New to FSW and looking to move

[Crappiewy]

I agree with you Paul except in the part about any new government in Wyoming being worse. It would probably be better and much smaller. The thing about Wyoming is that it is large with a small population. Everyone knows everyone. Your neighbor might be your rep or sherrif. If and when the gloves come off there is no place for people aspiring to power to hide. Like you said. Government is composed of people. People who do things for different reasons. Today they have little fear from the population. But if and when there is a crash of some sorts they will be more afraid for  their lives and much less willing to do things that are anti populace.

[Paul Bonneau]

I agree. Except Don said the part about any new government in Wyoming being worse, not me. 

[Don Wills]

I agree with you Paul except in the part about any new government in Wyoming being worse. It would probably be better and much smaller.

Note that I didn't say "Wyoming government".  I said "the successor government that governs the lands of Wyoming".  I expect that will be some type of fascist tyranny with headquarters in Washington DC that pretends to still follow the Constitution but doesn't (oops, that's what we have now     ).

After the collapse of the dollar, martial law will be declared and jackbooted thugs, possibly with blue hats, will be our "protectors" in Wyoming.  Secession would be a good thing in that environment, but the powerful on Wall Street and in Washington, DC recognize that the energy resources in Wyoming and surrounding states are invaluable, so they aren't going to let us go our own way without a fight.  Think Sherman's March to the Sea.  And that will be the darkest day for the white man in the lands of North America, even darker than 1861-1865.  Maybe a better government will arise out of the ashes after the conflagration, as it is the normal cycle of things to get better at some point.  However, I doubt that any group of power brokers who control the JBTs would ever again embrace and attempt to implement the idealism of Jefferson, et al.  The idea that man is sovereign, and that government is subservient to the rights of man, is a one-time experiment folks, and we'd better work to fix it and hold onto it as tight as we can.

[Dennis Wilson]

And how exactly do you propose to get from here to there??? and I take it that your answer to my question is  (ta-da)  DO NOTHING!  If that's your preferred solution to stopping the slide to tyranny, we're all toast.

OBVIOUSLY you have not bothered to read any of the articles. Invisible resistance to tyranny certainly does NOT consist of doing nothing.

Attempting to CONTROL government means that--in L Neil Smith's famous phrase--"the only way to control the government is to become the government". Some victory over tyranny that is. Meet the new controllers, same as the old controllers. Where is the plan to control the new controllers? Why all the emphasis on controlling other people? That is like waging war in order to end war.

If you want to end war, stop fighting. If you want to end controls, stop trying to control the actions of other people. If you want to end government controls, stop supporting government.

Dennis

P.S. Do NOT make the mistake of thinking that this is a "pacifist" position. Armed resistance in self defense against initiated acts of  aggression is justified and should be expected.

[MANUMIT]

With ever-increasing budgets and the force of "law" arrayed against you through the education indoctrination of the "majority," any attempt to restore/protect the rights and sovereignty of individuals outside personal spheres of influence is tilting at windmills.

This fact proves itself everyday both here on the forum and in the meat-world.

Heck "liberty-seeking" folks around these forums won't even agree to the principle that an individual has a right to be left alone (read voluntary involvement) in the next iteration of CON-stitional "do-what-i-say-cause-i-got-a-piece-of-paper" gun-vernment.   

I wonder why....and the only answer I come up with is because standing by that basic principle removes the moral high-ground to establish ANY central authority at ANY level to coerce action and accumulate power making an evermore "efficient" system of compliance.

Fix what we currently reside under?  Hell no...it was broken in 1789 and all we are seeing today is the final results of the 2nd American Revolution...the constitutional convention.

One-time experiment in the sovereignty of the individual?  Nope...the real experiments happen everyday outside of any hall of power or legislature and Don, as you point out, when their fiction of authority and power ultimately collapses, the results will speak for themselves in the hearts of individuals shown through their individual actions on both sides. 

Spending time working to fix a broken system, does nothing but waste time you should be using to shore up individual relationships and skills.  IMNSHOoc

[Don Wills]

Spending time working to fix a broken system, does nothing but waste time you should be using to shore up individual relationships and skills.

And what "individual relationships" or "skills" should I be working on?  FYI, I'm, a 61 year old, overweight, divorced white guy whose eyesight isn't all that hot, and whose children and grand-children live in Illinois and won't leave.  What do you suggest?

That was a rhetorical question - thanks but no thanks for your guidance.  I'll be ignoring the suggestions you give to me for how I should lead my life.

Instead, I'll be working to change the political power structure in Wyoming, which might possibly help avoid a giant bloodbath in the calamity that will most surely follow the collapse of the dollar.  It might not, but neither one of us knows whether what I'm working on will make a difference in a dollar collapse scenario.

To be more specific, here are some examples of the things I hope to have come to reality in the next decade in Wyoming:

1.  The ability to legally use precious metals for commerce within the state of Wyoming, along with a bank, either state or privately owned, to facilitate such commerce
2.  Weaning Wyoming off of the federal teat - no more child left behind, healthcare mandates, drinking age edicts, land management, etc.
3.  Make it legal to manufacture and sell in Wyoming:  100 watt light bulbs, toilets that flush 4+ gallons per flush, shower heads that use lots of water, fully automatic guns, etc.
4.  Return control of abortion to the state legislature, as the Constitution says decisions about such affairs are the province of the states, not the feds
5.  Return control of drug laws to the state legislature, for the same reason as 4.
6.  A state takeover of all NFS and BLM land in Wyoming, along with mineral property rights.  The state should then sell off the land to private interests.

These are all things that are doable by a sufficiently independent legislature.  Yes, some things (e.g. point 6) will be very much harder than others.  So what!  Are these things worth trying to accomplish?  You betcha!

So, should I learn to shoot a rifle better, or try to accomplish points 1 through 6?  As I said before, I've already made my decision, but the reader may now understand my reasoning better.

[MANUMIT]

Spending time working to fix a broken system, does nothing but waste time you my time which I am should be using to shore up individual relationships and skills.

Fixed for apparent sensitivities...however good point, since I never pretend to speak for any one but myself, I have clarified my opinion

Getting control of Cheyenne to dictate all your points down to the unwashed masses is your plan...good luck.  In the meantime, I will be working to get the unwashed masses (one-by-one) to realize they don't need Cheyenne anymore than Washington DC, and perhaps we'll meet in the middle someday...

Important, necessary skills and relationships reach far beyond just 500 yards of BLM-owned ground...

MANUMIT

[Crappiewy]

Spending time working to fix a broken system, does nothing but waste time you should be using to shore up individual relationships and skills.

And what "individual relationships" or "skills" should I be working on?  FYI, I'm, a 61 year old, overweight, divorced white guy whose eyesight isn't all that hot, and whose children and grand-children live in Illinois and won't leave.  What do you suggest?

That was a rhetorical question - thanks but no thanks for your guidance.  I'll be ignoring the suggestions you give to me for how I should lead my life.

Instead, I'll be working to change the political power structure in Wyoming, which might possibly help avoid a giant bloodbath in the calamity that will most surely follow the collapse of the dollar.  It might not, but neither one of us knows whether what I'm working on will make a difference in a dollar collapse scenario.

To be more specific, here are some examples of the things I hope to have come to reality in the next decade in Wyoming:

1.  The ability to legally use precious metals for commerce within the state of Wyoming, along with a bank, either state or privately owned, to facilitate such commerce
2.  Weaning Wyoming off of the federal teat - no more child left behind, healthcare mandates, drinking age edicts, land management, etc.
3.  Make it legal to manufacture and sell in Wyoming:  100 watt light bulbs, toilets that flush 4+ gallons per flush, shower heads that use lots of water, fully automatic guns, etc.
4.  Return control of abortion to the state legislature, as the Constitution says decisions about such affairs are the province of the states, not the feds
5.  Return control of drug laws to the state legislature, for the same reason as 4.
6.  A state takeover of all NFS and BLM land in Wyoming, along with mineral property rights.  The state should then sell off the land to private interests.

These are all things that are doable by a sufficiently independent legislature.  Yes, some things (e.g. point 6) will be very much harder than others.  So what!  Are these things worth trying to accomplish?  You betcha!

So, should I learn to shoot a rifle better, or try to accomplish points 1 through 6?  As I said before, I've already made my decision, but the reader may now understand my reasoning better.

What you want to do is just a drop in the bucket compaired to what needs to be done. ANd when you are done will be screwed up just as bad.
Do you honestly believe that the Feds will just let us go? At best instead of oweing the Feds our future we will owe the state. Not much of a trade off there.

[archy]

There's a state women's prison at Lusk, one county south of Weston where several of those of us of the FSW call home [Hi ML!]

I can't tell you what working conditions are like but one pal of mine applied for a position there and I've not yet heard any complaints from him.

I've got my fingers in a project that might keep 10- a dozen of us employed and housed for a few months to a half year, certainly long enough to get relocated and maybe find something else to move on to once the project ends. I try not to count chickens before they hatch, but it looks at least 50-50 possible at this point. Developing.

[MamaLiberty]

There's a state women's prison at Lusk, one county south of Weston where several of those of us of the FSW call home [Hi ML!]

I can't tell you what working conditions are like but one pal of mine applied for a position there and I've not yet heard any complaints from him.

I've got my fingers in a project that might keep 10- a dozen of us employed and housed for a few months to a half year, certainly long enough to get relocated and maybe find something else to move on to once the project ends. I try not to count chickens before they hatch, but it looks at least 50-50 possible at this point. Developing.

I'm dying to learn more. Are you saying it's going to take 10 or a dozen of us to guard you at the women's prison at Lusk - a few months to a year? Verrrry interesting...       

[archy]

I'm dying to learn more. Are you saying it's going to take 10 or a dozen of us to guard you at the women's prison at Lusk - a few months to a year? Verrrry interesting...       

Nah. A pal of mine who has been doing physical rehab work with disabled veterans needs a break and wants to head west, though it's uncertain yet whether he'll eventually light in Wyoming or North Dakota, both place  of which he's got applications and opportunities for.

But I've got something a little different in mind, and it doesn't involve either the women's state pen at Lusk nor any kind of Wyoming governmental contracts. More about this as it develops.

[MamaLiberty]

More about this as it develops.

The coffee's always on and I'm all ears.

[Paul Bonneau]

Don, the only problem I see with your plan is incentive. The legislators have no incentive to go along.

I was thinking of giving them some with the Wyoming Liberty Index. Specifically I was hoping to use it to get some opposition running against the worst legislators at the bottom of the list It never happened, and often those legislators would "serve"  from year to year drawing no opposition at all.

If you can't put up a credible threat you can't change their behavior.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but it takes more than I was able to bring to the table. Wyoming Liberty Group has the index now, and maybe you can work with them to try unseating these liberty-haters. I was thinking a little publicity would be nice, e.g find the "most liberty-hostile" guy on the list, go into his district, and publicize that he was the worst on the list, and also publicize that you are looking for someone to unseat him.

I am guessing if two or three were unseated via publicity of the Index, all the rest would suddenly become a lot more reasonable.

[Don Wills]

Paul,

There is only one thing that motivates elected officials:  getting re-elected.

To get re-elected, a politician needs money and love - money, lots of it, to advertise and spread around, and love in the form of fawning letters to the editor, endorsements by MSM and VIPs, and talk show hosts who lob softballs.

Both money and love are reduced when a politician takes a stand on an issue, any issue, because some portion of the electorate will disagree with his position.  So the most expedient approach for all politicians IS TO DO NOTHING.  Don't offend anyone.  Don't take any position on controversial issues.  Few politicians break these cardinal rules of getting re-elected.

My point is that the Wyoming Liberty Index is a wonderful tool to sort out the good guys from the bad guys.  Unfortunately, by itself, the Wyoming Liberty Index is not sufficient to get them voted out of office.  Easy ballot access is another important part of the puzzle, and that's what the Wyoming Country Party will address.  The hardest part is to find good candidates to take on the bad guys.  Most who would be successful candidates disdain politics and will not run.  It's only an occasional person who steps up to challenge the RINO status quo.  In Wyoming, good guys who run against the bad guys in the Republican primary invariably lose.  ALL GOP incumbents for state legislature won their primary elections in 2010.

To actually defeat a RINO, you need a good candidate with lots of money.  But more than that, you need to increase voters' negative opinions of the incumbent RINO but exposing the RINO's voting record, shady dealing, moral turpitude, or whatever.  Yep, it's negative politics, but that's just the way it is, and always has been.  If you're not willing to get your hands dirty, you don't belong in politics, and you won't ever have an impact.  If you are interested, let's continue this discussion in a new thread in Politics forum titled "The Real Nature of Politics and Politicians".

[kylben]

Sounds like that what Don is aiming for is in line with agorist goals... just that they don't go as far.  Rather than pooh-pooh it, I'd rather find a way to leverage his efforts toward my goals. His success would make Wyoming a better place for us anarchists, too.  After all, it's what he's passionate and dedicated to, and so long as what somebody is passionate about and dedicated to isn't harming me, I'm not going to try to pressure him out of it.

Don, the agorist "do nothing" approach (in case you're not familiar, agorism is basically anarcho-capitalist goals combined with economic rather than political or violent means) is not doing nothing, it is focusing on that which we have direct control over - ourselves. To the extent it looks at "smashing the state", it is by starving it of access to our resources, but more importantly, its about producing and keeping our own resources regardless of the wider socio-political consequences.  Could a financial crisis bring a fascist strongman to power?  Sure, maybe, but we can't predict every possible outcome from billions of concrete factors, all we have to go on is principle, on taking the long view and trusting that doing what is right will be more likely to lead to beneficial outcomes than not doing what is right would. And if the fascist dictator is the inevitable outcome of a financial crisis, then we'd better get ready for one, because the government is past the point of no return in creating one all by itself, without our help.