Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match

[jhamilton1769]

First off let me open by saying I have nothing but respect for those of you who have managed to live your entire lives by your principles without any hiccups along the way. I unfortunately have not. In fact it is only in the last few years, which I have spent much time reading and reflecting, that I have even put much thought into moral principles and the question "what sort of man do I want to be" as opposed to the question where do I want to be in X number of years.
    My current moral dilemma regards the "honoring your agreements" part under what your group is looking for. You see I am a newly minted debt slave and I feel defrauded by my society and the adults that urged me to take on the student loans. Its a long story and mine is definitely not the same as many you will find in the OWS crowd. To make a long story short I feel a degree of responsibility unlike the OWS crowd to pay back at the least the principle of what I borrowed for an education but current laws recently amended in 2001 deny all bankruptcy protections and the government has me over a barrel, knows this and is unwilling to work with me. What irks me is the interest and penalties combined with the high taxes the government is hitting me with here in NYC, I pay state city and federal taxes on income as well as transit taxes built into utility bills and a 10% local sales tax. On top of this I see bailouts left and right for people who borrowed for what I consider less noble ventures such as large homes they could not afford. What do you FSW members think? Would I be a poor fit with the FSW movement if I just dropped everything for a Spartan bare bones libertarian lifestyle in Wyoming? Would you find me apprehensible for playing hard ball with Uncle Sam and not honoring my agreements because I feel defrauded? If any of you needed more information I don't mind providing pertinent details such as those regarding my work ethic i.e. did I do my due diligence in picking a major that would enable me to pay back the debt? Did I do my best to keep costs low? so forth.

[Foundit]

First off let me open by saying I have nothing but respect for those of you who have managed to live your entire lives by your principles without any hiccups along the way. I unfortunately have not. In fact it is only in the last few years, which I have spent much time reading and reflecting, that I have even put much thought into moral principles and the question "what sort of man do I want to be" as opposed to the question where do I want to be in X number of years.
    My current moral dilemma regards the "honoring your agreements" part under what your group is looking for. You see I am a newly minted debt slave and I feel defrauded by my society and the adults that urged me to take on the student loans. Its a long story and mine is definitely not the same as many you will find in the OWS crowd. To make a long story short I feel a degree of responsibility unlike the OWS crowd to pay back at the least the principle of what I borrowed for an education but current laws recently amended in 2001 deny all bankruptcy protections and the government has me over a barrel, knows this and is unwilling to work with me. What irks me is the interest and penalties combined with the high taxes the government is hitting me with here in NYC, I pay state city and federal taxes on income as well as transit taxes built into utility bills and a 10% local sales tax. On top of this I see bailouts left and right for people who borrowed for what I consider less noble ventures such as large homes they could not afford. What do you FSW members think? Would I be a poor fit with the FSW movement if I just dropped everything for a Spartan bare bones libertarian lifestyle in Wyoming? Would you find me apprehensible for playing hard ball with Uncle Sam and not honoring my agreements because I feel defrauded? If any of you needed more information I don't mind providing pertinent details such as those regarding my work ethic i.e. did I do my due diligence in picking a major that would enable me to pay back the debt? Did I do my best to keep costs low? so forth.

Welcome to the board.  You are of course welcome in Wyoming too. 

As far as the student loans go, I too am in your boat.  I am dealing with them as best as I can.  However, am doing so for practical reasons, and not for any moral reasons.  As products of a corrupt system, we were duped into believing that college was the "only avenue to success."    When you enter into a contract that is fraudulent from the get go, the contract is null and void.

I agree that not allowing people to Bankrupt out of student loans is disgusting if person's circumstances warrant it.  The Founding Fathers banned debtor prisons and put bankruptcy in the Constitution as they didn't want people to become permanent debt slaves.

Have you looked into Income Based Repayment (IBR)?  It is not well advertised, but it can help with the student loan payments.  Check out: http://www.ibrinfo.org/.   

[MamaLiberty]

Just my 2 cents worth...

Do some serious reading here at the forum. Get to know the folks here as well as you can. PM and "talk" to some who interest you, perhaps. Plan to make a visit here so you can look us over, and we can get to know you face to face.

What you do about your debt problem is strictly your business, and few of us are going to stand in judgment over you about that or anything else that doesn't involve aggression. You are the man who has to face the guy in the mirror each day... and he is the ONLY one you must satisfy as to your integrity and worth. Ever...  

Do as you think right, harming none. You'll fit in fine.

[Brandy]

Sad to say that probably 95% of the US has been in your shoes in some form and one time or another.   If you have no children and single you could just jump on it and live a very minimalist lifestyle and work 2 or 3 jobs and just get out of debt--and then never take on debt again.   "The man in the mirror" might be better off just taking on this beast and slaying it.  I too had student loans but at the time there were programs that were work for service in underserved areas--if there had not been we would have been in the same boat.   

In the end as Mama says you have figure out what will help and hurt only you the most.

Brandy

[manfromnevada]

Welcome jhamilton!

So you've been "defrauded"? How's that exactly?
You borrowed money from the government (taxpayers or China), signed the agreement, and now you have to pay it back?
You were of legal age when you signed? Yes?

People change. Times change. But don't delude yourself thinking you were taken advantage of.
That's like the people who took out home loans on homes they couldn't afford, expecting the price to go up, and now that they haven't, and their homes are under water they are screaming that the "big banks" defrauded, tricked, and coerced them into taking out a loan on a house. I'm sure they are still carrying bruises from when the banksters took them into the back room and beat them with bamboo until they signed.

Oh,don't get me wrong. We all love freedom. And I'm hoping you've seen the light as to the government handouts, endless spending, and the strings attached.

Only you can tell if it's a "good fit" here. Look around. Post some thoughts and responses. See how it goes. We demand nothing and expect nothing but a civil discussion of ideas.

Mac

[Don Wills]

jh - You need to get the hell out of NYC as fast as possible.  That place is a festering cesspool of crony criminals (to call them crony capitalists is to besmirch capitalism).  If you're not on the inside of the graft, you're just so much litter to be swept up and tossed into the trash.

Make up your own mind about the student loan repayments - don't tell anyone else about it and it will be a non-issue.  The more you talk about it the more you open yourself up for criticism.

You don't say what your degree is in.  That's mighty important.  Are you willing to ignore it and go work in an open pit coal mine?  Or wrangle cattle?  Or drive a truck?  If you're going to be picky about how you make money, you shouldn't move here.  Folks in Wyoming generally work hard.  The pay is good, but it's not a 9-5 desk job world.

[Foundit]

Welcome jhamilton!

So you've been "defrauded"? How's that exactly?
You borrowed money from the government (taxpayers or China), signed the agreement, and now you have to pay it back?
You were of legal age when you signed? Yes?

People change. Times change. But don't delude yourself thinking you were taken advantage of.
That's like the people who took out home loans on homes they couldn't afford, expecting the price to go up, and now that they haven't, and their homes are under water they are screaming that the "big banks" defrauded, tricked, and coerced them into taking out a loan on a house. I'm sure they are still carrying bruises from when the banksters took them into the back room and beat them with bamboo until they signed.

Oh,don't get me wrong. We all love freedom. And I'm hoping you've seen the light as to the government handouts, endless spending, and the strings attached.

Only you can tell if it's a "good fit" here. Look around. Post some thoughts and responses. See how it goes. We demand nothing and expect nothing but a civil discussion of ideas.

Mac

The entire banking system is a fraud. The money system is a fraud. The banks bribed politicians to get the tax payers to incur the risks associated with student borrowing, and to take away constitutional protections for student loan borrowers. Those market distortions are what created this mess and destroyed the natural checks and balances on borrowing/lending.  The student loan debacle is  scam and a fraud.  You should look into the issue at depth, I think you will change your position if you do.

A good book to read on the subject is The Student Loan Scam: The Most Oppressive Debt in U.S. History.  http://www.amazon.com/The-Student-Loan-Scam-Oppressive/dp/0807042293

[Old Ironsights]

Welcome to the club.

Since going back to school to get the "degree" that was supposed to make me more marketable and help me get a job that would pay enough to keep my wife off of Social Security Disability, I have made LESS per year than I did without the degree averaging less than $24K/yr.

I have never considered NOT paying it off, but what pi$$es me off is that the Student Loan Scam is the ONLY debt that cannot be refinanced regardless of what the markets are doing.

When I graduated in 2000, my loans were set at 8.25%.  In 2002 the Rate for student loans dropped to 2%.  Guess what I've been paying for 12 years.

Couple that with being under/un-employed that whole time and, even while paying I've been forced to capitalize an extra $16K to my loans.

That is a crock.  If I had been able to ReFi to 2% I'd have actually been able to pay down some of the principle... but that's not how the Government set it up.

So, my advice is, don't get married to anyone with a medical condition unless you are earning six figures because there are a lot of self righteous people out there who will sneer at you for your "choices" (should have known better than have the audacity to get married to someone with a chronic, but treatable condition) and not being able to even make the interest payments on your loan.

[Foundit]

I have never considered NOT paying it off, but what pi$$es me off is that the Student Loan Scam is the ONLY debt that cannot be refinanced regardless of what the markets are doing.

Exactly!  The bankers that issue student loans bought protectionist legislation through lobbying.   That legislation did two things:

1. It shifted the lenders' liability and risk to the taxpayers.
2. It removed constitutionally granted bankruptcy protections for citizens.

That led to:

1. The banks eliminating most underwriting criteria and they began making risky loans they would not have done before.
2. The cost of college tuition skyrocketed, due to the added demand for the services made possible for easy college loans.  Many of those students simply dropped out anyways.

Both the banks AND the education establishment bombard students from the earliest ages with the propaganda that they the only way they can succeed in life is by going to college.

And when you combine that brainwashing with no financial education at any level, students don't have a chance.

It's a racket.  And yes, I pay my student loans.  That doesn't make it any less of a racket. 

[jhamilton1769]

Just my 2 cents worth...

Do some serious reading here at the forum.

I am glad I took your advice here.

I have been popping in every once in a while to see what sort of things people were saying regarding my OP. The topic of student debt is personal and therefore emotionally charged for me, and I wanted to resist the self defeating urge to defend myself from criticism without reflection when there might be some wisdom hidden in said criticism.

I have just finished reading "the 11 principles of open source peaceful evolution" as well as the commentary pertaining to said document and am glad I did so before responding. Much of the commentary form this thread touched upon the very moral/philosophical issues I am trying to work through and if I hadn't read this first I certainly would have looked the fool trying to explain concepts in my retorts that most of the posters here are clearly already familiar with. Once again, thanks.

[rhodges]

The topic of student debt is personal and therefore emotionally charged for me, and I wanted to resist the self defeating urge to defend myself from criticism without reflection when there might be some wisdom hidden in said criticism.

No worries. The system lies continuously about how a college degree is necessary. A degree shows obedience. The question becomes "why or where do I need to prove my obedience?"

There is fraud. People lied to you. Where you go is up to you.

[jhamilton1769]

Mea Culpa regarding the multiple posts from myself, I am new to this type of technology. I am a introvert by nature and, generally don't seek out others much, so I had never used it. I had intended to continue down the list of comments after my first reply to mama.

"The man in the mirror" might be better off just taking on this beast and slaying it. 
Brandy

You might be on to something here. First I would have to get over myself though, I am as stubborn as a mule and don't generally respond well to negative reinforcement (force or agression as the FSW forum likes to put it) which is precisely what I feel the government is trying to use with their "do what we say or else stance" regarding my student debt. They would do better to convince me that I actually owe all of the money plus interest and penalties but that would never happen because the politicians think they are human gods capable of commanding blood from a stone. Heck when I wrote to my senators, Kerry and Kennedy since I was still a MA resident attending university at the time, regarding the patriot act and my concerns they didn't even bother to respond with a generic letter from a secretary. I sent a long pleading letter begging them to reconsider signing away more of our liberties and they were deaf to their constituent.

So you've been "defrauded"? How's that exactly?
You borrowed money from the government (taxpayers or China), signed the agreement, and now you have to pay it back?
You were of legal age when you signed? Yes?

I prepared a response to this one but it was probably too long and personal for this forum. It ended up being a 2 page MW doc. and I wasn't even finished. Perhaps the "PM" feature mama mentioned earlier is in order? Not sure exactly what that stands for but I have some inkling its a more direct form of digital communication?

jh - You need to get the hell out of NYC as fast as possible.  That place is a festering cesspool of crony criminals (to call them crony capitalists is to besmirch capitalism).  If you're not on the inside of the graft, you're just so much litter to be swept up and tossed into the trash.

Make up your own mind about the student loan repayments - don't tell anyone else about it and it will be a non-issue.  The more you talk about it the more you open yourself up for criticism.

You don't say what your degree is in.  That's mighty important.  Are you willing to ignore it and go work in an open pit coal mine?  Or wrangle cattle?  Or drive a truck?  If you're going to be picky about how you make money, you shouldn't move here.  Folks in Wyoming generally work hard.  The pay is good, but it's not a 9-5 desk job world.

Fully agree about NYC. Just for all your amusement I have some recent NYC tid bits to share from personal experience:
Most commonly heard phrases I have heard here walking the streets and riding transit are...  regarding government taxes and events in the local trashy newspapers "it is what it is" "what u gonna do" and "My babies daddy" clearly apathy is alive and well.
Most commonly advertised services on mass transit are for non-accredited colleges offering degrees to these same people "even if you don't speak English or have a GED! no problem, for the right price you too can "earn" a degree!

Regarding your question about my degree. I started off as a high school dropout; upon entering college I couldn't have told you what a block quotation was. I earned my associates at a 2yr remedial college in criminology and law. High marks allowed me to transfer to a four year university. Once there I wanted a greater challenge and was pleasantly surprised to learn I was capable of and actually pretty good at math. I was worried about being able to pay back the debt at this point so I asked my guidance councilor what to study to achieve this, we settled on Business Administration which she told me the mean pay for from my school was $50K plus for recent graduates-this was before the "recession". I graduated with honors May 2007 and moved to Brooklyn NY where my fiancée was from. Upon arriving I found that most hiring HR "managers" didn't know my Boston based school, Suffolk University, was not in Suffolk county NY. I was also thrilled to find out that the most common degree being offered by the local non-accredited "schools" was my degree, lucky me! Recently there was an article in the WSJ titled "universities rethink the value of a business degree". As to the type of work I am willing to do, I will do anything honest. My first job was at 13 holding up carpets for an auctioneer. Since then I have always worked up until post college. I have worked on the back of dump trucks, done sheet metal work related to HVAC, shingled and framed houses, hung doors, drove taxi, cooked in restaurants and bars and a few other things in between. My stongest natural talent is cooking, I can recreate most dishes by taste and learning various ethnic dishes has been the one thing I have enjoyed in this city.

As for not telling anyone about my loans, you are right I won't unless solicited and/or one on one. I just didn't want to feel like I was hiding anything as I am proud of my accomplishments. This was my self introduction and I thought not holding back would be a good show of faith in others decency. Also I find it hard not to because in addittion to not being ashamed, I worked damn hard, I think the issue is one that should be addressed as it is the next big industry/bubble that will burst due to government meddling.

[MamaLiberty]

J. - You should be able to send a "PM" - private message - to any of us now - can't remember how many posts required for that, but I think it was 5 or 7.

I do hope you have read as much as possible in the other areas of the forum as well. Lots of information about Wyoming, as well as glimpses into our daily life. Quite a few "introverts" here, but very few of them post to the forum, not surprisingly. You'll have to come meet them.

Anyway, hope you can come out to the annual campout we call the Jamboree. End of June.

[Old Ironsights]

... Quite a few "introverts" here, but very few of them post to the forum, not surprisingly...

I post on the Forums because I'm an introvert. (Clinically, I'm an Aspie and run off the "I" scale on the MBTI.)

I'm not at all comfortable around people, but I can express myself openly on a forum - mainly because "small talk" is not a social requirement here.


http://www.zazzle.com/small_talk_is_verbal_spam_2_mug-168345763019437318?gl=Old_Ironsights&lon=90&rf=238502404168437739

[Old Ironsights]

I have never considered NOT paying it off, but what pi$$es me off is that the Student Loan Scam is the ONLY debt that cannot be refinanced regardless of what the markets are doing.

Exactly!  The bankers that issue student loans bought protectionist legislation through lobbying.   That legislation did two things:

1. It shifted the lenders' liability and risk to the taxpayers.
2. It removed constitutionally granted bankruptcy protections for citizens.

That led to:

1. The banks eliminating most underwriting criteria and they began making risky loans they would not have done before.
2. The cost of college tuition skyrocketed, due to the added demand for the services made possible for easy college loans.  Many of those students simply dropped out anyways.

Both the banks AND the education establishment bombard students from the earliest ages with the propaganda that they the only way they can succeed in life is by going to college.

And when you combine that brainwashing with no financial education at any level, students don't have a chance.

It's a racket.  And yes, I pay my student loans.  That doesn't make it any less of a racket. 

Congress removed bankruptcy protections, refinancing rights, statutes of limitations, truth in lending requirements, fair debt collection practice requirements (for state agencies) and even removed state usury laws from applicability to federally guaranteed student loans. Congress also gave unprecedented powers of collection to the industry, including wage, tax return, Social Security, and Disability income garnishment, suspension of state issued professional licenses, termination from public employment, and other unprecedented collection tools that are used against borrowers for the purpose of collecting defaulted student loan debt.

Concurrently, Congress established a fee system for defaulted loans that allows the holders of defaulted loans to keep 20% of all payments from borrowers before any portion of the payment is applied to principal and interest on the loan.  In the absence of fundamental consumer protectionsthe borrower's only available recourse is to submit to a hugely expensive "loan rehabilitation" process whereby they are forced to make extended payments (which are almost never applied to the principal or interest on the loan), and then sign for a new loan to which additional fees are attached.  This effectively obligates the borrower to a much larger debt than when the loan defaulted, often double, triple, or even more than the original loan amount. 

This leaves the borrower in a far more distressed position than before rehabilitation, and more likely to default again.  There are no other options for the borrower to resolve the debt, regardless of any other factors, including the validity of the default itself (there is no appeals process for challenging determinations of default).

This fee system and associated rehabilitation schemes have provided a massive revenue stream for a shadowy, nationwide network of politically connected guarantors, servicers, and collection companies who have greatly enriched themselves at the expense of misfortunate borrowers, it has caused immeasurable damage to millions of borrowers and their families, who see what started as an unmanageable debt become a financial cataclysm- that debilitates, marginalizes, and ultimately relegates them to a lifetime of financial servitude and despondency in many cases.
Indeed, Sallie Mae's own annual reports provide compelling evidence of dramatic profiteering from defaulted loans: In the 2003 annual report, The Sallie Mae CEO brags to shareholders in the opening remarks that the company's record earnings that year were attributable to collections on defaulted loans. The company's "fee income" increased by 228% between 2000-2005, while their managed loan portfolio grew by only 87% during the same time period.

It is a matter of record that lenders actually defaulted student loans without even attempting to collect on the debt! In 2000, Sallie Mae paid $3.4 million in fines as a result of the U.S. Attorney's office discovering that the company was invoicing for defaulted loans where the borrower was never contacted. Rather, records were fabricated to indicate that the borrower had been contacted. Similar cases were settled with Corus bank and Cybernetic Systems.

There is also some evidence that suggest this tendency to default borrowers is by design rather than a mere result of circumstance.  In 2007, an employee of the Kentucky Higher Education Assistance Authority, KHEAA, contacted StudentLoanJustice.Org by email, and submitted that the agency managers had purposely marketed loans to poor, disadvantaged communities in the expectation that these citizens would default on their loans, thus be "on the hook" for the fees and penalties that would result-extractable through garnishment of the income sources mentioned previously. This  raises serious concerns, as it clearly implicates KHEAA in engaging in predatory lending.  The text of these communications was forwarded to the Department of Education, and it is unknown what, if anything, resulted).

Obviously, collection companies prefer that loans default.  Guarantors clearly share this preference.  That lenders and collection companies also share this financial motivation is sufficient, to characterize the lending system as predatory, since the lending system clearly has both motive and means to act in such a way as to encourage default, rather than being motivated to act in a way that avoids default.   

An unbiased observer should rightly object here, and point out that there is governmental oversight that should prevent this sort of activity.  After all, at the end of the day, these defaults must certainly be a drain on the taxpayer...right?   

Wrong.  It was reported in January 2004 by John Hechinger (WSJ) that for every dollar paid out in default claims, the Department of Education would recover every dollar in principal, plus almost 20% in interest and fees.  Further, supplemental materials in the president's 2010 budget show a recovery rate for defaulted FFELP loans of about 122 %.  This is the amount recovered compared to the amount of the loan at the time of default.  Compare this recovery rate to that for defaulted credit cards, which is usually about 25 cents on the dollar, and one can see that defaulted loans are clearly not costing the Department of Education money.  In fact, simple, comparative analysis shows clearly that the reverse is indeed the case.  In other words: The Department of Education is making more money on defaulted loans than loans which remain in good stead.

Therefore, all entities involved: The lenders, the guarantors, the collection companies, and even the Department of Education  and its agents have a financial incentive for student loans to default...and this all is a direct result of the lack of consumer protections and the draconian collection powers that exists uniquely for federal student loans as described above.

http://studentloanjustice.org/argument.htm