the FSW folks, but I am not apologizing for that. I don't care for your ideas, or your methods. I don't care for the FSP, or some of their methods. I want government to leave me alone, and I'd like you to leave me alone. As far as being angered about people asking a question... I wasn't angered. You can ask anything you like. But I will answer how ever I like - directly, bluntly, and honestly. If you don't like my answer, don't whine until I agree with you... just go someplace else where they do agree with you. Sometimes, it pays not to ask certain questions. You might try to figure the answer out for yourself. For instance, you shouldn't ask questions like: How much money do you make, where do you live, what is your SS#, how many guns do you have, how much food storage do you have, how can you believe in God, or have you ever cheated on your spouse? Most people have enough good manners and good sense not to ask such personal questions. I would put your initial question into that category. It IS a public forum, but it is really for meant for those in the FSW and those considering moving to WYO. If you notice, none of the FSW folks have asked the question or chimed in to agree with you. Regarding whether we are secure or insecure about the decisions we have made... try not to hurt yourself, Dr. Freud... A. It is none of your business and B. You sound like an imbecile trying to analyze someone based on such limited information.
I believe it is obvious to everyone that you are only a provocateur trying to bait us into ethereal discussions that “minarchist” <g> love to engage in. As I said earlier, I'm not interested in your games or suggestions. I'm not interested in your cracker jack psychology or about being politically correct. I'm really only interested in serious discussions about FSW with those who have chosen WYO or those who are considering WYO. It appears that you are happy in NH and have found a hobby with the FSP folks that agrees with you. Good for you. Thanks for the visit. Now on your way, troll.

Thank you Fran.  Well said, esp. provocateur.  I was thinking it, but held back hoping conversation would reveal something different.  I was incorrect.

FWIW, Citizen14, since I (and others here as will say so themselves) am an independent thinker, expect to be responded to accordingly: frankly, and often with  vigor as we are passionate about freedom and how far this Republic has slipped.   

I observe that FSW is a hearty group of self-reliant folks that does not feel the need to apologize to anyone for pursuing independent endeavors in a manner consistent with principles of freedom and high standards of behavior.  You are welcome to join us, but whiners and apologists will be churned underfoot as they are an unnecessary burden.
Bobcat  

"Those who would sacrifice Liberty for security, deserve neither Liberty or security."  -Benjamin Franklin
"Citizenship is not a spectator sport"  -K Denninger

Offline archy

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Re: Why the Focus on Survivalism?
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2008, 01:13:21 PM »

Why the Focus on Survivalism?

The alternative to survival seems kind of depressing. If inevitable, there doesn't seem to be any good reason to embrace it immediately.

And if one must abandon life, it would be nice if it could be after a full lifetime of accomplishment, or in the pursuit of a good cause or endeavour.

I happen to think that the FSW is just dandy as an example of that kind of good cause or endeavour worthy of personal effort, and that effort may very well produce a result worthy of the most personal and expensive sort of protection.
I cried because I had no shoes, until I met a man who had no feet. After I realized he had no use for his shoes, I took them, and then I felt much better about myself.

Offline TreadNotUponMe

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Re: Why the Focus on Survivalism?
« Reply #41 on: August 26, 2008, 02:37:08 PM »

This is all the more relevant
when one considers the increasing federalization of the law and police forces.
Meaning, a successfull NH marijuana decrim bill will likely be overturned by the
federal courts (as happened in CA).  Then, what will you all do?


Gonzales v. Reich didn't overturn California's law.  It just declined to overturn the FEDERAL law. 

Also, Boston, many of us NH Free Staters are learning to be riflemen (I'll add that I got my start learning about guns from Boston's Gun Bible).

Offline Boston

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Re: Why the Focus on Survivalism?
« Reply #42 on: August 26, 2008, 02:56:41 PM »
Quote
Gonzales v. Reich didn't overturn California's law.  It just declined to overturn the FEDERAL law.
OK, I stand corrected, though I fail to see any effective difference.


Quote
Also, Boston, many of us NH Free Staters are learning to be riflemen (I'll add that I got my start learning about guns from Boston's Gun Bible).
Very encouraging to read, and thanks for crediting my book as your inspiration.
btw, how are you all learning?  Appleseed?

Boston


Offline TreadNotUponMe

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Re: Why the Focus on Survivalism?
« Reply #43 on: August 30, 2008, 04:22:30 PM »
Quote
Also, Boston, many of us NH Free Staters are learning to be riflemen (I'll add that I got my start learning about guns from Boston's Gun Bible).
Very encouraging to read, and thanks for crediting my book as your inspiration.
btw, how are you all learning?  Appleseed?

Boston


[/quote]

Yeah, mostly.  Appleseed is how I'm learning at least, as well as person to person mentoring.  I'm pretty good with a handgun, but not so much with a rifle yet.

Offline socalserf

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Re: Why the Focus on Survivalism?
« Reply #44 on: August 30, 2008, 06:33:58 PM »
Just remember, Appleseed is a great program, but don't stop there!
Get all the training you can afford while the getting is good.