Author Topic: Wyoming and its challenges  (Read 22924 times)

Offline Paul Bonneau

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Re: Wyoming and its challenges
« Reply #90 on: November 03, 2008, 10:38:18 PM »
Well, that may be a bit of a stretch to say Molon Labe is our plan.  :)

All those who move here, even with the help of this group, have their own plans.
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Offline georgedonnelly

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Re: Wyoming and its challenges
« Reply #91 on: November 04, 2008, 04:46:21 AM »
I didn't say it was anyone's plan. I said it was "a plan". I know what it is - it's a work of fiction. I'm just saying that if John reads it, it might put his concerns to rest.

To be explicit, an independent-minded state government willing to take calculated risks, with a similar kind of population to back it up, can effectively take on (many or possibly all of) the problems John brings up. Or at least it would get itself and the federal government out of the way and allow people to find their own solutions.
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Offline MichaelNotMike

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Re: Wyoming and its challenges
« Reply #92 on: November 20, 2008, 05:49:19 AM »
I guess freedom is relative.

Since moving to Crook County I'm free to:
Build a house whichever way I want with no zoning.
Ditto with "land use". There isn't any here.
I needed no excavation permit.
I needed no building permit.
I needed no electrical permit.
I needed no plumbing permit.
I needed no inspections of any kind for the structure (only for the septic system, which is controlled by the state).
I live on a private road. I'm "free" to drink and drive on it (if I was foolish enough to).
I OC my gun nearly every place I go in WY & SD. No one has ever freaked out over it.
I can shoot from my deck without causing alarm from either the neighbors or law enforcement.
The sheriff deputies wave when we pass each other on the highway. I wave back.
The deputies start up pleasant conversation when they see me OCing rather than "GET ON THE GROUND!"
I'm free to look up at the Milky Way and the meteor showers without man made light pollution.
I'm able to drive around at night on the highways and almost never have to use my low beams due to oncoming traffic.
And I'm able to call or visit the local county offices, like the county clerk, treasurer, assessor, and DMV, and get polite, prompt, friendly service with a smile.

This may not fit someone else's definition of being "free", but it's about the closest thing you'll EVER find in this country in the 21st century. Wyoming may not be perfect, but it's the closest thing I've found to heaven while living on earth.

Mac

Sounds sweet.

--I can only open carry in my home (so I do. In a holster.)

--To get a CCW in my county, you have to be a judge or a movie star.

--We own our house, but had to ask the home owner's association permission to put a motion-sensor light outside over our bedroom window after I caught a guy trying to pry it open while we were home. And that permission took nine months, many letters, and finally tacitly threatening to sue.

MWD
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Offline MamaLiberty

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Re: Wyoming and its challenges
« Reply #93 on: November 20, 2008, 05:57:32 AM »
So, Thorndaddy, how soon can you get here? <G> Not going to get any better there. :)
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Offline MichaelNotMike

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Re: Wyoming and its challenges
« Reply #94 on: November 20, 2008, 06:14:13 AM »
So, Thorndaddy, how soon can you get here? <G> Not going to get any better there. :)

Yeah, I was just reading other posts, and saw you came from here. I also liked the article that mentioned your Cali license plates full of shotgun holes. My Remington 870 twitched with delight at that thought.

I don't know....Debra Jean gets up for her cubicle slavery job in about 15 minutes, I'll chat her up on it as she gets ready for work. Seriously though, we may play this as a virtual game for a while first. We like the health benefits from her cube farm. Me, I'm a writer, can make my living from mailbox money. It would be enough to support us somewhere cheap to live. But we're such hot-weather kitties. Heck...I dunno, I'll talk with her.

We're so in love that if I said, "Honey, we're moving to Montana, just like that Zappa song, next month", she'd start packing. But I think we should save up a bit first to buy a nice stretch of land there.

I own an acre of land in Kenna, New Mexico. I more or less won it in a card game. I've never seen it, but I know it exists, because every year I pay the seven dollars and fifty cents property tax. I once called the county clerk there, she was real friendly. I said "What permits do I need to build there?" She laughed. "Permits? You don't need permits. You can do whatever you like out there! If the neighbors don't like it, they'll just shoot you!" She also said, "You'll have to scrape the land to get rid of the rattlesnakes before you build."

But hell, we've got rattlesnakes here too, saw one in the driveway last year. And coyotes in back of the house. Just like Wyoming, except too many laws here, the neighbors are 30 feet away, and our "ranch" consists of four rooms and 1100 square feet. But when the doors are shut and the alarms are armed, it is out little "nation of two" (with three cats as our "subjects") But yeah, our nation (which we call "Nestlandia") could exist anywhere. So I'll keep Wyoming close in mind.

Debra Jean and I have thought so much about West Virginia being the "promised land" for us that I've got a WV flag hanging on the wall right in front of me. (It's a good image - has two guns on it, and says "Mountain men are always free" in Latin.) But maybe I need to get a Wyoming flag and meditate on that for a while.

Michael
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Offline MichaelNotMike

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Re: Wyoming and its challenges
« Reply #95 on: November 20, 2008, 06:19:01 AM »
p/s was speaking figuratively with "moving to Montana." I know it's not Wyoming.

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Offline bobcat

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Re: Wyoming and its challenges
« Reply #96 on: November 20, 2008, 06:37:23 AM »
TD,
Having once had the chance to move to beautiful Southern Cali, I am darn glad we didn't make that choice.  I simply can't imagine living there. 

Nearly anyplace else probably sounds like 'heaven'.  Fortunately I live in a Midwest state that allows OC and CC.  Ok, I need a permission slip from the local gendarmes, but it's a 'shall issue' state so if you can legally own a firearm, it's a cinch.

And there are the beginnings of the differences between here and MT/WY/ID.  OC in those states has not been degraded to require 'permission' to be legal.  As well, building codes and permits are considerably less onerous, as are property taxes.  Besides the beauty of the mountains and geology, that's the draw for us.

If you're young, move sooner than later.  Once roots and job seniority set in, it's much more difficult to leave, especially with the economy on the fritz.  Even if you can't get that 'Sweet Forty', depending on what your skillset is, planting yourself sooner than later and working towards your goal in WY may be worth considering. 
Bobcat  

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Offline MichaelNotMike

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Re: Wyoming and its challenges
« Reply #97 on: November 20, 2008, 07:16:22 AM »
TD,
Having once had the chance to move to beautiful Southern Cali, I am darn glad we didn't make that choice.  I simply can't imagine living there. 

Nearly anyplace else probably sounds like 'heaven'.  Fortunately I live in a Midwest state that allows OC and CC.  Ok, I need a permission slip from the local gendarmes, but it's a 'shall issue' state so if you can legally own a firearm, it's a cinch.

And there are the beginnings of the differences between here and MT/WY/ID.  OC in those states has not been degraded to require 'permission' to be legal.  As well, building codes and permits are considerably less onerous, as are property taxes.  Besides the beauty of the mountains and geology, that's the draw for us.

If you're young, move sooner than later.  Once roots and job seniority set in, it's much more difficult to leave, especially with the economy on the fritz.  Even if you can't get that 'Sweet Forty', depending on what your skillset is, planting yourself sooner than later and working towards your goal in WY may be worth considering. 

OC has always seemed like a scary option to me. I think may have been Ayoub who said something like "I prefer concealed. If a bad guy starts shooting, he's gonna shoot the guy openly displaying the gun first." To which the wife replied, "Yeah, but if EVERYONE'S openly carrying....."

I'm not young or old. I'm 44. Stuck in the middle. You know that saying "If you're young and not a liberal, you have no heart. If you're old and not a conservative, you have no brain"? Well, I am chronologically and philosophically exactly halfway in the middle of that. Which to me doesn't feel like "I'm a moderate" it feels more like "JANE! STOP THIS CRAZY THING!" I'm in a state of flux. I used to parrot liberal slogans and vote on issues without studying them. Now I read every scrap of legislation and every candidate's congressional record before voting, and feel like vomiting when I go to vote. No choices that fit.

We basically plan to live here for about ten more years, save money and retire. The wife has had the same job for 18 years, has a good situation. I can do my job from anywhere.

One issue is that, while we're both in pretty good health, Debra Jean has joint pain, and cold makes it a lot worse. When I told her about Wyoming, she pulled the covers over her head. But then she peaked out and said "Can I have a pony if we live there?" I said, "I don't see why not..."

Michael
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Offline MamaLiberty

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Re: Wyoming and its challenges
« Reply #98 on: November 20, 2008, 07:27:37 AM »
Quote
OC has always seemed like a scary option to me. I think may have been Ayoub who said something like "I prefer concealed. If a bad guy starts shooting, he's gonna shoot the guy openly displaying the gun first."

That old saw about open carry is simply not true. Find ONE documented example of that ever happening... you can't. It is statistically irrelevant, especially in a rural area. That idea has been talked to death on a dozen shooter's boards, and I've read lots of them.  In a big city with nasty gangs, it might be different, of course, but we don't have that problem. There is no wrong way to carry...  And remember that Ayoub - great as some of his advice may be - is a cop, with his own agenda.

I open carry everywhere, every day. This is part of the story: http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/07/02/12/editor.htm  I seriously need to update it, but it might help.

It's not that people are dumber, it's that stupidity used to be more painful.

Offline MichaelNotMike

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Re: Wyoming and its challenges
« Reply #99 on: November 20, 2008, 07:30:40 AM »
Quote
OC has always seemed like a scary option to me. I think may have been Ayoub who said something like "I prefer concealed. If a bad guy starts shooting, he's gonna shoot the guy openly displaying the gun first."

That old saw about open carry is simply not true. Find ONE documented example of that ever happening... you can't. It is statistically irrelevant, especially in a rural area. That idea has been talked to death on a dozen shooter's boards, and I've read lots of them.  In a big city with nasty gangs, it might be different, of course, but we don't have that problem. There is no wrong way to carry...  And remember that Ayoub - great as some of his advice may be - is a cop, with his own agenda.

I open carry everywhere, every day. This is part of the story: http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/07/02/12/editor.htm  I seriously need to update it, but it might help.


Point well taken.

Yup. While Ayoub is obviously "one of the good ones", it's like Boston says, cops tend to see the trees, not the forest. Cops see the worst aspects of humanity every day, and tend to be in that mindset.

MWD
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Offline Brent610

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Re: Wyoming and its challenges
« Reply #100 on: November 20, 2008, 10:51:23 AM »
This post alone is almost enough to convince me to move to WY. Compared to most of the states that is HEAVEN! Seriously I think you just convinced me to set a date for my trip. GREAT post, thank you.

I guess freedom is relative.

Since moving to Crook County I'm free to:
Build a house whichever way I want with no zoning.
Ditto with "land use". There isn't any here.
I needed no excavation permit.
I needed no building permit.
I needed no electrical permit.
I needed no plumbing permit.
I needed no inspections of any kind for the structure (only for the septic system, which is controlled by the state).
I live on a private road. I'm "free" to drink and drive on it (if I was foolish enough to).
I OC my gun nearly every place I go in WY & SD. No one has ever freaked out over it.
I can shoot from my deck without causing alarm from either the neighbors or law enforcement.
The sheriff deputies wave when we pass each other on the highway. I wave back.
The deputies start up pleasant conversation when they see me OCing rather than "GET ON THE GROUND!"
I'm free to look up at the Milky Way and the meteor showers without man made light pollution.
I'm able to drive around at night on the highways and almost never have to use my low beams due to oncoming traffic.
And I'm able to call or visit the local county offices, like the county clerk, treasurer, assessor, and DMV, and get polite, prompt, friendly service with a smile.

This may not fit someone else's definition of being "free", but it's about the closest thing you'll EVER find in this country in the 21st century. Wyoming may not be perfect, but it's the closest thing I've found to heaven while living on earth.

Mac

Offline Paul Bonneau

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Re: Wyoming and its challenges
« Reply #101 on: November 22, 2008, 10:59:05 PM »
Quote
We like the health benefits from her cube farm.

This must be somewhat a feminine thing. My wife worries about this too. I don't get it.

Your health is in your own hands. Get some outdoor work or hobbies, eat healthy. You'll be fine. A lot better than dealing with hospitals all the time, drugs, doctors, insurance companies - ugh!

We are mortal beings, meant to be here for a while, then we're gone. Deal with it. It's better I think not to get too wrapped around health issues if you can avoid it (personally I think mental attitude affects health quite a lot).

What kind of tradeoff is it, to spend your life in a cube farm so you have better access to a hospital? Which you'll need because of a sedentary life?  ???

Excuse the rant.

Quote
We basically plan to live here for about ten more years, save money and retire. The wife has had the same job for 18 years

Retire here, after 10 years? Hmmm. To me, if you are planning something for 10 years, you are planning not to do it. Might as well just give up on the idea right now. Or, plan for a year or less, and get the thing done. Can always move back, or somewhere else, if it doesn't work for some reason. My wife and I move at the drop of the hat. Maybe that's not normal.  :)

As to work, I can't imagine the same job for 18 years. The most I managed was 6 years before I had to move on. Remember, the grass is always greener on the other side of the hill.  ;)

Cold? You get used to it. Blood thickens, or whatever. You stay mostly inside in the winter anyway, except those clear sunny winter days (which are not rare here). Or you can escape south for a break once in a while, a common tradition here. Wyoming is not the arctic...

Pony? We have something around 37 horses at last count. Enough I think!
« Last Edit: November 22, 2008, 11:06:21 PM by Paul Bonneau »
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Offline MichaelNotMike

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Re: Wyoming and its challenges
« Reply #102 on: November 23, 2008, 05:06:33 AM »
Good points, Paul.

We are figuring out that Debra Jean and I are probably not good candidates for being relocating members of the Free State Wyoming movement. That's what I've been trying to figure out, why I've been posting. Because the ideals intrigued me. A lot. Especially the fact that they are not just ideals, but ideals in action.

But it's probably not my correct personal course of action. I think the "return to the country" idea is in my blood, but I don't think it's in my hands and back. I have probably have too much of an aversion to a lot of manual labor to make it there. I do more physical work in a week than many computer-job city folk do: I do my own home repair, I carry heavy objects when I need to, I don't balk at a walk, but all of that combined probably takes up an hour or two of my day, and I like it like that. And I'm really attuned to conveniences of exurb life. Call it soft if you will, but it's me, and it's what I like.

My parents were farmers, their parents, etc, all the way back to Europe. My siblings and I were the first in our line to go to college, and even so, my two sisters (both older than me) did a few years at living off the land and off the grid, one in Vermont, one in West Virginia. As a kid, I absolutely LOVED the places they lived, and imagined living like that one day. Now both sisters have jobs-with-benefits, but both live on over ten acres that they own, but within an hour of a city (one in Upstate New York, one in Virginia.)  I think that's the sort of situation where my wife and I would be most happy, and where we'll probably end up.

I think it's important to be honest with myself and not be swept up with a romantic ideal, when I'd work like a dude rancher and complain and starve once I'm there.

Even though I most likely won't be moving to Wyoming to live, I'll probably stick around on here and read, and maybe chime in to ask occasional questions, if that's OK. There's a lot to learn for me here, and I think that even if I'll never take the oath, I'd like to be sort of a "adjunct in-philosophical-agreement member (or maybe just call it "a friend", if there's any room for that. 

Respectfully,
Michael W. Dean
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Offline MamaLiberty

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Re: Wyoming and its challenges
« Reply #103 on: November 23, 2008, 05:43:01 AM »
Much as some of us might like to, not everyone here is even close to "self-sufficient." I'm not sure that's even really possible. We all need each other, and good neighbors are the best part of life in Wyoming.

There are cities here, and lots of people work ordinary jobs in and around them, buy their food at the grocery store and live as little or as much outdoors as they please or are able to.

There is no reason to think you must become a farmer, cowboy or a roustabout to move to Wyoming! Your daily activities wouldn't need to change at all, unless you wanted them to.

What would be different is the attitude and character of those all around you.

Might want to think about it from that angle. :)
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Offline wyomiles

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Re: Wyoming and its challenges
« Reply #104 on: November 23, 2008, 12:18:30 PM »
Thorndaddy, you do not have to join us. You can come and go as you please. I am getting the feeling that you feel like you have to join the group and move to Wyoming if you spend time on this forum ?  While that is the overriding goal it is not manditory. I think we have many folks on line here who are just testing the waters , they have a dream , a feeling that there might be more freedom for them somewhere . But where?  I will not try to twist your arm about moving to Wyoming. But I will ask you to think about visiting Wyoming if you are able. There are places in Wyoming that rival upstate NY and VA on many levels. There are all of the ammenities of any other US state. For instance ,in Rock Springs , where I spent many years, there are doctors,lawyers,PHD college professors,people of 56 nationalities. My wife and I are blue collar, simple folks and we hung out with all types of people .The landscape in Rock Springs is high mountain desert, sagebrush country. I lived in a normal subdivision but I could go five miles from my house and be in the wilderness. Within an hours drive were some of the most beautiful mountains in america. Within 3 hours was the large city of Salt Lake City. There are other towns like Rock Springs. There are many smaller, some larger, they all have thier individual cultures. I always advise people to take a vacation and see many different parts of Wyoming. This is the only real way to find out what we here are so excited about.
" Cultivators of the earth are tied to their country and wedded to it's liberty and interests by the most lasting bonds" --Thomas Jefferson --1785